Please nerf monk and samurai so other DDs can play

[Balloon]

You're right. We're still on the same page. So I give up arguing with you. It's clear we have a difference in opinion and I won't go on record saying that mine is any less or more valid than yours. Perhaps this is an odd preface if I'm going to go ahead and rebut some of the things you've said, but whatever.

I think Old Content is irrelevant because having a niche doing content released years ago, content done a thousand times doesn't really make me super stoked anymore. I want to play PUP in other stuff. I want to play PUP at all. I go to Salvage on pup, but there's no real reason to.

Scenarios where pup is more useful than other jobs aren't going to be created, and so even if your idea was better it ain't happening. But I disagree with that. Because what does PUP do in party content? It hits shit for damage. As does BST. As does Sam. They are not as different as you keep proclaiming them to be. You can't have the same design goals from a game where 75 was the cap when your game is now ilvl 119 and radically different. Guess what? ilvl alone proves that they've radically changed their design philosophy. Having pup be able to go to certain content would change LITERALLY nothing about how the game is played beyond allowing other jobs to actually do shit. What would content that favour pet jobs even look like? I mean.. We all just hit shit for damage.

The question was how would the game be different without those jobs? It wouldn't. At all. It'd be the same game because those jobs are functionally useless.

You missed the point again. I do enjoy the game, I wish it was better, so I complain about things. The whole stfu and quit then argument is that of a 5 year old.

If you don't think FFXI is a game about battle content, or 'raid content' then I question what game you are playing. the whole point of ilvl stuff is that there's vertical progression. We do content to get gear to do more content.

Dynamis is boring as shit, Salvage isn't challenging, Soloing PW is something most jobs can't do - I want to be able to go to CHALLENGING content on other jobs.

Old content isn't pointless because I can do it on any job, old content is pointless because it provides nothing but a mediocre slog in order to gear yourself for HIGHER content. It's pointless because it's easy. I want to do harder shit.

Anyway, I'm sick of saying the exact same thing, clearly we aren't going to change each others mind.

A game with a job system shouldn't have so many functionally useless jobs. That's my problem.

[WoW]

Well, the known roles of XI are tank, healer, support, and dd; pet jobs will need to fill one of those voids. Bst is not a healer nor support; can tank easier crap, but is a sub-par dd. SE already stated that pet jobs will receive enhanced dd capabilities (Although I am not buying it), hence they are well within their right to ask for SE for dd enhancements. The playerbase wants it and SE intents on doing it; according to the last pet job statement.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post513076

[Balloon]

DRG isn't a pet job due to the job mechanic, it's a DD job. It does need output increase because it's DD job.

Other pet jobs need some advantage DD job does not have though, but stop asking SE to turn pet jobs into DD. As previously stated, it's a cheap and lazy way to adjust jobs and that killed the job diversity.

IMO the best way to adjust pet jobs is to increase the hateless output without being in AoE. If ppl can do AA VD with 6 pet jobs and get equal or better kill speed than PLD+2 RNG setup, IMO it's an unique advantage that DD job does not have, thus makes it different.

Making pet jobs do same melee/WS dmg as SAM is a bad idea though. Just go lv SAM if you enjoy doing dmg in a melee zerg situation, why play pet job if you like melee zerg in yorcia?

Pet jobs are DDs. They deal damage. That's their function. I don't want a puppetmaster to string up pummels that do the same damage as a SAM. But me and a pet should be similar in damage to most DDs. This is something Square have said too. But keep arguing that pet jobs aren't DDs, but some weird.. I don't know what.

[WoW]

Pet jobs are DDs. They deal damage. That's their function. I don't want a puppetmaster to string up pummels that do the same damage as a SAM. But me and a pet should be similar in damage to most DDs. This is something Square have said too. But keep arguing that pet jobs aren't DDs, but some weird.. I don't know what.

^^Basically.

[Balloon]

And I agree that other jobs need buffing too. DRG WAR DNC PUP BST RUN PLD SMN NIN etc etc.

I can't even think of a scenario where NIN could do tank something better than a RUN/NIN PLD/NIN. It can't really DD well. It's a weird non-job. But somehow that's okay? Why can't SE go back to the drawing board with some jobs, it's clear they aren't working well.

Another question: What do you think would actually change negatively about the game if some other jobs became more viable. Not as good as the "Pure" DDs like SAM WAR etc, but more viable? If someone could set up a run on their puppetmaster that they spent lots of gil and time gearing and not be facing ridicule? How would that be a bad thing?

