Trials of the Magians and casual players.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

In the world of FFXI old content is a stepping stone to the new content, that's how SE wants it.

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I think that falls along the lines of poor implementation. It's one of the reasons the game lost it's frill towards new commers and another reason why the game is gasping so hard to maintain it's audience. The developers have forgotten how to recreate content. Instead they've gone for making a bigger weapon for bigger monsters. A loop purely meant to suck in a select group of core fans.

No more diversity because the stepping stone is a leap to end game content. It's much like joining a monopoly game with everyone owning 90% of the board having hotels on everything. Within a few turns the new player joining the game already in progress is bankrupted. New comers, returning players and casuals are a lost stepping stone. Old content isn't relevant, most players only care for #1.

No one wants to stay in a rat race or join one that's this hostile towards them. This is a subscription service they might as well join Free Realms, or DC Universe Online. At least those games have content growth that remain relevant to the overall world not just a single expansion.

Trials are something everyone had access to even casuals up until the point where the weapons needed stones. Up till that point weapon trials only had to kill monsters. They didn't need gil large groups of allies or special setups weird KI collecting task. Most of them could build weapons with little or nothing in a few days or a week. I myself managed to create two wind agility daggers to 99 in <24 hours. (weather was awesome that day!) Even the starter weapon was free. Without content updates they don't even amount towards a decent stepping stone.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

1. How does a system that requires set times when it can be done actually benefit the type of player with limited play time?
2. If you're expecting or wanting it to just be something lame like collecting X items then why not be up front and say that?

These questions pertain to the OP's logic of TotM being great for casual players. Answer them as that's the only way you'd be able to enlighten me. Anyone who finds themselves to fit this "casual" player feel free to answer. I'll even go first even though I don't consider myself casual:

1) It doesn't outside of the Weapon Skill paths or until you get to the current final 3 stages of collecting Geodes/_ites as you can farm to make gil and buy them removing the day/weather requirement from those stages.

2) If these were to be further upgraded to match new weapons then I would expect them to require killing unique monsters in SoA zones. Why? Because there is no reason to facilitate making a player even more over powered when taking on old content that was designed to be taken on without SoA weapons/armor.

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Mostly to the first question. Not sure the value of having things on a predictable schedule is getting through. This is VERY important for a casual player, as they can research and plan when/where to work on their trial, and when/where to work on other content. And yes....for probly 90% or more of Magians, it IS predictable in some fashion. Lots of tools/mechanics to help one plan better for completing stages...be that a game calender app, weather tracking, or using a wiki to help track respawn times/conditions for an NM and planning according to the last known conditions in which the target spawned. This is geared almost specifically with the more casual player in mind. They quite literally can progress according to their own schedule, with virtually no reliance on other players (unless they can't solo a target well, they may team up with friends or other people they find that happen to be there for the same targets).

In contrast, the hardcore player may have no issue with standing around shouting, trying to get into pickups, or pushing his/her friends to help build a higher tier weapon--in most cases it's easier for them because there is a lot of tit-for-tat trade off for doing these things. They are in with a crowd that frequently teams up to do the types of things they need done, and so are more comfortable/familiar with the expected protocols for participating in such grouping events. On the other hand, the casual player is more familiar/comfortable with frequently being left to their own devices (unless they have a few friends on the same schedule they team up with from time to time, or put up a /seacom or search other /seacom's and casually team up with others there for the same targets).

So basically, you have always had two vastly different camps. One group has become very dependant on this more laid back, low-pressure approach to gearing and progressing through content. The other group is more accustomed to a more aggressive, faster pace, "scratching each other's backs" approach to barrelling through content. The rewards have always been appropriate to the approach taken for progressing. The slow and steady is stuck with a slow and steady progression through content--but always have the expectation of being able to complete it on their schedule/skill level. The aggressive players are better able to rush through the content, and are more open to the challenge of facing an overpowering foe in order to progress significantly. The main difference here being one group that enjoys a slow /steady progression while facing moderate difficulty along the way, and another group who embraces hardcore mechanics and revel in the prospect of facing a foe that can really f*ck up their day at the drop of a hat.

Basically, in the past the content difficulty and availble gearing options have scaled appropriately for both camps. Both groups could always see a path for progression that suited their expectations and playstyles. But with SOA, that balance has been grossly upset. Now there is a tremendous gap between the groups. The die-hards are rushing it, completing it, and will soon be tired of it and not want to revisit the older entry levels once they've moved on to the newer, harder tiers and are focused on me-me-me and trying to get the next tier of new shinies. The casual, slower progressing players will be reaching the point when there is basically no one willing to lend them a helping hand when they will desperately need it because their gear has not scaled to an appropriate level against the new challenges as has been the case up until now. As content, level caps, and new gears were introduced over the last few years, Magians progressed on par with those advancements, keeping the gear relevant and balanced with the new challenges. That is clearly not the case now with what has happened with SoA.

THAT is what is at the crux of the problem here. The major shift in scaling--or, rather the lack of scaling-- for the players in relation to the new content. Pet issues, accuracy issues, damage output issues, damage mitigation issues, all of it stacking up to big reward for effort issues. HAve to see the bigger picture, projected further down the line as the trend continues with future SoA content additions. At present, it is all grossly skewed to benefit the die-hards and to penalize anyone who is not. What is at risk here if they don't take corrective measures soon, is the potential to drive out anyone who is not "1337". At the very least, it risks dissuading a lot of people from participating in a significant enough way to progresss through the new content at a satisfactory enough rate to keep them subscribing. Effectively, locking a lot of people into just doing older content that soon becomes unrelevant enough for them to continue playing the game. It is basically setting things up for more attrition, which is not good for a company that has been bleeding money for the last 3 or 4 years.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

It is basically setting things up for more attrition, which is not good for a company that has been bleeding money for the last 3 or 4 years.

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I cut out a lot of this but wanted to give RAIST KUDOS, spot on. You enveloped everything and put it in a context thats relevant and understandable. You've clearly been reading this and thinking about it quite a bit.

I'm getting rather tired of hearing "Look, stop complaining and go do delve if you want a decent weapon" I for one have little to no interest in taking part in the event and I think it's rather sad that the game now boils down to one or two new content events that have made the wide range of existing content obsolete. I have absolutely no intention of taking part in events I do not enjoy or indeed, leveling or playing jobs that aren't enjoyable to me as a method of gearing up my main, I've been that route with the old HNMLS scene back at 75 and I'm no longer willing to do something I don't enjoy a hundred times to gain reward that benefit my main. :rolleyes: For me this expansion seems to have made the game far smaller and much, much less pleasant to play.

TLDR: I don't want to do delve and I'm butthurt that the game and elements of the player base seem hell bent on that being the only way to avoid being gimp.

Yeah, also, you have to note that casual players easily can just 'stop'. Act like an expansion never happened. After all, all our old content can be beaten by the gear appropriate for the old content. But that's just it.

While some of us can entertain ourselves for months with everything that existed before SoA, the simple fact is that the new expansion gives us nothing. For many casual players, they have to question if SoA gives them anything at all (not saying it doesn't, one way or another).

I sort of understand it, because I can't think of anyone who will quit because 'the new expansion only has like one thing I care about', so there's a good business sense in catering to the hardcore first, but it's just plain strange to cater to the hardcore only (we will have to see how Monstrosity and the new 'farming' works out but these are fundamentally different types of content anyway).

The other reason is really insidious though. A casual player that has kept themselves at least within some 'acceptable range' of gear/weapons and performance, can respond to a shout, particularly when the group is near full, or has some of their more 'hardcore' friends in it, and expect a response of 'eh sure come along you look decent at least' from some people.

