Suggestion: Break the game, SE

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Any good shell has one of these already. And people who are abusd by LS leaders should question the research they did before choosing to join that shell.

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It doesn't always work that way, dear. A previously good shell can go south for any number of reasons.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

It doesn't always work that way, dear. A previously good shell can go south for any number of reasons.

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We are talking in vague hypotheticals, but a shell abusing its members typically means there was a flaw in the rules used to set up the shell.

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Originally Posted by Shipp

You know, this is the exact same mindset of WoW players. Look how many subs dropped after Cata turned the game into easy-mode. Also, BC was a challenging expansion which most players actually did NOT raid, only the elites. I don't know where you're coming up with your info, but you're sorely mistaken and misrepresenting the facts. Blizzard has even stated that Cata's raids were easier because only a small portion of the playerbase had been raiding from Vanilla through WoTLK.

You are trying to bring a Cata-style revamp into XI, and Cata is the entire reason why I came back to XI. It's trash in terms of endgame. If you want easy events where you get the best gear, go play any other MMO, don't try to turn one of the last MMOs into that.

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LMAO you got that ALL WRONG. Cata did the complete opposite of easy mode, the only thing easy in Cata was leveling. Cata's raids were INTENSE when they were released and the heroic modes still are. The difficulty INCREASE in Cata is what drove alot of people away.

Most players didnt raid in BC?? I guess all those Kara/Gruul/Mag/SSC/TK pugs didnt exist. You MUST be referring to the last raid of the expansion, The Sunwell, because all the raids aside from Black Temple and the Sunwell were quite easy even for casuals.

And again, Cata raids were easier? I'm pretty sure you're talking about WotLK. Wrath had the highest amount of raiders at any point of WoW's life. Mainly because, it was so easy to just gear up and jump in and on normal mode it was a complete faceroll. Cata had roadblocks just in heroic dungeons not even counting normal raids...try again.

Most of the people on these forums despise WoW and have no idea what you're talking about, but I do. I'm usually not a person that picks apart posts but this just disturbed me with the amount of misinformation in it. PLEASE get YOUR FACTS straight.

(Disclaimer: I'm not attacking you, I'm just attacking your "information". So don't take offense and attempt to use personal attacks like so many others do.)

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Erm, if you're gonna mention WoW, at least get the facts right. The majority of the subcriptioin dip was because Cataclysm made dungeons and raid content much harder at the entry level than they were back in Wrath of the Lich King. This in effect meant tanks and healers became super picky over who they wanted to run with, which made pugging really difficult. Combine that with the fact that PvP was an utter mess for 2/3 of the expansion and there's your answer. It wasn't until gearing and content as a whole was made more accessible that people started coming back (AKA 3.3 between the Hour of Twilight dungeons, Fall of deathwing AND raid finder).

In short, when the expansion launched they went back to a design model where people were basically bashing their head against a wall in trying to kill things in dungeons and it pissed a lot of people off. It diluted the tank and healer pool because you had less people wanting to take up those roles due to how much more difficult content was, and PvP was a mess because of several class changes for most of the expansion. You can tell it was bad when Blizzard chose to cut an entire tier of content just to wrap up Cataclysm as soon as possible and move on to whatever is next.

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You beat me to it, it seems lmao. You were just a bit gentler than I was :3

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Originally Posted by Aquilla

There's a lot of poo-flinging that goes on around here. However, there's also a ton of great suggestions that often go unanswered.

I'll grant that, over the years, most people change tastes. There's no going back, and no amount of rose-colored nostalgia is going to recreate an experience. I'm not asking to go back to the days of 2k/hr dunes parties.

I'm saying that the game needs to be broken.

FFXI has gone threadbare. Yeah, people play for friends -- but it's getting to be a lonely journey as the populace inevitably shrinks.

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Yes, One idea I have is: Every full moon, let everyone receive +50 on every stats, 20% movement speed and 20% haste to their normal actions! That's because the freaks come out and aggro! The MPK patch is lifted and Goblin Smithy has a taste for Whms! :P

I have more creative juices than that:
Let's go crazy! When the moon is RED, it's PVP night everywhere, where there's no musical tracks, primarily the ballista zones... Forget that- make it every zone!

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Originally Posted by Aquilla

SE, your recent additions and updates keep proving to your players that you don't know where the game's true potential lies.

Yeah, people, in general, will always whine. Aby broke the game, and it was fun. A blm could go oneshot a mob. A monk could go /war and solo VTs without stopping. Just about any job, no matter how well or poorly geared, could go in and get something done. It was fun.

To put it simply: exciting announcement right now is not a spiky red body piece with a tiny bit of str/dex and crit hit+. Multiply those stats by ten, and it'd be exciting.

Exciting won't be a raise spell that reduces my weakness time by 2 minutes, that will be 'extremely difficult to obtain'. Exciting would be making raise instacast, giving whms full-life.

Flying chocobos would be exciting. Adding the ability to call your personal chocobo in every outdoor area in the game, past/northlands included, would be exciting.

Minor upgrades/sidegrades/downgrades aren't exciting. They aren't upsetting. They're completely apathy-inducing. Break the game, SE. I realize that players of games don't make the best developers, but the players overall seem to be saying that they do not want any more piddly half-steps in a meandering way.

You've got a decent bit of nostalgia left. Unfortunately, that currency is wearing thin. One by one, your players will leave, unless you shake the game up, unless you make it alive again.

that is all.

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I don't think the DEV team are really enjoying their job along side FFxi anymore... I think they lost their fire. There's probably people there who never played/ enjoyed any FF game or played it just enough and said "meh"...



I'm probably sure if they work with potential fans that grew up with the game, a lot more sense will come out in future updates.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Erm, if you're gonna mention WoW, at least get the facts right. The majority of the subcriptioin dip was because Cataclysm made dungeons and raid content much harder at the entry level than they were back in Wrath of the Lich King. This in effect meant tanks and healers became super picky over who they wanted to run with, which made pugging really difficult. Combine that with the fact that PvP was an utter mess for 2/3 of the expansion and there's your answer. It wasn't until gearing and content as a whole was made more accessible that people started coming back (AKA 3.3 between the Hour of Twilight dungeons, Fall of deathwing AND raid finder).

In short, when the expansion launched they went back to a design model where people were basically bashing their head against a wall in trying to kill things in dungeons and it pissed a lot of people off. It diluted the tank and healer pool because you had less people wanting to take up those roles due to how much more difficult content was, and PvP was a mess because of several class changes for most of the expansion. You can tell it was bad when Blizzard chose to cut an entire tier of content just to wrap up Cataclysm as soon as possible and move on to whatever is next.

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Oh wait, which quarter was it that WoW started gaining subs back? Oh right, it hasn't. PvP has always been a mess in WoW, that's nothing new. In Vanilla people complained about Rogues. In BC people complained about Locks. In WoTLK, it was DKs and Pallies. In Cata, it has been mages.

Dungeons have been easy long prior to 3.3 HoT dungeons. Even the Zul dungeons were faceroll easy by last summer. Instances weren't more difficult, you just couldn't AoE everything down without CC from the beginning of the expansion. WoTLK was the exact same way when it was launched, but people sat in ICC gear for nearly a year before new content, so they got used to just AoE gunning instances.

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It also needs to make the content to match. Low drop rates are not challenge, and never have been. Faffy was never a challenge to kill - in fact, it was a joke, doable with six people who knew which end of the pointy weapon went into the mob.

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Let me guess, you started in ToAU?