I'd love to see the responses from a good 90% of the community if the next update was the following:

*We have released content specifically catered to pet jobs. It provides ilvl119 gear that is better than some of the alternatives. In order to do this you will have to have leveled and geared a job that only 2-3% of the playerbase have.

*This gear is better for all jobs, including some of the more popular jobs. You will have to level PUP and BST to get it.

*Because our development team consists of 5 people, there will be no other content released this month.

If I only had a puppetmaster, which I don't because I do enjoy other jobs, I'd have never gotten a divinator.

[Mitruya]

By god they need to extend the maneuver duration, I am doing nothing but constantly reapplying..... no weapon skilling, low dmg output, just constant JA JA JA....

[Afania]

Pet jobs are DDs. They deal damage. That's their function. I don't want a puppetmaster to string up pummels that do the same damage as a SAM. But me and a pet should be similar in damage to most DDs. This is something Square have said too. But keep arguing that pet jobs aren't DDs, but some weird.. I don't know what.

To clarify: When I said DD I mean WAR DRK MNK SAM DRG, jobs that's designed to deal dmg but without hybrid ability(at least not without changing SJ) to perform something else. It's more of a term I use to describe those jobs.

If PUP+pet doing same dmg as SAM in a yorcia melee zerg situation is what you want, what's the real reason to play PUP instead of SAM? I really don't get it.

If I lv pet jobs I'd want to do something SAM can't do, such as killing VD with 6 pets job faster than 2 RNG. Since RNG or melee setup needs PLD and healer, pet job setup doesn't.

Honestly, I really don't understand what's so fun about lving a pet job just to do melee zerg content and engage TP WS with your pet. Even if PUP can do the same dmg as SAM in such situation, it doesn't sound fun at all.

It's fact that pet jobs are DD deal dmg with pets, but with a pet mechanic coming into play, there are ways to make it deal dmg different from melee engage TP WS with WHM spamming curaga.

I think Old Content is irrelevant because having a niche doing content released years ago, content done a thousand times doesn't really make me super stoked anymore. I want to play PUP in other stuff. I want to play PUP at all. I go to Salvage on pup, but there's no real reason to.

It doesn't matter if soloing dyna make you super stoked or not. It's still part of the game that a lot of ppl spend majority of time on. Also since I view FFXI as a virtual life MMO instead of raid focus MMO providing instant gratification, dyna is just part of your life in FFXI that's not supposed to be super exciting raid, but a way to make gil.

But I disagree with that. Because what does PUP do in party content? It hits shit for damage. As does BST. As does Sam. They are not as different as you keep proclaiming them to be. You can't have the same design goals from a game where 75 was the cap when your game is now ilvl 119 and radically different. Guess what? ilvl alone proves that they've radically changed their design philosophy.

I'm not sure if "lv 119 is different from 75" is a legit argument or not. The game used to be lv 50, then slowly increase the cap to 75. Lv 119 is pretty much the same.

There are certain game mechanics that worked in early lv that doesn't work in ILV119. For example, multiple DD doing SC and time it worked earlier but it doesn't work as well today due to faster TP speed.

However, most of the design goals still exist in today's FFXI. Long term goals still exist, gear swap still exist, not focusing on 3 highest tier raid is still the same as lv 75. I'm not sure if "it's ilv 119 now" is a legit argument here.

Having pup be able to go to certain content would change LITERALLY nothing about how the game is played beyond allowing other jobs to actually do shit. What would content that favour pet jobs even look like? I mean.. We all just hit shit for damage.

I said over, and over, and over again. PUP can do delve just fine, I've done it several times

I still want PUP to do something SAM MNK can't do though.

The question was how would the game be different without those jobs? It wouldn't. At all. It'd be the same game because those jobs are functionally useless.

This is incorrect, I'm not sure why you insist X job are functionally useless even though I listed many example of situation they shine. It seems that you don't listen to other's opinion, and just go on to present your opinion which is clearly biased.

RDM: After recent RDM adjustment without doubt it's one of the most game changing mage in this game thanks to eva down, haste2 and flurry2. RDM is a slightly better mage than WHM in CP pt thanks to haste 2. Using a RDM in RNG setup is a bigger increase than using a WHM with eva down and flurry. If you don't have a COR in pt then dia3 is great. The fact that you said RDM is functionally useless is enough for me not to take your posts seriously. It's like saying BRD or WHM is useless.

NIN: Top DD in D/VD in AA battle, enough said. It's better than MNK in those situations if you're not using RNG setup.

