Please nerf monk and samurai so other DDs can play

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

This part is exactly the problem with players that I'm talking about.

Players are so dumb they want to exchange one job that plays one way with another that plays completely differently while using the exact same cookie cutter strategy they copied from someone else and are outraged when it doesn't work the same.

You don't just "replace SAMs and RNGs with BSTs" and play the same way. You also have to adjust your strategy, which requires actually thinking a bit. And that is what most players are incapable of doing, hence the exclusion of jobs that don't fit in the current bandwagon strategy.

This is one of the major reasons why I personally don't bother with end game anymore, just can't deal with just how cowardly unimaginative players can be. A loss or two and you always have people whining about party composition and rage quitting good parties, even if said parties always end up winning consistently later on. And the same can be said about gear "requirements" and BiS bullshit, but that's just another symptom of the same disease.

But anyway, about SAM being overpowered or not it really doesn't mean anything, because there will always be a job that is considered OP no matter what. And no amount of tweaking will ever fix that. If SAM is nerfed another job will take it's place in the OP hall of fame the next week and nothing will have changed at all. Because again, the problem are the players.

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Efficacy

Why bring a weaker dd, as opposed to a broken one? Sure ppl can try/do the bst strat, however, the chance of success is much higher with sams or rngs, because they are superior dd. Bottomline is this; sam and rng > bst. This is what the argument is about. Sams are better dd than bst; regardless if you get imaginative and clear a delve with dead ppl and red hp. Pets have crap acc and weak ready moves; why bring corsairs to buff them as opposed to a superior REMD dd? Sam and rng are better dd than bst and nearly everyone else; this is the argument. As a result, they are more efficient in endgame.

Pet COR buffs are so dumb. They're exactly the same as the player equivalents but they just add Pet: To the front of them. Just make COR buffs Pet && player.

Unfortunately everything Camate says after the bolded part... is a terrible idea. Our ready moves are on an incredibly long timer... I mean Sic? SO LONG. It's just nuts that SAMs are pooping out weaponskills and my pet can use a move every minute or so? Ready moves would have to do 50K damage to even begin to get close with those timers.

Mochi is crap. It's slightly better than nothing, but not much more. Nevermind that it's YET ANOTHER way that pet players - BSTs in particular, are supposed to enrich crafters.

New pets are going to be useless. They already confirmed that they won't add any monsters that don't suck. As much as I am greatly looking forward to another sheep... um... no I'm not actually.

They clearly don't understand what our jobs need to be more powerful. Gear with pet stats on it that doesn't sacrifice ANY stats for the master. Pets with a higher level than current player ilevel (they need level correction or they suck), Pets taking DRASTICALLY less damage from AOE (unless they are main target) than players and immune to most/all status effects from AOE. Pets getting all party buffs. Pets able to be cured by outside players not just items/abilities on a really long timer.

If SE did all of that, then we'd at least suck a tiny bit less... but we'd still be weaker DDs than SAMs

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Originally Posted by WoW

Efficacy

Why bring a weaker dd, as opposed to a broken one? Sure ppl can try/do the bst strat, however, the chance of success is much higher with sams or rngs, because they are superior dd. Bottomline is this; sam and rng > bst. This is what the argument is about. Sams are better dd than bst; regardless if you get imaginative and clear a delve with dead ppl and red hp. Pets have crap acc and weak ready moves; why bring corsairs to buff them as opposed to a superior REMD dd? Sam and rng are better dd than bst and nearly everyone else; this is the argument. As a result, they are more efficient in endgame.

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Efficacy? Yeah it's so efficient that SE had to make severe Enmity adjustments to placate the whining about tanks not being able to hold hate off DDs going all out on fights and getting themselves and the party killed as a result. Hate used to somewhat balance damage output because if you went too hard too soon you'd get yourself killed or become an unsustainable MP sponge. That is why in the past in those cases DDs would hold back and only go full on to finish the fights.

Also, in those cases jobs that are able to manage damage output and enmity better would have a more sustained damage over time, and coincidentally pet jobs are pretty good at doing just that. Less flashy for sure, but just as effective. In other words, SAM and RNG haven't changed much, it's just that now they can go nuts without getting killed as easy as before thanks to recent adjustments.

But to call that "efficient" is as applicable as calling an 8 cylinder car from the 70's more fuel efficient than an electric car just because it can go up a hill faster.


PS > And about those BST setup barely clearing the content, that would only happen at first while you got the strategy down, then it would be just as simple as the bandwagon strategies. It has always been that way.

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

I don't understand how enmity works. At all.

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Yeah, that's not how enmity works. There's a fundamental problem with it.

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Originally Posted by Balloon

I put words on the people's mouth but don't make a proper post so maybe I can sound smarter.

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I can see the fun in doing this. :D

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

Efficacy? Yeah it's so efficient that SE had to make severe Enmity adjustments to placate the whining about tanks not being able to hold hate off DDs going all out on fights and getting themselves and the party killed as a result. Hate used to somewhat balance damage output because if you went too hard too soon you'd get yourself killed or become an unsustainable MP sponge. That is why in the past in those cases DDs would hold back and only go full on to finish the fights.

Also, in those cases jobs that are able to manage damage output and enmity better would have a more sustained damage over time, and coincidentally pet jobs are pretty good at doing just that. Less flashy for sure, but just as effective. In other words, SAM and RNG haven't changed much, it's just that now they can go nuts without getting killed as easy as before thanks to recent adjustments.

But to call that "efficient" is as applicable as calling an 8 cylinder car from the 70's more fuel efficient than an electric car just because it can go up a hill faster.


PS > And about those BST setup barely clearing the content, that would only happen at first while you got the strategy down, then it would be just as simple as the bandwagon strategies. It has always been that way.

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Most lvl99s know how to manage their dd output, hence nobody was talking about enmity. This is what we are saying: Sam and Rng > bst. The enmity is obviously a non-issue, because sams and rngs are in high demand. We are discussing job balance, not enmity; obviously too much damage draws enmity. I don't recall mentioning enmity or resenting that..........

Sam and RNG > Bst; this is what I am referring to. No clue were this other stuff is coming from "Shrugs"

If you are just defending your post; i will back off and let you get the last word. If enmity was a big deal; sam and rngs would not be in high demand. DDs are there to deal damage. We learned how to manage enmity in the dunes. Having weaker dds equates to longer battles and tp feed which results in mp sponge regardless brah.

