Raise the minimum allowable job level in Abyssea from 30 to 70+

Consider this: Everyone insisting a higher minimum cap for abyssea because of level 90 players who don't know there job are telling everyone else how to play the game. Moreso, you are telling the developers to change things to affect how other people play the game. You are trying to make other people play how you want.

I purchased ffxi. I pay my subscription. That deal is between me and SE. There are certain community expectation and points of conduct that should be respected and adhered to. However, these social rules only extend to social situations.

IE> you already have recourse for this kind of play or bad behavior. Stop trying to boss everyone else around and tell them how they can or cannot play a gaime. If you find someone is so appallingly horrible to play with... don't play with them, don't party with them. and Stop trying to tell me how I should play the game. If you don't like it, don't play with me. I'll return the same favor.

I've never told a player "you're doing it wrong".


grrr... thought I hit reply to thread...

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Originally Posted by Dubberrucky

Sadly Fiarila there is no way to distinguish the stupid from smart until you have already wasted your time on them which is never fun.

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which is the same whether they leech in abyssea or not.

I agree believe it or not Xilk. The ratio has just shifted significantly since leeching became so common.

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Originally Posted by Dubberrucky

Sadly Fiarila there is no way to distinguish the stupid from smart until you have already wasted your time on them which is never fun.

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/check <playername> will usually give you a general idea. >_>

Full teal gear and INT wands at 90? Probably a durrhurr.

Scorpion Harness WAR at 90? Your guess is probably accurate.

Full AF1 or AF2 at 90? Probably! Full NQ AF3? Yep yep!

Full Morrigan's on BLM? /nod

/check'ing isn't always foolproof, I'll admit that. But come on. Between seeing the gear choices some people have made, and standing in Port Jeuno and reading some of the /shouts you see... I'm just gonna have to say that you're flat out wrong that it's not possible to determine if someone is stupid before wasting time.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

/check <playername> will usually give you a general idea. >_>

Full teal gear and INT wands at 90? Probably a durrhurr.

Scorpion Harness WAR at 90? Your guess is probably accurate.

Full AF1 or AF2 at 90? Probably! Full NQ AF3? Yep yep!

Full Morrigan's on BLM? /nod

/check'ing isn't always foolproof, I'll admit that. But come on. Between seeing the gear choices some people have made, and standing in Port Jeuno and reading some of the /shouts you see... I'm just gonna have to say that you're flat out wrong that it's not possible to determine if someone is stupid before wasting time.

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Actually if you did that to me you would be for BLM for example I swap 4 sets of gear what you would see may be any one of them causing any of your durrhurr moments. Secondly half the time people reply they are on one of several jobs they have to offer so no still not good enough.

It's really not that hard. Especially to look at the chat log and see what spell you were casting and looking at the gear you're wearing for that spell. I'm not sure why this concept is so difficult. And usually, if someone is well geared, or smartly gear, or at the very least ATTEMPTING to "do it right" on one job, they usually will be on their other jobs. It's like you're trying to make up excuses as to why you wouldn't be able to figure out who is stupid in a vain attempt to lend credibility to the idea that restricting access to Abyssea would help in any way at all (protip: it won't).

I suppose I'll just wrap this up by saying if you're unable to discern the relative intelligence of someone fairly quickly... well, you may not be one of the people that are actively sought out for a smaller group of friends to do stuff with.

I didn't read the 9 pages of this tread to make this reply, and I know that makes me a tool.

But for all that is love and Altana, please do the action in the subject of this thread.

You didn't let people spam -na spells to gain levels by doing nothing in Campaign Battle, why start now?

No thanks @ OP

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Originally Posted by Bahamut_Norm

I didn't read the 9 pages of this tread to make this reply, and I know that makes me a tool.

But for all that is love and Altana, please do the action in the subject of this thread.

You didn't let people spam -na spells to gain levels by doing nothing in Campaign Battle, why start now?

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They aren't starting now, we've been leeching exp for years with chigoe, and astral burns anyway. Don't pretend free exp didn't exist prior to abyssea.

Don't forget the actual exp scrolls, which you could do on your 75 job and then use on your level 20 job!

I forgot about that because it's not even worth mentioning. Since toau we've had the means to leech upwards of 50k+/hr with chigoes, and then astral burns became practical with level sync.