RUN: It can tank most content just fine, but it's more game changing in solo situations(can solo PW for gil) and it's often wanted in shadowlord BC.

Both RUN and NIN has a niche use that shine in certain situation.

DNC: It's only "useless" because COR can do the job of DNC. If there are no COR in pt, DNC is the best alternative in a MNK setup due to samba and steps.

It's not hard to fix DNC by double or triple the potency of steps IMO.

DRG: Need a dmg increase, I agree.

BST and PUP: Need a pet game mechanic revamp basically. I still disagree with turning pet jobs into SAM.

Out of all the jobs you listed, only DRG BST and PUP are seriously behind. DNC NIN and RUN are situationally useful and RDM is VERY useful.

Again, I'm sick and tire of ppl using argument about X job being useless then proceed to ignore the obvious game mechanics that favor them.

It's totally fine to ask for a job buff, but it's not fine to twist the fact or ignore them to support your opinion.

If you don't think FFXI is a game about battle content, or 'raid content' then I question what game you are playing. the whole point of ilvl stuff is that there's vertical progression. We do content to get gear to do more content.

Based on the fact that most players don't do "raid content" 24/7, and the fact that I still use NNI/Abyssea/lv 75 gears(for real), I think I'm the one who should question what game you're playing. FFXI is never about doing content to get gear to do more content, it's about getting sidegrades and long term goal.

[Afania]

Old content isn't pointless because I can do it on any job, old content is pointless because it provides nothing but a mediocre slog in order to gear yourself for HIGHER content. It's pointless because it's easy. I want to do harder shit.

This is not how FFXI works. Most ppl spend time to build a relic or Mythic actually has all the delve2 clear. They clear delve1/2, get a weapon drop, got bored in this game so they go to dyna/salvage to build R/E/M, after it's done they proceed to build next R/E/M because they're bored. A lot of ppl actually clear delve1/2 before considering a R/M/E since delve 1/2 is faster to get clear, R/M/E takes longer.

Most of the ilv119 weapons are perfectly capable of clearing the highest raid content, idk ANYONE who build R/M/E to do next tier of raid because they can't clear delve without R/M/E. Most ppl build R/M/E because, they're bored and want some accomplishment.

R/M/E is never a mediocre slog to gear yourself for next tier of raid content, it's a long term goal accomplishment, nothing more and nothing less.

Clearly you're playing a different game, your POV about FFXI is....so different from reality.

[Afania]

I can't even think of a scenario where NIN could do something better than a RUN/NIN PLD/NIN. It can't really DD well. It's a weird non-job. But somehow that's okay? Why can't SE go back to the drawing board with some jobs, it's clear they aren't working well.

NIN is a better DD than MNK on AA D/VD due to more shadows(so less time spent on casting shadows) and ability to /WAR and still get shadows. I highly doubt none ergon weapon RUN/NIN can outparse NIN/WAR.

Even ergon weapon RUN/NIN is questionable(have to double check spreadsheet). NIN has offensive JA AND /WAR, RUN has none except lunge/swipe.

The fact that you listed PLD/NIN made me.....not wanting to take your opinion seriously again >.> I haven't see PLD/NIN for ages >.>

If you want to argue about X job being useless, at least do some research about the job mechanics >.> Your argument about RDM being completely useless is >.> You argument are mostly very different from reality, the only thing you get it right is PUP and BST usually don't outparse SAM.

[Balloon]

The fact that you listed PLD/NIN made me.....not wanting to take your opinion seriously again >.> I haven't see PLD/NIN for ages >.>

...I wasn't saying PLD/NIN was viable or even used, I'm saying that NIN as a tank has no tools that aren't available via subjob, despite it constantly being called a tank by the developers. I think I've been very, very polite during this. I haven't attacked you personally or anything similar, so I'd appreciate it if the same consideration was taken by you.

Again, I play the game, I wasn't saying PLD/NIN is used, nor RUN/NIN.

So I guess to rephrase: If there was a scenario where NIN shadow tanking was better than the way Paladin and Run currently tanked, I'd see no reason why a NIN would be better even in that scenario. I thought that was obvious via context, I mean, I listed tank jobs so I don't mean as a dd.

And like you've already said, I'm tired of going around in circles. We have a difference of opinion. I'm not going to change your mind. The last 5 pages have been us reciting the exact same arguments over and over again.

Time and time again I've said I don't want PUP to be EQUAL to sam, but if they were doing the same damage... you could take either. That's the point. But I don't want that. I don't want it to be equal. Why would you take PUP over SAM if they were doing equal damage? Isn't that the same argument?