If dude's point was that cause our damage is split we are better in terms of enemity... lol... we are better in terms of enemity because we deal a fraction of the damage of other jobs... that's not actually a desirable trait in a DD. Now, if we dealt 90 percent (even) of the damage as a SAM & with the split enemity - yes I agree we could be useful in some set ups... but right now it's almost like taking half a DD instead of a whole one when you take a pet job. With bosses with devastating moves, that's never gonna be desirable.

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Originally Posted by Olor

If dude's point was that cause our damage is split we are better in terms of enemity... lol... we are better in terms of enemity because we deal a fraction of the damage of other jobs... that's not actually a desirable trait in a DD. Now, if we dealt 90 percent (even) of the damage as a SAM & with the split enemity - yes I agree we could be useful in some set ups... but right now it's almost like taking half a DD instead of a whole one when you take a pet job. With bosses with devastating moves, that's never gonna be desirable.

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Yea, that is what I got from his post too "Shrugs"

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Originally Posted by Afania

Ah, this isn't the issue of "SAM can't wait 1 sec to WS". This is the issue of certain way to do skill chain parse higher than another way; 1 single SAM doing multi step SC parse higher than 2 SAM doing fudo fudo light. Several groups claimed their kill speed increased after changing DD to BLM.

Stop claiming X job sucked before you try, and stop claiming others are trolling just because they presented an option you haven't try. Some BLM claimed to parse 85% of SAM in yorcia, not sure what's so bad about 85% in situations you can't WS.

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So the reason for including a BLM is just to stay out of the way to allow the SAM to be even more broken? That really speaks volumes for the BLM job. ::eye roll:: Pretty much any job that can do decent damage without needed to use a WS that will interrupt a skill chain would do.

I can't help but call trolling when you compare thf being slightly better in dynamis to mnk being "slightly" better in delve. And you can try all the options you want to it won't change the reality of job hierarchy in this game.

SAM has:
high tp output
high primary target damage
high defense

SAM does not have:
a way to attack multiple targets(unless you counter which is random at best)
--in other words no AoE or cone attacks(hence the need for high defense and damage)

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

So the reason for including a BLM is just to stay out of the way to allow the SAM to be even more broken?

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Nothing wrong with that....SE adjusted SC dmg so MB get a place. If there's some sort of MB dmg+ % roll for BLM it'd be even stronger.

Not sure why the above point is relevant in this discussion anyways, sounds like a ton of SAM hate.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

Pretty much any job that can do decent damage without needed to use a WS that will interrupt a skill chain would do.

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No. I don't know any job that can do 85% of SAM without using WS to interrupt SAM's multi-step double light SC......besides BLM. That's due to the way SC works, you can't WS right after last WS for SC, you need to wait for a few sec. If you wait then you're wasting your TP, when you wait in a 3 DD setup you're wasting 5~6 free WS for nothing, thus lowering the output.

Note that a single SAM solo SC can do yorcia in 25 min. By logic a pt with 3 SAM should clear yorcia in 8~10 min because you have triple amount of output. In reality unless you have SAMs all split up on different target, most of the 3 DD setup clear yorcia in about 20 min, may be slightly less if everything is perfect, but certainly not 8~10 min lv without splitting up.

That proved a large amount of dmg are wasted when you have more than 1 melee in the pt and it's more logical to use a BLM over another SAM.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

I can't help but call trolling when you compare thf being slightly better in dynamis to mnk being "slightly" better in delve. And you can try all the options you want to it won't change the reality of job hierarchy in this game.

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Not sure what's wrong with MNK "slightly" better than THF in delve. I didn't say THF is stronger than MNK, I only said MNK isn't THAT much stronger than THF. At least before WS update it wasn't, highly doubt WS update changed much.

This is one of the old morimar parse I had with THF and MNK friends. I forgot if it's all T4 5+ tojil or just tojil.

THF: 174598(36.0%)
MNK: 173030(35.7%)

Note that the MNK isn't the best MNK ever, but he's still better than 80% of PUG 119 MNK you can find on this server.

This another morimar parse against another friend before WS update. Note that the WS update probably pushes SAM's output a lot higher than it was.

THF: 255795(39.8%)
SAM: 228083(35.5%)

I didn't notice a kill speed decrease with THF in pt, if anything it was faster than most of 3x MNK tojil PUG on my server. Personally I pt with quit a lot of DD on my server but idk any MNK that can do double amount of dmg THF can do.

Note that this isn't ceizak, it's morimar. Back when we did Ceizak with 18 man, another THF almost always parse top v.s other none piercing DDs.

I'm sorry if you think THF isn't a VIABLE DD in delve on target that doesn't have piercing resist. It may be slightly lower than top MNK, but it's certainly not A LOT lower to a point to make me sound like a troll.

The reality is, MNK's output is overestimated by the community. Just because every PUG /shout for MNK and SAM only, doesn't mean other job is THAT bad.

Also, just because I said THF can parse high and perfectly viable in delve, doesn't make me a troll.

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Originally Posted by Afania

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No, it has nothing to do with BLM and everything to do with SAM. It's not SAM hate. It's just the truth. If your idea of showing that one job is not in need of attention is by saying "it's a great choice because you can invite it to not get in the way of the SAM who is putting up ridiculous numbers," then we have different views of what job balance really is. I'm also dubious of this 85% claim if you are saying that 1 SAM can clear Yorcia in 20 minutes.

I'd assume SCH should be able to put up similar numbers then. You also spent a whole paragraph talking about eased damage in a 3 melee set up but that BLM and SAM is superior. Who took that 3rd spot? How would that compare to 2DD? And maybe the party will fight different targets so your argument collapse there too.

All your parse numbers are not persuasive because we don't know how well geared/skilled those players were and you already admitted that the MNK wasn't geared that well. But if you want to keep putting up parses showing thf out damaging SAM and MNK, then have at it. I'll let people who play those jobs weigh on on it.

And don't make up things I didn't say in order to make your point seem more valid. Please show me where I said thf isn't a viable dd for delve. You can't because I didn't. I'm laughing at you comparing dynamis to delve as if the two are even remotely similar interns of game balance or importance.

And for the record, you can clear delve with any job in this game. No one is saying that isn't the case. What we are saying is that there are clearly some jobs that are above others on most content, so why would you bother with the "other" jobs.

And as an aside, focusing on your parse numbers ignores the other things that a job brings to a party like survivability.

