More Paladin-centered shields needed to close the gap with Aegis & Ochain

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Originally Posted by Traxus

The increased block rate from reprisal dissipates after blocking a certain number of hits, adamas sucks.

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That's not how it works.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Reprisal

With the effect of Reprisal up Adamas has the same block rate as OChain, near 100%. Reprisal will reflect part of the damage you take, each time that damage is then deducted from a buffer. The ability wears off after 60s or when the buffer is depleted, it's very similar to Dread Spikes. The buffer is equal to half your max HP at cast time, 1800 HP = 900 damage buffer. Essentially Adamas can turn into O.Chain for short periods of time. It's absolutely critical to have as much haste and FC as possible in your reprisal macro, you want the recast to be low.

I've messed around with it, it's a nice shield. Definitely not in the same class as Aegis / OChain, but it's the #3 shield after those two.

It seems so far that the only "argument" against there being new powerful shields added is that PLD would no longer be an exclusive club for Aegis/Ochain owners only. I'd say that's a good argument FOR adding more options, but I guess I'm biased since I'm not a member of the club.

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Originally Posted by KindCoffee

A neat magic to hold constant hate on single target or knock-back upon use might be neat.

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Yes, give us Ark Angel EV's Shield Bash.

Hell, just give us Ark Angel EV's Spirits Within.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I built a Delve weapon for sam using an auction house GK. Try doing that on paladin.

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Maybe it's because Valefor is low-pop but I see poorly geared pld's in Delve regularly (Don't take that as "No Aegis / Ochain makes them poorly geared.". I see pld's in a dd sword, 5/5 creed +1/+2, 2% dark rings). With those paladins, it usually means I'm tanking 2 NM's.

Now, the delve runs you went to. I'm sure that your sam was rejected soemtimes/several times because you weren't REMd. Either that, or you went with an ls.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

It seems so far that the only "argument" against there being new powerful shields added is that PLD would no longer be an exclusive club for Aegis/Ochain owners only. I'd say that's a good argument FOR adding more options, but I guess I'm biased since I'm not a member of the club.

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It seems so far that the only case for why PLD is broken is people who want the reward without the work, but I guess I'm biased since I put the effort in.

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Originally Posted by saevel

That's not how it works.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Reprisal

With the effect of Reprisal up Adamas has the same block rate as OChain, near 100%. Reprisal will reflect part of the damage you take, each time that damage is then deducted from a buffer. The ability wears off after 60s or when the buffer is depleted, it's very similar to Dread Spikes. The buffer is equal to half your max HP at cast time, 1800 HP = 900 damage buffer. Essentially Adamas can turn into O.Chain for short periods of time. It's absolutely critical to have as much haste and FC as possible in your reprisal macro, you want the recast to be low.

I've messed around with it, it's a nice shield. Definitely not in the same class as Aegis / OChain, but it's the #3 shield after those two.

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Interesting :)

Should try it /sch with supertanking. That and defense food (for lacking defender, and because food's good) might allow you near 100% uptime. Reprisal does no damage when it blocks a tp move, as we all know, so the buffer is probably not affected. (I am aware that reprisal's spikes, eating at the buffer, aren't affected by phalanx, stoneskin, etc, but defense is still a factor).

I've seen a PLD tank 3 NM's in delve with a Steadfast Shield. It was a little more stressful on the WHM, but still manageable.

However, the Ochain/Aegis only shouts aren't the fault of game mechanics or SE's decision, it's the PLD playerbase that created that standard. You normally only see 1, maybe 2 PLD's tops in a fracture group. Even if this gap was lessened by shields like Steadfast or Adamas, you're not going to get invited over someone else who did the work.

A quick check on the relic counter for ffxiah says that Aegis is still the most common relic in the game, even despite PLD's falling out during abyssea/VW and the rise of bandwagnarok. There's plenty of them out there, either join the club or have fun competing for the only slot in an alliance and hoping that no career PLDs feel like doing fracture today.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

It seems so far that the only case for why PLD is broken is people who want the reward without the work, but I guess I'm biased since I put the effort in.

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So, what do you want? A medal?

People's egos really need to be checked in this game. This focus on catering--dare I say pandering--to those who believe in exclusivism is going to lead to this game being shut down sooner than the developers ever thought.

I don't believe in exclusivism.