They do get to experience this new, large scale content when it happens to fit into their schedule without needing to climb the ladder in the same way. Sure they're 'being a leech' by some people's standards by not having top gear, but they could usually expect their output to be a contribution. At least enough that 'rejecting them and waiting longer' wasn't automatically a better option.

By not providing as many ways for casuals to 'keep up' without sliding more to the 'hardcore' side of the scale, it increases the rift between the two types of players when dealing with heavier content, and technically makes building groups and fostering friendships harder.

"Hey that guy's doing pretty good for someone without X weapon." - can lead to friendships or at least allies.

"Why did you even invite them? They can't do anything to this." - can easily lead to indifference or worse, toward that player.

We don't need that rift increased, and this is speaking as someone who doesn't even care about it. There's simply no equation in which making casual players completely irrelevant to the point of 'incompetence' in new content can benefit the game as a whole.

Well, at 'least' everyone will have a weapon from the next tier eventually when they are more affordable, right?

This entire thread is quite possibly the best discussion I've read in a very long time, as most MMO-related forums tend to lean towards the "wretched hive of scum and villainy" end of the spectrum. Thank you, ALL of you participating, for the excellent read.

That said, I'd consider myself in the casual camp. I mostly solo or low-man things I'm interested in. Also, I run an event shell where we've worked on several members' Empyrean weapons, helped a few of them get Relics, even managed to eek out a Gandiva for myself.

Then SoA was released.

Within a matter of weeks on my server, nearly all Voidwatch shouts decreased and on some days completely stopped. Neo-Nyzul shouts are fewer still. This, I believe, is one of the points several of you are trying to make: the mad dash for SoA-related "god-gear" has all but killed every other group event in FFXI.

Now, don't get me wrong, I've tried Reives on several jobs, with and without friends there, and found it pretty ridiculous. A friend mentioned it was a lot like Campaign but the way mob hate works (for fails to) in Reives proves otherwise. I even joined a shout or three for Delve. For the remainder of this post, I'll use my Ranger as an example. I am absolutely not an expert at knowing how Delve works, but as a Ranger, I expect to shoot a mob and it takes damage. One group I was in fought that Oboron. In full Ranged Accuracy+ gear with sushi and fully merited as far as I'm concerned there should be ZERO reason I miss a shot and certainly not weapon skills (as far as I know, Jishnu's Radiance doesn't have an accuracy penalty).

1-2 shots would land for minimal damage out of 12-15 shots fired. NOW I understand why SE changed Recycle and Scavenge! I also fully missed not one but TWO Jishnu's Radiance. THAT is ridiculous. and I was so infuriated by the end of it I wanted to crack my Gandiva in half and throw it away. I wasn't the only one either, as fellow Ranger was with me and experiencing the same "fun, exciting new content."

That example, along with the lack of fun to be had doing Reives on any particular job cemented the following in my mind:

1) to be successful at Reives, you must either be an Aegis/Ochain PLD or have one on-call (thankfully, I do have several in my LS).
2) Delve is a vicious circle: to be reasonable at it, you need to have Delve gear. To get Delve gear, one has to be reasonable at it. Round and round. Or just level a job you'd rather not play and prostitute it for plasm farming sessions.

Neither of these are optimal for someone with limited play time. For a player to have a sense of value in a game, especially an MMO, I believe they'd rather not feel as their time is being wasted, especially if it's a limited resource. Additionally, a sense of accomplishment towards an overall goal would be nice instead of a feeling that every job you bring to the table is functionally useless - even with top pre-SoA gear. This I believe is also part of what Randnum, Sarick, RAIST and other have touched upon with their contributions to this thread.

Zagen, I'd like to state here I appreciate your suggestions for alternatives to obtain this new gear and participate in Fracture/Delve. You've given me hope that even a rag-tag group like my shell can eventually Delve it up. I think all of us can agree on one thing, that the SoA content is pretty unbalanced, and noting the post count on this thread, certainly not fun for casuals.

I love your use of prostitute. The first thing that popped in my head was Prostitutes of Adoulin. Needless to say I know a lot of people in your exact position. My profile used to have several Linkshells listed in it several where very prominent. Now those are gone they vanished soon after the latest expansion. It's become a train wreck. My home nation is empty and Jeuno is nearly dead most outside the bazaar players shops.

The I think the trials need to be extended not only to allow players alternative route but bring. casuals up to speck. Other armors could also be upgraded from other expansions in a casual slow paced way. new trials such as damage taken from enemy attacks, elemental damage taken by party, damage cured by party, damage dealt by party, elemental damage dealt by party, successful evasions by or even time equipped while in combat.

The party part isn't to force grouping but to make teaming up acceptable. When people was doing WS trials it made them NOT team up unless the other player had the exact same WS trial. Bad choice of trial.

Look a this quote below from Alhanelem. He also recently made a topic about PVP older content being abandoned. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The only thing I've found boring is waiting for the chance to be able to participate in new content. When I actually do get the chance to play it, it's fun. The problem is the content requires such high end sutff that if you didn't get skirmish/wildskeeper stuff when people were still doing it, you're in a bad spot because your only chance to participate is support role jobs e.g. whm sch brd cor.

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I posted it in full. This player is always posting. He's enjoying the content in the hardcore way. He also admits the casuals won't have a chance to really enjoy it unless they prostitute another job. Is this all that's left for casuals?

Look at this one.

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Originally Posted by Saila

Seems like they have no clue how to make this work successfully, whoever is in charge of this train wreck did a fine job to ruin my first and very last game makes it easy for me to quit it is not fun nor do they want to hear out players at all .

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This game is bleeding real players, unless something is done to diversify the player base play style it's heading for a quick death. Reast said it best.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

At present, it is all grossly skewed to benefit the die-hards and to penalize anyone who is not. What is at risk here if they don't take corrective measures soon, is the potential to drive out anyone who is not "1337". At the very least, it risks dissuading a lot of people from participating in a significant enough way to progresss through the new content at a satisfactory enough rate to keep them subscribing. Effectively, locking a lot of people into just doing older content that soon becomes unrelevant enough for them to continue playing the game. It is basically setting things up for more attrition, which is not good for a company that has been bleeding money for the last 3 or 4 years.

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Something needs done trials worked in the past they can work now.

I feel kind of bad for not posting in my own thread often, but I believe I've already said my piece.

That said, thank you everyone who is keeping the discussion active. :D Based on the likes on the main post, I'd say that a lot of people are in favor of positive changes.

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Originally Posted by Randnum

I didn't specify the 'we', any more than you specified.

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Your 'we' isn't defined, I think it's accepted when left undefined it pertains to the circle of people (i.e. friends) that person does stuff with. However I didn't make that assumption I assumed 'we' was 2+ people.

My 'majority' on the other hand when left undefined does have a finite range, more than half but less than the whole make up a majority (i.e. 51%-99%). So I actually did define it, I asked for you to explain how 51% or even 50.01% of the player base didn't want there to be a progression through content.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

I think that falls along the lines of poor implementation. It's one of the reasons the game lost it's frill towards new commers and another reason why the game is gasping so hard to maintain it's audience. The developers have forgotten how to recreate content. Instead they've gone for making a bigger weapon for bigger monsters. A loop purely meant to suck in a select group of core fans.

No more diversity because the stepping stone is a leap to end game content. It's much like joining a monopoly game with everyone owning 90% of the board having hotels on everything. Within a few turns the new player joining the game already in progress is bankrupted. New comers, returning players and casuals are a lost stepping stone. Old content isn't relevant, most players only care for #1.

No one wants to stay in a rat race or join one that's this hostile towards them. This is a subscription service they might as well join Free Realms, or DC Universe Online. At least those games have content growth that remain relevant to the overall world not just a single expansion.