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I was more annoyed at the person I quoted suggesting that tuning things down and making stuff accessible drives people away, when both this game and WoW have proven the exact opposite.

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I didn't say tweaking drop rates or making things more accessible turns people away. I said "breaking the game" as Aquilla wants to say, which is just a nice way of saying, "Let me godmode," turns people away from MMOs. I have no problem with drop rates being increased. None. Never been against that. What I am against is wanting Abyssea type buffs all the time, outside of Abyssea, while you're just strolling along the dunes.

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Originally Posted by Zeratoangel

LMAO you got that ALL WRONG. Cata did the complete opposite of easy mode, the only thing easy in Cata was leveling. Cata's raids were INTENSE when they were released and the heroic modes still are. The difficulty INCREASE in Cata is what drove alot of people away.

Most players didnt raid in BC?? I guess all those Kara/Gruul/Mag/SSC/TK pugs didnt exist. You MUST be referring to the last raid of the expansion, The Sunwell, because all the raids aside from Black Temple and the Sunwell were quite easy even for casuals.

And again, Cata raids were easier? I'm pretty sure you're talking about WotLK. Wrath had the highest amount of raiders at any point of WoW's life. Mainly because, it was so easy to just gear up and jump in and on normal mode it was a complete faceroll. Cata had roadblocks just in heroic dungeons not even counting normal raids...try again.

Most of the people on these forums despise WoW and have no idea what you're talking about, but I do. I'm usually not a person that picks apart posts but this just disturbed me with the amount of misinformation in it. PLEASE get YOUR FACTS straight.

(Disclaimer: I'm not attacking you, I'm just attacking your "information". So don't take offense and attempt to use personal attacks like so many others do.)

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I never said Cata raids were easy at launch. I said look at sub numbers since Blizzard made them easy, and I'm sorry, but if you still have problems with any of Cata's raids at this point, I don't know what to say. Aquilla's whole argument is that breaking the game and making it easy (when she argues that stuff is already easy, baffling, I know) will bring in new subs, it'll revive the game, etc. After Blizzard nerfed the hell out of Cata dungeons and raids, have you kept up with subs? They're still dropping.

I've played WoW since '06, I don't hate the game, I just don't like what it has become. I have no reason to make up stuff about WoW. Currently, the game is face-roll easy. It has been since about summer. A lot of the raids were padded with artificial difficulty, much like AV in FFXI. He wasn't difficult, it's the, "Oh crap instant death everywhere for being unlucky," mechanics that inflated his difficulty. Blizzard tried the same type of thing in Cata, and I hated it there too. I agree that those mechanics are not challenging, just annoying, however Blizzard has severely dumbed down the game that requires a skill level lower than WoTLK did... yet subs still keep a'droppin'. Thus my point, "breaking the game" and allowing us to godmode is not the answer.

That doesn't mean I'm 100% happy with everything. That doesn't mean I don't think drop rates should be increased. That doesn't mean I don't think certain fights should be tweaked. It means that allowing us to godmode around Vana'diel is not the answer.

Aquilla thinks that SE needs to break the game because pussyfooting pisses people off without making anyone happy. I've never heard anyone tell me 'Wow, I'm really happy that heavy metals only drop off VW and I won't finish my Empy weapon this year. Altana knows that if I did, I'd up an' quit the game right off.' or 'Wow, I'm so glad Arise is going to be super-rare. If this was something we could buy off a npc, I'd up and quit. Five minute weakness is sacred'.

Aquilla's also been playing the game since before CoP came out. Aquilla thinks talking in third person's pretty effing weird, so that ends now. Faffy *was* a joke at lv. 75. Faffy was killed by 6-man parties at lv75. Even if that particular NM with its spike flail and breathiness was somewhat unique, killing it every day for months would make even the biggest idiots in vana'diel experts.

Low drop rates are not a challenge. SE needs to understand this. I'm sorry that we gotta disagree on this taru, because I like summoners a lot, but they aren't. Perhaps taru needs to train Shiva to fetch him coffees in the morning. It'd make him a whole lot more personable and less likely to run off to the forums tryin' to argue for the sake of arguing.

Waiting for a NM to spawn for 3 hours also isn't a challenge -- but thankfully SE hasn't decided to go back to that particular mode of 'hard'.

I also never said I want godmode. If you think getting stats+50 on end-game gear is godmode, you've been whipped pretty darn hard by SE.

I came to this realization fairly recently, actually. See, I zone into Aby, get all the wonderful aby buffs, and I can go around the zone killing regular mobs relatively quickly, tanking NMs for my friends, and man, it was fun. I zone out of aby, and lv99 is the same as lv75 -- I don't feel any more powerful. I don't do any more damage. Aby proved that SE's old gear progression was downright silly. Get cheap lv74 int+4 rings on blm -- save up for snow rings -- no difference. int+2 is a pointless increase. Aby proved that all those HQ items which went for millions of gils while giving an extra acc+1 or acc+2 were stupid. People who insisted on stopping leveling at 60 to get that hauby or that SH or that elemental torque were also, by extension, pretty damn silly. People who leveled in full AF to cap did just as well.

Now I'm supposed to pretend that str+8 and haste+4% are 'these stats are nuts'? Seriously? That little quote in itself proves how far out of touch SE is with any notion of 'fun'.

I've also said a lot of times, and constipatetaru up there has ignored, that I do want lost content be made relevant and fun. There is nothing fun about most of the content currently in the game. Nobody wants to do content for 0 reward. That's been proven over and over again. People would, probably, do all sorts of stuff if they could get something decent out of it.
Crafting has also been a joke for most of this game's lifespan -- it's 'low-drop rate' difficult, not 'hard', because it'll take you a stupid amount of a rare ingredient to level up at higher levels, and when you get that coveted lv100 you got nothing. Not even a T-shirt that says 'I leveled clothcraft to 100'.

Yeah, the game needs breaking, not tweaking. It's not anger that sinks a game - it's apathy. It's the feeling, upon seeing the latest update, that nothing in there excites you. Nothing in there makes you go 'oh, wow, I want to go play that.' or 'wow, I want that piece of gear.'

Seasonal content has also been a joke for a very long time. Every once in a blue moon they come up with a new furnishing. That part is cool. However, to date, I have never heard anyone tell me 'Wow, I'm so glad Mumor is back this year. I love to cheer a pretend-celebrity on.'

Over the years, I've seen lots of people go. I've seen people leave because a new MMO came out. I've seen a taru leave after three years of clothcraft lv 99. I've seen people leave because they've spent a week's worth of playtime trying to get an xp party on their lv65 drk. I've seen people leave because they couldn't beat ma'at.

I've also seen people leave because they just up and got bored. They didn't tell me 'I'm so powerful now. I kill everything.' They usually didn't say anything.

So what do we, as players, say? 'Crafting is supposed to be 'hard'. You can't expect to finish it in a month. Go spam ENMs for Galateia/farm money.' 'Make your own parties! Be nice to people! Get the best gear you can and you'll level up eventually!.' and 'Ma'at is supposed to be hard. Farm money! Get more potions! Update your gear!'.

'Go quit the game then and play WoW.'

And then, it gets awful lonely. How many people are still clinging onto the game only 'because of friends?'. What then? If this game isn't fun to play -- and I don't seem to be the only one who thinks that it isn't -- is the answer to go tweaking, or to put some actual innovation into the damn game? Something other than 'Hay guys, I took these HNMs that you used to fight and tossed them all into this new zone. Also, you get nothing new as a reward. Enjoy.'