I believe that you can easily go get an aegis. Easily.

Ochain is a little bit harder but only because it takes mroe time and the enemy actually has a chance to kill you.

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Originally Posted by Aeonk

However, the Ochain/Aegis only shouts aren't the fault of game mechanics or SE's decision, it's the PLD playerbase that created that standard.

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I both agree and disagree with this statement.

This whole situation is caused by the player's mentality on how they're going to run content. I just think this mentality is way more prevalent in the game nowadays because of how high the bar has been set with delve. Dispite being nice, players aren't going to take anything but top gear players because of how tough the NMs are. Why would you want to risk your time and that of an entire alliance when taking people with better gear greatly increases your chance of winning.

I don't agree with the mentality but I see why it's there.

I just think the problem is here because of a few things. For KI farming it lies in the fact that they've placed this asinine time restriction on the NMs in the field. If the fights weren't capped with a time limit, parties would be more willing to take lesser geared players. It would take longer, yes, but the fights could be done.

I also think that they've progressed the gear teirs with way too much way to fast. They should have released reives and sat on that for a few months before releasing skirmish. They then should have let skirmish stay relevant for at least a few months before releasing delve.

Instead they rushed all this content out together. As much as they want it to happen players, aren't going to want to grind out reives to grind out skirmish to grind out delve. They're going to do what we're seeing now. They're going to get the best possibly geared players they can and grind out the most rewarding content the game has, and ignore everything else.

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I don't agree with the mentality but I see why it's there.

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I see this sentiment a lot.. You want your delves to be slower. You want to have to do more delves? I've never met a single person that wants things to be slower.

It's kind of what you're implying talking down on this "player mentality".

I don't like Delve fodder-farming. In no way is it fun, especially on pld, but I do it. So yeah, just as much as they hope I'm not gonna let the NM's loose or screw up supertanking, I hope the DD are pulling off 9000 point ws's. Get that stuff dead, please.

There are places to have fun in the game, but fodder-farming just needs to be over and quick.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

I see this sentiment a lot.. You want your delves to be slower. You want to have to do more delves? I've never met a single person that wants things to be slower.

It's kind of what you're implying talking down on this "player mentality".

I don't like Delve fodder-farming. In no way is it fun, especially on pld, but I do it. So yeah, just as much as they hope I'm not gonna let the NM's loose or screw up supertanking, I hope the DD are pulling off 9000 point ws's. Get that stuff dead, please.

There are places to have fun in the game, but fodder-farming just needs to be over and quick.

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This. So much this.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

I see this sentiment a lot.. You want your delves to be slower. You want to have to do more delves? I've never met a single person that wants things to be slower.

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/wave

If you see the sentiment a lot then it means you have met people like this. I'm willing to put up with doing things slower if it means helping out other people. I've done 3k plasm ceizak farms b/c I had friends there and they needed dd's. I've run nyzul isle top to bottom about 12x now b/c ls members need the climb. Not everyone cares about doing things as fast as possible, but with the way things are set up you can't win by being nice. There's not much of a choice.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Maybe it's because Valefor is low-pop but I see poorly geared pld's in Delve regularly (Don't take that as "No Aegis / Ochain makes them poorly geared.". I see pld's in a dd sword, 5/5 creed +1/+2, 2% dark rings). With those paladins, it usually means I'm tanking 2 NM's.

Now, the delve runs you went to. I'm sure that your sam was rejected soemtimes/several times because you weren't REMd. Either that, or you went with an ls.

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Most of the Fracture runs I've been on have only had one paladin. I've never been on / seen shouts for a single run where the PAL didn't have one of these two shields.

On the otherhand, I have been on tons of them where there were magian trial Sams spamming shoha, Drks in full reive gear (including the GS) and wars with AH GA's spamming upheaval.

The only time you need uber DDS in fractures is when you are killing the NMs. On farming runs, a lot of time the DDs are just standing around waiting on repops.

On the other hand, if the paladin isn't uber geared (Read as : doesn't have relic/empy shield), you will spend a lot of time dodging the NMs that killed him.

In other words: PAL is required to sport one of the most annoying items in the game to get just to be invited while DD's can rock AH weapons and get in groups all day. Starting your own group just means that you will have to shout for some other guy that has the shield to come with you.