Trials are something everyone had access to even casuals up until the point where the weapons needed stones. Up till that point weapon trials only had to kill monsters. They didn't need gil large groups of allies or special setups weird KI collecting task. Most of them could build weapons with little or nothing in a few days or a week. I myself managed to create two wind agility daggers to 99 in <24 hours. (weather was awesome that day!) Even the starter weapon was free. Without content updates they don't even amount towards a decent stepping stone.

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You mentioned many other games and you're telling me they don't have content that's out grown? I haven't tried Free Realms but DC Universe I know for certain has zones/gear that become useless once you've leveled to a certain point, i.e. content = stepping stones.

As to the stepping stones being leaps and jumps I disagree, when you take on content in a similar order to how I outlined a few pages back you'll see a more linear progression (except NNI that's just BS luck and gear only reduces the need to bank on said luck).

I completely agree that SE is using an archaic game model but there's a few reasons for that that I can see right off the bat and they all boil down to 2 main reasons:
1) The game is 11 years old.
- Back then Pay to Play was the standard (not that there was much competition), this is an issue as the whole game (including the engine) is built around this system and would require a lot of revamping to make it more up to date with the current trend in the MMO market.

2) The development company doesn't see value in spending resources to revamp their (only?) cash cow.

I think we can agree these are weak reasons if the game was expecting to hit it's 20th anniversary but I don't see that as a goal.

As to RAIST I only caught 2 major points that sort of explain a few things as to where my disconnect is:

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Originally Posted by RAIST

predictable schedule

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This is the issue, the reason for that is when I had a limited play time I found myself being able to log on at random times in other words having a predictable (day of the week) schedule didn't mean anything to me I couldn't plan accordingly.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

The major shift in scaling--or, rather the lack of scaling-- for the players in relation to the new content.

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This is something I disagree with, if you're up to date on previous content then taking on SoA content before acquiring SoA gear isn't a problem (I'm not talking having a R/E/M either). I get that the difference from pre-SoA gear and SoA gear is huge but unless you're in SoA high end you don't need SoA gear. Oh and at the moment "SoA high end" is Delve Fracture Bosses.

You're quite right, Zagen, but I don't think putting the burden of proof on someone else works either. I'm not sure what makes you think that 50% or more of the playerbase did want high gear progression?

Your point to RAIST is also very valid, in that if you are high enough in content, SoA content is probably no problem. The issue is that if you are not, multiple unfavorable things start to happen. Do you also believe that 50% or more of the playerbase are 'up to date on previous content'? Even if we look only at the last Census and make two extrapolations, it can't be so.

1. The number of players with RME weapons across all servers is considerably less than half of the playerbase.
2. It apparently was enough of a problem with elitism to get into groups without one of these weapons, that an overhaul was required.

By this metric, we can jump to two possibly erroneous but very likely conclusions.

1. Damage Dealers without RME, especially without RME at certain levels (90+) are not likely to be up to date on current content.
2. Support Job players (i.e. just 'people with support jobs to play') don't need to be up to date on current content to get SoA gear or even expect to be able to, and furthermore, may be used to this.

So, players who perceive it as 'I'll just go WHM/BRD/COR and support people who have top gear until I get the gear I want', have no reason to bother with older content now. Players who don't perceive it that way but don't have top gear are told to do this. Result, everyone aims for SoA content because either they are used to playing support jobs and advancing through content even when they don't have top gear, or they are DDs with top gear.

Result: Exclusion of DDs without top gear.

I haven't read much of the thread, but as someone who owns a couple 99 REM weapons and would probably be considered leaning towards a hardcore player, I wouldn't really have any problem with them coming up with ways to update magian weapons. It's kinda silly that a system like that designed to "level up" your weapons was completely abandoned. People talk about magian weapons being updated and delve weapons as if the two are mutually exclusive or something. A variety of weapons to choose from wouldn't really be a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

You mentioned many other games and you're telling me they don't have content that's out grown? I haven't tried Free Realms but DC Universe I know for certain has zones/gear that become useless once you've leveled to a certain point, i.e. content = stepping stones.

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It's simple they just add more zones with more games quest and things to do. New content didn't need to be better it only needs more things to do. Look at WotG the campaign system was used to build up ranks and unlock new quest not gear.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

As to the stepping stones being leaps and jumps I disagree, when you take on content in a similar order to how I outlined a few pages back you'll see a more linear progression (except NNI that's just BS luck and gear only reduces the need to bank on said luck).

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I find it a huge leep when most of the casuil players I know barely have abbysea gear +1 sets let alown a single RME. When you look at trials the sword caps out at around 60est I think in attack power. a high end RME weapon especially Empy would cap out at roughly 70ish. The empty would also get the added effect from the weapon skill.

Look at the lowest of the new gear and its almost double the strength of MAXED out trial weapon. When you get into the higher tiers of SoA they're almost triple the damage rating.

If someone told you that a small drink at a convenience store is tiny leap to a to a jumbo you'd smack them upside the head. If you have a Small 8oz, Medium 12oz, Large 16oz and an extra large 32oz gulp sitting on the rack you can see the size differences are experimental. I assume that when you look at the stats between trials and the new gear you don't see the jumps in proportion. You seem to think the maxed out trials are good enough starting gear when they're not. The jump from medium to gulp is double. Consider the capped trials are in between small and medium where the previously capped RMEs barely achieved large.

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Originally Posted by Randnum

You're quite right, Zagen, but I don't think putting the burden of proof on someone else works either. I'm not sure what makes you think that 50% or more of the playerbase did want high gear progression?

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Honestly it was rhetorical because the game from day 1 has been that way, and we still pay to play :)

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Originally Posted by Randnum

Do you also believe that 50% or more of the playerbase are 'up to date on previous content'?

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Honestly I'd dare to say 80% of the player base isn't caught up to content before SoA. That doesn't change my belief about them wanting content stepping stones.

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Originally Posted by Randnum

Result: Exclusion of DDs without top gear.

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Absolutely no disagreement and I understand I'm in the minority when I believe the shouts should read to the effect of "job/weapon" if not a more detailed response explaining how you're good at X job because of Y. Unfortunately TotM never helped this issue. Hell most people will take an 85 masa over a 99 TP Bonus SAM despite math favoring the TP Bonus SAM in many situations.

The only exception to that is Ochain PLD for fracture farming (so far none of the NMs have required it). This is imo the biggest flaw with Delve, while a Twilight Mail/Helm owner (so opens it to Warrior / Paladin / Dark Knight / Beastmaster / Samurai / Dragoon) can replace the PLD and just keep reraising I still think it's flawed.

If fractures required 3/5 NMs to pop the Boss and you had to trade Beads to pop them that would be awesome, but for now it doesn't work that way.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

I find it a huge leep when most of the casuil players I know barely have abbysea gear +1 sets let alown a single RME. When you look at trials the sword caps out at around 60est I think in attack power. a high end RME weapon especially Empy would cap out at roughly 70ish. The empty would also get the added effect from the weapon skill.

Look at the lowest of the new gear and its almost double the strength of MAXED out trial weapon. When you get into the higher tiers of SoA they're almost triple the damage rating.

If someone told you that a small drink at a convenience store is a medium leap to a to a jumbo isn't a small leap. them. If you have a Small 8oz, Medium 12oz, Large 16oz and an extra large 32oz gulp cups sitting on the rack you can see the size differences. I assume that when you look at the stats between trials and the new gear you don't see the jumps in proportion. The jump from large to gulp is double.

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The issue I see here is these players you mention aren't ready for SoA. Once they are ready for SoA they can begin progressing through SoA steps.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

The issue I see here is these players you mention aren't ready for SoA. Once they are ready for SoA they can begin progressing through SoA steps.