You miss the point Fiarlia you will have already wasted your time by the time you get a worthless person somewhere. You apparently are one of the time wasters I refer to but you are fun to frustrate in forums :)

Stop doing anything that requires random people. You won't have anything left to complain about that way. It's like it's so easy to just completely ignore the solution that's been presented by half a dozen people a couple dozen times now. Get friends. Don't join shouts, or shout for anything. Any half-competent DD can kill EXP mobs in Heroes zones for Dominion Ops at a rate equal or greater to your average EXP alliance, so there's absolutely no need for any "Good" player to put themselves through the kind of anguish you're lamenting over. MNK+WHM can literally duo any NM in the entirety of Abyssea if procs are a non-issue. Even then, you can have a full Red/Blue/Grellow proc set with as low as 6 people (MNK/WAR, WAR/NIN, NIN/WAR, BLU/NIN, BLM/BRD, WHM/whatever).

Make friends. Do things with people you know. Don't deal with randoms in the first place if you're worried about them wasting your time.

OK lets take the social aspect of the game and throw it out the window yeah that sounds like fun.

I may be in the minority in this respect but I join pickup groups because I actually enjoy the social nature of the game. But sure your suggestion is great all of us who don't like leeches should just join chat rooms for offline rpgs gottcha ;) oh wait who will you leech of of if you command us to leave? but then again you want to ignore the other half so preach on we have differing opinions and that's just what they are opinions.

or you could play with friends, instead of random people.

Hmm maybe that's it I have played for 6 years and never managed to make a single friend. Thanks I never realized that.

/end sarcasim

on the other hand all friends start as random people or has everyone here forgotten that little detail?

Well,now a days is very hard to level a job w/o have friends that let you leech from level 30 to 75, since no one wants exp party and either want a unknown leech in their aby group, and more if is a new player that gets his first level 30 and doesnt ever have cruor for key whoring.
It's sad that you need other people to make you the favor and let you get your levels, and that's what happens today.
For us, old players, there is no problem, we have our friends and all our shit done.
But for new players its not fair, and if we want the game to last long time we need to think on new players too as the old players will eventually get tired and leave, and someone has to join the game for replace them.
i'm not against leeching since ive done and i will do it if it remains of course.
But honestly, something has to be made for the low levels, even if it means raise the cap of abyssea to 70 or 75, not returning back to the past of course, they have enhanced the exp already, raise the exp again if needed, make it equal to what we would be getting in abyssea, but make people work for it, if you go with a level 30, that level 30 should be doing something, leeching isnt play the game.
And im sure that exp outside abyssea were as easy to get as inside, old people wouldnt mind in exp outside, or keywhoring is more fun that actually playing the job?

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Originally Posted by Dubberrucky

OK lets take the social aspect of the game and throw it out the window yeah that sounds like fun.

I may be in the minority in this respect but I join pickup groups because I actually enjoy the social nature of the game. But sure your suggestion is great all of us who don't like leeches should just join chat rooms for offline rpgs gottcha ;) oh wait who will you leech of of if you command us to leave? but then again you want to ignore the other half so preach on we have differing opinions and that's just what they are opinions.

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What's funny is the assertion that I need anyone to leech off of.

Regardless, you're talking yourself in circles. Either you enjoy going around with huge groups of random people, which will *Always* lead to the possibility of getting a dud player or two, or you don't want to waste your valuable time on bad players. Meeting new people is a risk. Sometimes people are dumb. Overwhelmingly, people are really dumb. Occasionally you find an intelligent person who shares similar playtimes and goals with you.

You cannot expect the entire playerbase to suddenly become smart. Adding level restrictions to Abyssea will not suddenly make dumb people less dumb. Before Abyssea, people still walked around without weapons skilled up. You had mages running around without even half of their spells. CORs ran around in level 1 bullets, /WHM, with the AF gun and only level 1-40's worth of rolls. BLUs would skip and frolic about with less than half their spells learned. I'm afraid you're going to have to get over it.

Focus less on arbitrary "improvements" to everyone else and more on improving yourself as a player.

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Originally Posted by Dubberrucky

OK lets take the social aspect of the game and throw it out the window yeah that sounds like fun.

I may be in the minority in this respect but I join pickup groups because I actually enjoy the social nature of the game. But sure your suggestion is great all of us who don't like leeches should just join chat rooms for offline rpgs gottcha ;) oh wait who will you leech of of if you command us to leave? but then again you want to ignore the other half so preach on we have differing opinions and that's just what they are opinions.

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I don't get it, you want to socialize, but you absolutely hate the results of socializing.

Socializing with 'tards is frustrating, okay fair enough... but you're saying you basically enjoy doing things with randoms you've never met, and yet expect that they'll mostly be sufficiently intelligent to not waste your time. I don't know what world you're living in, but neither the real one or any virtual one has such a population.

