Please nerf monk and samurai so other DDs can play

[SMD111]

SAM has:
high tp output
high primary target damage
high defense

SAM does not have:
a way to attack multiple targets(unless you counter which is random at best)
--in other words no AoE or cone attacks(hence the need for high defense and damage)

[Afania]

So the reason for including a BLM is just to stay out of the way to allow the SAM to be even more broken?

Nothing wrong with that....SE adjusted SC dmg so MB get a place. If there's some sort of MB dmg+ % roll for BLM it'd be even stronger.

Not sure why the above point is relevant in this discussion anyways, sounds like a ton of SAM hate.

Pretty much any job that can do decent damage without needed to use a WS that will interrupt a skill chain would do.

No. I don't know any job that can do 85% of SAM without using WS to interrupt SAM's multi-step double light SC......besides BLM. That's due to the way SC works, you can't WS right after last WS for SC, you need to wait for a few sec. If you wait then you're wasting your TP, when you wait in a 3 DD setup you're wasting 5~6 free WS for nothing, thus lowering the output.

Note that a single SAM solo SC can do yorcia in 25 min. By logic a pt with 3 SAM should clear yorcia in 8~10 min because you have triple amount of output. In reality unless you have SAMs all split up on different target, most of the 3 DD setup clear yorcia in about 20 min, may be slightly less if everything is perfect, but certainly not 8~10 min lv without splitting up.

That proved a large amount of dmg are wasted when you have more than 1 melee in the pt and it's more logical to use a BLM over another SAM.

I can't help but call trolling when you compare thf being slightly better in dynamis to mnk being "slightly" better in delve. And you can try all the options you want to it won't change the reality of job hierarchy in this game.

Not sure what's wrong with MNK "slightly" better than THF in delve. I didn't say THF is stronger than MNK, I only said MNK isn't THAT much stronger than THF. At least before WS update it wasn't, highly doubt WS update changed much.

This is one of the old morimar parse I had with THF and MNK friends. I forgot if it's all T4 5+ tojil or just tojil.

THF: 174598(36.0%)
MNK: 173030(35.7%)

Note that the MNK isn't the best MNK ever, but he's still better than 80% of PUG 119 MNK you can find on this server.

This another morimar parse against another friend before WS update. Note that the WS update probably pushes SAM's output a lot higher than it was.

THF: 255795(39.8%)
SAM: 228083(35.5%)

I didn't notice a kill speed decrease with THF in pt, if anything it was faster than most of 3x MNK tojil PUG on my server. Personally I pt with quit a lot of DD on my server but idk any MNK that can do double amount of dmg THF can do.

Note that this isn't ceizak, it's morimar. Back when we did Ceizak with 18 man, another THF almost always parse top v.s other none piercing DDs.

I'm sorry if you think THF isn't a VIABLE DD in delve on target that doesn't have piercing resist. It may be slightly lower than top MNK, but it's certainly not A LOT lower to a point to make me sound like a troll.

The reality is, MNK's output is overestimated by the community. Just because every PUG /shout for MNK and SAM only, doesn't mean other job is THAT bad.

Also, just because I said THF can parse high and perfectly viable in delve, doesn't make me a troll.

[Sasaraixx]

snip

No, it has nothing to do with BLM and everything to do with SAM. It's not SAM hate. It's just the truth. If your idea of showing that one job is not in need of attention is by saying "it's a great choice because you can invite it to not get in the way of the SAM who is putting up ridiculous numbers," then we have different views of what job balance really is. I'm also dubious of this 85% claim if you are saying that 1 SAM can clear Yorcia in 20 minutes.

I'd assume SCH should be able to put up similar numbers then. You also spent a whole paragraph talking about eased damage in a 3 melee set up but that BLM and SAM is superior. Who took that 3rd spot? How would that compare to 2DD? And maybe the party will fight different targets so your argument collapse there too.

All your parse numbers are not persuasive because we don't know how well geared/skilled those players were and you already admitted that the MNK wasn't geared that well. But if you want to keep putting up parses showing thf out damaging SAM and MNK, then have at it. I'll let people who play those jobs weigh on on it.