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Oh here we go again.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The only thing I've found boring is waiting for the chance to be able to participate in new content. When I actually do get the chance to play it, it's fun. The problem is the content requires such high end sutff that if you didn't get skirmish/wildskeeper stuff when people were still doing it, you're in a bad spot because your only chance to participate is support role jobs e.g. whm sch brd cor.

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This is not casual. Trials are. Again one tunnel visioned path. Everyone be like little sheep and follow that path other content is all but irrelevent and people are Flip'en greedy. They only care for #1 and aren't at all interested in doing old content. Finding players to do this OLD content isn't casual.

RAIST has already explained that casuals are more prone to being left to their own devices IE: trials or soloed content. Most of the older content your talking about to prepare them requires much of the small group shouting etc. trials where meant to grow with the player as with each time the level cap was raised they added new ones to keep them up to date.

I still don't think you get it. Casuals don't want the HARDCORE paths created by the developers they want the slow and steady paths that they can so on their own. The crap you keep trying to foist into casuals is just play hardcore like everyone else. Either you fail to grasp the diversity needs to make a fun game for everyone or the concept people have been trying to explain is so alien that it's impossible for you to interpret.

If a new casual player started today they'd have very very very little chance at being ready for even the lowest tier content. In fact they'd have an extremely hard time coming close to being ready for SoA content. Getting the old content leaves them at a severe disadvantage (barely anyone is doing it! and they don't have the resources to solo it. The minimal setup for older content completion requires a few really well geared players or mid sized groups of poorly geared players to complete them.

You just can't understand the large rift between content steps leaves casuals at a severe disadvantage to people like yourself that have already did them. Trials are a path for casuals not hardcore players. They where made so EVERYONE could develop decent weapons without RMT like activities to buy AH crap.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Oh here we go again.

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What? You're creating situations where that's the answer.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

I still don't think you get it. Casuals don't want the HARDCORE paths created by the developers they want the slow and steady paths that they can so on their own.

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Okay so you want casual players to partake in content designed to challenge the hardcore? It doesn't work that way.

If you want that to happen one of 2 things has to happen:
1) Gear up to relevant levels to take on said content. R/E/M/D isn't required unless talking about the final bosses in fractures (they are just more helpful despite people requiring them).
2) Wait until new hardcore content is released and the current hardcore content gets toned down to become easier.

I don't get your problem to be honest. These slow and steady paths you want are already in game and as mentioned in #2 even more will get added when the difficulty level gets toned down.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Okay so you want casual players to partake in content designed to challenge the hardcore? It doesn't work that way.

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Sure why not. RME are in essence higher tier trials for better versions. After people throw a fit the developers finally caved and gave those trials extensions so they would remain relevant to new content growth. The difference between the RME trials and the casual trials where upgrade RME versions where considered decent for the latest content. The maxed out casual trials are below decent (poor, weak) after the expansion was added.

There is also another thing you failed to acknowledge. Players can buy gear that exceeds the strength of RME gear that isn't fully leveled to 99. This invalidates your argument entirely. If a casual player can somehow manage to get a few million gil they can buy equipment well beyond what most of the unfinished RME weapons players had. So your position that it's not fair for players to have equipment designed for the hardcore is irrelevant. The developers already screwed the players with partially complete RME versions. The only difference between hardcore and casuals would be the use of different steps to get the HARDCORE base equipment.

More or less your telling players that might not have a chance to get good enough gear from older content or trials (I explained this) they should purchase gil or quit because they don't deserve anything even decently near that content. So typical. Like I said most players are greedy and care only about #1. You've failed to recognize the rifts left by the new content and don't seem to give a damn about the needs of the casual players.
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The only reason someone would want to suppress casual trials is to inflate the egos of the hardcore audience. Clearly a few people are all for them getting updated. Just look at the likes on the original post. This says a lot more then the arguments you've been rabidly hitting reload to respond to on your browser. Is it that important for you to deny players with differing play styles a chance to advance in their own way? If that's the case then it comes closer to a moral issue where the elitist are controlling the show. Its no longer design/development issue if that's agenda behind such reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

2) Wait until new hardcore content is released and the current hardcore content gets toned down to become easier.

I don't get your problem to be honest. These slow and steady paths you want are already in game and as mentioned in #2 even more will get added when the difficulty level gets toned down.

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So the casual user base should just stop everything and wait for the content. In other words "JUST QUIT THE GAME." Wonderful advice for a game company that's already bleeding it's fan base and money. Much like the situation where people who waited for Voidwalker (older content) toned down. Now they'll be lucky to get warps unlocked if they didn't play the content when it FIRST came out.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

More or less your telling players that might not have a chance to get good enough gear from older content or trials (I explained this) they should purchase gil or quit because they don't deserve anything even decently near that content. So typical. Like I said most players are greedy and care only about #1. You've failed to recognize the rifts left by the new content and don't seem to give a damn about the needs of the casual players.

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Pot calling the kettle black, genius! Don't get it? You're being greedy by wanting to be able to accomplish the same things someone who puts in more dedication than you are able/willing to do at the exact same time as them.

Again TotM actually caters to the player who can dedicate more time to the game and/or move real life things around to make "predictable" requirements as RAIST put it. In either case you're completely missing the point.

Even if TotM weapons were updated to compete with delve weapons you won't be getting invited if you skipped too many of the older content. Armor is just as important as your weapons...

What Rifts? You mean VW the gear that was made almost completely useless by other events that are easier to do? Oh maybe you mean NNI which there's Salvage 2 very small man friendly and there's Bayld Armor both of which compete with a lot of that gear.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

So the casual user base should just stop everything and wait for the content. In other words "JUST QUIT THE GAME." Wonderful advice for a game company that's already bleeding it's fan base and money. Much like the situation where people who waited for Voidwalker (older content) toned down. Now they'll be lucky to get warps unlocked if they didn't play the content when it FIRST came out.

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Don't you have a bunch of other content to work on? If you don't then why do you need to wait? You're already geared and capable to take on SoA. In other words you'd fall under having completed #1 and #2 is irrelevant to you.

ITT: You're hardcore if you have common sense and average or better gear/weapons.

Umm w/ SoA content, even if u get the older content via weapons/gear there's a high chance u won't get invited still as a casual player. Now that i've seen on my server(Lakshmi), they only accept those who have R/E/M/D weapons and mostly 2-handed. They won't invite a new person if they don't know wth they are doing hence they won't teach them cause they'll think that they know what to do. With a casual player that's frustration waiting to happen if u got a really good friend to let u in. More than likely they will pass the new content and head to the old since there is more things to do or they will quit and find something else that is much easier for them to accomplish.

I would love to see more new trials, when TotM were updated every update I really looked forward to what I could do and what I would get from it. Once they stopped, I really didn't play much any more and I eventually quit for quite a while. It was great because you would always have something you could go do while you were waiting for end game type events to happen.

umm.. think we need to clear a few things up here. I apologize in advance Zagen, not really trying to pick on you or anything, it's just that your posts seem to be so indicative of the mentality we are at odds with on this issue, and it's just easier to focus on your posts simply because they give so much to work with from a debate perspective. Sorry if it seems to ramble a bit...there's just so much messed up in the game right now, and there has been a lot of chatter over it amongst friends, so I have a lot going on in my head when it comes to this issue.

And now, for the great wall of text...probly going to be a lot of editing after I upload this, seeing as my html skills are sorely lacking:

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Originally Posted by Zagen

As to RAIST I only caught 2 major points that sort of explain a few things as to where my disconnect is:

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Originally Posted by RAIST
predictable schedule

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This is the issue, the reason for that is when I had a limited play time I found myself being able to log on at random times in other words having a predictable (day of the week) schedule didn't mean anything to me I couldn't plan accordingly.