I apologize for the typos that are bound to be in this post. #iphoneautocorrect

That's also in a tojil run, people brought mnk there before the influx of 119 and the nerf for survivability, not damage. I'm sure some jobs can compete, but again it comes down to having it be more difficult, requiring better team work, more luck, better gear, more concentration. Possible and Viable aren't the same thing. But that's Tojil, it's hardly the height of importance. I've ran on pup in Delve 1 and won. We do it for giggles.

I mean christ, look at populations, we see people abandoning runs because there's no brds/plds/rngs. That's not conducive to fun in a game with a dwindling playerbase. They've made headway with that. GEO is more viable than it once was as a buffer. So why can't other DDs become more viable?

I'm sure this is becoming a bit circular, but I'll repeat what I said before. Yes it's possible to clear, but there's a disparity in difficulty when using those other jobs. I'm guilty of this, if someone said they were setting up a Yorica run with a THF PUP BST BRD WHM COR, or whatever you'd go with, I just wouldn't go. There's such a high chance of failure.

^^I agree;

This month will most likely be my last hurrah, unless things change. I really have no issue walking away from this unbalanced/dated game; may I add the most unresponsive producers I have ever seen. Sub is already "to be cancelled" (So i will not forget, barely log in).There are better MMOs out there atm (Imo personally, which is why i log on sparsely), and in 2015 and beyond, SE is gonna face some serious comp from other MMOS. Ppl are already dropping out, as Balloon alluded to and I understand why; I barely long on as it is. Imo, I expect XIV to face the same fate in a year or two; same company, same traits. Died once, just saying.

With that being said, I do agree with Ray as it pertains to the playerbase; imo, they are robots, copy > paste > repeat. Not saying reading a strat, tips, etc are wrong, i mean, you cannot blame them due to the enormous gap between dds. Imo, XI enforces the robot mentality with this insane dd hierarchy. At least XIV was fairly balanced when i played it waaaay back when (However, I read that the XIV playerbase resemble robots as-well).

I think the only thing that's kept me around is still having friends who play, the chance meeting of new friends when I get over my shyness to shout for myself, and the fun of socializing on the forums (and I'm going to miss conversing with those who stop subbing).
But I've also questioned this imbalance BS I pay for every month, the deadness of my server, the cookie-cutter setups that prevent anything from actually happening (because fewer people have those princess jobs or are online), the lack of Monstrosity updates, etc.
I don't know if it's school time or vacation time or what, but I swear things get quieter and quieter, linkshells are emptying, endgame shouts are few and only center on BRD/WHM/RNG ... also people's time and gil-pockets are so precious that there's often little incentive to team-up anymore.
Many people have already nailed it by saying that all (or more of) the jobs need to be viable so we can fill parties, and/or content needs to be balanced so as to not favor a certain set-up only.
Even Disney Infinity is starting to look more appealing for next month ... because Loki. ;p

I think a lot of the problem is the community. It's not all of the problem. They make changes to something, admittedly late, and it gets lambasted by the community. They tried to correct the imbalance with REM and people screamed and cried. They release a +4 bard weapon and we once again see the tears. It's a balancing act, and they often succumb more to popular demand.

I often think they develop things in a vacuum too. We've not got an augment system based randomly on stones, when we could have easily used evoliths to remove some of the randomness of the system. But they created that and abandoned it. Pankration, Synergy, Monstrosity - All abandoned. The annoying thing about this is that they don't reincorporate any of these old systems, we're seeing the same now with trusts, rather than take what they're doing with that AI and extend it to Pets/Fellows.

And Skirmish 119 weapons aren't that great. So that's a new system that won't get done much. I just want them to have more understanding of how the game is played.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

No, it has nothing to do with BLM and everything to do with SAM. It's not SAM hate. It's just the truth. If your idea of showing that one job is not in need of attention is by saying "it's a great choice because you can invite it to not get in the way of the SAM who is putting up ridiculous numbers," then we have different views of what job balance really is. I'm also dubious of this 85% claim if you are saying that 1 SAM can clear Yorcia in 20 minutes.

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If you read my previous post I do agree that SAM is OP, but that's the only job that's OP atm. MNK is just fine, it's certainly not OP in terms of output, with recent HP adjustment one of it's major advantage is also gone. MNK is more of "easy to play job for casuals" than OP.

SAM solo clearing in 25(not 20) min is more of an issue of OP SC dmg, less about SAM's actual dmg. When half of the dmg came from SC, that's how the game works, having more than a couple of melee ended up wasting spot.

BLM did 85% of SAM came from the number from BG, and it doesn't seem unrealistic at all due to yorcia kinda favor magic dmg on T3, 4 and 5. I can easily do 85% of SAM on COR with 1 darksday bonus if not counting SC bonus, with double darksday bonus I can parse as high or outparse most SAM in yorcia on COR with 8~9k WS avg. It's the extra SC dmg that really made the difference so SAM pulled ahead. I can't do self double light/dark on COR, my most powerful WS leaden salute can't solo lv3/4 SC, while SAM's most powerful WS fudo can double light. Despite I can do over 85% or more dmg than a SAM with my melee/WS dmg with darksday bonus, SAM still parse higher with better SC dmg.

Also depend on your support/DT- set capability you can probably AoE adds on BLM, which also pushes parse higher.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

I'd assume SCH should be able to put up similar numbers then. You also spent a whole paragraph talking about eased damage in a 3 melee set up but that BLM and SAM is superior. Who took that 3rd spot? How would that compare to 2DD? And maybe the party will fight different targets so your argument collapse there too.

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Ideally, you can have each SAM solo 1 NM and reduce the kill time a lot, in reality it's harder to pull off with most groups. It does require more team work than your avg "kill A, move on, kill B, move on then kill C" PUG.

You can try that if you want, since I don't have a static/close friend and I often do delve with random ppl with low trust/team work between each other, plus subpar quality mages, it's just creating more pain in the pass to do that.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

All your parse numbers are not persuasive because we don't know how well geared/skilled those players were and you already admitted that the MNK wasn't geared that well. But if you want to keep putting up parses showing thf out damaging SAM and MNK, then have at it. I'll let people who play those jobs weigh on on it.

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I didn't say the MNK wasn't geared well, I said he's better than 80% of MNK on my server, how is that "not geared well"? I can only name less than 10 MNK that can compete or beat him, none of them can do double amount of dmg, more like minor win if they win.

I've done many 2~3 min tojil without removing the attack down aura, I don't think they're gimp. If THF is a major hindrance in terms of output I wouldn't invite THF to begin with.

