Turialon's Complain about the unsocial EMPY upgrades

Plate prices are still hovering around 100k on Asura but the VW /sh are getting fewer and fewer. Then when you do hear a /sh for vw its nearly always qilin. Every once and awhile you see a pil or a kaggan or a /sh for a random non-plate dropping mob.

I think its mainly do to the sheer amount of time it takes to put one together, travel, get the kills done and come back. Its very easy for a vw pt to last at least 3+hrs from /sh 1 to last mob and its usually just not worth it. What is funny is a person will stay in a pt for 2 hrs while its put together but if the boss takes the party more than 5 minutes to kill ppl will force dc or drop/warp. Then you have to rep jobs and juggle ppls existing jobs and it just takes more and more time. Conflicts break out because someone wants to be a leet smarta** and totally dog on someone who makes a simple mistake which causes more ppl to drop and more jobs needing to be repped and it goes on and on. Some ppl are getting so bad in their elite attitudes in vw pts that you will see multiple ppl dropping if they join.

VW on Asura can be an ordeal most the time causing it to get less and less popular.

But overall the past couple weeks you can go a long time without anyone putting together a vw pt.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Not on your server then. On Phoenix I have seen less VW shouts daily, plates going up to 110k rather than the old 100k, and because of that I see less. At any rate plates will fall out of the market if the Expansion is good enough, if its not then we will have a problem on our hands bigger than the plates.

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Well look at it this way. Plate price is going up. Idk anyone that would buy for over 110k. We had plates up to 130 on siren and then no one was buying. Your plate price will drop down soon due to people not being able to sell.

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Originally Posted by Mostfowl

Plate prices are still hovering around 100k on Asura but the VW /sh are getting fewer and fewer. Then when you do hear a /sh for vw its nearly always qilin. Every once and awhile you see a pil or a kaggan or a /sh for a random non-plate dropping mob.

I think its mainly do to the sheer amount of time it takes to put one together, travel, get the kills done and come back. Its very easy for a vw pt to last at least 3+hrs from /sh 1 to last mob and its usually just not worth it. What is funny is a person will stay in a pt for 2 hrs while its put together but if the boss takes the party more than 5 minutes to kill ppl will force dc or drop/warp. Then you have to rep jobs and juggle ppls existing jobs and it just takes more and more time. Conflicts break out because someone wants to be a leet smarta** and totally dog on someone who makes a simple mistake which causes more ppl to drop and more jobs needing to be repped and it goes on and on. Some ppl are getting so bad in their elite attitudes in vw pts that you will see multiple ppl dropping if they join.

VW on Asura can be an ordeal most the time causing it to get less and less popular.

But overall the past couple weeks you can go a long time without anyone putting together a vw pt.

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On siren, we just get rid of the noobs. That's what I do.

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Originally Posted by Fupafighter

On siren, we just get rid of the noobs. That's what I do.

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Everyone makes simple mistakes now and then that dont really make that big of a difference in the battle but some ppl just cant let it go and keep going on and on and on about it. Causing ppl to get sick of listening to some jerk trolling and drop. Or some just drop cause they get bored. Regardless vw is taking forever and a day. None of my ls even bothers to start pts anymore and neither do I. Theres just too much crap to deal with.

Example. In the past 6 hrs ive been online. Only 1 vw pt /sh and it took well over an hr to get to 15/18 and im not sure if they filled, gave up or just went with 15 cause the /sh suddenly stopped.

There has been more dyna /sh lately than vw

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Originally Posted by Fupafighter

On siren, we just get rid of the noobs. That's what I do.

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you have to lead shouts to kick people out.

and i guess that's just you, but we usually /tell them and walk them through what they need to do; that's the productive way to get things done.

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Originally Posted by Plasticleg

you have to lead shouts to kick people out.

and i guess that's just you, but we usually /tell them and walk them through what they need to do; that's the productive way to get things done.

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I stopped leading shouts because there is this site called wiki.bluegartr.com and ffxiah.com that typically help you with all that you need to do. On ffxi, expecting a person to sit and explain how to do a fight is just counterproductive when you are trying to form a group. I don't kick people that don't understand the game, I just simply say I'm not interested. And for kicking people out, generally give them 3 strikes your out. If they can't get to the damn VW rift after 15 minutes constantly, they shouldn't be there. If they can't proc when you call a proc, they shouldn't be there. If there damage per ws is below 1k, they shouldn't be there. If they die constantly because of fanatics, they shouldn't be there. Can't call the person actually trying to win the bad guy lol. If some guy comes to your group in perle and doesn't know what his procs are, he should be doing other events first.