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Not sure you're fully grasping the concept. It's not just DAYS that are predictable. Weather is predictable too. So, in this case, you may have been shooting yourself in the foot by just focusing on days only. the point is, you can know in advance if your next session will be a good day to try to advance your trial or not, and plan accordingly. For example, I already know, right now, at roughly 6PM Eastern, on May 20, 2013 that I can expect to catch fire weather in Kuzots tomorrow between 4:45PM and 5:43PM. If it were my half day tomorrow (unfortunately, it's next week), I already know that I can plan to catch the weather in that window if I have viable targets in that zone. I also know from past experience that fire weather can pop with some consistency in some years from Nov. 7-16 in game, which falls later that evening, so there is a possibility I may still be able to catch it after diner as well. I can check the weather report before I log on at the website, or with the NPC when I do log in, and head out if it's a good window.

The point is, I can know all of this well enough ahead of time to plan my gaming session according to what I know is going to be available when I expect to be in game (or at least reasonably expect to happen during that time frame), and plan my gaming activities according to whether those opportunities will exist or not. It's not about planning my life around the game, which you seemed to be hinting at in a more recent post.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Again TotM actually caters to the player who can dedicate more time to the game and/or move real life things around to make "predictable" requirements as RAIST put it. In either case you're completely missing the point.

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You actually appear to be missing the point. It isn't about moving your life around the game, it's about moving the game activities around to make better use of your in-game time without having to move around your life.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

This is something I disagree with, if you're up to date on previous content then taking on SoA content before acquiring SoA gear isn't a problem (I'm not talking having a R/E/M either). I get that the difference from pre-SoA gear and SoA gear is huge but unless you're in SoA high end you don't need SoA gear. Oh and at the moment "SoA high end" is Delve Fracture Bosses.

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This and several other posts seem to indicate you have an even bigger disconnect with what the problem is when it comes to the magian paths.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

The issue I see here is these players you mention aren't ready for SoA. Once they are ready for SoA they can begin progressing through SoA steps.

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That is the point....the nature of the playerbase is more or less denying them a reasonable expectation of reaching that so called "level of preparedness". By the way, this is not an actual level of preparedness as dictated necessarily by game design, it is a level of preparedness as dictated by the playerbase. It is basically, "if you don't have this and that in your repertoire, you can't attend the event". The problem is, in order to meet the player demanded requirements to be invited, one needs help from players that have already surpassed that level, moved on, and have little to no interest in helping them get up to spec. So...once again, those players are being left to fend for themselves. A lot of those top end gears needed for acceptance is only obtainable by participating in content that requires grouping by design.

Important note there...you can't even obtain some of the base gear that these casuals are expected to obtain without first being in a group to even enter the freaking battlefields just to obtain the base items, much less progrees them towards the finished product so that you can augment them further via Magians. Has that simple point managed to even register on the brain yet? We are talking about players that have virtually been relegated to soloing or possible dual-boxing in order to obtain reasonably powerful gear, and the player base is expecting them to have gear that REQUIRES group play for entry (that virtually no one has an interest in helping them with) to even stand a chance to obtain. whoah.. lost focus there for a bit....

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Originally Posted by Zagen

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Originally Posted by Zagen

The issue I see here is these players you mention aren't ready for SoA. Once they are ready for SoA they can begin progressing through SoA steps.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Oh here we go again.

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What? You're creating situations where that's the answer.

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Umm.. no.. those situations actually DO exist already. We'res just using them to try to make a point.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Okay so you want casual players to partake in content designed to challenge the hardcore? It doesn't work that way.

If you want that to happen one of 2 things has to happen:
1) Gear up to relevant levels to take on said content. R/E/M/D isn't required unless talking about the final bosses in fractures (they are just more helpful despite people requiring them).
2) Wait until new hardcore content is released and the current hardcore content gets toned down to become easier.

I don't get your problem to be honest. These slow and steady paths you want are already in game and as mentioned in #2 even more will get added when the difficulty level gets toned down.

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Again, you seem to be missing the mark. Guess we're going to have to try to break this down into even more detail to try to make it more clear.

Up until SOA, when newer, harder content was added, SE added new tiers to Magians to help bring everyone up to a newer level of gearing so that they could remain relevant enough to participate in the new content with a reasonable level of success. This maintained the balance of the higher quality player with their top-end gears that would accell at content clears much faster, but still maintained a reasonable enough opportunity for the less fortunate players to get the clears. Granted, some may fall on their face repeatedly until they found a way, but there was a close enough expectation for them to keep trying. For instance, let's examine the NIN katanas.

There was a reasonably attainable weapon that could be completed within just a few weeks by a more dedicated casual player, (perhaps a month or so by the more laid back player) Despite the ease of the DA Katan's upgrade paths, this weapon could actually hold it's own against a level 90 Kannagi in terms of potential DPS. And yes, that was comparing raw numbers for Jin with the DA compared against Hi with the Empy. If you compare Jin with both weapons, the DA yielded potentially more DPS over time. Plug them into one of the Excel spreadsheets and see for yourself--the numbers showed them to be fairly balanced. They would come within 1 DPS of each other under normal, static conditions when all other gearing and such was constant. Yet, they had vastly different paths, requiring vastly differrent levels of dedication.

That Kannaghi required you to progress all the way through the same starter NM's, then a host of other NM's including repeated killings of Briarius, Sobek, and Apademak to make. Not exactly a fun path for the casual player most often left to their own devices. In contrast, that Majimum could be COMPLETELY soloed by a casual player. No day/weather requirements... no screwy mechanincs outside of ToD/Respawn timers for the early NM's, and having to either attend events to farm the end items, or simply purchasing them with currencies earned from playing the game from either NPC's or other player's bazaars (and rather cheaply, I might add once prices settled down). Now, getting past that level 90 Kannagi required a little more chutzpah than the typical casual player may have, and as such appropriately rewards that dedication with about a 7.6% increase in DPS over the level 90---but it was only about a 6.66% increase over a Majimun with Jin (all things being equal).

So, up until SOA, BOTH camps had highly sought after weapons, that were fairly close in expected output. Basically, it kept the bar for gear acquisition well enough in balance with the content that all could contribute reasonably enough to foster inclusion in events, even though the casual player may not have had the best weapon. What we have now is a giant leap to where that bar has been moved. The analgy of the cups put it quite nicely, and fairly accurately (but actually, it was 12-16oz then vs 12-32oz now). What needs to happen is we need a way to basically go from a 12-24 oz for the casual, seeing as the hardcores got to go from 16 to 32 in the span of just one month. Keep in mind, that all these previous advancements to magians from the entry level to the current top were broken out over what... 12 times that time frame? Forget the exact time line, but it was a loooong time frame--and yet, during that whole time, they managed to keep things in check. With what they've been doing in SoA, they have CLEARLY advanced the top tier players, while leaving everyone one else behind. All we're asking for is for them to maintain the balance.

We are simply asking for them to continue what has become the norm for the system since it's addition, especially in light of evidence that it is still not complete and there is clearly a pattern that can be followed to potentially extend the system further to better balance the disparity. As mentioned earlier, it is pretty evident that some of those tiers were unfinished. Go back and look at the two weapons I referenced earlier in the thread.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post434472
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__.../Trial3399.png
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__.../Trial3442.jpg

Those stats are clearly not finalized, and every weapon class has multiple examples like this--it isn't just a couple here and there, and not for irrelevant weapons either, I might add. So it would appear that SE intened to add at LEAST one more tier to the system.

My main question, is why the h3ll haven't those tiers been added yet? They could have come out with Wildkeepers--at the very least when Delve was added. What gives?

More or less this is all in response to RAIST:

Weather has never been 100% that's why I excluded it and only mentioned days as those are 100%. I've actually gone days when reports said X weather would happen with a chance of clear skies and all I got was clear skies.