Either way, since you gladly admit that you don't play the job, your opinion about the job doesn't matter as well.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

And don't make up things I didn't say in order to make your point seem more valid. Please show me where I said thf isn't a viable dd for delve. You can't because I didn't. I'm laughing at you comparing dynamis to delve as if the two are even remotely similar interns of game balance or importance.

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I'm not sure what's wrong with comparing dynamis to delve when both are content in FFXI? For the entire thread I see ppl say X job suck, Y job suck, because for some reason they only do delve 24/7 so their jobs are "useless", seriously?

Currently I spend 40% of my time doing CP farm, 20% of my time doing gil/PW farm, 30% of my time on delve and 10% on higher tier BC. Delve is only 30% of my time in FFXI.

Everyday when I log on, my lsmate/friends are either:

1. Farming dyna/salvage/ein for relic or mythic. They spend 70% of their time doing that.

2. Making skirmish pt.

3. Making VW pt.

4. In rare occasion, doing WoE. (Which may be a content favors pet job, mind you)

5. Making AA MR pt for the mask, which doesn't favor SAM if you do D/VD.

6. Delve.....they spend less than half of their time doing delve, even if they have proper delve jobs.

From my personal observation, for at least 90% of the player, delve is only a small part of their FFXI life. Even if they have SAM MNK BRD WHM leveled, they still often spend slightly more time in other content, especially dyna/salvage, which requires THF for max efficiency.

So I really don't understand the logic behind entire QQ thread about SAM being OP when majority of the player probably only need SAM less than 50% of time in FFXI. Sure, SAM needs a nerf, but it's not like if SE doesn't nerf SAM, other jobs would be completely useless since some of the jobs aren't designed to be a real DD. Ppl yelled at THF being useless then proceed to pretend AA/DM /shout for THF doesn't exist and the majority of population isn't spending most of their time farming dyna. Ppl QQ about pet job being useless, while I agree that pet jobs need a buff it's still used in other content. Ppl QQ about RUN being useless but I see shadowlord BC /shout for RUN pretty often. Ppl QQ about BLM being useless, while JP skirmish pt often insist to bring a BLM.

And whenever I pointed out X job isn't completely useless in other content that's not delve, ppl disagree with my opinion because only delve counts, every other content that's not delve doesn't count.

Grass is greener on the other side of fence, isn't it? Unless everyone spend 90% of their time in delve, all argument about X job doesn't get invite in delve is invalid IMO.

They really need to add up all the bitching about "x job QQ" and "server merge QQ" and take a look at why people are upset.
I know I shouldn't complain about all the stuff they have added month after month; at the same time I don't think I'm reaping much from it and so I come out with more disappointment than excitement.
I'll be the first to admit that part of it is me - scheduling, shyness, wanting to be a follower not a leader. But I'm not the only one to remark that Valefor is quiet, and I'm seeing posts from different servers over and over saying the same thing.
People are saying, "I can't fill parties," "zones are empty, there's no one to play with," "unwanted job X has all this great 119 gear and I still don't get to use it," "I'm bored please update Monstrosity," "make my pet worthwhile," "put jobs on appropriate equipment/weapons," "give us more ways to collect capacity points and REM items (therefore keeping us busy)", and blah blah blah.
Aren't the survey results telling them anything?
People are dissatisfied/uninterested in Monstrosity because it fell by the wayside.
People are dissatisfied/want to try high-tier stuff but can't get into parties.
People want to do more Campaign but there's not much reason to do so, medals take too long and people couldn't enjoy the special campaign event, and you can't help others in different WOTG nation lines.
And, the most important point people have been trying to make, is that with 22 jobs pretty much anything should be able to fill in the standard party roles and still have fun and clear content, not be as useless as a red-shirted crew member on Start Trek.

@Afania: I'm glad we agree that pet jobs need a buff. I think, though I can't speak for everyone, that we're not talking about just Delve. Depending on the people you know and your server, your experiences may be different, but I am not hearing much demand for pet jobs in ANY party content. Yeah, there might be "bring your DRG to duo Salvage" or "let's throw pets at Angra Mainyu" and I've heard of some folks taking PUP to AAs or whatever, but usually it's "summon Trusts and go solo it" or "do you have any other jobs?"

You and I have a difference of opinion on what constitutes relevant content, then, because I don't considering being able to do 75-99 content as being "okay."

Delve 1, Delve 2, Skirm to a lesser Extent, High Level Battlefields - all relevant endgame

Walk of the Echoes, Dynamis, Salvage.. all level 99 stuff that anyone can do. It's not the same. If I went on anything I wouldn't be sacrificing that much, unlike the endgame content, where yeah if I took pup/dnc/thf over RNG/SAM I'd be sacrificing a hell of a lot. Maybe not in Delve 1, but Delve 1 is easier.

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Originally Posted by Balloon

You and I have a difference of opinion on what constitutes relevant content, then, because I don't considering being able to do 75-99 content as being "okay."

Delve 1, Delve 2, Skirm to a lesser Extent, High Level Battlefields - all relevant endgame

Walk of the Echoes, Dynamis, Salvage.. all level 99 stuff that anyone can do. It's not the same. If I went on anything I wouldn't be sacrificing that much, unlike the endgame content, where yeah if I took pup/dnc/thf over RNG/SAM I'd be sacrificing a hell of a lot. Maybe not in Delve 1, but Delve 1 is easier.

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You can do dyna on SAM/DNC if you want, but most ppl would rather do it on THF. It's still the most efficient job for dyna, which is something almost every lsmate/friend spend time on.

As stated before, I don't view FFXI as "raids only" MMO, I don't like those type of MMO anyways, never really get into WoW/ARR. It doesn't matter if the content is 10 years old or 1 month old. As long as there's a reason to do it, it's "relevant content" to me. Having more jobs in FFXI makes ppl's live easier for variety of content, on the same time it's also harder to gear all, and vice versa. IMO that's what makes FFXI interesting.

This game is never about "raid only" with every job equal with 1 job geared. If this isn't your cup of tea you should have quit years ago. One of the above post saying he/she wants to quit cuz of job balance issue is something beyond my comprehension. If anything current job balance is much, MUCH better than abyssea era thanks to better content diversity. If someone isn't happy with the balance they should have quit years ago.

You can tell Dev specifically want ppl to lv multiple jobs by the way they design delve: Piercing is OP in ceizak but weak in yorcia. In kamir you need all types of dmg, but slashing doesn't seem to work well(not 100% sure on this). This is more than just SAM being OP DD, but they purposely make it so you need different jobs to do all zones also.