V.w. is fun, when it goes well, sucks when it doesn't, plates.... Lol it aint 60k Alex's and those were to be for "casual types". Lololol, and s.e. "muhahahahahahahahhah"

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Generally, yes.



AKA, an extremely stupid and pointless design decision that angers and frustrates a large portion of the player base in order to appease an extremely tiny minority who's subscription fees amount to a drop in the proverbial bucket. What a sad use of limited resources and manpower.

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stuff like this is designed to where it's supposed to be somewhat "unreasonable" to get to keep you playing. if you don't have anything left to work for in the game, what would you do? probably quit playing.

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Originally Posted by Dohati

stuff like this is designed to where it's supposed to be somewhat "unreasonable" to get to keep you playing. if you don't have anything left to work for in the game, what would you do? probably quit playing.

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If I see something as unattainable, or a waste of time, I don't bother with it anyways. Once it goes into the realm of stupidly annoying or time taking to get, it becomes to much of a waste to bother with anyways, and instead drives me to quit sooner because its another piece of content I will not do, rather than if it were more reasonable and I would actually do it.

It seems there aren't a lot of people on my server taking empy's past 90. Hell, I'm surprised to even see them at 90 here. The price has been dropping some recently because there's just too many on the market. It's not worth it to a lot of people, myself included. You can buy an entire relic weapon (75 version) for the cost of the HMP stage and still have money to spare for a couple umbral marrows. I would be all over it if the number was more like 500-750. I personally won't bother buying HMPs until I have absolutely nothing else left to do in this game, and at that point I'd probably be ready to quit anyway. I've been saving whatever I get from VW and am currently at 71 plates without buying any, nor exclusively farming NMs that drop them.

My interpretation on the scenario:

Pre-Abyssea, you could sponsor for Dynamis or pay/farm for Alex (90m Mythic nostalgia etc). No doubt about it, these weapons were made for the players who strive to be the best and were willing to put a mass of effort in for it.

Lv.80 arrives, Visions comes out. Emps come out, they're a pain to get (talking about the 80 version). People didn't have atma, so many of the mobs were difficult, people didn't know about the proc pattern. Emps were more or less on par with Relic/Mythics, aside the fact that at this point they were still free.
Lv.85. Second Atma comes, out, Razed Ruins comes out, people discover proc patterns. Emps are actually getting made, though it's slow. Now they become less on par with Relic/Mythics, and edge towards that casual side.
Lv.90. Reraise whenever you want (if you set it). Mob too hard? Brew it? Third atma, Abyssea doees for the most part become easy mode. Emp's are now a whole different ballpark to obtain in comparison to Relics/Mythics in the way that anyone can make one, all it takes is the effort. Mythics become borderline impossible due to lack of interest in Salvage and the non soloability of the event.
Lv.95: Plates. Now you need gil.

Long winded but the point is, personally I don't think making an Emp should have been this easy in the first place. Back when Glavoid was difficult, Bri required the better part of an alliance to make it was a genuine challenge, but Abyssea became unbalanced.
Now SE decide to "balance" it by making the 95+ stage more or less demand gil. Sounds like a severe lack of planning to me. The harder part should have come first, which it did. It just got made easy, so SE now "balance" that by effectively making Dynamis soloable.

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Originally Posted by Dohati

stuff like this is designed to where it's supposed to be somewhat "unreasonable" to get to keep you playing. if you don't have anything left to work for in the game, what would you do? probably quit playing.

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That's why it's better for them to produce a larger number of short-term goals rather than, or in addition to, a few long-term ones. Instead of giving me one carrot to chase that's held out too far for me to ever reach, give me a trail of carrots to follow where each one can be reached reasonably but there is always another to go for.

Of course since the devs are the ultimate "lazy casuals," they won't like that idea too much no matter how much more enjoyable it makes the game for the majority of paying customers.