I think FF series has potential. A whole lot of potential. Despite SE trying to smother. I think that it'll take very little to make this game shine again. Unfortunately, it has to come from a place of courage -- not a place of 'gawd, if we make them too strong, they'll kill everything and quit!'

Now, I'm told 'Go play on the test server and godmode.' Jeez. Joking aside, it's a bit sad that people are told that. It is obvious that players want to be made more powerful, that the game needs to be more fun, faster, more engaging. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't have this undercurrent of 'Go play on the test server.' and 'All you need is perma-Embrava.'

Gobblin' goblins, I wrote a lot. Phew!

I don't think players are trying to be nasty or snide telling you to play on the test server. Its almost what your looking for. Ill state this now so I don't get accused of being in the " bring back 2005" or w/e you call them crowd. I'm all for adjusting drop rates, tweaking jobs, lowering huge Aoe to non targets from high tier NM's, and other positive changes.

On the other hand, what did you expect at 99? Did you think it was going to be like FFX where you can take characters fully around the grid, get their ultimate weapon, give them some form of auto-haste, and have an unstoppable killing machine that hits for 99,999 and is only hindered by the more gimmicky mobs in the arena?

If you and other players are that concerned about being unstoppable and seeing huge red numbers, you should advocate for a MMM maze/rune combo that grants a perma-brew effect while in said maze and caps your non-gear haste %. Make it all huge monsters that hit for crap and have huge hp pools. Auto-cap magic crit. rate. Make armor that only works in these "broken" mazes with stats like Str+100,Dex+100 Eva+100, crit. rate +50,Subtle blow +50, haste +25.999%( or hell uncap gear haste in there), on one slot . I know you continue to say you don't want godmode , but outside of Aby or other areas designed for that, what you propose would basically be. There is nothing wrong with this type of play in a controlled environment (like Aby). Or ask SE to rescale everything so you see big numbers if that's what you like (ie. 5k ws becomes 50k, same effect on target as 5k tho).

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Originally Posted by Shipp

I said "breaking the game" as Aquilla wants to say, which is just a nice way of saying, "Let me godmode," turns people away from MMOs. I have no problem with drop rates being increased. None. Never been against that. What I am against is wanting Abyssea type buffs all the time, outside of Abyssea, while you're just strolling along the dunes.

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I think I'm seeing two different conversations in this thread. I chose this quote because it sorta addresses both. I'm all for "breaking the game" but to be exact more like "breaking the game mold". The idea that I would like to see is new styles of combat, things that would prevent zerging, battles that are scripted, new types of events rather then gather 18 people beat up boss monster. (or in dynamis/limbus case pray you don't get links and wipe while proceeding to said boss monster.)

I'd also like to see players get larger stats from gear, buffs etc. (also, possibly progression of gear and example would be if dynamis gear made getting limbus gear easier, which in turn made nyzul easier to complete for even better gear.) Now to clarify, this doesn't require "godmode", godmode would be if players had an overwhelming advantage, to the contrary what I would prefer are stronger monsters to match. Larger more climatic battles where DMG in the 1000s is bouncing around, in reality player vs monster variables remain, however everything is on a grander scale. However, as can be guessed something of this magnitude would completely change the way we all play, as well as all previous content either outright outdated or needing overhauls to compensate. Thus, "breaking the game". That's my preference anyway.

Oh, and on the note of drop rates, yeah drop rate increase would be nice, and hopefully more content to go with it. (Rather than the current 1/300 should keep players busy while we spend a year making something new.) Sorry, its sometimes hard to tell who is posting about godmode vs not godmode and overhaul vs not overhaul.

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Originally Posted by llello

I don't think players are trying to be nasty or snide telling you to play on the test server. Its almost what your looking for. Ill state this now so I don't get accused of being in the " bring back 2005" or w/e you call them crowd. I'm all for adjusting drop rates, tweaking jobs, lowering huge Aoe to non targets from high tier NM's, and other positive changes.

On the other hand, what did you expect at 99? Did you think it was going to be like FFX where you can take characters fully around the grid, get their ultimate weapon, give them some form of auto-haste, and have an unstoppable killing machine that hits for 99,999 and is only hindered by the more gimmicky mobs in the arena?

If you and other players are that concerned about being unstoppable and seeing huge red numbers, you should advocate for a MMM maze/rune combo that grants a perma-brew effect while in said maze and caps your non-gear haste %. Make it all huge monsters that hit for crap and have huge hp pools. Auto-cap magic crit. rate. Make armor that only works in these "broken" mazes with stats like Str+100,Dex+100 Eva+100, crit. rate +50,Subtle blow +50, haste +25.999%( or hell uncap gear haste in there), on one slot . I know you continue to say you don't want godmode , but outside of Aby or other areas designed for that, what you propose would basically be. There is nothing wrong with this type of play in a controlled environment (like Aby). Or ask SE to rescale everything so you see big numbers if that's what you like (ie. 5k ws becomes 50k, same effect on target as 5k tho).

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I 100% agree with this, and would have no objection to this type of godmoding, so long as it's limited like Abyssea is.

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Originally Posted by Aquilla

Aquilla thinks that SE needs to break the game because pussyfooting pisses people off without making anyone happy. I've never heard anyone tell me 'Wow, I'm really happy that heavy metals only drop off VW and I won't finish my Empy weapon this year. Altana knows that if I did, I'd up an' quit the game right off.' or 'Wow, I'm so glad Arise is going to be super-rare. If this was something we could buy off a npc, I'd up and quit. Five minute weakness is sacred'.

Aquilla's also been playing the game since before CoP came out. Aquilla thinks talking in third person's pretty effing weird, so that ends now. Faffy *was* a joke at lv. 75. Faffy was killed by 6-man parties at lv75. Even if that particular NM with its spike flail and breathiness was somewhat unique, killing it every day for months would make even the biggest idiots in vana'diel experts.

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Faf/Nidhogg was not done on a regular basis prior to ToAU as a 6 man group. I did the endgame circuit, was in the first NA/EU LS to down Dynamis Lord, one of the first NAs in sea, etc. I know what went on, and I'm sorry, but the zone typically had more than 100 people in it at spawn times. COULD it have been 6-manned back then? Probably, but it wasn't done since it was heavily camped, would have taken forever, and linkshells brought as many people as they could to claim. If you pulled them from behind, you got a spike flail which wiped everyone. Maybe you never fought HQ kings, I don't know, but it was common practice to bring a lot of people in case Nid popped.

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Low drop rates are not a challenge. SE needs to understand this. I'm sorry that we gotta disagree on this taru, because I like summoners a lot, but they aren't. Perhaps taru needs to train Shiva to fetch him coffees in the morning. It'd make him a whole lot more personable and less likely to run off to the forums tryin' to argue for the sake of arguing.

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Yes, we need to disagree when I just wrote prior to your post:

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That doesn't mean I'm 100% happy with everything. That doesn't mean I don't think drop rates should be increased. That doesn't mean I don't think certain fights should be tweaked. It means that allowing us to godmode around Vana'diel is not the answer.

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This is why I might be coming across as rude to you. Nearly every post of mine you have responded to, you haven't even read. It gets a tiny bit irritating when you keep making crap up, claiming we need the game broken, claiming a lot of people agree with you, claiming you disagree with me, and then turn around and parrot the exact same thing you are supposedly disagreeing with me about. I'm sorry, I might come across as an ass, but you're coming across as an airhead.

Also, I could change my job to BLM, RDM, WHM, BLU, SCH, etc. Take your pick, just picked SMN because it is the job that I have as my avatar picture on other forums.

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Waiting for a NM to spawn for 3 hours also isn't a challenge -- but thankfully SE hasn't decided to go back to that particular mode of 'hard'.

