Nerfing Ukko/Vsmite so lazy players can be more useful?

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

SE's way of balancing is kind of like the American public school system trying to lower the difficulty of the tests so a greater majority of students pass.

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That makes no sense. For that to be a reasonable comparison, SE would be making it easier to do more damage. They would be buffing everything, not hammer the nail sticking out.

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Originally Posted by Disguise

WAR and MNK are the 2 main Damage-Dealing jobs in the game, how can you even believe that nerfing the only 2 good weapon/weapon skills that is a pain in the back side to achieve, will bring balance?

The 2 jobs are MADE to output as much damage as possible, it's been that way since the 50 cap. To lower there damage even more 24 more levels is stupid, we are going to pretty much be outputting level 75 damage outside of abyssea.

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So what are DRK and DRG made for? Procs?

And if a 10% maximum reduction in your weaponskill's damage is making you do the same damage as a level 75 WAR, then I suggest you look into your gear and playstyle before coming back here, because you're doing it horribly wrong.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

So what are DRK and DRG made for? Procs?

And if a 10% maximum reduction in your weaponskill's damage is making you do the same damage as a level 75 WAR, then I suggest you look into your gear and playstyle before coming back here, because you're doing it horribly wrong.

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drk is a tank and drg is the most(2nd?) efficient healer in the game

Yeah I Hear a lot of "im gonna do lvl75 damage" which is retarded to even think imo.
If your warrior is gonna suck that bad after the nerf then look at your gear and stop crying over having to put some real thought into your gear selection from now on, but I guess u can't blame a warrior for whinning about having to actually think about those kinda Things lol

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Originally Posted by Brolic

drk is a tank and drg is the most(2nd?) efficient healer in the game

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I hope you're trolling. If not you are incredibly ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Brolic

drk is a tank and drg is the most(2nd?) efficient healer in the game

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http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...a/uchihaha.gif

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Originally Posted by Brolic

drk is a tank and drg is the most(2nd?) efficient healer in the game

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http://i33.tinypic.com/28lb4uf.jpg

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Originally Posted by Brolic

drk is a tank and drg is the most(2nd?) efficient healer in the game

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DYje57V_BY

Give me a break, relics are very easy to make too. Take your guild and each person go dynamis and farm you coins and you'll be done in a week too. There's absolutely no reason relics should hit for 5k dmg just cause they are relics.

What they should have done is made them gimp at 80, less gimp at 85, even less gimp at 90, then how they are at 95. Then you can't complain as much.

i'd be pissed that i didnt get to rmt my chr

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

I hope you're trolling. If not you are incredibly ignorant.

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1\2 and 1\2 but pay tell how am i ignorant

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Originally Posted by Rohelius

Yeah I Hear a lot of "im gonna do lvl75 damage" which is retarded to even think imo.
If your warrior is gonna suck that bad after the nerf then look at your gear and stop crying over having to put some real thought into your gear selection from now on, but I guess u can't blame a warrior for whinning about having to actually think about those kinda Things lol

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Funny thing is your gear doesn't look too good yourself.

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Originally Posted by Brolic

1\2 and 1\2 but pay tell how am i ignorant

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DRG I'll give you being the most MP efficient healer by proxy, overall efficient? No.

DRK being a tank is lol reasoning. In this day and age when any DD job, including WAR, can tank most NMs effectively, using this as a basis for argument is ridiculous. Would even put WAR at slightly ahead of DRK simply due to Retaliation, as DRK's only tanking tools are... Drain and Dread Spikes. Stop the presses, serious shit up in here.

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Originally Posted by macross

Give me a break, relics are very easy to make too. Take your guild and each person go dynamis and farm you coins and you'll be done in a week too. There's absolutely no reason relics should hit for 5k dmg just cause they are relics.

What they should have done is made them gimp at 80, less gimp at 85, even less gimp at 90, then how they are at 95. Then you can't complain as much.

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I'm not sure what your trying to prove, but if I come to bismark, will you farm dynamis every day, and give me all of your coins? Just for one week. that's all I need.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

DRG I'll give you being the most MP efficient healer by proxy, overall efficient? No.