No, I see the sentiment on the forums. I've never seen someone in game wish that others in the group brought subpar jobs. People try to bring their own, and their friends, sometimes, but they never try to pug someone subpar.

/yell {Seekers of Adoulin} {Dungeon} {Do you need it?} {Light Staff} {White mage} {Thockcha} {Dancer} {Can I have it?}

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

No, I see the sentiment on the forums. I've never seen someone in game wish that others in the group brought subpar jobs. People try to bring their own, and their friends, sometimes, but they never try to pug someone subpar.

/yell {Seekers of Adoulin} {Dungeon} {Do you need it?} {Light Staff} {White mage} {Thockcha} {Dancer} {Can I have it?}

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Of course not. They just shout for a whm and take whatever they get. Literally. I actually went on a run where the guy was looking for a whm and asked me if I could change to whm. I told him that I had only been back in game for a couple of weeks, hadn't played whm in over a year and most of my macros probably didn't work. He said just make sure the cure ones work and come along. I did three runs with my AH geared whm with a 35% cure set.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Most of the Fracture runs I've been on have only had one paladin. I've never been on / seen shouts for a single run where the PAL didn't have one of these two shields.

On the otherhand, I have been on tons of them where there were magian trial Sams spamming shoha, Drks in full reive gear (including the GS) and wars with AH GA's spamming upheaval.

The only time you need uber DDS in fractures is when you are killing the NMs. On farming runs, a lot of time the DDs are just standing around waiting on repops.

On the other hand, if the paladin isn't uber geared (Read as : doesn't have relic/empy shield), you will spend a lot of time dodging the NMs that killed him.

In other words: PAL is required to sport one of the most annoying items in the game to get just to be invited while DD's can rock AH weapons and get in groups all day. Starting your own group just means that you will have to shout for some other guy that has the shield to come with you.

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Any geared PLD can tank 2 NMs with Adamas or Steadfast. Holding all 5 NMs requires Ochain/Aegis.

The real issue is most PLDs without Ochain or Aegis are utter crap. (and most with are as well but the shields cover up their terrible play)

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Originally Posted by Taint2

The real issue is most PLDs without Ochain or Aegis are utter crap. (and most with are as well but the shields cover up their terrible play)

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I really have to agree here. I don't even believe this quote is elitist.

What I believe in is that PLD is a job that requires a lot more care and attention than other jobs. Is it tragic that the playerbase, content or whatever you choose to blame is requiring Aegis and Ochain? Sure. However, if you're really serious about a job, you'll be working towards the best in slot item that you can get, and even then, it doesn't fully make up for a lack of skill. If you don't have the shields (or aren't working on them and want to play PLD), then you can only expect to go so far.

This can be said for any job you want to main. Most PLDs don't play PLD as a fun little side job. I'd bet a vast majority of them play PLD because they WANT to play PLD, to make it their main and something that can kick ass. These are the players you see with Aegis/Ochain. You also have the players that DO level it as a side job, but these players aren't likely to work on either shield, mostly because PLD isn't a priority for them.

So you have two types of PLD where one group want to be THE PLD and work on those shields, and the other group which are side PLDs that don't really care to take it that far. I'm not saying the side PLDs should get the shaft, but neither should the PLDs that choose to put in the work to be the best at their job.

That being said, there are PLDs with Aegis/Ochain that STILL can't perform well enough, despite having them. The shields are an augment to good players and a crutch to poor ones.

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Originally Posted by Karah

Incorrect, you can mule attestations.

http://i41.tinypic.com/vi1fgk.png

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Oh, that's great! So a level 1 CAN make a relic without touching dynamis....


As long as you have a 65+ second character? lol

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Originally Posted by Taint2

Any geared PLD can tank 2 NMs with Adamas or Steadfast. Holding all 5 NMs requires Ochain/Aegis.

The real issue is most PLDs without Ochain or Aegis are utter crap. (and most with are as well but the shields cover up their terrible play)

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Any time that you make a certain job a requirement to do content like a tank or a healer and then have 20 other jobs that are completely interchangeable like FFXI does, there is a high likelihood that most of the people who play those required jobs do so only because they have to. So I agree. There's a pretty good chance that most paladins in general are crap.

I'm just saying that there should be a little more middle ground between the people who spent months on BST in dynamis or nin in abyssea and the people who didn't.