Firstly I think simple adjustments such as adding heavy metal pouches and singles to other higher tier vw mobs would help a lot, and giving singles a "can drop 1~3 singles" style, not just one always. Those simple fixes would ultimay help imho. However all of this talk about how low the rates are I'm not understanding, personally when I do qilin out of every 6 I'm getting one pouch most every time, and as far as t3 go it's almost always a single metal if no body. And making Gil for them isn't even an issue, cruor from farming the metals themselves on vw, pulse cells, on top of every other Gil maker mentioned in this thread I won't elaborate on. As for trouble getting groups together ect, well that's player fault, ppl need to grow up and stop trolling ppl on easy mode mmorpg, and also it's the fault of drop rates, that's SEs issue they need to fix, that they prolly never will. So in a sense 1500 isn't unobtainable by any means granted groups are running, however the frequency of metal needs to he touched, our options are too few for the decline in interest of vw for it's crap drop rates and 18 man reqs for procs, why not let cities t4 drop them too? They are low mannable, and consume jus as much time to farm. SE did say empys are the casual players ultimate weapon and it is, anyone in this game can make easy, camp some nm, get your friends or shout and spam, common day ppl can get all the empy items within a week or less to take one weapon from 80 to 90. Most every item set to get the weapon to 80 takes a day to two maximum, and Thats just a couple hrs a day. Same holds true for taking weapons from 80-85, then one KI mobs for 85-90. That's why you have a 1500 req. Because a 90 empy is damn fine weapon even at 99. It's easy and takes literally no time compared to relics and mythics. SE also did state trials post 90 were based on the difficulty of obtaining the actual item. Complaining about ppl who have 95 empy+ talking about how they have no life or such, too much gil ect, makes the ppl complaining about it look just as bad as the people they slander for already finishing, simply put because you want it too, well get to it, they did. If there's no vw shouts make one, if you can't be bothered, leave the weapon at 90, it isn't gimp. Or just jump on the relic train, most are better anyway and completely soloable.

This whole thread is a troll, right?

Right?

One thing I will agree with is that the 1500-plate investment, considering the reward (A few points of base damage and +2 stat), is pretty laughable. But I really don't think the investment of 1500 plates itself is unreasonable if they consider relics, mythics, and empyreans to be approximately the same level of difficulty (Insert some comment about mythics being totally balanced here). While I wouldn't say I'm a super-casual player or anything, I only have 2 empyrean weapons myself, with one being only at 85, and no relics or mythics, which is less than any "insane-no-life-poopsocking-filthy-stinkin-player-that-can-get-stuff-I-can't-I'm-totally-not-jealous" has.

It costs about 150M to finish the plate trial (180M if you decide to buy plates at 120k each- more on that later). Frankly, that's not much more expensive than getting a relic to even the first usable stage. Compare to one of the easier Relics to currently obtain, Apoc, which is about 120M. The fact that Empyreans can be usable without any gil investment (barring obvious things like mercing) at all already makes them a lot more reasonable than Relics or Mythics.

So, we've established that the gil investment isn't that much more unreasonable than relics, at the very least. So now we talk about the actually supply of plates.

Well, I recently finished collecting my 1500 plates, and I'm really wondering if we've all been browsing the same bazaars, because I have on numerous occasions seen many, many plates selling for 110k, 120k, or even higher in bazaars, that I decided to pass on because I'm not made of gil. If you are willing to put down the gil you could probably get all 1500 plates easily just spending maybe a week or two browsing bazaars in upper jeuno for about 20 minutes a day, so this whole "there's not enough in the supply of plates!" is pure fantasy from people who are simply unwilling to pay above a certain price for something...so if that's the case, that's more of a problem with you and not with the actual amount required. Besides, supply/demand, etc, etc. If they made plates easier by either raising the drop rate or lowering the required amount, it'll just mean more people will do 95/99 and the price wouldn't really change much, a lot like what happened with ancient currency. The times in the game's history when the price on something crashed significantly is when there was basically a complete redesign to how the item was obtained, such as TK.

I will submit that it's possible this will change in the future when VW stops being done, but of course, that's completely speculation- they can simply change the game when that does happen, if it ever does.

All that being said, I wouldn't really complain if they lowered the requirement, just makes it easier/possible for me to finish any new weapons I end up making. I just don't understand the people that bellyache it's impossible or unreasonable when it's probably still the most attainable of any of the ultimate weapons. With the marrow cost of relics factored in it is still cheaper to get a 99 empyrean than any other weapon.

By the way, if they adjust only plates and not the rift-items, prepare your anuses for Riftdross/Riftcinder being even more expensive than they are right now, then we'll get to complain about that instead.