DRK being a tank is lol reasoning. In this day and age when any DD job, including WAR, can tank most NMs effectively, using this as a basis for argument is ridiculous. Would even put WAR at slightly ahead of DRK simply due to Retaliation, as DRK's only tanking tools are... Drain and Dread Spikes. Stop the presses, serious shit up in here.

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they have catastrophe

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Originally Posted by Brolic

they have catastrophe

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You sir are ignorant. I can tank on any job but saying IT IS A TANK is retarded. A warrior can have a mage as healing so now it's more efficient as a tank and more raw damage. OH WAIT YOU MEAN SOLO. This damn low man solo shit is getting on my nerves when we are moving into more alliance fighting for end game not 1 man armies.

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Originally Posted by Chriscoffey

You sir are ignorant. I can tank on any job but saying IT IS A TANK is retarded. A warrior can have a mage as healing so now it's more efficient as a tank and more raw damage. OH WAIT YOU MEAN SOLO. This damn low man solo shit is getting on my nerves when we are moving into more alliance fighting for end game not 1 man armies.

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I think you guys are missing the point.

There's two possible points: Trolling or Stupid. Pick your poison.

Macross will you stop with the emp vs relic bullshit, take that crap to that other thread...I dislike seeing your relic weapon hating electric slide pass my computer screen.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

There's two possible points: Trolling or Stupid. Pick your poison.

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Well, I think he's basically saying that wars used to just deliver damage, and darks used to have other purposes like tanking with cata. SO really, war is functioning correctly on the DD front. The problem is that WHMs are OP healers, and Keeping hate by spamming magic / abilities doesn't work anymore. So war is actually the only thing not in need of adjustment in the equation.

Don't know where to begin with that post, so not going to bother. So many things wrong though. Saying DRK should tank because of a relic WS? What the fuck

If we want to use relic weaponskills as an average, which is retarded but I'll play your game, Metatron Torment says hai2u.






Unrelated: No such thing as an OP healer btw. With DDing, you can always do better. With healing, it's not about being better, it's about being sufficient; keeping people properly healed in an efficient manner. You cannot keep someone healed passed 100% (well technically Afflatus Solace says otherwise, but meh, it's a liberty that can easily be done without and is overall useless, that's another subject however). Other jobs will either be sufficient, or insufficient. If sufficient, their other abilities would make them more desirable than WHM.

At 75 for example... RDM. Now RDMs whine about wanting it back, when back in the day they whined about having to heal too much.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

Don't know where to begin with that post, so not going to bother. So many things wrong though. Saying DRK should tank because of a relic WS? What the fuck

If we want to use relic weaponskills as an average, which is retarded but I'll play your game, Metatron Torment says hai2u.

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Saying War is OP because Empy WS What the fuck?

anyways, I was just trying to interpret his post.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

Unrelated: No such thing as an OP healer btw. With DDing, you can always do better. With healing, it's not about being better, it's about being sufficient; keeping people properly healed in an efficient manner. You cannot keep someone healed passed 100% (well technically Afflatus Solace says otherwise, but meh, it's a liberty that can easily be done without and is overall useless, that's another subject however). Other jobs will either be sufficient, or insufficient. If sufficient, their other abilities would make them more desirable than WHM.

At 75 for example... RDM. Now RDMs whine about wanting it back, when back in the day they whined about having to heal too much.

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Being sufficient means being able to keep a tank alive, and allow DDs to chip away at an NM. Being OP means that everyone can run in, and go ape shit, and whoever deals the most damage can tank because there is no amount of damage that the WHM can't cure through. Not that I care, but this is one of the reasons that jobs that can't beat war at damage are suffering. Not because warrior has an amazing WS, But because all the other stuff is sorta unimportant now.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Saying War is OP because Empy WS What the fuck?

anyways, I was just trying to interpret his post.

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Because Empy WS is comparable to Relic. I see, I see.