Too bad Adamas is probably harder to get than Ochain anyway.

Harder, yes, more time taking, no.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

It seems so far that the only case for why PLD is broken is people who want the reward without the work, but I guess I'm biased since I put the effort in.

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So what's the big deal if you have to make a new shield or the door is opened up to more people being able to play the job effectively? I don't see as you have anything to worry about since you're apparently The Man.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

It seems so far that the only case for why PLD is broken is people who want the reward without the work, but I guess I'm biased since I put the effort in.

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That is an unfair statement, no one is asking for SE to give them Ochain or Aegis for free, rather they are asking for other shields to be stronger so the gap can be smaller between a normal shield and these two shields. No one is asking for them to hand us the best shields, but to make other shields suck less so that they are more comparable, no one can deny that A&O are so far above other shields that they eclipse them, and while RMED weapons may be better, they are not nearly this much better than their non-RMED counterparts.

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Harder, yes, more time taking, no.

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I don't know if I'd even agree with that, to be honest. It was never easy/fun setting up a Provenance group and I bet it's way worse nowadays. On top of that, you're still dealing with lolvoidwatch drop rates.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

That is an unfair statement, no one is asking for SE to give them Ochain or Aegis for free, rather they are asking for other shields to be stronger so the gap can be smaller between a normal shield and these two shields. No one is asking for them to hand us the best shields, but to make other shields suck less so that they are more comparable, no one can deny that A&O are so far above other shields that they eclipse them, and while RMED weapons may be better, they are not nearly this much better than their non-RMED counterparts.

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I don't think you're asking for Ochain or Aegis to be given to you. I do think some people are. There are always people in this game that want the reward without the effort. Those are the people that buy gil, or earn it right, and buy their way through trials.

There's nothing wrong with buying your way through a trial. It's your gil, and the seller's time. If they aren't complaining, noone has a right to but Ochain just happens to be more annoying to buy your way through.

I was also making a deliberately broad and biased statement in reply to an equal statement of the opposite position, but that was made obvious.

I haven't seen anyone ask for Ochain, Aegis, or even an equivalent to be given away. As Demon said, people are just asking for an enormous gaping hole to be filled.

Although if the shields were completely outclassed by the Delve shield they would only be in the same spot as every other R/M/E except Instruments. Anyone serious about PLD would earn and fully upgrade the Delve shield, and that's not a freebie. Even if you consider it a freebie, it's still just like all the weapons sans Instruments. I really don't see that PLDs would have any room to complain when everyone else with a R/M/E is going through the same thing.

No choice but to agree with that point. At least one of the +1s is me.

That is definitely where they were going to take the game until the uprising.

Now, RME's dmg is being buffed and the aftermath will again place them on top. From there, SE seems a little unclear but I interperet it as RME are being buffed one time to treat the shock players experienced, and the WS's/aftermaths will move to the other weapons (they said that directly).

However, as others have said, it's unclear how they'd make a shied more powerful than Aegis or Ochain.

Aegis 99 and 95 are literally too powerful. They break the MDT cap and take you to the absolute cap (if you have gear to supplement it, doesn't take much and then there's MDT left over. Granted, this means you can and should fill in other slots with other stats (unless you expect to not have Shell most of the fight and that aspect to be a great issue).

Aegis 99 should have been 40% and 95 35%, speaking as a 95 aegis myself.

Ochain is a powerful shield, it's not technically overpowered, it's just nearly necessary. Paladin isn't that powerful without it.

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Noone here has said "Give me aegis and ochain" but several of the people here are crossposting the same points to other threads, like the VNM upgrade thread. Clearly, they want the shield, they just don't want to put in the work.

It's there, it's obtainable with no more than 2-3 people, and it doesn't take that long if you just set yourself to doing it. Mountains look a lot bigger from the bottom.

Truth be told, I think the problem, isn't the shields themselves, well Aegis is in a category of it's own.

But, the only (obviously) thing that make Ochain so absurdly powerful compared to ALL other shields is paladins (and really all jobs with defensive capabilities) failing at blocking.

Really, if you have a shield, when are you -NOT- going to block with it, ever? However, you can't just give all shields (and parry and guard) a flat increase in activation, at least not by a large %. But that seems to be the only real solution.

A complete re-tool of the way that defensive mechanisms work, not the shields themselves. Can anyone really argue otherwise? There are actually BETTER shields than Ochain, if they had the same or even 90% blockrate.