I do dynamis 5 days a week as my only source of gil. Dynamis is 2-hours long. I have two empyreans 95+ (armageddon is 99 and almace 95), an annihilator 99 (buying the marrows), as well as an aegis 95, and other free empyreans. All it takes is 2-hours a day . . . If you're complaining about that then maybe you shouldn't be playing a MMO in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Helel

If you're complaining about that then maybe you shouldn't be playing a MMO in the first place.

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Or play one with less pointless nonsense.

1500 plates and 60 of the item after make it equivilant to a relic 99 so it is totaly fair

Obviously lots of people don't find it pointless because lots of people are able to finish it, and bother doing so. It's clear you're only complaining because you can't/don't want to finish it.

Besides, the upgrade from 90 to 95/99 Empyrean is a nice chunk of Damage, but hardly required for most of the Empyreans to be useful anyway, so it's not like you got bamboozled into starting a weapon that's now useless. You're just making it hard on yourself by setting goals you can't finish but plenty of other people are able to.

I want a lv99 Almace, simply for the fact I want lv99 of all the weapons my RDM can use. Also I like Almace, and I plan to use it still. The problem is the same here as I have with making a Mythic weapon. How can I justify to myself spending so much money for 5 levels on a weapon I already have, instead of just making a Relic for another of my jobs so that it is better too? To put it another way, look at what jobs I play. I play RDM & DRK as my main jobs I play. My RDM currently has Excalibur & Almace, my DRK has a Hoarfrost & Wroth Scythe. I would like to 99 my Almace but I end up looking at my jobs and I cant help but think that instead I should get a Rag or Apoc, I also cant help but feel that I should spend money to buff another job, rather than just buff up my already good jobs.

Its not that I don't want to make a lv99 Almace, I really do, but I just cant reasonably do it for this cost. If they made them drop in normal slots as well as where good items drop, might be a different story, I might get to farm them myself rather than buy them, in which case I have less of a problem, but right now to farm them I would probably have to spam Qilin all day every day for a week or 2 it seems, then I might have gotten lucky enough to get my plates.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Or play one with less pointless nonsense.

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Correct, you can leave anytime you want.

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Originally Posted by Winrie

However all of this talk about how low the rates are I'm not understanding, personally when I do qilin out of every 6 I'm getting one pouch most every time, and as far as t3 go it's almost always a single metal if no body.

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Even with 3x rubicund cells and maxed red every fight, I'm not seeing a pouch once every 6 fights or a plate almost every fight. Your numbers are abnormally high in my experience. I don't doubt you're getting them, I just don't think your experience matches everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

Obviously lots of people don't find it pointless because lots of people are able to finish it, and bother doing so. It's clear you're only complaining because you can't/don't want to finish it.

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How many people is "lots?"

Out of my last 18 Qilin, I have gotten 1 pouch. I am doing more today, Ill see how many I get since I will be spamming it all day, so you can see my rate at getting them, also I have all KIs/use Rubis which not everyone will have anyways, so numbers should be good I would think.

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However all of this talk about how low the rates are I'm not understanding, personally when I do qilin out of every 6 I'm getting one pouch most every time, and as far as t3 go it's almost always a single metal if no body.

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i did dozens of quilin, and probably more than a hundred jeuno T3 (not always but often using cells)...
...yet, i never got any hmp or pouch...

aside from that lack of luck, i agree the hmp trial shouldn't be that hard. now relics are clearly easyer to get to 99 than empyreans, and while mytics are still hard(as it require nyzul/assault/eineinjar/salvage/etc), the alexandrite are somewhat easy to farm(get 2 ppl, do salvage and you'll get some) ans neo salvage will probably help too.

this trial make you have a weapon lv.90 that can be somewhat worse than one lv.99 you can buy from ah

so either lower the trial(unlikely) or increase the drops of hmp
-why do jeuno t4/5 don't drop hmp while t3/6 do ?
-why tav/aht urgan t2 and jeuno t6 don't drop pouchs instead of single ?
-why all my hmp are logs or rocks ?

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Out of my last 18 Qilin, I have gotten 1 pouch. I am doing more today, Ill see how many I get since I will be spamming it all day, so you can see my rate at getting them, also I have all KIs/use Rubis which not everyone will have anyways, so numbers should be good I would think.

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I didn't see a single pouch in roughly 56 Qilin runs (all maxed up).
I started wondering if drop rates were reduced since a few months ago (before Provenance was added)

Then in the last 18 runs I got two pouches.
Yai!!