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Never said it was, and I'm glad we're not waiting 3 hours on windows anymore.

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I also never said I want godmode. If you think getting stats+50 on end-game gear is godmode, you've been whipped pretty darn hard by SE.

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If you don't think 50 stats makes a difference, you shouldn't even be complaining about endgame, because it's quite obvious you have no clue about the game.

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I came to this realization fairly recently, actually. See, I zone into Aby, get all the wonderful aby buffs, and I can go around the zone killing regular mobs relatively quickly, tanking NMs for my friends, and man, it was fun. I zone out of aby, and lv99 is the same as lv75 -- I don't feel any more powerful. I don't do any more damage. Aby proved that SE's old gear progression was downright silly. Get cheap lv74 int+4 rings on blm -- save up for snow rings -- no difference. int+2 is a pointless increase. Aby proved that all those HQ items which went for millions of gils while giving an extra acc+1 or acc+2 were stupid. People who insisted on stopping leveling at 60 to get that hauby or that SH or that elemental torque were also, by extension, pretty damn silly. People who leveled in full AF to cap did just as well.

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Incorrect, especially on the INT for BLM. INT directly affects damage. The formula is not hard to find. There is a soft cap where diminishing returns start after so much INT is obtained, but you're not going to reach that outside of Aby buffs.

And no, people in full AF did not do the same amount of damage and whatnot as people who wore what endgame shells dictated. Again, you're coming across as an airhead when these formulas have been around for years and are no mystery to the majority of players. Kind of making me doubt your claim that you played prior to CoP, but then that was already iffy with your hypothetical passed off as reality involving 6-manning Fafnir.

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Now I'm supposed to pretend that str+8 and haste+4% are 'these stats are nuts'? Seriously? That little quote in itself proves how far out of touch SE is with any notion of 'fun'.

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They make a difference.

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I've also said a lot of times, and constipatetaru up there has ignored, that I do want lost content be made relevant and fun. There is nothing fun about most of the content currently in the game. Nobody wants to do content for 0 reward. That's been proven over and over again. People would, probably, do all sorts of stuff if they could get something decent out of it.

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And like I've said several times, and you have ignored, several of us don't have this obsessive yearning for the game to change ON THE LEVEL that you want it to. It's a game, if you aren't having fun, quit after you voice your opinion. I didn't obsessively whine about WoW when I quit. I canceled, came back to XI, and have been having a blast ever since. Not all of us have as many issues as you do with the game. Some of us actually enjoy the game, which you are finding NO joy in, as your post states. Imagine that, different tastes.

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Crafting has also been a joke for most of this game's lifespan -- it's 'low-drop rate' difficult, not 'hard', because it'll take you a stupid amount of a rare ingredient to level up at higher levels, and when you get that coveted lv100 you got nothing. Not even a T-shirt that says 'I leveled clothcraft to 100'.

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Guess what, it's not required either. Yes, I agree that crafting should be changed somewhat, but that's mostly to do with the fact that a lot of crafts are pretty much useless at this point for making any respectable income. At least compared to the choco blinker trade.

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Yeah, the game needs breaking, not tweaking. It's not anger that sinks a game - it's apathy. It's the feeling, upon seeing the latest update, that nothing in there excites you. Nothing in there makes you go 'oh, wow, I want to go play that.' or 'wow, I want that piece of gear.'

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And not all of us feel the way you do. That is the thing you don't seem to understand. You want all of us who are somewhat satisfied with the game to bend to you and people who feel the same as you. You don't know where the majority is. You don't know whether the majority of people are sick of the game or whether they are content. You're trying to sit here high and mighty pretending you know why people are quitting, when you're overlooking the most obvious fact that the game is dated and is quite quaint in this MMO market. If you want a next-gen style MMO where you are over-powered and never have to play with another person, you go right ahead and sub up to any other current MMO. Some of us still like the dying breed of old-school style MMOs where grouping is still the main method to get things done, but with tweaks (yes tweaks, not game-breaking changes) so we can get stuff done in a timely manner, but still keep the old-school style fights, grouping, and basically experience.

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Seasonal content has also been a joke for a very long time. Every once in a blue moon they come up with a new furnishing. That part is cool. However, to date, I have never heard anyone tell me 'Wow, I'm so glad Mumor is back this year. I love to cheer a pretend-celebrity on.'

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I've never cared about seasonal content since about the second year I played XI. Before then, it was more of a compulsion that I felt I HAD to do it. Now I just don't care, and barely ever did it in WoW, either.

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Over the years, I've seen lots of people go. I've seen people leave because a new MMO came out. I've seen a taru leave after three years of clothcraft lv 99. I've seen people leave because they've spent a week's worth of playtime trying to get an xp party on their lv65 drk. I've seen people leave because they couldn't beat ma'at.

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Guess what, since I came back in January, I have seen 6 people return who are loving it. Anecdotal evidence. You're chock full.

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I've also seen people leave because they just up and got bored. They didn't tell me 'I'm so powerful now. I kill everything.' They usually didn't say anything.

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Yeah, I left WoW for that same reason, except I did say, "I feel overpowered and there is no challenge, raids are faceroll, instances are faceroll, and it is boring."

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So what do we, as players, say? 'Crafting is supposed to be 'hard'. You can't expect to finish it in a month. Go spam ENMs for Galateia/farm money.' 'Make your own parties! Be nice to people! Get the best gear you can and you'll level up eventually!.' and 'Ma'at is supposed to be hard. Farm money! Get more potions! Update your gear!'.

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What? I soloed Maat on both RDM and SMN yesterday in the span of 10 minutes. Total. You're a 99 and you're saying Maat is hard? One pred claw for 1k and about 10 seconds of melee wiped him out on SMN. Two thunder IVs and a blizzard IV wiped him out on RDM. Maybe I just misread that or something, but if you're having problems with Maat at 99, perhaps you should look into how stats affect your character since you think +50 is just not much difference at all.

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'Go quit the game then and play WoW.'

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Honestly, WoW sounds like the perfect game for you. Not because it's a bad game, or that stuff is crappy there. Just that exactly what you're asking for can be found in WoW. Inflated numbers, doing 100k+ DPS, shinies with +500 stats, etc.

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And then, it gets awful lonely. How many people are still clinging onto the game only 'because of friends?'. What then? If this game isn't fun to play -- and I don't seem to be the only one who thinks that it isn't -- is the answer to go tweaking, or to put some actual innovation into the damn game? Something other than 'Hay guys, I took these HNMs that you used to fight and tossed them all into this new zone. Also, you get nothing new as a reward. Enjoy.'

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Of course you're not the only one holding that opinion. I'm not the only one who thinks WoW got crazy stupid back in Nov/Dec, but I don't insinuate that the majority of people hold that same opinion. That is the problem, you are insinuating that, and you have 0% evidence for that aside from a couple people on this forum (which has the reputation of being filled with whiners and doomsday spouters) agreeing with you. Big shock there.

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I think FF series has potential. A whole lot of potential. Despite SE trying to smother. I think that it'll take very little to make this game shine again. Unfortunately, it has to come from a place of courage -- not a place of 'gawd, if we make them too strong, they'll kill everything and quit!'

Now, I'm told 'Go play on the test server and godmode.' Jeez. Joking aside, it's a bit sad that people are told that. It is obvious that players want to be made more powerful, that the game needs to be more fun, faster, more engaging. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't have this undercurrent of 'Go play on the test server.' and 'All you need is perma-Embrava.'