And don't make up things I didn't say in order to make your point seem more valid. Please show me where I said thf isn't a viable dd for delve. You can't because I didn't. I'm laughing at you comparing dynamis to delve as if the two are even remotely similar interns of game balance or importance.

And for the record, you can clear delve with any job in this game. No one is saying that isn't the case. What we are saying is that there are clearly some jobs that are above others on most content, so why would you bother with the "other" jobs.

And as an aside, focusing on your parse numbers ignores the other things that a job brings to a party like survivability.

I apologize for the typos that are bound to be in this post. #iphoneautocorrect

[Balloon]

That's also in a tojil run, people brought mnk there before the influx of 119 and the nerf for survivability, not damage. I'm sure some jobs can compete, but again it comes down to having it be more difficult, requiring better team work, more luck, better gear, more concentration. Possible and Viable aren't the same thing. But that's Tojil, it's hardly the height of importance. I've ran on pup in Delve 1 and won. We do it for giggles.

I mean christ, look at populations, we see people abandoning runs because there's no brds/plds/rngs. That's not conducive to fun in a game with a dwindling playerbase. They've made headway with that. GEO is more viable than it once was as a buffer. So why can't other DDs become more viable?

I'm sure this is becoming a bit circular, but I'll repeat what I said before. Yes it's possible to clear, but there's a disparity in difficulty when using those other jobs. I'm guilty of this, if someone said they were setting up a Yorica run with a THF PUP BST BRD WHM COR, or whatever you'd go with, I just wouldn't go. There's such a high chance of failure.

[WoW]

^^I agree;

This month will most likely be my last hurrah, unless things change. I really have no issue walking away from this unbalanced/dated game; may I add the most unresponsive producers I have ever seen. Sub is already "to be cancelled" (So i will not forget, barely log in).There are better MMOs out there atm (Imo personally, which is why i log on sparsely), and in 2015 and beyond, SE is gonna face some serious comp from other MMOS. Ppl are already dropping out, as Balloon alluded to and I understand why; I barely long on as it is. Imo, I expect XIV to face the same fate in a year or two; same company, same traits. Died once, just saying.

With that being said, I do agree with Ray as it pertains to the playerbase; imo, they are robots, copy > paste > repeat. Not saying reading a strat, tips, etc are wrong, i mean, you cannot blame them due to the enormous gap between dds. Imo, XI enforces the robot mentality with this insane dd hierarchy. At least XIV was fairly balanced when i played it waaaay back when (However, I read that the XIV playerbase resemble robots as-well).

[Mitruya]

I think the only thing that's kept me around is still having friends who play, the chance meeting of new friends when I get over my shyness to shout for myself, and the fun of socializing on the forums (and I'm going to miss conversing with those who stop subbing).
But I've also questioned this imbalance BS I pay for every month, the deadness of my server, the cookie-cutter setups that prevent anything from actually happening (because fewer people have those princess jobs or are online), the lack of Monstrosity updates, etc.
I don't know if it's school time or vacation time or what, but I swear things get quieter and quieter, linkshells are emptying, endgame shouts are few and only center on BRD/WHM/RNG ... also people's time and gil-pockets are so precious that there's often little incentive to team-up anymore.
Many people have already nailed it by saying that all (or more of) the jobs need to be viable so we can fill parties, and/or content needs to be balanced so as to not favor a certain set-up only.
Even Disney Infinity is starting to look more appealing for next month ... because Loki. ;p

[Balloon]

I think a lot of the problem is the community. It's not all of the problem. They make changes to something, admittedly late, and it gets lambasted by the community. They tried to correct the imbalance with REM and people screamed and cried. They release a +4 bard weapon and we once again see the tears. It's a balancing act, and they often succumb more to popular demand.

I often think they develop things in a vacuum too. We've not got an augment system based randomly on stones, when we could have easily used evoliths to remove some of the randomness of the system. But they created that and abandoned it. Pankration, Synergy, Monstrosity - All abandoned. The annoying thing about this is that they don't reincorporate any of these old systems, we're seeing the same now with trusts, rather than take what they're doing with that AI and extend it to Pets/Fellows.