Still no Coruscanti, but I'm only 0/250ish atm, I know some people 0/700 so no right to complain, do I?

It's not uncommon to see at least one single plate on a T3 run, but getting a pouch every 6 Qilin runs would be pretty lucky.

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How many people is "lots?"

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Hundreds...Just take a look at the census, it's right there for you to see if you are so inclined. There's at least 200 99 Ukons floating around. Sure, you could argue that there's way more 99 relics floating around, but that's also because about half the work for relics goes into the first finished form, with about the other half being the marrows, so there was already a lot of finished relics ready to be upgraded when the 95/99 trials were introduced.

And if you compare that to mythics...there's like, 70 99 Burtgangs. Actually there's only about 400 99 Mythics total.

So the point to be made here is that there isn't much of a difference between the relic and empyrean difficulty in reaching 99. If your argument is that Empyreans should be easy to get to 99...well, I hate to break it to you, but it's clear that from the absurd amount of plates they required that they intended it to be difficult/annoying/"pointless" to get a empyrean past level 90.

The only two reasons I can see to be angry that you can't finish a 90 Empyrean is that you are OCD about having it "half-done", so to speak, or you think the weapon has fallen behind other, easier-to-obtain options because of the block HMP has caused. Well the latter is pretty much false (Barring maybe Caladbolg), and the former...well, if you're so determined to finish the weapon, it's obvious you should weigh your options and decide whether or not its worth your time. And if you don't think so...that was kind of the point.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Stuff

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So basically you're saying you weighed the opportunity cost and decided to gear your DRK instead of completing your RDM? That's great, that's precisely what I did- except I chose the other option. How is this a problem with the trial itself?

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Originally Posted by Kincard

So basically you're saying you weighed the opportunity cost and decided to gear your DRK instead of completing your RDM? That's great, that's precisely what I did- except I chose the other option. How is this a problem with the trial itself?

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There isn't alot of incentive to make 1 job a little better by adding a few levels to a single weapon, instead of making an entirely new weapon instead and getting it to the exact same level, while taking less overall money & work. To make an Emp to 90 takes probably about 5 times longer than the trials for a Relic after you obtain it at 75. The money to make an Emp go that extra mile to 95 is a big 150+Mil, while to obtain a Base Relic is 120~130Mil. So Relics are easier to get to 95 by default, and cheaper, there is almost no incentive to make an Emp 95~99 because of that cost. A WAR could make Ukon 95, or they could just make a Rag 95, and get that for MS & Reso, DRKs could get themselves a lv95 Calad, or instead, make Apoc so they have a good Scythe, or better yet, Rag. SAM could make Masa95, or instead a Relic GK or Bow. I made Excalibur, rather than Almace95, the list goes on.

Making an Emp95 is not a bad idea, but its not something I see as a good idea either. Its not only a choice between 1 job or another, but in weapons as I said with a DRK, between a Calad95 or a Rag95, with Apoc as well, and a SAM with the same questions. In my opinion, Emps should not be the same as Relics, they messed that up already. Emps start easy, and once they get to 90, they hit a wall, thats when most start on a Relic, and use the Emps as hold overs.

Ill repeat the question;
Just because YOU chose to spread the love between your jobs and weapon types, why is this a problem with the Trials?
So you are telling me its more effort to fully complete a job than it is to go half way? SHOCKING!

Ok, the reason its a problem is because it often leads to Emps becoming a stepping stone, leaving the later trials meaningless and untouched. Looking at Emps only 3 are worth taking to 99, Vere, Ukon, and Gandiva. Other than them, there is almost no reason to take an Emp to 99 because the Relics are simply better thanks to Merit WSs. So to answer the question, what is the problem with the trials? Its that in most cases, it is not worth the effort to do the trials, because an easier weapon can be made which is more beneficial to you anyways.

Edit:Sorry, Arma is worth it as well I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

Hundreds...Just take a look at the census, it's right there for you to see if you are so inclined. There's at least 200 99 Ukons floating around.

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That's not lots, IMO.

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Sure, you could argue that there's way more 99 relics floating around, but that's also because about half the work for relics goes into the first finished form, with about the other half being the marrows, so there was already a lot of finished relics ready to be upgraded when the 95/99 trials were introduced.