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I feel powerful enough, so please stop trying to talk for everyone. I also take care in trying to keep my gear up to par, at the very least, something you don't seem to like doing since you think people in AF armor perform the same as someone in decked out gear with more stats. Perhaps that is your problem.

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Originally Posted by Zinato

I think I'm seeing two different conversations in this thread. I chose this quote because it sorta addresses both. I'm all for "breaking the game" but to be exact more like "breaking the game mold"

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Zinato nailed it! Thank you!

That's exactly what I am saying. And if people think this game is fine the way it is, that's okay too. They're allowed to make threads and posts and overlong responses. I don't think anyone in this thread was nasty or snide o.o; I'm a bit shocked that people would get that emotional about it, tbh.

Hey, to each his own. SE is still making games and making this game. I think that they can do a lot better than they are doing.

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Originally Posted by Shipp

(which has the reputation of being filled with whiners and doomsday spouters) agreeing with you. Big shock there.

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Really? your better than the whole forum now?

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Originally Posted by Shipp

I also take care in trying to keep my gear up to par, at the very least, something you don't seem to like doing since you think people in AF armor perform the same as someone in decked out gear with more stats. Perhaps that is your problem.

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I'm just going to pick this one out of several other obvious misconceptions that you drew from his / her post.

They were pointing out that pimping out your gear between level ??? and 75 is fairly pointless because even if you rock the worst gear, you will still reach 75 just as fast as pimped out guy. They were not trying to say that AF is good enough.

This conversation is really off topic, and you are arguing points that weren't even made.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Really? your better than the whole forum now?




I'm just going to pick this one out of several other obvious misconceptions that you drew from his / her post.

They were pointing out that pimping out your gear between level ??? and 75 is fairly pointless because even if you rock the worst gear, you will still reach 75 just as fast as pimped out guy. They were not trying to say that AF is good enough.

This conversation is really off topic, and you are arguing points that weren't even made.

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Very well put Frank and Zinato.

To Shipp: Buddy, I need you to read. Rather, skill up your reading comprehension or something.

Firstly, if you think that +50 of a stat is "godmode" I don't know what games you've been playing but it sure as hell isn't WoW and itsn't FFXI because in neither game is +50 of a stat a condition of "godmode".

Secondly, it is absolutely ridiculous that my stats have only received very marginal increases from lvl 75 to 99. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻) !!

Which leads me to my third point. Str+8 and Haste+4% is *not* amazing for a end game piece for lvl 99. Endgame gear at 75 gave more stats than that and that's not saying much. Str+8/Haste+4% at lvl 99 should make you go (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻) !

Those stats in my opinion are better suited for lvl 30-40, not lvl 99.

P.S. Also, my e-penis is SO much bigger than your e-penis... but I didn't take five pages to say that.

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Originally Posted by Shipp

I said look at sub numbers since Blizzard made them easy

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Unless I missed those reports, or you somehow work for Blizzard and know something on the inside, the last quarterly report they released with the info on subscription drops accounted to prior 3.3, AKA raid finder, the Hour of Twilight dungeons and The Fall of Deathwing. That's the one where they lost around 300K~ subs. As I said, dungeon tuning, changes to classes and PvP are to blame.

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After Blizzard nerfed the hell out of Cata dungeons and raids, have you kept up with subs? They're still dropping.

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A lot of people came back with 3.3. Problem is a good number also left when Old Republic launched. I'd know, as most of my guild left for TOR and still haven't returned (so much for the TORtanic meme).

Going to Aquilla's point for this thread, I think some emphasis should be placed on fixing/retuning/redesigning some of the older events and systems. Probably the thing I dislike most about the FFXI developers ("balance" notwithstanding) is that they don't sit down and say "boy did we screw that up. Let's try to do some redesigning/remaking/whatever sometime down the road". I don't mean just evoliths, but garrison, eco-warrior, expeditionary forces, chocobo raising (land transportation in general), pankration, conquest as a whole and so on. A lot of them are either badly designed, incomplete, cling to relevancy due to one or two items, or have to be turned into requirements for endgame events to not look like wastes of development time.

Blizzard is trying to get people to come back to play their game are giving a free level 80 character along with an upgrade to cataclysm regardless of how many expansions they have on their account. Needless to say the current players weren't too happy and wanted their own free level 80 character.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Really? your better than the whole forum now?

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Never said I'm better than the whole forum, I'm just stating what seems to be the opinion from nearly every other forum. Maybe you only check this one, I don't know. I've read what I described on more than one other forum, and numerous times at that. OP even made a comment about the type of reputation this place has.

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I'm just going to pick this one out of several other obvious misconceptions that you drew from his / her post.

They were pointing out that pimping out your gear between level ??? and 75 is fairly pointless because even if you rock the worst gear, you will still reach 75 just as fast as pimped out guy. They were not trying to say that AF is good enough.

This conversation is really off topic, and you are arguing points that weren't even made.

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Except you wouldn't reach it just as fast, because you wouldn't have been invited as fast as someone who had pimped out gear. Also, I'm pretty sure this comment states AF was good enough to get to 75 in.

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Get cheap lv74 int+4 rings on blm -- save up for snow rings -- no difference. int+2 is a pointless increase. Aby proved that all those HQ items which went for millions of gils while giving an extra acc+1 or acc+2 were stupid. People who insisted on stopping leveling at 60 to get that hauby or that SH or that elemental torque were also, by extension, pretty damn silly. People who leveled in full AF to cap did just as well.

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People who pimped their gear were silly. People who got things like Scorp Harness were silly. People who wore Snow rings were silly. People who level in AF did just as well.

Except that's not the case, never has been, nor will it ever be.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Blizzard is trying to get people to come back to play their game are giving a free level 80 character along with an upgrade to cataclysm regardless of how many expansions they have on their account. Needless to say the current players weren't too happy and wanted their own free level 80 character.

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The problem with many MMO's is that as they age so does their population and content level. A player joining FFXI right now has so much stuff they need to do before they can join the rest of the game that it's daunting and highly discouraging. They have over a years worth of work (Zilart / CoP / ToAU / Nation Quests / Dyna wins / Genkai / ect..) before their able to do what we do right now. WoW is no different, a new player would have to grind up their toon and do tons of quests and faction farming just to be somewhat acceptable for raid groups. Again that is very daunting to new players, or even older players returning and starting new. SE's idea is to make all old content easy to do and just let XP flow like a flood (Abyssea / GoV), WoW's was to give out a level 80 char to new players.

I really wanna beat the "boxed expansion set" drum here.

I remember the OMGWTFBBQSAUCE reaction to the snippets of info about CoP as it was being released. Until the tedium of the missions kicked in, there was nothing that wasn't win about the CoP expansion when it came out. Exploring Attohwa as a nubby dubby and getting 1 shot unexpectedly was magical.

And then ToAU. ToAU had freaking BIPEDAL DINOSAUR MOBS! And they hopped up and down and cast killer black magic and just.. DAMN! And chigoes man! Freaking invisible, pint sized DEATH!

And then WoTG with the cavernous maws! Just walking by those things before the update, you knew it was no DeLorean man! Those things were gonna EAT you and shit you out in the past! And they actually included the Sandworm "Zone Eaters" from FFXI and you got sucked in for a mini event! Freaking-A!

I wanna feel the MAGIC again. Reminiscing about the old expansions when they came out, it's like that GF whose name escapes you but how that first time together friggin' ROCKED and now you wish you could remember her name, because thinking about her brings a smile to your face. We need a new whatername to fondly remember years from now!