As for Aegis, I really can't see much in the way of changing or adjusting anything to match it, it truly is a unique piece, and a staple in the pld arsenal.

Only way to bring a shield near Aegis or anything close is to allow another piece to break the cap, or flat out give PLD a higher cap in general so you can stack more on it which would make Aegis have a lesser effect.

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Originally Posted by Karah

Truth be told, I think the problem, isn't the shields themselves, well Aegis is in a category of it's own.

But, the only (obviously) thing that make Ochain so absurdly powerful compared to ALL other shields is paladins (and really all jobs with defensive capabilities) failing at blocking.

Really, if you have a shield, when are you -NOT- going to block with it, ever? However, you can't just give all shields (and parry and guard) a flat increase in activation, at least not by a large %. But that seems to be the only real solution.

A complete re-tool of the way that defensive mechanisms work, not the shields themselves. Can anyone really argue otherwise? There are actually BETTER shields than Ochain, if they had the same or even 90% blockrate.

As for Aegis, I really can't see much in the way of changing or adjusting anything to match it, it truly is a unique piece, and a staple in the pld arsenal.

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I've been mulling over this for quite some time. Shield mechanics as a whole are questionable, not even looking into how shields factor in overall survivability. That's why I said the system seems to be designed around Aegis/Ochain being the best.

I'd personally scrap everything about shields. Size differences and the can of worms that opened, defense values as we know them and so on.

Add shield block rating to determine activation rate regardless of "size" (scaling with something like STR or AGI), with "size" only determining the threshold of damage that is blocked. Player characters gaining an amount of -DT just from equipping the shield would also help with making shields not seem like a waste of a slot for anyone without A skill in shields.

Either way, I agree that defensive mechanics have been odd for a long time.

PLD could stand for some stances, like hasso/seigan yonin/innin (even berserk/defender). I don't think my paladin needs to be more powerful, but a defensive stance that was independent of caps would be a buff to other paladins.

Berserk and Defender aren't technically stances, but they're my favorite, because even hard mobs I can keep defender up, pop berserk (normalizing my attack/defense), ws, and cancel berserk, if I feel like my life is really in danger. I like that they stack so that this can be done.

In 75 days, there was also merit to popping JA's and canceling them--just the use of the ability generated sizable enmity.

Suppose, just for numbers, pld had a -10% damage taken stance that could break PDT and MDT cap, and was additive. A paladin in -50% dt gear takes -60% in this stance. A paladin in -5%, takes -15%.

Conversely, something I've long desired, is a DD stance for paladin. It would be fine if this was like nin's stances and overwrote each other but shared a cooldown.

Perhaps the stances shouldn't break caps, maybe they should just be a trait of the job so that a paladin needs only -40% to hit pdt cap and 13% to hit natural mdt cap. This is probably more fair. It doesn't do anything really for a DT capped paladin but is a boost to others.

Stalwart Shield - Raises blocking by (mulplicative?) 10% (Places where an Ochain isn't block capping, it still wouldn't be) and reduces damage taken by 10%. Does not (does?) affect damage reduction limits.
Blade First - Blocking is lowered by 10%, but ... something something... double attack... ja haste? Idk. lol.

If it broke damage caps, such an ability would hamper the value of Aegis slightly, unless you couldn't keep shell up, but that's not common. By hampering Aegis' value, Ochain's would naturally be increased.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I've been mulling over this for quite some time. Shield mechanics as a whole are questionable, not even looking into how shields factor in overall survivability. That's why I said the system seems to be designed around Aegis/Ochain being the best.

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During a previous incarnation of this thread (and let's face it: this comes up every few months or so), I voiced my opinion that size 4 shields should become something other than arm decoration. I think it's kind of ridiculous that the job with the highest shield skill in the game, wearing one of the most job-exclusive shields in the game (they're typically PLD and DRK only), is actually a step backwards from equipping a shield accessible to WAR or even RDM.

You want to talk about the gaping hole between R/E and everything else? Hole, thy name is tower shields.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

During a previous incarnation of this thread (and let's face it: this comes up every few months or so), I voiced my opinion that size 4 shields should become something other than arm decoration. I think it's kind of ridiculous that the job with the highest shield skill in the game, wearing one of the most job-exclusive shields in the game (they're typically PLD and DRK only), is actually a step backwards from equipping a shield accessible to WAR or even RDM.