And if you compare that to mythics...there's like, 70 99 Burtgangs. Actually there's only about 400 99 Mythics total.

So the point to be made here is that there isn't much of a difference between the relic and empyrean difficulty in reaching 99.

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They're totally different processes. They don't need to be balanced against or compared to each other.

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If your argument is that Empyreans should be easy to get to 99...well, I hate to break it to you, but it's clear that from the absurd amount of plates they required that they intended it to be difficult/annoying/"pointless" to get a empyrean past level 90.

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I know what they intended. I'm saying the intentions themselves are wrong. Just because it's "working as intended" according to SE, doesn't make it right. The devs can be just as wrong as anyone, and they often are.

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The only two reasons I can see to be angry that you can't finish a 90 Empyrean is that you are OCD about having it "half-done", so to speak, or you think the weapon has fallen behind other, easier-to-obtain options because of the block HMP has caused.

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Thanks for the OCD diagnosis Doctor. Would you like to prescribe some medicine or treatment while you're at it? Also, thanks for letting me know that I'm angry. I honestly wasn't aware I was, but obviously Doctor knows best.

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Well the latter is pretty much false (Barring maybe Caladbolg), and the former...well, if you're so determined to finish the weapon, it's obvious you should weigh your options and decide whether or not its worth your time. And if you don't think so...that was kind of the point.

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And I think "the point" is wrong. Going from 75 whatevers to 1500 plates is just bait and switch absurdity. You even used the word absurd yourself. The only purpose it serves is to make a handful of people feel like they've done something special. I don't see that as a worthwhile purpose.

Lol, "worthwhile" friends, family, job. Ok then carry on.

Edit: I'm not mocking the "us"s that are , but am the idea of the meger improvement, vs cost. In other words, f me its a lot, but we are what we are, and are going to try. Gs empy to 99 or bust. (Yeah ls thinks I'm nuttz too) reread that amd didnt mean it how it came across.

While it's perfectly understandable that SE is trying to make so the level 99 version of Relic/Mythic/Empy have more or less the same level of difficulty to obtain, considering the whole process (we're almost there with Relic/Empy, hopefully Mythic will join the club soon as well) I think most people are feeling butthurt.
Not blaming SE, from a game-design point of view this is one of those choices that will make a certain part of the player-base very unhappy but, in the long run, will probably be for the best for all of us.

At the same time though, it's easy to empathize with players who feel disappointed, and it's easy to point the finger against SE if not for the action they decided to undertake, for the TIMING they chose to do it. I.e. way later than they should have.
But we older players all know how notoriously SLOW they have always been in reacting to any possible thing than in another MMO would have been dealt with with the utmost priority.


I mean, first they give you a powerful weapon (Empies were unrightfully and mostly insanely more powerful than the, back then, still hard to obtain Relics/Mythics) that's very very easy to obtain, luring a lot of players with the stick & carrot of "come on! Keep playing! We have this awesome new toy for you!".
At the same time this was an incredibly out-of-taste way of trolling the players who had already obtained a Relic/Mythic back then (which were a large minority compared to the total number of players).
So yeah, this part of the whole picture is pretty despicable because I can understand how players got "lured" into Empies and then got fucked up with the 90>95 trial, all of a sudden.


You can understand why it *HAD* to happen, and you can agree it's likely the best choice SE could make (alas too late) but at the same time you can still feel the pain behind and you feel almost "tricked".

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Ok, the reason its a problem is because it often leads to Emps becoming a stepping stone, leaving the later trials meaningless and untouched. Looking at Emps only 3 are worth taking to 99, Vere, Ukon, and Gandiva. Other than them, there is almost no reason to take an Emp to 99 because the Relics are simply better thanks to Merit WSs. So to answer the question, what is the problem with the trials? Its that in most cases, it is not worth the effort to do the trials, because an easier weapon can be made which is more beneficial to you anyways.

Edit:Sorry, Arma is worth it as well I suppose.