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Originally Posted by saevel

The problem with many MMO's is that as they age so does their population and content level. A player joining FFXI right now has so much stuff they need to do before they can join the rest of the game that it's daunting and highly discouraging. They have over a years worth of work (Zilart / CoP / ToAU / Nation Quests / Dyna wins / Genkai / ect..) before their able to do what we do right now. WoW is no different, a new player would have to grind up their toon and do tons of quests and faction farming just to be somewhat acceptable for raid groups. Again that is very daunting to new players, or even older players returning and starting new. SE's idea is to make all old content easy to do and just let XP flow like a flood (Abyssea / GoV), WoW's was to give out a level 80 char to new players.

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Zilart, CoP, and ToAU can be largely be soloed at 99. I've helped a few people with Limit Breaks since I've been back, and I've seen other people helping newer players, or returning players, as well. You don't have to finish Nation quests, only do enough to start the other expansion missions. Same for Zilart/CoP. You don't have to finish them, and just about all of them prior to sky/sea can be soloed. I did the bulk of ToAU when I got back within 2 weeks, and got Alex and Odin. Dyna wins I agree with though, as I'm glad I had them cleared years ago prior to this neo Dynamis.

All that said, it's a lot more difficult to start XI than WoW. The grind to 85 in WoW is about the same as the original grind to 60 in Vanilla. They've buffed XP gained for each previous expansion. Also, you don't have to do attunements in WoW any longer (haven't for years) and the old raid content is only run anymore for fun, mounts, random recipes, and transmog sets. A new player can get to 85 within a few weeks in WoW at a casual pace and basically jump right into endgame. If they PvP, they can convert Honor to points for PvE gear and just buy better stuff than running the normal instances. They can get enough gear that way to get into the Well of Eternity heroics, gear up, and then join the herd in the raid finder. As far as rep, there are really only two reputations in Cata that you need to build up for raiding, and for casters that's Hyjal and Deepholm. Once you build Hyjal rep once, you can just mail the enchants to another toon you make since they're BoA.

I think giving out a level 80 is a bit cheap. Regardless of whether you key in Abyssea (which you won't be doing until you already have a job that you leveled in GoV parties) or find a leech spot in a FC group, you at least spent the time, even if you just AFK'd and went to work or something in a FC burn. Giving out an 80 not only cheapens the experience, but it also nullifies the work that went into redesigning 1-60. Sure people will level alts, but it still seems like a desperate move, in my opinion.

I'd like to point out that it has *always* been more difficult to start in FFXI than WoW.

For one, FFXI never, and I mean never actually had a starting tutorial. Back when I started you got shown a cs of your home nation that introduced you and bam, that was it. You had to figure out everything else on your own. To be perfectly honest, not much has changed since. Even now with the half-assed starting guide a player first starting out in FFXI will have unnecessary trouble.

That was never the case in WoW. Once your character is created you see your little cs and a little box pops up on the screen telling you how to play. Ten to fifteen minutes later you know how to play WoW.

This may not seem important to you or me (aka people familiar/comfortable with playing w/ a keyboard) but to casual players or console players whom have never experienced playing via keyboard it was an important step. Blizzard turned a rather intimidating aspect of interface (aka using a keyboard) into something very simple to do.

Chocobits, you're right. Capturing that 'omg, this is new and exciting' feeling would be amazing. I would love to see more new areas added to the game. I can't argue against that.

However, they also need to actually go back -- and much like Duelle said, revamp the old stuff. SE has spent a very long time just letting content die. For example: they add evoliths. Playerbase hates it/laughs at it. They do nothing. Much like Zinato said, they do need to be a lot better about progression in general -- gear progression, game progression. More of a feeling of accomplishment when you DO upgrade your gear, not like 'omg, yay! I have a snow ring, and before I had a diamond ring! My damage..er... didn't really increase but...I sure feel more ubar.'

FrankReynolds made a point about how, in a MMO, teamwork is good, but shouldn't be an absolute requirement for everything.

They need to up the drop rates on a whole lot of stuff. Low drop rates =/= challenge. Shipp made that point rather eloquently.

That's just a few names from this thread. This forum is made up of people who have some great ideas about this game. Granted, it's got a few nuts, also, but that's okay too. Nuts are a nice snack. Back in my OP, i made that exact point: there are a lot of great ideas being tossed out onto the forums. SE has opened up this channel of communication. And, I can't say that they didn't listen -- they have made a few tweaks here and there. They've also barreled forward, stubborn-mule-like, down channels that seem pointless.

Yes, saevel is right when he says that starting out in XI now would face a newbie with a mountain of content. Shipp is also right in that most of that content is useless. XI, as I said, is a monument to abandoned content/mission lines/etc. Some of these have great stories -- some of the quest lines, with their cut scenes and good characters -- should be made more relevant. XI has unique gameplay, and it should preserve that. It should also work to make it so much better than it is.

I think that this game, to borrow another phrase from the thread, needs to break the mold a bit. It needs to stop pretending like people are going to go back to 2004, and everything will be new again. It needs to remake itself into something new. It's more than doable -- and many people smarter than me have given great ideas as to how that can be done.

What SE can't afford to do, imho, is cling to status quo like a piece of gum clings to the bottom of a shoe. The game needs a rebirth, a re-imagining, and it needs to do so with a focus on fun and a focus on community. SE has recognized, with the creation of these forums, that the community exists -- they also need to provide ways for that community to exist in game.

Revamp the linkshells. Revamp the LFG system. Revamp the dead content and bring it to life, SE.

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Originally Posted by Shipp

Never said I'm better than the whole forum, I'm just stating what seems to be the opinion from nearly every other forum. Maybe you only check this one, I don't know. I've read what I described on more than one other forum, and numerous times at that. OP even made a comment about the type of reputation this place has.

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Take note that the people writing that stuff on other forums are the same people reading and posting on this forum and realize that that argument is pointless.

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Originally Posted by Shipp

Except you wouldn't reach it just as fast, because you wouldn't have been invited as fast as someone who had pimped out gear. Also, I'm pretty sure this comment states AF was good enough to get to 75 in.

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AF was good enough to get to 75 in. The unfortunate fact is that waiting around town for that perfect geared guy to pop up his flag slows down xp more than just going with the mediocre guy in most cases because back at 75 cap, odds were that the perfect geared guy wasn't ever going to show.

This completely ignores the fact that the whole argument was obviously meant to make a fairly obvious (not to be taken literally ) point that you are either purposely or accidentally missing (either way it doesn't look good for you).

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Originally Posted by Shipp

People who pimped their gear were silly. People who got things like Scorp Harness were silly. People who wore Snow rings were silly. People who level in AF did just as well.

Except that's not the case, never has been, nor will it ever be.

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No they didn't do just as well. They did well enough to get to 75 fairly quickly where they could work on gear that would actually last them for longer than 1 event / exp party.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Take note that the people writing that stuff on other forums are the same people reading and posting on this forum and realize that that argument is pointless.

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Not really, no. Also, it wasn't an argument, it was a statement. Please don't confuse the two.

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AF was good enough to get to 75 in. The unfortunate fact is that waiting around town for that perfect geared guy to pop up his flag slows down xp more than just going with the mediocre guy in most cases because back at 75 cap, odds were that the perfect geared guy wasn't ever going to show.