The old method sucked, what it meant was you spent all day looking for groups because there simply weren't enough players to do what you wanted, and that RDM that *would* have completed your group couldn't afford refresh or dispel and wanted to melee. At least now you can afford to boot whoever whenever because you know that there's a large enough pool of people to choose from.

Oh btw, this stuffs so easy you can literally leech off yourself and level a job in a day soloing dominion ops from a different account. So no tears will be shed if the people who want to level slow were to disappear.

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Originally Posted by Dubberrucky

Hmm maybe that's it I have played for 6 years and never managed to make a single friend. Thanks I never realized that.

/end sarcasim

on the other hand all friends start as random people or has everyone here forgotten that little detail?

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Or they could be a friend of a friend. That is a slightly higher rank than random person.

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Originally Posted by Arcalimo

Well,now a days is very hard to level a job w/o have friends that let you leech from level 30 to 75, since no one wants exp party and either want a unknown leech in their aby group, and more if is a new player that gets his first level 30 and doesnt ever have cruor for key whoring.
It's sad that you need other people to make you the favor and let you get your levels, and that's what happens today.
For us, old players, there is no problem, we have our friends and all our shit done.
But for new players its not fair, and if we want the game to last long time we need to think on new players too as the old players will eventually get tired and leave, and someone has to join the game for replace them.
i'm not against leeching since ive done and i will do it if it remains of course.
But honestly, something has to be made for the low levels, even if it means raise the cap of abyssea to 70 or 75, not returning back to the past of course, they have enhanced the exp already, raise the exp again if needed, make it equal to what we would be getting in abyssea, but make people work for it, if you go with a level 30, that level 30 should be doing something, leeching isnt play the game.
And im sure that exp outside abyssea were as easy to get as inside, old people wouldnt mind in exp outside, or keywhoring is more fun that actually playing the job?

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And bingo someone gets the whole point of the discussion :)

btw Greatgaurdian, Seis, and rog (who posted else ware that he doesn't even play but meh) you have all still missed the point is this is all opinion.

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Originally Posted by Dubberrucky

rog (who posted else ware that he doesn't even play but meh)

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Is that important? I played from 2003, up until a month or two ago, and have been keeping up with new things.

because its rather silly to be so defensive about something that doesn't effect you but that's your choice so meh not worth to take your opinion into account but out of courtesy point it out to you as well that you still missed the point.

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Originally Posted by Dubberrucky

btw Greatgaurdian, Seis, and rog (who posted else ware that he doesn't even play but meh) you have all still missed the point is this is all opinion.

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Rog doesn't recognise the validity of opinions other than his own, so sometimes he fails to see the point.

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Originally Posted by Dubberrucky

because its rather silly to be so defensive about something that doesn't effect you but that's your choice so meh not worth to take your opinion into account but out of courtesy point it out to you as well that you still missed the point.

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Right, clearly because i'm not playing right now, means my opinion is worthless.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

I'm assuming you're trying to troll me, but instead of getting angry I'll just explain.

1) Stupid people are everywhere.

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And you're missing my point. It's as if intelligence is actually a defect or a disability in our society.

(FAR beyond FFXI)

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

2) Leveling in any way (leeching, traditional, level sync, astral flow burn, TPburn, SC+MB, campaigning, EXP Scroll questing) will not alter their stupidity. Pretending it will is in and of itself, stupid, as there's no way to raise a persons intelligence level (significantly, anyway).

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But there's at least a chance these people might get a few blunt blows to the head and be shown actually how to play a game rather than get to level 75 BLM with ZERO magic skill. (*cough*RMT*cough*)

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

3) Stop playing and associating with the stupid people, and your problem will be solved. Smart people, regardless of how they leveled, will have leveled their skills, gotten their spells, and spend extra time getting quest weapon skills and so on and so forth. Any whining and complaining you are doing can be solved by not playing with the stupid people.

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You're missing the point.

There are SO MANY STUPID PEOPLE that to not associate with them means dissociating oneself from pretty much everything, and, again, that goes far beyond FFXI.

I couldn't play FFXI without associating with stupid people. Hence, my blacklist is straining to the maximum.

My point is that, no matter how many stupid people you think there are, there are far more than you expect.

actually i think it should be level 50 or 60 to enter abyssea , i think thats a fair number then maybe we would have better players in the game =P

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Originally Posted by Dubberrucky

And bingo someone gets the whole point of the discussion :)

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Except its not. They just doubled XP. Sorry even if you have no friends and have to solo the whole thing, exp up is not that hard anymore.

furthermore, you are taking far too narrow of a tact here.