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Being sufficient means being able to keep a tank alive, and allow DDs to chip away at an NM. Being OP means that everyone can run in, and go ape shit, and whoever deals the most damage can tank because there is no amount of damage that the WHM can't cure through. Not that I care, but this is one of the reasons that jobs that can't beat war at damage are suffering. Not because warrior has an amazing WS, But because all the other stuff is sorta unimportant now.

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That isn't WHM being OP. That's abundance of Refresh in Abyssea on top of stats being elevated well beyond god levels (thus requiring the higher tier cures in some cases, same cannot be said for outside of abyssea except for dire circumstances), and Fanatics Drinks and abundance of ethers in Voidwatch along with usually having 2-3 healers per alliance. I'd like to see a single WHM heal an entire Voidwatch Alliance if you set the condition of no temp items allowed. Your argument is severely flawed. Read again what I said, as it's all true.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

That isn't WHM being OP. That's abundance of Refresh in Abyssea on top of stats being elevated well beyond god levels (thus requiring the higher tier cures in some cases, same cannot be said for outside of abyssea except for dire circumstances), and Fanatics Drinks and abundance of ethers in Voidwatch along with usually having 2-3 healers per alliance. I'd like to see a single WHM heal an entire Voidwatch Alliance if you set the condition of no temp items allowed. Your argument is severely flawed. Read again what I said, as it's all true.

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End game events always had 2-3 healers in the past. The difference was that you needed a tank with survival skills. You couldn't just eat massive damage and cure out of it. Why would anyone try to zerg an NM with no temps or buffs? What exactly are you fighting?

if you already have the answer to that question then you already see why WHM isn't OP, you're just looking for a scapegoat. I digress, this isn't a thread about WHM.

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Originally Posted by Camate

There have been some comments asking for other weapon skills to be adjusted so that they are stronger. We actually looked into this, but due to the very large differences in values we determined it would be difficult because of the way it would tie into the balance of power between jobs. (In the case that things stayed the way they are, the chances that future abilities and equipment would have lower stats or simply not be possible to add would become increasingly high.)

The principle behind the current weapon skill adjustment follows the same principles for the aims of why warrior has been adjusted (Restraint, etc.):

1. Prevent becoming overpowered
2. Establish balance between warrior and other jobs (make it easier to balance)

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I was going to toss my hands up on this topic seeing as I'm very bias on the subject being a 9yr career WAR, but the need to chime in on the matter of finding a creative solution to the "Balance between all jobs" problem is far too strong to just be quiet about. I can voice my opinion comfortably without falling victim to my bias however, so this shouldn't come off as a "Warrior's Cry" for no change to the job.

I can't speak for everyone that voiced their wishes to enhance the damage dealt by other jobs in FFXI to the point of WAR and MNK, but when I suggested "Make other weaker Weapon skills stronger", I didn't mean to just increase raw damage values across the board to match that of WARs and MNKs. I'm suggesting something that would require SOME NEW creative work and strategy from the DEVs indeed which could create a sense of balance across every job that would still give players a feeling of pride as to how they deal damage similar to how WARs feel now.

I for one was extremely proud of my Ukkon damage both in and outside of Abyssea because it gave me this feeling of "It's about damn time I was rewarded for all my skill-ups and hard work all these years!" I was happy even though I felt a little guilty that other jobs couldn't reach the same damage numbers, because I felt it was WARs natural "High-level" progression to slaughter enemies with their new found abilities and weapon skills. That's not to say that it was fair, but it did feel really natural to me. That leads us to where we are today though however, the point of how other jobs can achieve the same natural "High-level" progression with their respective weapon skills. My suggestions are as follows:

1. Don't bring Damage Dealing jobs (WAR, MNK) that excel at producing high damage backwards to meet the lackluster numbers of other jobs, because their numbers SHOULD NOT be lackluster in the 1st place. Instead...
2. Create new Job specific abilities/methods that help to "naturally" increase the weapon skill damage potential of other jobs in comparison to that of what WARs and MNKs can produce.
3. Don't encumber any of the FFXI job's ability to produce high damage AT ALL after years of skilling up their respective weapons for their jobs. Instead reward them with new found DEPTH with their weapons that enhance game play and their dedication to perfecting the way they deal damage.
4. (For example) Give a WHM the option to activate a new ability that would unlock their potential to couple their "Buffing" magic to greatly enhance their club weapon skill damage. Alternatively, they could embed their Divine magic into their weapon skills for a time that greatly enhances their potential to deal heavy damage.
5. Give every job this new type of Job specific methods of enhancing their potential to deal heavy damage so NO ONE has to be weaker. No job has to be left out of the wonderful feeling of "It's about damn time I can slaughter something!" Give every player that has worked hard for years to build their characters the reward of true and unique power for their respective jobs.

I don't believe that any job has to be powered down after 25 levels of supposed "new found power". Thanks for listening to our feedback.

As always King, well said and great suggestion.

They're going to go through with this nerf whether we like it or not, the mocchi version of this post, unlike ours, has a bunch of likes.

You guys must not check the JP dev tracker, but they changed the crit rate for both WS's. They are going to be introduced on the test server for testing at some point.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...284#post258284

According to Kincard, it seems they will scale back the crit nerf on UF in exchange for not giving War critical attack bonus III. I don't know about VS though.

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Originally Posted by tyrantsyn

"shaking my head"

So many troll's, enjoying so much anguish.

Hey DEV team there a SS over on FFXIAH right now of a RNG hitting a 20k + Barrage in VW. Wanna pass that along to the higher ups, I think SE may want to pass some balance down the line on that.

ugh

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Find it interesting you want to compare a standard attack mechanic that can also crit, have hidden proc activate(3x damage @ 13% activation, and if follows suit only procs on first hit(checked the profile to find they are a relic gun user)), is against a piercing weak-mob, and also stacks with a low 5% set bonus proc (2x damage) that is upwards of 8 hits (9 with af hands) while using a 71+127dmg weapon vs a 2 fold (possible 4 fold with DA proc) WS that still does upwards of 8k on the very same mob your SS link connects to.

BG has a nice collection of Wars doing 5300-6.4k on Pil and 5400 with Vsmite. Would be nice to come close to that with CdC, but my personal best capped out at 3.2k with averages hovering a good 2/3 of what the mnk or war puts out on average.

Honestly, if you want to bring time this was allowed before nerf came into the picture I'd like to point you in the direction of Rng who used to never have distance penalties. Then SE took out the nerf bat and it took nearly 4 years just to get 2/3 that strength back via the addition of a JA that can be dispelled immediately after being put up.

Sorry, but whether you agree with it or not, this was needed. You just won't be able to put out stupid amounts of DD over every other DD, doesn't mean you aren't still a DD. Worse off, it is sad when people want to say others are lazy cause they can't pull out 3-5k WS even with some of the best gear available to them. If I want to pull out that kind of damage I always have abyssea, but the point of the development cycle was to pull away from easy mode because it was too easy, and to balance the distribution of power through the jobs classified as DD. As it currently stands you have DD, then you have MNK and War in a class of their own. You'll still do more damage than a non-emp mnk or war, you'll still be along the top tier of DD....you just won't be putting out exceedingly high WS as easily, just like the rest of the DD.

This thread is embarrassing.. . .

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Originally Posted by Anewie

This thread is embarrassing.. . .

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So is hiding behind mules.

Looks like the whiners are getting their way, Ukko's Fury appears to be getting bumped down only to 20%, which has Ukko's Fury losing a maximum of 6% of its overall effectiveness.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

Find it interesting you want to compare a standard attack mechanic that can also crit, have hidden proc activate(3x damage @ 13% activation, and if follows suit only procs on first hit(checked the profile to find they are a relic gun user)), is against a piercing weak-mob, and also stacks with a low 5% set bonus proc (2x damage) that is upwards of 8 hits (9 with af hands) while using a 71+127dmg weapon vs a 2 fold (possible 4 fold with DA proc) WS that still does upwards of 8k on the very same mob your SS link connects to.