Just for clarification's sake, I do like playing multiple jobs. It just seemed like I picked all the wrong ones to focus on.
And I don't particularly enjoy COR because I feel forced to play it and I don't think I'm very good at it.
I've also experienced a lot of "buy a PC and dualbox," "go solo it with your pet job," and now "go solo it with Trusts," and that is just not always possible for every single content, nor is it very fun or encouraging in an MMO to have to spend so much time alone regardless of job choice.

We run Ceizak with SAMs that spam Apex Arrow. It's hardly a point towards job diversity when you can run it with the same jobs.

Regardless of how you view FFXI when all they release is content that favours x jobs then it is focused on battle content, and it's silly to point to content that is years old to say that there isn't an inbalance in the job system. It's like you're saying THF can solo dynamis slightly better so that makes up for all the other situations where it's not really used. PUP can.. do what better? When you create content that requires jobs that do a certain thing then you can't be surprised when people want to actually use some of the other jobs to do it.

It does matter if content is 10 years old. It really, really does. Because MMOs stay alive because of the influx of new interesting content. If you're going to create a job system you need to ensure that those jobs are usable in a vast majority of it, and not just usable because of the fact that older content is much easier now.

So great, someone will accept me going on pup to vw because in the grand scheme of things vw is easy enough so that it doesn't matter. Maybe after 12 years people want to see that status quo shaken up a bit, and having some jobs break out of their confined, only good for solo roles would be part of that. I don't understand people who don't want the game to be slightly more balanced in favour of allowing more jobs to do content. It's in their own best interest. You could still do content on the jobs now, but it'd be more viable to do it on others. Less shouting. More doing. The job system champions diversity, the content does not.

Answer me this.. What would really be different about the current game if some of the jobs were removed? What's the point of them? Without DNC PUP BST RUN RDM NIN DRG, apart from subjob choices, the game would play nigh identical to what it does today.

Also "If you don't like the status quo you should quit." Is the worst argument for anything. First, it overlooks the fact that there's plenty in this game I actually do enjoy. Secondly, it just scoffs at the idea of change being possible. That opinion alone is the most infuriating thing about this debate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Balloon

I don't understand people who don't want the game to be slightly more balanced in favour of allowing more jobs to do content. It's in their own best interest. You could still do content on the jobs now, but it'd be more viable to do it on others. Less shouting. More doing. The job system champions diversity, the content does not.

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Yeah, I really don't understand why the devs are being so stubborn about this. I don't want every job to be identical - but I DO want every job to be able to fill it's role adequately. I see they are trying to make GEO more in line with BRD - and as a BRD who hasn't even unlocked GEO I totally support that! Why can't they do more for DDs? Most of the jobs in the game are expected to fill DD roles. They really need to stop with this nonsense of pretending that the tiny bit of utility that light DD jobs and pet jobs have can outweigh their massive loss of DPS. Every DD regardless of "utility" should be within 90% of the strongest DD. I'd be fine if WAR, MNK, SAM, are "100s" and BST was a "90" - fine. That kind of gap can be filled... but if BST is a 60 or a 70, it's never going to be worth bringing a BST - EVER.

Pets just aren't that big of a utility - they are mostly a drag - even more so when they can't even hit anything tough when you're using acc food etc. They lose out on all buffs meaning that a BST's effective buff potency is much lower than other DDs... not reasonable.

Bst isn't supposed to come close to a Sam though Olor so i suggest you deal with it.

Yeah, just accept the fact that beastmaster was supposed to be a job that was terrible. Don't complain about in-balances in the game. Just level SAM, like everyone else! /s[arcasm.]

Honestly though Balloon/Monkey, she shouldn't be forced to level it if she doesn't want to. The pet community has gotten completely shit on for a while, I sometimes don't see any dragoons on Ragnarok anymore. Why? Because it's not an optimal job for most relevant content.

However, at least Dragoon can compete in DD department to an extent. What does BST have? Nothing, their pets are unable to contend in DD, and any items that boost the pet, make the master wanting more for themselves. That's not how it should be, period.

BLU has plenty of power if played properly, I've out parsed DRK, MNK, WAR, and even a BLM. It is not that hard to do, it just takes timing and most importantly MP management.

However, BST doesn't have this, they got....some axes....Farsha....Guttler....the mythic I can't remember....and a few other options. But these don't add anything to the pet, and this that's always a problem.

The sheer favoritism of some jobs needs to stop, and discouraging members of the game from playing what they want to play is just ugh...I won't allow anyone to tell me how to play, especially if my runs end up with more success than an organized linkshell.

/s. Look at the vast majority of my other posts on this thread. I was being incredibly sarcastic.

Plus, pup is my favourite job. Favourite, terrible job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Balloon

We run Ceizak with SAMs that spam Apex Arrow. It's hardly a point towards job diversity when you can run it with the same jobs.

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Back in 2013/8 ppl rarely use SAM though, the most popular job at that time was RNG BLU THF DRG. Either way it's irrelevant to the argument.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Balloon

Regardless of how you view FFXI when all they release is content that favours x jobs then it is focused on battle content, and it's silly to point to content that is years old to say that there isn't an inbalance in the job system. It's like you're saying THF can solo dynamis slightly better so that makes up for all the other situations where it's not really used. PUP can.. do what better? When you create content that requires jobs that do a certain thing then you can't be surprised when people want to actually use some of the other jobs to do it.

It does matter if content is 10 years old. It really, really does. Because MMOs stay alive because of the influx of new interesting content. If you're going to create a job system you need to ensure that those jobs are usable in a vast majority of it, and not just usable because of the fact that older content is much easier now.

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I think after pages of pages of argument we still aren't on the same page - -

Can you please answer the below question first:

1. Why's lv 75 era content irrelevant when most players still spend majority of time in it?

2. Why's soloing dyna on SAM or MNK with slightly less gil farm efficiency than THF, is not the same as doing delve on THF with slightly less plasm farm efficiency than SAM or MNK?

You keep insisting on "old content is pointless because I can do old content on any job", so you'd rather solo dyna on MNK or SAM/DNC and make less gil/hr?

But when I said "you can do delve with THF BLU PUP with more than acceptable kill speed", my point was dismissed because apparently a pt with THF PUP BST is beyond terrible, really? You have 45 min in yorcia, I fail to see what's wrong with THF PUP BST when you have more than enough time to kill mobs?