TotM at least on my server has never been an acceptable alternative to R/E/M when we're talking elitism segregation.

I think you're missing par of my point because when I'm talking about a time issue I'm exclusively talking about the weather paths to be more specific weather paths besides dark and ice. NM path is a bit of a time issue but not as bad because it's rarely camped and even if it is there is 0 reason not to give info on ToD and team up. All other paths are time independent (besides the time wasted doing them).

I don't disagree the TotM weapons looking unfinished (yellow text). There's a catch 22 with that though, I mean if you look at delve and skirmish augments they are both yellow yet that only means they can be changed (not something that TotM can do) which makes even less sense when you try to rationalize text color defining anything.

I have a question that's sort of been running in the back of my head: What's the point of updating TotM if you don't plan to partake in the new SoA content? If you do plan on partaking then what's the problem with moving on past TotM (disregarding DWers)?

Edit: The only argument I can come up with for the second part of my question is that you can't/won't join/lead clear shouts.

No one has any problem doing the new content, the problem is that who is gonna invite those who doesn't have basically endgame weaponry, a specific job that THEY don't want to play, and the time to do it?

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Originally Posted by Osmond

No one has any problem doing the new content, the problem is that who is gonna invite those who doesn't have basically endgame weaponry, a specific job that THEY don't want to play, and the time to do it?

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TotM at current values are enough to do the introductory content (I'm including all delve besides the fracture bosses there). The issue there is elitism segregation. If TotM never prevented elitism segregation when R/E/M became the norm for shouts what makes you think that would change unless they were beefed up to the point they competed with mid/fully upgraded delve weapons? At which point begs the question what's the point of doing Delve.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

At which point begs the question what's the point of doing Delve.

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I thought the whole point in Delve IS to abolish R/E/M/TotM weaponry altogether. To make it sound like not only your current gear is useless in the latest expansion, but to surpass it tenfold. I was wondering wth was SE thinking when I saw it on FFXIAH.com. I said to myself that surely they wouldn't do this, cause it would completely unbalance the game even more.

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Originally Posted by Osmond

I thought the whole point in Delve IS to abolish R/E/M/TotM weaponry altogether. To make it sound like not only your current gear is useless in the latest expansion, but to surpass it tenfold. I was wondering wth was SE thinking when I saw it on FFXIAH.com. I said to myself that surely they wouldn't do this, cause it would completely unbalance the game even more.

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Haha maybe it is, at least they're saying they have plans to keep R/E/M from becoming useless. Though Emps lose a lot if coin weapons will allow the WS to be unlocked.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

More or less this is all in response to RAIST:

Weather has never been 100% that's why I excluded it and only mentioned days as those are 100%. I've actually gone days when reports said X weather would happen with a chance of clear skies and all I got was clear skies.

TotM at least on my server has never been an acceptable alternative to R/E/M when we're talking elitism segregation.

I think you're missing par of my point because when I'm talking about a time issue I'm exclusively talking about the weather paths to be more specific weather paths besides dark and ice. NM path is a bit of a time issue but not as bad because it's rarely camped and even if it is there is 0 reason not to give info on ToD and team up. All other paths are time independent (besides the time wasted doing them).

I don't disagree the TotM weapons looking unfinished (yellow text). There's a catch 22 with that though, I mean if you look at delve and skirmish augments they are both yellow yet that only means they can be changed (not something that TotM can do) which makes even less sense when you try to rationalize text color defining anything.

I have a question that's sort of been running in the back of my head: What's the point of updating TotM if you don't plan to partake in the new SoA content? If you do plan on partaking then what's the problem with moving on past TotM (disregarding DWers)?

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But, weather IS predictable. The cycle repeats itself 100%, the trick is in understanding the pattern well enough to use it to your advantage. Otherwise, I would not have been able to finish my fire weapons in a span of around 2 weeks while working overtime each week. After my first week in SoA, I got to work on some new staves for my avatars for testing. In 2 1/2 weeks, I made both and ACC and ATT staff for my avatars to their final +2 stage (turned in 15 geodes) for testing in reives. Trust me, you can predict weather enough to use it to your advantage.

As to the point of advancing Magians to higher teirs....it's for the same purpose as I <thought> we've already explained. Groups are not open to including people with the current top level magian gears, simply because they are not deemed worthy. However, if they were to advance them in the same manner as before, keeping them close enough in spec so that they would be accepted into the fold, then they have a chance to obtain the gears while everyone is doing them.

Think this through withy me. What happens if they are excluded well past the point that they can get no help with the content? What if the decide they're going to finally bite the bullet and try to get those base items so they can get in the groups, only to find (again) no one will help them with the content--something that is required in order to obtain RME, mind you. Then how do they obtain better gear if they can't do it thorugh Magians? AH? For what, 6M+ a pop? So, now, they have to either RMT or bust their buts raising gil with all the limited time they have? OK, so they manage to get the gil for the AH gears.... guess what.... everyone is moved on , and they still can't solo the content to get the better gears. Now what? They're stuck until they can gather enough lost souls to muddle through it all.

Keep in mind, while all this is taking place, the world of Vanadiel has continued to move forward at an increasing pace. These players eventually come to the realization that they are just falling further and further behind and they just can't seem to get a leg up.

At what point do they finally just give up and quit? How many complaints from struggling players, or how much loss of revenue from exasperated players that quit does it take for SE to notice there is a problem? What does this say to potential players of SE's next big release if they are willing to just flat out ignore such a large portion of the playerbase? Just how much is REALLY at stake here over this situation, not just the here and now, but for the future as well?

This isn't about just you, me, or 90 other players on the forums that agree/disagree with our posts.

This is about SE's current direction for development...
how it affects their reputation, their revenues...
and ultimately, their future.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Haha maybe it is, at least they're saying they have plans to keep R/E/M from becoming useless. Though Emps lose a lot if coin weapons will allow the WS to be unlocked.

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They have no choice. U can't expect ppl to be happy w/ what they have after doing all this crap just to get it only to be obsolete by weapons that out dmg 3x even w/ TotM to reach 90+. The only thing that R/E/M weapons are good for is the WS imo, but I could be wrong. The other side is that other ppl want the rest of the TotM weapons to have the fair share, but it got thrown under the bus cause in SE's eyes they are irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

TotM at current values are enough to do the introductory content (I'm including all delve besides the fracture bosses there). The issue there is elitism segregation. If TotM never prevented elitism segregation when R/E/M became the norm for shouts what makes you think that would change unless they were beefed up to the point they competed with mid/fully upgraded delve weapons? At which point begs the question what's the point of doing Delve.

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And this is where Zagen's logic beats anything we can say, no sarcasm. The only flaw here is that the stick that dangles the carrot got further away and human nature wasn't taken into account.

Why do casual players want to participate in SoA content? Let's assume radically for a moment that they don't, but not all of them have large friend groups. Let's assume that they used to jump into Voidwatch shouts with the one or two friends they had that were online, and did other stuff during the downtime.

Stick got longer, Voidwatch shouts vanish, and they DID actually finish the 'other stuff' for the most part (assume Magian weapon level 99), now they have nothing to do.

However I'm willing to assume right now that Zagen is more right than that. As long as all early delve content can be beaten by a group of good players with ToTM weapons, then ToTM is no longer needed, it would just be really nice to have, as content to act as that alternative to endgame shout responding.

Note that this may just be bias on my part due to complete lack of interest in SoA. I can see up to a point, but I have to admit that I have nothing more than analysis to go on when it comes to 'what happens to a casual player's playtime'. I hope there's still stuff for them to do that a person with a few friends and only average organizational skill, can still get into, or I believe a lot of people will move on.