You are prescribing how everyone else should play to meet how you want it.

You are assuming you are arguing w/ people who want to leech.
I leeched my support jobs from 37 up to 50. Why? I don't want to re-gear jobs I am not going to play except for support jobs.

I want to be able to leech more support jobs up, but even moreso, I want to use my AoE nuking blu to help friends out and help them up a few jobs.

You are going to run into the same problem burning a level 75 job straight up to 90 also. They are going to be underskilled, and under geared.

I also took by bluemage up from level 63 in abyssea. I was decently geared at 63, but by 75 I had garbage, at 77 I had a decent base set (aurore) and the rest was garbage. I had plenty of good atma though. I played Healer as blu/whm at that level. At 77 i switched to melee.

Because of my atma, I was plenty effective for a full alliance for exp. It took a little bit of work to finish out my spell sets and finish my skill ups... I suffered from all the downsides to leveling quickly in abyssea vs leveling slowly. However, I was very useful to the alliances because I was smart about how I played.

Level floor increase for abyssea will NOT change this. It is not worth putting a needless time sync in front of the majority of players.

thats true exp is doubled and skill ups are easier i just hope either exp gets reworked on abyssea so that its not as important. Also i remember seeing a post where someone said , i dont want to level the old way ....... playing the game is the old way.

/sigh if this Dynamis update happens there will be Dynaburns for those in between Abyssburns >_> and along with Dynaburns *gasp* ninja lotters, people entering purely to leech the win & gtfo...sad to admit... a DL mpk would be kinda funny...but at the same time a nuisance...just in general bad.

they double our exp gain, remove the restriction on FoV yet people still wanna cheat because its just not good enough for the spoiled little babies because leveling up the "old way" is still "tedious" along with more & more QQ-ing when this game is & will keep being easy mode...though its been around before abyssea ever since abysea come out FFXI's gamer attitude has gotten more & more...well stupid.

now for Topic *if* the actually do raise the cap 65 is also good its the same as Dynamis...besides Dynamis itself with become yet another abyssea anyway.

I agree with Starcade on not just this but on many other posts he put up. (I know that alone will have me get trolled lol)

will you all stop crying about the old ffxi no one cares about lvling up low lvl jobs thats why. do you wish to seek for weeks when you can just get 90 in a day or two then try being on a help full job like whm or war. the fun is at end when the job is at full power 90-99 full gear etc hope this gets locked by SE l like the last one for wasteing time. if the cap is 75 for abyssea why a new player buy the 3 abyssea he then give up because of no exp partys at lower lvls costing SE a loss 42-55$ if the player was on for a month or two your asking SE to stop makeing $ off the abyssea exp thats why it will Never be locked by lvl it cost them a net loss in $ for the company. so get over it

I have been playing for about 5 years now I think. The exp when I started, was 50 for DC and less for EP. I was actually one of those who solo'd up to 30. Now that was tough back then. It made me start dual boxing. Just recently, I started some new characters and within a month I have a couple jobs at 50 and 40 and I'm just duoing. I was actually in a party in Qufim with just one of my characters and wow, the new EXP is awesome.

So there have been a lot of changes over the years, level sync, FoV and now Aby. Personally I don't really care if people leech. People have always leeched in some form or another. I think Aby has made it easier, but whatever. Also, there has always been that wanting to get to cap so you could do the endgame stuff and I can understand that wanting. You join a linkshell, but everyone is doing high level stuff but you can't. Speeding to 90 allows you to hang with your friends and I get that.

For me though, the enjoyment of playing a game is for the memories, from start to finish. There isn't much memory in going from 30-90 in a one day, but that's just what I think. I do realize though, that a lot of people will say that the memories start at 90, which, hey if that's what you want, that's okay too. As for events, if you are doing an important event, I don't think it's too hard to just stick with your friends you have made and trust to do it. Also, there are certain jobs you can take where there is not much skill needed. On the flip side, you can still do other parties etc with "Newish" people at 90. If anything, give them advice on how to play the job better, if they are struggling. We all have to learn our jobs. Some of us are lucky enough to have mentors. On a side note, leveling the old way did help learn the job. I'm not saying everyone learned it, but it did help because you learned techniques through experience.