When I argue that THF has better efficiency than SAM in dyna, my point was dismissed, when I argue that THF BLU PUP can clear delve just fine(including yorcia), just not at max efficiency, my point was dismissed again.

Seems double standard to me. You can dismiss my point about THF> DD in dyna because you can do dyna on any job, but when I said you can do delve with any job as well my point was dismissed again. Every argument I had was dismissed for completely opposite reason, lol.

If "THF is useless because I can do dyna on any job, just not at max efficiency" was a legit argument you can use, by same standard I can also say you can do delve on any job, just not at max efficiency.

I don't think you can compare FFXI with "other MMO". Most other MMO are raid only MMO, any content that's not the highest tier raid are irrelevant. On the other hand, vast majority of player don't spend most of their time doing raid in FFXI. What's the point to compare a MMO with every player rushing to endgame and skip everything for higher tier content with FFXI, which has players doing dyna/VW/salvage most of their time?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Balloon

I don't understand people who don't want the game to be slightly more balanced in favour of allowing more jobs to do content.

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Because I think upping the dmg of hybrid job so they can function as DD job is a lazy design direction. Hybrid job should have hybrid job's strength and weakness, they shouldn't be the same as DD job. If I want to play jobs that deals massive dmg, I'd lv SAM, instead of crying about my BLU isn't doing the same dmg as SAM.

I want my BLU to be more useful, yes. But I want it to shine in other content that's not delve. I'd rather want SE to create more content so other jobs can shine, instead of just upping the job's output to be equal to SAM and tell me "Ok, we're done with the job balance! Enjoy your BLU now!" It's a lazy and cheap way to balance jobs, nothing more and nothing less.

I can accept DRK WAR DRG get a dmg increase since they're DD jobs so they're supposed to match SAM's output, but BLU THF BST DNC PUP and such need something different, not SAM No.2. I love hybrid jobs in all MMO, and I don't want them to function as a pure dmg dealer. Asking the dev to adjust hybrid jobs by increasing their dmg to match the real DD means the dev won't focus on creating the unique strength of hybrid jobs anymore.

Your argument about jobs is only valid in games without job change button. It doesn't take long gear up a job. Further more, if everyone can just use 1 job, what's the point to lv up 2nd job or 3rd job? X job being more useful in certain situation is also a good incentive for ppl to try different jobs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Balloon

Answer me this.. What would really be different about the current game if some of the jobs were removed? What's the point of them? Without DNC PUP BST RUN RDM NIN DRG, apart from subjob choices, the game would play nigh identical to what it does today.

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Not sure what's the real question here. Of course DNC and RDM are different. So does RUN NIN BST PUP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Balloon

Also "If you don't like the status quo you should quit." Is the worst argument for anything. First, it overlooks the fact that there's plenty in this game I actually do enjoy. Secondly, it just scoffs at the idea of change being possible. That opinion alone is the most infuriating thing about this debate.

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This isn't the worst argument on a MMO game forum, it's a legit argument.

Every game has different target audience, every game has different design goals. It is not possible to satisfy every player on earth. In order for certain design goals to work, you do need to give up on certain target audience because it's not realistic to target toward everyone on earth.

If the game's design goal isn't what you're looking for, what else do you expect? You either deal with it or quit.

What's the point to change the game's design goal? There are no "better" design goals, only "different" design goals. FFXI with more than 10 jobs having equal output isn't "better" FFXI, just "different" FFXI. By changing the core design philosophy of the game, you may attract new target audience, but you may lose old ones. In a game that's over 10 year old, it's not logical to change the design philosophy drastically....look at what happened in 2013 after R/M/E change.

One of the reason why I enjoy FFXI is because this game isn't highest tier raid only, and jobs aren't pigenon hole into tank/healer/DPS. I liked the fact that ppl still need to spend time in content that's 5 or 10 years old because it's more fun than doing 3 same raid all the time. I also like the fact that jobs like THF BLU RUN is slightly better than SAM for soloing, doing dyna, soloing PW and such, I'm perfectly fine with SAM parse top in yorcia. If I want to parse top I can just lv SAM, which takes less than 3 weeks to collect gear anyways. I'd love to have THF BLU RUN able to do something unique and different from SAM in none delve content, if dev can do that I'd be happy.

But I don't want dev just increase the above job's DPS and tell me "Look, here's the job balance you want, we fixed it. Now you can get a pt invite in yorcia!" I don't want a dps increase so I can do yorcia on BLU and pretend I'm a mini SAM. I want dev to create a situation that BLU excel at, and it's not melee/TP/WS see who parse top.

wall of text summarize:

Dev specifically stated their design goal was to make every job has a use in different situation, that you must lv and gear multiple jobs to get everything done. Which is also the opposite design direction "1 job can do all content" from FFXIV.

I support FFXI's design direction, I want dev to enhance it and stick with it. I don't want every job to be SAM No.2, I don't want everyone to play 1 job and stick with 1 job only. If certain jobs are useless, dev should create more situation that favors it or give it some unique advantage, instead of directly increasing the dmg.

I don't want the design goal to change because that's why I like FFXI.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mizuno

Honestly though Balloon/Monkey, she shouldn't be forced to level it if she doesn't want to. The pet community has gotten completely shit on for a while, I sometimes don't see any dragoons on Ragnarok anymore. Why? Because it's not an optimal job for most relevant content.

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DRG isn't a pet job due to the job mechanic, it's a DD job. It does need output increase because it's DD job.

Other pet jobs need some advantage DD job does not have though, but stop asking SE to turn pet jobs into DD. As previously stated, it's a cheap and lazy way to adjust jobs and that killed the job diversity.

IMO the best way to adjust pet jobs is to increase the hateless output without being in AoE. If ppl can do AA VD with 6 pet jobs and get equal or better kill speed than PLD+2 RNG setup, IMO it's an unique advantage that DD job does not have, thus makes it different.

Making pet jobs do same melee/WS dmg as SAM is a bad idea though. Just go lv SAM if you enjoy doing dmg in a melee zerg situation, why play pet job if you like melee zerg in yorcia?

You're right. We're still on the same page. So I give up arguing with you. It's clear we have a difference in opinion and I won't go on record saying that mine is any less or more valid than yours. Perhaps this is an odd preface if I'm going to go ahead and rebut some of the things you've said, but whatever.

I think Old Content is irrelevant because having a niche doing content released years ago, content done a thousand times doesn't really make me super stoked anymore. I want to play PUP in other stuff. I want to play PUP at all. I go to Salvage on pup, but there's no real reason to.