You want to talk about the gaping hole between R/E and everything else? Hole, thy name is tower shields.

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I agree, but more because it pertains to the lopsided design for shield mechanics. I get that they wanted to simulate real-life shield wielding when they created the system based on shield sizes, but as you said, it in effect relegated one entire category of shields to being decorations. I belie it is also part of why Aegis was so good at 75. Fully milked the shield size system with none of the drawbacks suffered by anything bigger than kite shields.

The reason Ochain and Aegis are so much better in general when it comes to blocking is because of the way shields work besides them basically.

Rate Reduction
Buckler 4 1
Round 3 2
Kite 2 3
Tower 1 4
Aegis 4 3
Ochain 5 5

Easiest way of showing it. Tower is pointless because it blocks a ton of damage, but never blocks, same with bucklers, round shields are ok but Kites are the shields that excel outside of Aegis/Ochain because they have the best balance. Aegis and Ochain on the other hand do not have the flaw that others do, where increased block rate means reduced reduction, or vice versa. If they fixed shields to be more balanced in that respect it would help too. Tower for instance is so exclusive to PLD and DRK that they should have a better block rate block rate. If their effect was more tied to the jobs that can use them rather than simply low blocking on bigger shields, it would be fine, or if PLD got some trait to make Tower shields suck less.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Tower is pointless because it blocks a ton of damage, but never blocks, same with bucklers, round shields are ok but Kites are the shields that excel outside of Aegis/Ochain because they have the best balance. Aegis and Ochain on the other hand do not have the flaw that others do, where increased block rate means reduced reduction, or vice versa. If they fixed shields to be more balanced in that respect it would help too. Tower for instance is so exclusive to PLD and DRK that they should have a better block rate. If their effect was more tied to the jobs that can use them rather than simply low blocking on bigger shields, it would be fine, or if PLD got some trait to make Tower shields suck less.

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I agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Karah

A complete re-tool of the way that defensive mechanisms work,

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This and extend the rework to parrying and evasion and guard, that stuff gets so useless so fast it's appalling.

2 of the 3 Delve bosses are now being killed without PLDs.

PLD will be useless again once the a shark strategy is found.

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Originally Posted by Taint2

2 of the 3 Delve bosses are now being killed without PLDs.

PLD will be useless again once the a shark strategy is found.

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All that does is scream volumes about PLD's design. >.>

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Originally Posted by Duelle

All that does is scream volumes about PLD's design. >.>

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Really I would say its the games design in general. As said before, it either hits so hard you need an amazing PLD, or its so weak your DDs can tank it, very little room between. Look at legion mobs though, they used to hit very hard, so hard in fact it nearly killed everyone in 1 hit, what did we do? PD or stun lock it, so it could not hurt us. Tanking in this game simply is broken, DDs can tank, if they cant, you bring support so that you can stop it from attacking completely, very few times is PLD an option without being a drag on resources. The only way PLD would truly work is if something hit so hard that literally no DD could survive more than a single hit from it even in capped out PDT & Defense gear, so no matter what it is impossible for a DD to really tank, then a PLD would have to be able to survive against this exact same kind of attack with quite a bit of HP left. Even then, becomes nothing more than curing the PLD while DDs beat away, or run in to WS. Without things being that way, we will always find a way around using a real tank, and instead favor just another DD in their spot to kill quicker, especially when events are so cramped for time like Delve is, where you have only 45 minutes inside to kill 2 NMs and make it to the 3rd, or 20 minutes to kill NMs outside.

PLD isn't really useful for fighting Delve NMs, for the same reasons we didn't really use them for fighting anything else (like in Voidwatch; if you wanted someone to have Shield Bash you just made a BRD sub /PLD). The hate system just doesn't allow for PLD to keep hate, and even if it could, most of the toughest mobs will just AoE your frontline to death anyway, making having a tank pointless.

PLD is currently used for *holding* NMs in fracture, not fighting them. So yeah, the fact that they aren't being used for boss runs (where the goal is to kill all of the NMs, not hold them) should come as a surprise to nobody. I've honestly never been sure why people bother bringing PLDs for things like field NMs; they just seem like wastes of an alliance slot tbh.