And on that note I'll continue to support ToTM expansion even if only because it will prevent those people from feeling excluded and moving on.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

TotM at current values are enough to do the introductory content (I'm including all delve besides the fracture bosses there). The issue there is elitism segregation. If TotM never prevented elitism segregation when R/E/M became the norm for shouts what makes you think that would change unless they were beefed up to the point they competed with mid/fully upgraded delve weapons? At which point begs the question what's the point of doing Delve.

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Think this post finally shows a big problem with the debate.

This is not something that we "think"...it is not a hypothetical.

This very thing is happening---the players are rejecting Magian equipped players, pure and simple.

Let me repeat that, in case it is still being missed, regardless of how many times it has been pointed out:

people are being rejected because of gear selection.

Why? Because of the stats on the gear. It isn't because of their understanding/mastery of their job or the event---it is purely judgement made against their gear stats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zagen

TotM at current values are enough to do the introductory content (I'm including all delve besides the fracture bosses there). The issue there is elitism segregation. If TotM never prevented elitism segregation when R/E/M became the norm for shouts what makes you think that would change unless they were beefed up to the point they competed with mid/fully upgraded delve weapons? At which point begs the question what's the point of doing Delve.

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This here is why I support the expansion of TotM weapons, and coupled with how hard it can be to get assistance with some older content. Just consider the level of shouts for Abyssea and Voidwatch related content pre and post Delve release. And while a weapon alone does not make it possible to do content, it is one of the pieces of gear that has a more noticeable impact on performance.

One job that this becomes really noticeable on is PLD, and its not because of their weapon, but their shield. As one pretty much needs to have Ochain or Aegis to be considered for any content deemed challenging. Now consider a newish player that may only like playing PLD, how are they going to get up to speed without massive help or leveling a job they don't like to 99?

Another thing to keep in mind, there are also those that don't want to do some of the new content because they don't want to feel like dead weight because they don't have average gear yet. As who wants to be the DD doing an average of 5dps when every other DD in the group is doing 20+DPS? They might be willing to try it once, but it is noticeable really quickly if one is under performing or not if don't filter out everything but your own actions. A great example of this comes from DD's and needing Scorpion Harness or Haubergeon back in the day as it made such a huge difference in their performance. This also applies to asking for help from a person's linkshell all the time just to get up to speed.

Along with the ways to get bayld either involving dealing with T+ monsters which not every job can do without above average gear, or activities that most would find boring quickly. How many people do you think find HELM activities or running back and forth between two points engaging? Added to this is the fact the item needed to obtain bayld without doing combat of some sort only can store up to a certain point and slowly rebuilds over time. Who wants to have to consistently do nothing but legwork quests and farming to be able to participate in more community active content?

So really there are a lot of things combining here to make this gap problem. From finding the new baseline content boring and uninteresting to not be able to do alternatives due to lack of help. But all in all, it boils down to a rift between well geared players and everyone else, and looking ahead to when Delve is no longer the "End Game" content, as SE did mention there are plans for that to be able to happen, as per this quote.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Fundamentally we will be making it so that the content level for content to come in the future continues to become higher, but there may be cases where we fill in areas where there is a large jump in content level as needed.

Also, in order to make it so there are various types of content sprawled across a single content level, we are supplementing it with content variations. We've also designed plans to enable resting periods where we will expand laterally instead of vertically, because players may get burnt out going full steam ahead.

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Expanding TotM would fall in that lateral expansion, and depending on how it is done, can get more people involved in the new content. As it is, outside of Delve gear, most of the SoA equipment is barely sidegrades to already existing gear, which might help explain why lots of activity for non-Delve gear dried up shortly after Delve started getting put more on a farm state by those better geared. However when ever there is a vertical increase, older content that other players, especially newer ones, still need becomes mostly abandoned if there is nothing relevant to those going after the top end gear. Just the drop in colonization rates post Delve shows how fast that happens. And the bigger worry they should have then players getting burnt out going full steam ahead is players getting totally left in the dust because support for lower content levels vanishing, which is something expanded TotM would help alleviate.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

Think this post finally shows a big problem with the debate.

This is not something that we "think"...it is not a hypothetical.

This very thing is happening---the players are rejecting Magian equipped players, pure and simple.

Let me repeat that, in case it is still being missed, regardless of how many times it has been pointed out:

people are being rejected because of gear selection.

Why? Because of the stats on the gear. It isn't because of their understanding/mastery of their job or the event---it is purely judgement made against their gear stats.

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And TotM was never equipment that prevented you from being rejected.

Let's take VW for example when it was the latest thing to do and I had just came back to the game after a long break. I couldn't say "TP Bonus SAM Shoha 5/5" and get in despite the fact that TP Bonus was a stronger weapon than Masa 85. I had to state my other gear, the fact I had a true 5 hit, that I had the KI to call out procs, and even said I would be spamming possible procs to reduce time to finding procs in case GK was one of them. At that point I was finally invited into the group only to find 2 85 masa SAMs who it turned out never gear swapped.

Yeah updating TotM is really going to get you in with the elitist idiot crowd.

I don't know what world you guys all live in where TotM made you valuable but I sure as hell wish it was on my server.

Edit:

Almost forgot about this:

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Originally Posted by RAIST

But, weather IS predictable. The cycle repeats itself 100%, the trick is in understanding the pattern well enough to use it to your advantage.

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Where are your results showing the pattern so that other players can benefit from this? I ask because I never noticed a pattern and if there is one that's amazing information to have.

Though I'm curious when you talk about the cycle repeating itself are you talking about the seasons which is fairly common knowledge when you begin to research weather effects. However still doesn't make weather happen 100% of the time, or do you mean weather within a cycle will appear 100% of the time at X time (X being defined by the cycle).

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Originally Posted by Zagen

And TotM was never equipment that prevented you from being rejected.

Let's take VW for example when it was the latest thing to do and I had just came back to the game after a long break. I couldn't say "TP Bonus SAM Shoha 5/5" and get in despite the fact that TP Bonus was a stronger weapon than Masa 85. I had to state my other gear, the fact I had a true 5 hit, that I had the KI to call out procs, and even said I would be spamming possible procs to reduce time to finding procs in case GK was one of them. At that point I was finally invited into the group only to find 2 85 masa SAMs who it turned out never gear swapped.

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This here goes to show why expanding them would be beneficial. As if all your other gear is well put together, it gave you a chance to participate in the more end game like content.

They gave more options for hitting that baseline to be able to participate. The big reason RME holders other gear is not questioned as much, is because most people that have mostly finished RME are assumed to have the other baseline gear for a job simply because of the amount of investment that goes into a RME.

Expanding the magian weapons would not solve the exclusionary attitude the end game crowd has, but it would help in alleviating the growing problem of players getting left behind or stuck. The only real reason this is becoming an issue is because of how big and how fast the increases in top of the line gear came, and the future looks to include more jumps like this. If you don't see this as much of an issue, consider what a brand new player would have to do to get caught up to a point to be able to make decent contributions in the baseline events for the active community on anything but a support job.

Just compare a finished magian weapon to the "intro" Bayld weapons. The magian weapons do not need to keep up with all the current endgame equipment, but they should keep up with future "intro" weapons, especially since we have seen the trend of players to mostly abandon content once there are clear upgrades instead of side grades. If Delve plasm weapons become the new "intro" weapons, would it hurt for magian weapons with their more varied effects to get close to them?

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Originally Posted by Zagen

And TotM was never equipment that prevented you from being rejected.

Let's take VW for example when it was the latest thing to do and I had just came back to the game after a long break. I couldn't say "TP Bonus SAM Shoha 5/5" and get in despite the fact that TP Bonus was a stronger weapon than Masa 85. I had to state my other gear, the fact I had a true 5 hit, that I had the KI to call out procs, and even said I would be spamming possible procs to reduce time to finding procs in case GK was one of them. At that point I was finally invited into the group only to find 2 85 masa SAMs who it turned out never gear swapped.