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Except the exact words were that things like INT+2 stats did -NOTHING-. Also, most people wore better gear than AF, at least back on Unicorn. Most people stopped, camped NMs, made money, and bought stuff like SH and Hauby. So it was more like, "Either pick that THF that has no SH and is wearing full AF, or pick one of the other DDs who could actually hit the mob more than 50% of the time." Also, you seem to be forgetting that if nobody was in the seeking range, people often asked friends, LS members, or even other people they had partied with previously that they knew had good gear to come. Just because people didn't have a seek flag up didn't mean they wouldn't come party, especially when DDs got lucky to not only NOT have to wait for hours, but they didn't even have to seek in the first place.

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This completely ignores the fact that the whole argument was obviously meant to make a fairly obvious (not to be taken literally ) point that you are either purposely or accidentally missing (either way it doesn't look good for you).

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Except it was meant to be taken literally, because she specifically gave very detailed examples. You just know what she said is wrong, just like I do, and you insist on arguing instead of removing your head from your rear and acknowledging that I'm not the idiot you seem to think I am. Also, remember when you completely took one of my posts out of context and claimed I was some elitist gear whore, and it was even pointed out that you missed the point and that's not how my post read at all? I do.

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No they didn't do just as well. They did well enough to get to 75 fairly quickly where they could work on gear that would actually last them for longer than 1 event / exp party.

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And:

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People who leveled in full AF to cap did just as well.

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But that wasn't literally right? They did just as well, but not literally? I never said they didn't do well enough to get to 75. I said they didn't do just as well. I said they typically did not get to 75 as fast, since reputation actually mattered back then. Doesn't mean Joe Blow couldn't nub it up as a naked DRG/WHM and get from 1-75 in the span of a month, it means it wasn't the norm, and implying that they got parties just as quick back then is just arguing for the sake of arguing.

If you're going to keep responding to my post addressing someone else, and then agreeing with me WHILE trying to argue that I'm wrong, then insist that I'm the one who doesn't look good... See, you are so full of contradictions it causes a run-on sentence.

Except you're missing the point Shipp - repeatedly... I'm really not sure how this keeps happening to you.

+2 of *any* stat is such a marginal increase that you cannot even tell the difference without a parser. For that matter, so is +4 of a stat. It's only when we hit the double digits that you may be able to tell something without a parser. +10 of a stat isn't much but at least you can see the result a bit better than if it were a +2.

However, even +10 of a stat is a marginal increase but it is one people would be more willing to accept.

That being said, yeah, having an SH or a Hauby did enhance your play back in the day but I've seen plenty of people go up to 75 without them. They weren't pieces of gear that made or broke the game and it is only after we've experienced Abyssea that we can see that so clearly.

Therefore amount of time people spent worrying about +1's of gear is kind of silly. The fact that they worried so about marginal increase is even sillier. +10 ACC or +12ACC, or for that matter +5ACC.... Nobody without a parser will be able to tell the difference. Which is the real tragedy.

Rare / expensive +1 gear is exactly that, rare and expensive. It's the Gucci of digital possessions and used for the exact same reason.

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Originally Posted by Anapingofness

Except you're missing the point Shipp - repeatedly... I'm really not sure how this keeps happening to you.

+2 of *any* stat is such a marginal increase that you cannot even tell the difference without a parser. For that matter, so is +4 of a stat. It's only when we hit the double digits that you may be able to tell something without a parser. +10 of a stat isn't much but at least you can see the result a bit better than if it were a +2.

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No. Go on BLM, nuke something. Put on snow rings and nuke it with the same spell. You WILL see a difference, and that is exactly my point. I'm not missing anything. I'm being argued with by people who apparently have no clue what they're talking about, yet they're all patting each other on the back as if they're right.

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However, even +10 of a stat is a marginal increase but it is one people would be more willing to accept.

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Most people don't tend to just upgrade one item. It's a cumulative affect. Sure, if I was only adding snow rings without other INT gear, it wouldn't affect me too much. I can understand people in full AF feeling as though just a snow ring won't do much. If they actually upgraded all of their gear accordingly, it would. Even so, you will actually see a difference in damage if you buy the snow rings. Not by some huge amount, but you still DO see the increase.

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That being said, yeah, having an SH or a Hauby did enhance your play back in the day but I've seen plenty of people go up to 75 without them. They weren't pieces of gear that made or broke the game and it is only after we've experienced Abyssea that we can see that so clearly.

Therefore amount of time people spent worrying about +1's of gear is kind of silly. The fact that they worried so about marginal increase is even sillier. +10 ACC or +12ACC, or for that matter +5ACC.... Nobody without a parser will be able to tell the difference. Which is the real tragedy.

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However, the original statement was that AF did JUST AS WELL as all of that gear. Marginal or not (it was not as marginal in the 60's and you seem to think it was) AF did not perform just as well since AF tends to be horrible for a lot of jobs, with usually 2 or 3 pieces that actually have useful stats for how that job operates in a party setting.

Your post just proves that you keep missing the point Shipp. I refuse to get into a battle of numbers with you, which is what you seem to want.

Yes, you are right in the sense that it is very much so a cumulative effect. One snow ring won't do much for you... which is what I said, mind you. Two snow rings won't do it either, but if you do upgrade everything else so that it adds up to +30, +50, etc INT yeah. Then you do see a difference- also something that has been said over and over in this thread.

That part has never been debated so why are you debating it now? What is being debated (well one of the things being debated) is the fact that gear, especially end game gear is giving you such marginal increases that you have to rely on that cumulative effect. Moreover, that cumulative effect isn't that great either but at least it's something. Would it hurt the game if we could equip +50 INT rings, no, it really wouldn't.

But then we get into another problem, gear slots and space. Which I really don't want to touch right now.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Rare / expensive +1 gear is exactly that, rare and expensive. It's the Gucci of digital possessions and used for the exact same reason.

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hey, I like that. I would actually really like to have fashion gear (not what you're saying, I get it.) I also have no problem with some gear being pretty damn rare. That's okay!

However, what I am saying is that endgame rewards should be better than non-endgame rewards. A lot better. If it takes me 3 nukes to kill a mob, going from, let's say, +50 int to +52 int will not make it 2 nukes to kill that same mob. To be even more pedantic: if a mob has exactly enough HP for my nuke to take away about 33-34% of its hp, me adding a total of +2 int to my set up, no matter how awesome it is, will not make my nuke do +50% of its hp. Because 2 additional int will not make a visible difference. Therefore, adding an endgame reward that is +8 str +8 agi haste+4% is not *Awesome*. It's not shitty, but it's not awesome. It's apathy-inducing.

However, that's not the point of my thread, or of my argument. I don't care if they add +50 int rings or if they make that +2 actually mean something.

The point of my thread, and my argument, is stated in the OP. Here it is, restated: This game needs to change. It needs to change a lot, drastically, and it needs to revise some of its mechanism. It needs to look at the systems that it depends on, the functional systems like linkshell and lfg. It needs to look at the sea of dead content. It needs to look at a real, viable way to attract new players.

A ton of people, on this very forums, have some great ideas as to how SE can do just that. I would like to see SE looking at some of those -- and I would like to see SE show that they are actually considering changing some things.

For example: they added chocobo racing to an overwhelmingly 'meh' reaction, including quite a few 'boo'. So they tweaked it. They added npcs that wander around and place bets. They added those fugly shirts. They never considered revamping the event because not a lot of people enjoy watching a cut scene of racing chickens.

Now, mind you, the shirts weren't bad. Heck, the choco-digging shirt is an example of a reward that is actually good, as it, actually, increases what you can do by a percentage more than 1.

But it's still not a fun event. It's still dead content, although I'm sure there's a handful of people who do it. It's still not something that I can show to a person and say 'hey, come play this mini-game. It's fun.'