Scenarios where pup is more useful than other jobs aren't going to be created, and so even if your idea was better it ain't happening. But I disagree with that. Because what does PUP do in party content? It hits shit for damage. As does BST. As does Sam. They are not as different as you keep proclaiming them to be. You can't have the same design goals from a game where 75 was the cap when your game is now ilvl 119 and radically different. Guess what? ilvl alone proves that they've radically changed their design philosophy. Having pup be able to go to certain content would change LITERALLY nothing about how the game is played beyond allowing other jobs to actually do shit. What would content that favour pet jobs even look like? I mean.. We all just hit shit for damage.

The question was how would the game be different without those jobs? It wouldn't. At all. It'd be the same game because those jobs are functionally useless.

You missed the point again. I do enjoy the game, I wish it was better, so I complain about things. The whole stfu and quit then argument is that of a 5 year old.

If you don't think FFXI is a game about battle content, or 'raid content' then I question what game you are playing. the whole point of ilvl stuff is that there's vertical progression. We do content to get gear to do more content.

Dynamis is boring as shit, Salvage isn't challenging, Soloing PW is something most jobs can't do - I want to be able to go to CHALLENGING content on other jobs.

Old content isn't pointless because I can do it on any job, old content is pointless because it provides nothing but a mediocre slog in order to gear yourself for HIGHER content. It's pointless because it's easy. I want to do harder shit.

Anyway, I'm sick of saying the exact same thing, clearly we aren't going to change each others mind.

A game with a job system shouldn't have so many functionally useless jobs. That's my problem.

Well, the known roles of XI are tank, healer, support, and dd; pet jobs will need to fill one of those voids. Bst is not a healer nor support; can tank easier crap, but is a sub-par dd. SE already stated that pet jobs will receive enhanced dd capabilities (Although I am not buying it), hence they are well within their right to ask for SE for dd enhancements. The playerbase wants it and SE intents on doing it; according to the last pet job statement.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post513076

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Afania

DRG isn't a pet job due to the job mechanic, it's a DD job. It does need output increase because it's DD job.

Other pet jobs need some advantage DD job does not have though, but stop asking SE to turn pet jobs into DD. As previously stated, it's a cheap and lazy way to adjust jobs and that killed the job diversity.

IMO the best way to adjust pet jobs is to increase the hateless output without being in AoE. If ppl can do AA VD with 6 pet jobs and get equal or better kill speed than PLD+2 RNG setup, IMO it's an unique advantage that DD job does not have, thus makes it different.

Making pet jobs do same melee/WS dmg as SAM is a bad idea though. Just go lv SAM if you enjoy doing dmg in a melee zerg situation, why play pet job if you like melee zerg in yorcia?

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Pet jobs are DDs. They deal damage. That's their function. I don't want a puppetmaster to string up pummels that do the same damage as a SAM. But me and a pet should be similar in damage to most DDs. This is something Square have said too. But keep arguing that pet jobs aren't DDs, but some weird.. I don't know what.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Balloon

Pet jobs are DDs. They deal damage. That's their function. I don't want a puppetmaster to string up pummels that do the same damage as a SAM. But me and a pet should be similar in damage to most DDs. This is something Square have said too. But keep arguing that pet jobs aren't DDs, but some weird.. I don't know what.

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^^Basically.

And I agree that other jobs need buffing too. DRG WAR DNC PUP BST RUN PLD SMN NIN etc etc.

I can't even think of a scenario where NIN could do tank something better than a RUN/NIN PLD/NIN. It can't really DD well. It's a weird non-job. But somehow that's okay? Why can't SE go back to the drawing board with some jobs, it's clear they aren't working well.

Another question: What do you think would actually change negatively about the game if some other jobs became more viable. Not as good as the "Pure" DDs like SAM WAR etc, but more viable? If someone could set up a run on their puppetmaster that they spent lots of gil and time gearing and not be facing ridicule? How would that be a bad thing?

I'd love to see the responses from a good 90% of the community if the next update was the following:

*We have released content specifically catered to pet jobs. It provides ilvl119 gear that is better than some of the alternatives. In order to do this you will have to have leveled and geared a job that only 2-3% of the playerbase have.

*This gear is better for all jobs, including some of the more popular jobs. You will have to level PUP and BST to get it.

*Because our development team consists of 5 people, there will be no other content released this month.

If I only had a puppetmaster, which I don't because I do enjoy other jobs, I'd have never gotten a divinator.

By god they need to extend the maneuver duration, I am doing nothing but constantly reapplying..... no weapon skilling, low dmg output, just constant JA JA JA....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Balloon

Pet jobs are DDs. They deal damage. That's their function. I don't want a puppetmaster to string up pummels that do the same damage as a SAM. But me and a pet should be similar in damage to most DDs. This is something Square have said too. But keep arguing that pet jobs aren't DDs, but some weird.. I don't know what.

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To clarify: When I said DD I mean WAR DRK MNK SAM DRG, jobs that's designed to deal dmg but without hybrid ability(at least not without changing SJ) to perform something else. It's more of a term I use to describe those jobs.

If PUP+pet doing same dmg as SAM in a yorcia melee zerg situation is what you want, what's the real reason to play PUP instead of SAM? I really don't get it.

If I lv pet jobs I'd want to do something SAM can't do, such as killing VD with 6 pets job faster than 2 RNG. Since RNG or melee setup needs PLD and healer, pet job setup doesn't.

Honestly, I really don't understand what's so fun about lving a pet job just to do melee zerg content and engage TP WS with your pet. Even if PUP can do the same dmg as SAM in such situation, it doesn't sound fun at all.

It's fact that pet jobs are DD deal dmg with pets, but with a pet mechanic coming into play, there are ways to make it deal dmg different from melee engage TP WS with WHM spamming curaga.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Balloon

I think Old Content is irrelevant because having a niche doing content released years ago, content done a thousand times doesn't really make me super stoked anymore. I want to play PUP in other stuff. I want to play PUP at all. I go to Salvage on pup, but there's no real reason to.

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It doesn't matter if soloing dyna make you super stoked or not. It's still part of the game that a lot of ppl spend majority of time on. Also since I view FFXI as a virtual life MMO instead of raid focus MMO providing instant gratification, dyna is just part of your life in FFXI that's not supposed to be super exciting raid, but a way to make gil.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Balloon

But I disagree with that. Because what does PUP do in party content? It hits shit for damage. As does BST. As does Sam. They are not as different as you keep proclaiming them to be. You can't have the same design goals from a game where 75 was the cap when your game is now ilvl 119 and radically different. Guess what? ilvl alone proves that they've radically changed their design philosophy.