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Twash? Masamune? Armageddon? Daurdaubla? Almace? Do you know your weapons lol? Masa > amano. Arma is cor only good weapon besides mythic. Brds should have daurdaubla. And who wouldn't do it if they had the gil and nothing else to spend it on to get that 4th song. Oh also dnc gets twashtar as it's only easily obtainable 99 shiney too. Also did you forget that empy users can use merit weaponskills too, most times better than relic users? 20 attribute on a weapon is alot for a mod. And any serious ranger will tell you that gandiva is not that great compared to annihalator. Thus gandiva isn't worth taking to 99 unless you enjoy shooting lightning bolts. Learn the jobs and stop complaining things aren't worth it. Plates aren't hard. You all should just stop buying cells if your goal is plates. Convert the cruor you get from kills to gil and buy plates with that spare gil. YOu can average around 2-3 plates a run of 6 easily with just buying stones. I never use cells unless I'm after a glowy weapon. All cells do imo is allow higher qualities items to drop (lux fajin), which most of you don't want anymore. I feel like I have good drop rates on pouches w.o cells. I'll start recording more, but I had one run where I got 2 w.o cells. Then next run got one. Then next I got 2 again. It's really not about the cells when it comes to plates from what I have seen the past few months. Getting alot less freakin gorgets and fajin boots too.

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Twash?

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I don't see any Emp for a non-Heavy DD job as worth it to get to 95+ because chances are you will not be using it enough for something you would actually need a lv99 Emp for. DNC isn't brought as a DD for VW, Legion, or NNI, as such, not really a job I would count as worthwhile to obtain a lv99 Emp for. However if you just like DNC, sure, its good I suppose.

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Masamune?

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So far as I understand, the 2.5x damage on normal attacks, along with not having to gimp your WS damage to gain that effect, put Amano ahead, not to mention the fact that you get the accuracy, which I am often told that accuracy becomes a problem in higher level VW, and I would guess Legion as well, even though I have never had these problems myself.

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Armageddon?

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I included this afterwords, because I originally forgot about it. But I agree, its good, thats why I went back and edited it.

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Daurdaubla?

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I admit, I forgot this as well, and actually this is imo probably the only Emp I would take to 99, and possibly Ochain as well(seeing as it gives nearly unlimited MP with a good PLD)

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Almace?

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The only time I can think of, you would need a lv99 Emp but have a BLU, PLD, or RDM, is NNI, and thats only a BLU. So the idea of making a lv99 Emp for a single event for a single job, seems rather pointless. Outside of that I see not much reason for one of these jobs to have a lv99 Emp sword, especially when between the jobs, the best suited for Almace is BLU, where as RDM & PLD can make good use of Excalibur instead.

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Also did you forget that empy users can use merit weaponskills too, most times better than relic users? 20 attribute on a weapon is alot for a mod.

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Take a look at this list...

Shijin is DEX - Vere is STR
Exent is AGI - Twash is DEX
Req is MND - Almace is DEX
Reso is STR - Calad is VIT
Ruin is STR - Farsha is STR/CHR, with weaker mods
Upheav is VIT - Ukon is STR
Entropy is INT - Redem is STR/MND
Stardiver is STR - Rhongo is VIT
Shun is DEX - Kannagi is AGI
Shoha is STR - Masa is STR, these actually match up well
Realm is MND - Gamba is... HP/MP?
Shatter is INT - Hver is... MP?
Apex is AGI - Gandiva is DEX
Last Stand is AGI - Arma is AGI, these match up

Let me ask you, do YOU know your weapons? Last I checked, 3 of these Emps have mods the same as the Merit WSs, making them the only 3 out of 14 to be even possibly better for the merit WS. As I said before, so far as I understand, thats still not always the case.

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And any serious ranger will tell you that gandiva is not that great compared to annihalator. Thus gandiva isn't worth taking to 99 unless you enjoy shooting lightning bolts.

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If I knew any good RNG, I would ask them, and get some input. From what I have always seen, I see RNGs with Gandiva, and see them pumping out shit loads of damage, I can not recall seeing an Anni RNG in action, ever, so not alot of room for me to compare. With the numbers I have seen however, I thought it best to put it in the list of worthy upgrades.

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Learn the jobs and stop complaining things aren't worth it.

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Ill tell you what you told me in the past, I don't need to know the jobs to see the numbers. And not alot of Emps seem worth it, however I will change my list a bit seeing as you did make a few good points about some, and reminded me about the Harp.

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Plates aren't hard.

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This isn't a matter of difficulty, its a matter of... how shall I word it, a leap of stupidity. As I said before, Emps are easy till 90 and most of the time become a serious stepping stone into the realm of Relics, because they are (most of the time) good weapons at that point, but then people make a Relic instead, and leave the Emp behind. I have seen this many times, and have done it myself with Almace>Excalibur. In my opinion, the balance between a Relic and an Emp weapon was broken as soon as you could get level 90 easily. Trying to create a fix to that now, seems to have just increased the number of Relics, and reduced the number of Emps which will ever reach a high level, which moved Relics to the now dominate form of weapon in end game from what I have seen.