Yeah updating TotM is really going to get you in with the elitist idiot crowd.

I don't know what world you guys all live in where TotM made you valuable but I sure as hell wish it was on my server.

Edit:

Almost forgot about this:


Where are your results showing the pattern so that other players can benefit from this? I ask because I never noticed a pattern and if there is one that's amazing information to have.

Though I'm curious when you talk about the cycle repeating itself are you talking about the seasons which is fairly common knowledge when you begin to research weather effects. However still doesn't make weather happen 100% of the time, or do you mean weather within a cycle will appear 100% of the time at X time (X being defined by the cycle).

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You are in a way proving the point. Before, you were able to discuss it and work your way in. Now, they are very adamant about it....have this level of gear, or get out. Some of the shouts will even clearly state delve gear only. There's a thread over at alla addressing some observed impact of how strict these groups are being:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...87536238736968

As for the weather, the cycle simply repeats itself. I've discussed it in previous threads about how I started jotting down when I saw fire popping when doing trials for myself and friends because it simply felt like it was following a pattern. So, I started tracking it more actively. Whenever I saw dates/zones line up again, I would see it follow the tracked dates/zones exactly 100% again. I only have a few really good years that have a lot of dates listed, so I'm not 100% sure on the actual length for when it repeats, but it is not longer then 12 years. Each time I've used the list to plan dates, I'd pick up new ones I missed the last time and update it periodically. Perhaps I'll eventually be able to see it is a shorter time frame, but I can usually plot a decent course once every two weeks when needed--and it has worked for me without fail for over 2 years now. Some noteworthy game dates to watch for are March 16th and Oct. 20th---a RL week that falls between those dates in game will typically provide your best opportunities to find fire weather.

But, even without such a detailed tracking for a particular element, you can at least track it by season and plan for it to some extent. The bazaar info charts only cover partial sets for one year, but it is enough to give you a general hint of when to look for what elements in each zone it tracked. If you catch a strong week or weekend for your target, make a note of the game dates. In roughly 2 RL weeks, it may very well repeat again (or at least be close to it). The more you do it, the better you get at pinpointing it. The trick is to either use the tools out there to give you a heads-up in advance, or just simply use some common sense sometimes. You have a beach, it's the hottest time of the year....you'd be surprised how many times I've caught fire weather in Terrigan and Mt. Z that wasn't forecast. Not cheezy 5 minute cycles either, but entire afternoons worth (close to 20 minutes--plenty of time to make some progress with EP mobs that die really fast). Same goes for Light. Arouras sort of take their queues from real life also. You may be surprised just how often you may catch what you need if you really put your mind to it.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

You are in a way proving the point. Before, you were able to discuss it and work your way in. Now, they are very adamant about it....have this level of gear, or get out. Some of the shouts will even clearly state delve gear only. There's a thread over at alla addressing some observed impact of how strict these groups are being:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...87536238736968

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I have yet to see anything to that degree well there's 1 group that might do that but the majority of them sound like the OP of the post. I mentioned it earlier but on Bismarck the only stickler has been PLD with Ochain. I've seen a lot of DDs that are magian DDs, they gear swap and pop food so not halfassing it, granted for all I know the leader was told all this much like I did in my VW example.

When I go on COR, SCH, WHM I just send "Job Do you need it?" and well I can count on 1 hand where I got asked follow up questions. Obviously those are jobs people tend to ignore as long as they function but again it goes against the OP you linked. I have sent "PUP Do you need it?" kind of as a joke and the response I got was "sure, if you're boasting PUP you either have some balls or it's fairly pimp" I didn't let them down but I couldn't help but laugh.

Don't get me wrong I get that elitism is a real problem, I'm not trying to belittle it but TotM isn't going to fix that. Changing Delve as well as the way acquiring the required KI to access it as a leader.

I mentioned one of these earlier but a couple ideas, maybe I'll make a post in general to see how many likes that gets.

1) Reverse how NMs and Beads work. Beads pop NMs instead of them being popped.

It's obvious by now or should be to SE most of the time we're just holding the NMs instead of actually killing them. Removing them would remove the requirement of 1-2 Ochain PLD which is a huge bottle neck.

2) Allow players to enter Wildskeeper Rieve without having the KI, they can get drops but no KI reward.

This makes it more like VW and gives players who already have the KI to enter Delve a reason to help people trying to get the KI.

Ideas like this (not saying mine are awesome just examples) are ideas that will allow more players to have access while still keeping the really good stuff fairly exclusive to the people who are "hardcore". More players having access in turn lightens the elitism in groups.

I wouldn't outright be mad if TotM was expanded/updated after all I have the means to power through just about w/e they come up with. However TotM being expanded to the point of competing even with Skirmish weapons reduces the pool of players willing to do Delve.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

Weather Research

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Damn it's as I feared. Yeah that kind of works in the sense you get an idea of when you can log back in but it isn't a 100% kinda thing :/

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Originally Posted by MakkotoParinne

As with my other thread concerning Walk of Echoes weapons, I have a few concerns and questions regarding Trials of the Magians and the casual playerbase.

It's all well and good that the super weapons of the expansion have come to fruition, and there are plans to increase R/M/E weapons in damage and practicality. These changes will keep many people happy and have goals to strive for in the new content.

However, there are also many people who do not have R/M/E to start with and instead focus on Trials of the Magians in their spare time. With the implementation of the new weapons that completely and utterly outclass Trials of the Magians, and with R/M/E getting upgraded, what will become of the Trials of the Magians system and weapons?

Surely this system was not implemented to be unused in such a short amount of time. Will all of the gil and time spent here as well be discarded in favor of the Adoulin expansion rewards? I'm curious to see if Trials of the Magians will have new trials added to keep the content relevant as a lower difficulty-lower tier reward option for those who don't have the time or desire to make a R/M/E weapon or try their luck in Delve/Skirmish without one.

Casual players like to set goals, too. I thought that's why TotM was implemented in the first place, so everyone could have something they can grind every day and accomplish over time.

Thank you for reading.

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Trial of magian weapons aren't much more friendly to casual players than delve weapons. Trial of magian needs to be done on certain day, and casual players often ended up log on wrong day during their playtime and have a hard time to get it done. You also need AoE burn jobs to kill it efficiently. Certain path needs to camp NM, that's also a pain to casual players. Not to mention 3M+ cost for fire path weapons, which is also a lot for casuals. Overall it's a pain in the ass to make.

Delve weapons you can just buy KI from others or join /shout, and do 5 fracture runs to get it.

I think most MoT weapons are great for macro pieces. I play blue mage often and Sometimes you can macro them in after a weapon skill, for your spell to skill chan. Beyond that, today I saw someone trying to sell a Kclub for 140m. Now the multi hit weapons should be upgraded to 5-8 hits. Lower base dmg. If this was done, it would end high prices on items like Kclub, allow skill ups easy and character customization.

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Originally Posted by Afania

Delve weapons you can just buy KI from others or join /shout, and do 5 fracture runs to get it.

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Im sry, but that excuse is pretty lame. Why not just be honest and tell ppl that u screwed. The chance in the ppl willing to shout for non R/E/M/D ppl to get in for gil is slim right now. They not gonna do it while it's still the main thing going. Once SE release another content like Delve and surpass that then they'll do it, but I doubt it.

I really hope they bring back magian trials as it meant that I could always log on and have something I could just go do. I didn't have to wait for a group, if I wanted to log on for an hour I could go and work towards finishing a trial. Or if I was waiting around for an event to start up I could do the same thing.