If you could actually race your bird, would it scare away the people who have ground their way through cutscenes and cutscenes? Maybe. I say we try it, and see what happens.

Break the game, SE. Stop being afraid, and be innovative. Make this a game where there is fun to be had, and not just grinding for miniscule rewards. Bring back the spirit of exploration and storytelling.

That is my point.

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Originally Posted by Shipp

No. Go on BLM, nuke something. Put on snow rings and nuke it with the same spell. You WILL see a difference, and that is exactly my point. I'm not missing anything. I'm being argued with by people who apparently have no clue what they're talking about, yet they're all patting each other on the back as if they're right.


Most people don't tend to just upgrade one item. It's a cumulative affect. Sure, if I was only adding snow rings without other INT gear, it wouldn't affect me too much. I can understand people in full AF feeling as though just a snow ring won't do much. If they actually upgraded all of their gear accordingly, it would. Even so, you will actually see a difference in damage if you buy the snow rings. Not by some huge amount, but you still DO see the increase.


However, the original statement was that AF did JUST AS WELL as all of that gear. Marginal or not (it was not as marginal in the 60's and you seem to think it was) AF did not perform just as well since AF tends to be horrible for a lot of jobs, with usually 2 or 3 pieces that actually have useful stats for how that job operates in a party setting.

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lit·er·al/ˈlitərəl/
Adjective:
Taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory.

gen·er·al·i·za·tion/ˌjenərəliˈzāSHən/
Noun:
A general statement or concept obtained by inference from specific cases.
The action of generalizing: "+2 of *any* stat is such a marginal increase that you cannot even tell the difference without a parser".


For future reference, any time someone doesn't show their math and or formulas, you should probably assume they are generalizing.

And yes. When you call everyone on this forum "whiners and doomsday spouters" (whatever the heck that is), you are by extension making the argument that nothing we (or you for that matter, seeing as you post here too) say should be taken seriously. You have now officially argued that you are not arguing, which is super high quality trolling, and I applaude you.

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Originally Posted by Aquilla

Break the game, SE. Stop being afraid, and be innovative. Make this a game where there is fun to be had, and not just grinding for miniscule rewards. Bring back the spirit of exploration and storytelling.

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On a slightly pesimistic note, I'm fairly sure that's what FFXIV was ment to do, Overhaul the graphic and mechanics of XI into something new so that XI could just fade away. Granted to be fair unlike this thread they chose to take those changes but, into the opposite direction. (AH -1, Mob lvl variance +20, etc.)

It's strange so many people are against the game being like WoW. Yes, a clone of WoW wouldn't be anything unique so a direct copy is out of the question. But, can anyone deny that some of the mechanics such as gear progression, raid style and so on aren't partially responsible for making WoW THEE most populated game, even though its nearly as old as XI? WoW as of Dec 2011 reported over 10m subscribers, let me put that into perspective FFXI in 2009 shortly before the server merger reported for the first time 2m subscribers. Since then it has dramatically dropped as evident from x2 server mergers. November 23, 2004 was WoW's launch, North America got PC FFXI October 28, 2003 that's a difference of little over a year. Numbers don't lie WoW did something right, and from a directly business stand point, which is better 10m subscribers but less "unique" or barely 2m?

Oh and I wanted to point out in case I repeated something, I haven't read any posts by or about Shipp. They all seem to be post -> reply to every line of post -> reply to each reply. So if I missed something in those posts I apologize.

Short version: XIV tried to be the fresh XI, look where that got it. (Pro tip: listen to the buyers)
WoW has x5 the subscribers of what FFXI had at its peak despite being only a year younger, they are doing something right.

Zinato, you make a good, if dangerous point. Honestly, I am not an expert on WoW, but I did give it a shot for a bit, and yes, some of those mechanics I did like. For example, the tutorial was nicely done. The game was very good at explaining where it wants you to go and what to do. And, WoW did have mini-games. I particularly enjoyed the plants vs. zombies minigame and I enjoyed this.. thing where you go shoot at dragons with your dragon.. I don't remember the name for it, it was a repeatable quest. The point is, you get a dragon and you shoot down other dragons. That was kinna fun. Mainly, though, WoW tried to appeal to as many players as possible. The game struck me as something that the developers truly had fun putting together. There was much humor in it, for example, and a lot of fun.

I never got into WoW terribly -- mainly cuz I can't be paying for two MMOs, and I didn't like the community at all -- but yeah, you're right.

In fact, a ton of their proposed changes to XIV seem to be the stuff that WoW has. not that WoW has monopoly on stuff like dungeon finder...but yeah. XIV was too unique in certain aspects (We won't have any classes!) and not unique enough in other aspects (copy-paste terrain, copy-paste races from XI with a different backstory, so it made no sense) but that's neither here nor there.

FFXI's major problem has been -- and remains -- is that it's damn hard to get into. It's unfriendly to new players. It takes too many hoops to start playing it, and that probably turned a ton of people off. They never took a long, hard look at their shortcomings. They never said 'Yeah, the LFG system has sucked for years. Let's go change it.' In fact, they seem downright unwilling to make major changes like that.

That's mainly where I want innovation. I dont' care if they take my ideas, or not. I'm not a game developer. But I would like to see that someone at SE is looking at this game critically and saying 'Here's something new to this game, something we didn't have. Here's events which are designed to be enjoyed by a lot of people. Here's how we plan to attract new people. ' Instead...hell, I've no clue what they're doing instead. Spinning their wheels in the mud, it seems, creatively.

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Originally Posted by Aquilla

And, WoW did have mini-games. I particularly enjoyed the plants vs. zombies minigame and I enjoyed this.. thing where you go shoot at dragons with your dragon.. I don't remember the name for it, it was a repeatable quest.

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Probably Defending Wyrmrest Temple.

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There was much humor in it, for example, and a lot of fun.

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The pop culture references and the fact the game in certain aspects never took itself seriously is why it was a lot easier to digest. I mean, we have an NPC in Shattrath that's called Haris Pilton who has a dog named Tinkerbell that sells a 24 slot bag called Portable Hole. We used to have a Battlemaster called Adam Eternum going on about how he found a magical loincloth (and some guy coming after him for stealing his "Gray Skull") and has a battle tiger and a short sidekick that's there for comic relief. The PETA parody known as DEHTA. Characters like Lunk, Mylune, Linken (and his Sword of Mastery). Recurring characters like Harrison Jones, and the immortal Captain Placeholder.

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They never took a long, hard look at their shortcomings. They never said 'Yeah, the LFG system has sucked for years. Let's go change it.' In fact, they seem downright unwilling to make major changes like that.

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Indeed. I don't know if it's due to staff or budget limitations or just downright stubbornness, but a lot of aspects of the game do need to be looked over, fixed where possible or redesigned when all else fails.

yes! exactly!

This game needs a breath of fresh air. Yet, I don't see that. The last few updates that they gave us were either minor nerfs (certain empy weapons, Dipper yulu) in the name of balance, or grinds (1500 heavy metals, for one). no lightheartedness. No innovation. Just.. nothing. Yeah, i've mentioned it a few times -- but the straw that made me make the original post was the 'These stats are nuts!!!' on the red body piece from legion. Dear heavens, why was that exciting?

There is funny things in this game. Certain story-lines are funny. Missions are funny. Finding 300k in the library in windurst is funny. Heck, clicking on the dyna-CoP cutscene is funny..but recently, none of that has made it down the pipeline. the only minigames are the seasonal events, and Mumor's starting to make me see red.

More creativity, SE! Hire some new peeps, or something. College students tend to be pretty creative, and they'll work for peanuts.