BG has a nice collection of Wars doing 5300-6.4k on Pil and 5400 with Vsmite. Would be nice to come close to that with CdC, but my personal best capped out at 3.2k with averages hovering a good 2/3 of what the mnk or war puts out on average.
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When I posted that I was in a mind set of wtf'ery. I understand everything that goes into a ws like that, and how RNG has a bonus on that particular mob weakness. Still even IF a WAR is hitting back to back 5k to 6.5k ukko's in this situation it would still take them 3 ws + melee hits to match that kind of damage. From my personal experience with WAR there's no such thing as back to back 5k + ukko's outside abyssea. 5k+ to me is a lucky proc with totally torque out buffs.

Second off let me say I'm glad that RNG can hit those kind of numbers. I'm sure that guy/gal has put a lot of time money and energy into being able to produce that hit. And deserves to get it.

Lastly, those numbers your getting on CDC sound great to me. And hope to see them myself when I get around to finishing my Almace. But like you mention in your first paragraph about base damage, a sword is never going to see or match the numbers on a Ukon GA. So at 3.2k I say your top of the food chain for a sword user.

would love to see those CDC numbers on Quietus...or hell Torcleaver hitting that outside abyssea would be nice

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

Looks like the whiners are getting their way, Ukko's Fury appears to be getting bumped down only to 20%, which has Ukko's Fury losing a maximum of 6% of its overall effectiveness.

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Ugh. I'm disgusted.

I'd say "at least we don't have to hear them crying anymore" but the same people crying over such an minimal, but very necessary nerf, will find something else to whine about.

Really wish SE would grow some balls and release a statement saying: The following jobs "care cups" have emptied
1. SAM
2. WAR
3. MNK
4. BLM
5. WHM
6. DNC

In addition to this, we also plan on looking into fixing the following jobs so they SUCK LESS
1. SMN
2. BST
3. RDM
4. RNG
5. DRK


Not to mention, i'm gonna go on a limb and say BRD, COR need some buffs too. I'm not too sure about cor, but where is BRDs tier 3 elegy, march, mambo, mandrigal? I believe they only got carols with the last update. I'm sure cor is struggling too.

Support jobs just aren't what they used to be, and OMG SMN is a hot mess job. It is really sad lv.70 bps > lvl 90+ ones. Embarrassing.

Whenever I hear someone say their "main" is SMN, or DRK, I just feel so bad for them. Lol, im sure i'm not the only one.

Whining about whining, I love the hypocrisy.

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Originally Posted by Anewie

Ugh. I'm disgusted.

I'd say "at least we don't have to hear them crying anymore" but the same people crying over such an minimal, but very necessary nerf, will find something else to whine about.

Really wish SE would grow some balls and release a statement saying: The following jobs "care cups" have emptied
1. SAM
2. WAR
3. MNK
4. BLM
5. WHM
6. DNC

In addition to this, we also plan on looking into fixing the following jobs so they SUCK LESS
1. SMN
2. BST
3. RDM
4. RNG
5. DRK


Not to mention, i'm gonna go on a limb and say BRD, COR need some buffs too. I'm not too sure about cor, but where is BRDs tier 3 elegy, march, mambo, mandrigal? I believe they only got carols with the last update. I'm sure cor is struggling too.

Support jobs just aren't what they used to be, and OMG SMN is a hot mess job. It is really sad lv.70 bps > lvl 90+ ones. Embarrassing.

Whenever I hear someone say their "main" is SMN, or DRK, I just feel so bad for them. Lol, im sure i'm not the only one.

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cor and rngs hardly need a fixing.

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Originally Posted by Anewie

Ugh. I'm disgusted.

I'd say "at least we don't have to hear them crying anymore" but the same people crying over such an minimal, but very necessary nerf, will find something else to whine about.

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Why are you in here? If you don't want to hear ppl discuss there dislike for the nerf which this thread is for. Go make another thread where you can discuss what a great thing the nerf would be.