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I'm not sure if "lv 119 is different from 75" is a legit argument or not. The game used to be lv 50, then slowly increase the cap to 75. Lv 119 is pretty much the same.

There are certain game mechanics that worked in early lv that doesn't work in ILV119. For example, multiple DD doing SC and time it worked earlier but it doesn't work as well today due to faster TP speed.

However, most of the design goals still exist in today's FFXI. Long term goals still exist, gear swap still exist, not focusing on 3 highest tier raid is still the same as lv 75. I'm not sure if "it's ilv 119 now" is a legit argument here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Balloon

Having pup be able to go to certain content would change LITERALLY nothing about how the game is played beyond allowing other jobs to actually do shit. What would content that favour pet jobs even look like? I mean.. We all just hit shit for damage.

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I said over, and over, and over again. PUP can do delve just fine, I've done it several times

I still want PUP to do something SAM MNK can't do though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Balloon

The question was how would the game be different without those jobs? It wouldn't. At all. It'd be the same game because those jobs are functionally useless.

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This is incorrect, I'm not sure why you insist X job are functionally useless even though I listed many example of situation they shine. It seems that you don't listen to other's opinion, and just go on to present your opinion which is clearly biased.

RDM: After recent RDM adjustment without doubt it's one of the most game changing mage in this game thanks to eva down, haste2 and flurry2. RDM is a slightly better mage than WHM in CP pt thanks to haste 2. Using a RDM in RNG setup is a bigger increase than using a WHM with eva down and flurry. If you don't have a COR in pt then dia3 is great. The fact that you said RDM is functionally useless is enough for me not to take your posts seriously. It's like saying BRD or WHM is useless.

NIN: Top DD in D/VD in AA battle, enough said. It's better than MNK in those situations if you're not using RNG setup.

RUN: It can tank most content just fine, but it's more game changing in solo situations(can solo PW for gil) and it's often wanted in shadowlord BC.

Both RUN and NIN has a niche use that shine in certain situation.

DNC: It's only "useless" because COR can do the job of DNC. If there are no COR in pt, DNC is the best alternative in a MNK setup due to samba and steps.

It's not hard to fix DNC by double or triple the potency of steps IMO.

DRG: Need a dmg increase, I agree.

BST and PUP: Need a pet game mechanic revamp basically. I still disagree with turning pet jobs into SAM.

Out of all the jobs you listed, only DRG BST and PUP are seriously behind. DNC NIN and RUN are situationally useful and RDM is VERY useful.

Again, I'm sick and tire of ppl using argument about X job being useless then proceed to ignore the obvious game mechanics that favor them.

It's totally fine to ask for a job buff, but it's not fine to twist the fact or ignore them to support your opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Balloon

If you don't think FFXI is a game about battle content, or 'raid content' then I question what game you are playing. the whole point of ilvl stuff is that there's vertical progression. We do content to get gear to do more content.

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Based on the fact that most players don't do "raid content" 24/7, and the fact that I still use NNI/Abyssea/lv 75 gears(for real), I think I'm the one who should question what game you're playing. FFXI is never about doing content to get gear to do more content, it's about getting sidegrades and long term goal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Balloon

Old content isn't pointless because I can do it on any job, old content is pointless because it provides nothing but a mediocre slog in order to gear yourself for HIGHER content. It's pointless because it's easy. I want to do harder shit.

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This is not how FFXI works. Most ppl spend time to build a relic or Mythic actually has all the delve2 clear. They clear delve1/2, get a weapon drop, got bored in this game so they go to dyna/salvage to build R/E/M, after it's done they proceed to build next R/E/M because they're bored. A lot of ppl actually clear delve1/2 before considering a R/M/E since delve 1/2 is faster to get clear, R/M/E takes longer.

Most of the ilv119 weapons are perfectly capable of clearing the highest raid content, idk ANYONE who build R/M/E to do next tier of raid because they can't clear delve without R/M/E. Most ppl build R/M/E because, they're bored and want some accomplishment.

R/M/E is never a mediocre slog to gear yourself for next tier of raid content, it's a long term goal accomplishment, nothing more and nothing less.

Clearly you're playing a different game, your POV about FFXI is....so different from reality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Balloon

I can't even think of a scenario where NIN could do something better than a RUN/NIN PLD/NIN. It can't really DD well. It's a weird non-job. But somehow that's okay? Why can't SE go back to the drawing board with some jobs, it's clear they aren't working well.

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NIN is a better DD than MNK on AA D/VD due to more shadows(so less time spent on casting shadows) and ability to /WAR and still get shadows. I highly doubt none ergon weapon RUN/NIN can outparse NIN/WAR.

Even ergon weapon RUN/NIN is questionable(have to double check spreadsheet). NIN has offensive JA AND /WAR, RUN has none except lunge/swipe.

The fact that you listed PLD/NIN made me.....not wanting to take your opinion seriously again >.> I haven't see PLD/NIN for ages >.>

If you want to argue about X job being useless, at least do some research about the job mechanics >.> Your argument about RDM being completely useless is >.> You argument are mostly very different from reality, the only thing you get it right is PUP and BST usually don't outparse SAM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Afania

The fact that you listed PLD/NIN made me.....not wanting to take your opinion seriously again >.> I haven't see PLD/NIN for ages >.>

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...I wasn't saying PLD/NIN was viable or even used, I'm saying that NIN as a tank has no tools that aren't available via subjob, despite it constantly being called a tank by the developers. I think I've been very, very polite during this. I haven't attacked you personally or anything similar, so I'd appreciate it if the same consideration was taken by you.

Again, I play the game, I wasn't saying PLD/NIN is used, nor RUN/NIN.

So I guess to rephrase: If there was a scenario where NIN shadow tanking was better than the way Paladin and Run currently tanked, I'd see no reason why a NIN would be better even in that scenario. I thought that was obvious via context, I mean, I listed tank jobs so I don't mean as a dd.

And like you've already said, I'm tired of going around in circles. We have a difference of opinion. I'm not going to change your mind. The last 5 pages have been us reciting the exact same arguments over and over again.

Time and time again I've said I don't want PUP to be EQUAL to sam, but if they were doing the same damage... you could take either. That's the point. But I don't want that. I don't want it to be equal. Why would you take PUP over SAM if they were doing equal damage? Isn't that the same argument?