And Skirmish 119 weapons aren't that great. So that's a new system that won't get done much. I just want them to have more understanding of how the game is played.

[Afania]

No, it has nothing to do with BLM and everything to do with SAM. It's not SAM hate. It's just the truth. If your idea of showing that one job is not in need of attention is by saying "it's a great choice because you can invite it to not get in the way of the SAM who is putting up ridiculous numbers," then we have different views of what job balance really is. I'm also dubious of this 85% claim if you are saying that 1 SAM can clear Yorcia in 20 minutes.

If you read my previous post I do agree that SAM is OP, but that's the only job that's OP atm. MNK is just fine, it's certainly not OP in terms of output, with recent HP adjustment one of it's major advantage is also gone. MNK is more of "easy to play job for casuals" than OP.

SAM solo clearing in 25(not 20) min is more of an issue of OP SC dmg, less about SAM's actual dmg. When half of the dmg came from SC, that's how the game works, having more than a couple of melee ended up wasting spot.

BLM did 85% of SAM came from the number from BG, and it doesn't seem unrealistic at all due to yorcia kinda favor magic dmg on T3, 4 and 5. I can easily do 85% of SAM on COR with 1 darksday bonus if not counting SC bonus, with double darksday bonus I can parse as high or outparse most SAM in yorcia on COR with 8~9k WS avg. It's the extra SC dmg that really made the difference so SAM pulled ahead. I can't do self double light/dark on COR, my most powerful WS leaden salute can't solo lv3/4 SC, while SAM's most powerful WS fudo can double light. Despite I can do over 85% or more dmg than a SAM with my melee/WS dmg with darksday bonus, SAM still parse higher with better SC dmg.

Also depend on your support/DT- set capability you can probably AoE adds on BLM, which also pushes parse higher.

I'd assume SCH should be able to put up similar numbers then. You also spent a whole paragraph talking about eased damage in a 3 melee set up but that BLM and SAM is superior. Who took that 3rd spot? How would that compare to 2DD? And maybe the party will fight different targets so your argument collapse there too.

Ideally, you can have each SAM solo 1 NM and reduce the kill time a lot, in reality it's harder to pull off with most groups. It does require more team work than your avg "kill A, move on, kill B, move on then kill C" PUG.

You can try that if you want, since I don't have a static/close friend and I often do delve with random ppl with low trust/team work between each other, plus subpar quality mages, it's just creating more pain in the pass to do that.

All your parse numbers are not persuasive because we don't know how well geared/skilled those players were and you already admitted that the MNK wasn't geared that well. But if you want to keep putting up parses showing thf out damaging SAM and MNK, then have at it. I'll let people who play those jobs weigh on on it.

I didn't say the MNK wasn't geared well, I said he's better than 80% of MNK on my server, how is that "not geared well"? I can only name less than 10 MNK that can compete or beat him, none of them can do double amount of dmg, more like minor win if they win.

I've done many 2~3 min tojil without removing the attack down aura, I don't think they're gimp. If THF is a major hindrance in terms of output I wouldn't invite THF to begin with.

Either way, since you gladly admit that you don't play the job, your opinion about the job doesn't matter as well.

And don't make up things I didn't say in order to make your point seem more valid. Please show me where I said thf isn't a viable dd for delve. You can't because I didn't. I'm laughing at you comparing dynamis to delve as if the two are even remotely similar interns of game balance or importance.

I'm not sure what's wrong with comparing dynamis to delve when both are content in FFXI? For the entire thread I see ppl say X job suck, Y job suck, because for some reason they only do delve 24/7 so their jobs are "useless", seriously?

Currently I spend 40% of my time doing CP farm, 20% of my time doing gil/PW farm, 30% of my time on delve and 10% on higher tier BC. Delve is only 30% of my time in FFXI.