But in the end, none of this really matters because the only real important thing is that we are supposed to be playing to have fun. There will always be disappointments in life. It doesn't matter if it is online or not. You can't let others take away from your enjoyment. I play to have fun. I come home from work, pop on the game and do whatever sounds like fun. We all, should be able to do what we want in the game that makes us happy. I mean that's why we pay to play ;)

Sorry if this post is a little scattered, just got done reading all 11 pages of this and my mind was all over the place :D

Ultimately raising the level requirement for Abyssea to 70+ is what would be best for FFXI players as a whole. Most people that like the current system simply like it because of selfish reasons, and I suppose I can't blame them for wanting an easy way to XP that but thats not how the game should work. Having something that helps the few but which has a direct negative effect on EVERYONE else is obviously bad for the game.

Personally I don't care if abyssea leeching makes bad players, not my problem or care. What I do care about is that simply put, the leeching problem now causes massive problems for everyone else that plays this game, especially new players or returnees. As a development team I would assume your primary goal is to not lose new and returning players and if this is the case, Abyssea leeching should be a very big concern for you to fix asap.

Everyone likes to be able to gain XP in parties(level sync was added to boost this), the fact is though that the vast majority of players don't want and indeed never will make their own parties. The minority that would and used to make parties now instead build an Abyssea alliance or leech off friends. This means there are no more xp invites or parties being made for everyone else, therefor new players without any contacts can no longer get invited to XP and instead have to solo to 75 using FoV. This also has a knock on effect that these players can't really make social contacts and get into linkshells as they used to. you could say that is the problem of the players but honestly as a dev team i'm sure you know people will not change their ways and instead they will have their flag up unsuccessfully for a long time and in the end most probably quit cause they just cannot get parties to level.

If a Dev reads this I hope you understand how bad this is for anyone trying to gain XP, please raise the minimum level to enter Abyssea to 70 and make the game work better for everyone.

The whole XP system took a nosedive after abyssea and it having the min level req of 30 is the main reason, it's obvious the devs are trying to counter this with double xp etc but until you fix the problem I mentioned nothing is going to change.

*before anyone mentions Astral flow parties that is nothign like the same thing, very limited amounts of groups can work effectively doing AB due to limited workable zones and they take a lot more effort to setup. Continually deleveling sync mules, having set jobs etc etc. Aby leeching just requires being able to shout in port jeuno which as I say means anyone that has the inclination to form a normal pt will just do that instead.

I don't know, since the exp boost, I have actually been seeing parties in dunes, qufim, jungles etc. Also, as soon as a new version update coupled with a level cap increase comes out, everyone will be busy getting to new cap and the new players and returnees will still suffer. The positive side is, SE changed the FoV limit and doubled exp so soloing has become a whole lot easier. It's not the greatest, but sure beats what it used to be.

The amount of pure stupidity in this thread is amazing.

1> Leeching does not make you a terrible player.
2> Killing Crabs and Birds for 70 levels does not make you a good player.
3> When I'm not leeching myself or a friend, I do invite random people to leech, provided they bring keys. A long Exp Party in Abyssea consumes a large amount of Cruor on keys, that I would rather have someone else blow in exchange for free exp.
4> SE offered me these 3 products. They told me, if I purchased them, I would be able to access all of it's content at level 30 or higher. SE also warned me, that although I only need to be level 30 to access the content, that the battles are intended for much higher levels.

Changing it now would just piss off a lot of people.
You would not see an increase in low-level parties. They have always been few in number.
A very large majority of jobs being leeched, are jobs they never intended to level the normal way.

Another small detail people forget to mention: Leechers don't get in for free, usually.
Keys are a bit costly, depending on the length of the party. Sure, sometimes you end up making about the same amount back, but everyone else in the party made a profit in Cruor rather than breaking even.
And, if you're leading the alliance to leech, you have to manage the alliance, which in Abyssea is a full-time job. [People love to AFK, fall asleep, randomly leech, leave randomly] You also sometimes have to key chests along with that.

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Originally Posted by Kari

A long Exp Party in Abyssea consumes a large amount of Cruor on keys, that I would rather have someone else blow in exchange for free exp.

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This is pretty valid. If someone is willing to spend their own Cruor on this, then why not.

I wouldn't say that peoples opinions are stupid though. We all have our own feelings and ideas ;)

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Originally Posted by rog

Why are you guys saying a year to get to 75? It was faster in 2003. That is not even close to reasonable in 2011, not even for a brand new player.

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Because not everyone plays 5 hours a day. Try getting 1-75 outside of abyssea either solo or in party (that you won't find anyway), It will take you that much time. You don't know what casual means.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Because not everyone plays 5 hours a day. Try getting 1-75 outside of abyssea either solo or in party (that you won't find anyway), It will take you that much time. You don't know what casual means.

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In your opinion, how much time would a casual player play in a week?

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Originally Posted by rog

That's a weird way to spell "awesome".

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You're still going for that 100k post count?