Everyday when I log on, my lsmate/friends are either:

1. Farming dyna/salvage/ein for relic or mythic. They spend 70% of their time doing that.

2. Making skirmish pt.

3. Making VW pt.

4. In rare occasion, doing WoE. (Which may be a content favors pet job, mind you)

5. Making AA MR pt for the mask, which doesn't favor SAM if you do D/VD.

6. Delve.....they spend less than half of their time doing delve, even if they have proper delve jobs.

From my personal observation, for at least 90% of the player, delve is only a small part of their FFXI life. Even if they have SAM MNK BRD WHM leveled, they still often spend slightly more time in other content, especially dyna/salvage, which requires THF for max efficiency.

So I really don't understand the logic behind entire QQ thread about SAM being OP when majority of the player probably only need SAM less than 50% of time in FFXI. Sure, SAM needs a nerf, but it's not like if SE doesn't nerf SAM, other jobs would be completely useless since some of the jobs aren't designed to be a real DD. Ppl yelled at THF being useless then proceed to pretend AA/DM /shout for THF doesn't exist and the majority of population isn't spending most of their time farming dyna. Ppl QQ about pet job being useless, while I agree that pet jobs need a buff it's still used in other content. Ppl QQ about RUN being useless but I see shadowlord BC /shout for RUN pretty often. Ppl QQ about BLM being useless, while JP skirmish pt often insist to bring a BLM.

And whenever I pointed out X job isn't completely useless in other content that's not delve, ppl disagree with my opinion because only delve counts, every other content that's not delve doesn't count.

Grass is greener on the other side of fence, isn't it? Unless everyone spend 90% of their time in delve, all argument about X job doesn't get invite in delve is invalid IMO.

[Mitruya]

They really need to add up all the bitching about "x job QQ" and "server merge QQ" and take a look at why people are upset.
I know I shouldn't complain about all the stuff they have added month after month; at the same time I don't think I'm reaping much from it and so I come out with more disappointment than excitement.
I'll be the first to admit that part of it is me - scheduling, shyness, wanting to be a follower not a leader. But I'm not the only one to remark that Valefor is quiet, and I'm seeing posts from different servers over and over saying the same thing.
People are saying, "I can't fill parties," "zones are empty, there's no one to play with," "unwanted job X has all this great 119 gear and I still don't get to use it," "I'm bored please update Monstrosity," "make my pet worthwhile," "put jobs on appropriate equipment/weapons," "give us more ways to collect capacity points and REM items (therefore keeping us busy)", and blah blah blah.
Aren't the survey results telling them anything?
People are dissatisfied/uninterested in Monstrosity because it fell by the wayside.
People are dissatisfied/want to try high-tier stuff but can't get into parties.
People want to do more Campaign but there's not much reason to do so, medals take too long and people couldn't enjoy the special campaign event, and you can't help others in different WOTG nation lines.
And, the most important point people have been trying to make, is that with 22 jobs pretty much anything should be able to fill in the standard party roles and still have fun and clear content, not be as useless as a red-shirted crew member on Start Trek.

@Afania: I'm glad we agree that pet jobs need a buff. I think, though I can't speak for everyone, that we're not talking about just Delve. Depending on the people you know and your server, your experiences may be different, but I am not hearing much demand for pet jobs in ANY party content. Yeah, there might be "bring your DRG to duo Salvage" or "let's throw pets at Angra Mainyu" and I've heard of some folks taking PUP to AAs or whatever, but usually it's "summon Trusts and go solo it" or "do you have any other jobs?"

[Balloon]

You and I have a difference of opinion on what constitutes relevant content, then, because I don't considering being able to do 75-99 content as being "okay."

Delve 1, Delve 2, Skirm to a lesser Extent, High Level Battlefields - all relevant endgame

Walk of the Echoes, Dynamis, Salvage.. all level 99 stuff that anyone can do. It's not the same. If I went on anything I wouldn't be sacrificing that much, unlike the endgame content, where yeah if I took pup/dnc/thf over RNG/SAM I'd be sacrificing a hell of a lot. Maybe not in Delve 1, but Delve 1 is easier.