As for my revised list of Emps worth getting to 99...

Vere, Shijin is nothing next to VS in damage except for maybe on PUP thanks to its load of DEX gear, however they still seem to be fairly even outside of Abyssea, for MNK however, this weapon skill is just about as good as it gets.

Ukon, has possible one of the best WSs in the entire game, Upheav has no way of toping this in damage unless coupled with Mighty Strikes.

Masamune, given that accuracy isn't needed, the +20 STR from the weapon itself would be great for Shoha, and you shouldn't pass up the good Skillchain abilities that Fudo has, that is severely lacking with Shoha's terrible Fragmentation/Compression properties.

Arma, has a great Magic based WS, and shares the same mod as Last Stand, the best WSs for a COR, with this giving a big ol +20 AGI to help them both, it is worth the price for any COR who wants to put out big numbers, and not just the DDs they buff.

Daurdabla, the best buffing tool in the game, definitely worth getting to 99 thanks to the effects of yet another song from a single BRD, allowing 1 BRD to give a wide range of buffs, without taking extra spaces in the party.

Ochain, not only a great block rate, and mitigation of damage, but the shield at 99 gives so much MP back from the damage you take that a well geared PLD becomes nearly invincible with this, because a well geared PLD can recover almost 50% of the damage they take, back as MP, and then use that to cure them for much more than double the MP cost, providing a very worthy investment given the player has the ability to put it to use.


These are the Emps I see as worth while, Gandiva was removed because apparently the Relic is better, however, if it is infact as good, or better than the Relic, I would put it on the list as well.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

Not blaming SE, from a game-design point of view this is one of those choices that will make a certain part of the player-base very unhappy but, in the long run, will probably be for the best for all of us.

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I'm just not sure I see how this is the case. Could you explain what you mean by it being best for all of us? I'm not being a smart aleck here. I truly don't get it.

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Ok, the reason its a problem is because it often leads to Emps becoming a stepping stone, leaving the later trials meaningless and untouched. Looking at Emps only 3 are worth taking to 99, Vere, Ukon, and Gandiva. Other than them, there is almost no reason to take an Emp to 99 because the Relics are simply better thanks to Merit WSs. So to answer the question, what is the problem with the trials? Its that in most cases, it is not worth the effort to do the trials, because an easier weapon can be made which is more beneficial to you anyways.

Edit:Sorry, Arma is worth it as well I suppose.

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Most of the weapons actually get a pretty sizable boost going from 90 to 99 (As I mentioned earlier, people keep complaining about HMP without even bringing up Riftcinder and Riftdross...if they only adjust HMP the price on those two is going to skyrocket, as if they weren't expensive enough already, when that time comes are you going to complain about that too?), because they get enough base damage to get at least 1 weapon rank (A bunch of the two-handers get two weapon ranks, in fact). The weapons that arn't nearly as good/surpass corresponding relics are either mediocre or garbage to begin with (Farsha/Hver/Gamb/Redemp/Rhongo...well I guess for that last one Gungnir is pretty lol too), Daurdabla gets an extra song of course, though there's no known reason to take Ochain past 90 aside from just liking Paladin that much.

I understand what you're saying though, there's an unbalance between the difficulty/reward of obtaining 80/85/90 and 95/99, with the 95/99 stages costing a lot for comparatively small upgrades. Of course, that's also a good thing- because that means your level 90 weapons (Again, like I said, barring Caladbolg) that were good to begin with...are still good, because you don't have to do the 95/99 trials to make the weapon useful. Insane investment/reward ratios arn't exactly new to this game. I'd understand the complaint more if your level 90 weapon now gathers dust because of the HMP cockblock, but that just doesn't happen with most of them.

So, if your argument is one of practicality, well...just continue getting better weapons if you feel other things are more worth your time. I decided to upgrade a Kannagi to 99 despite you thinking it's one of the weapons that doesn't benefit much from it (It actually does), and I passed on using that time to upgrade one of my numerous other jobs instead, or getting a Kikoku to 95/99, or hell, just building up another Empyrean that gets way more out of the plates and dross I used, like an Ukon, simply because I like Ninja and I like the Kannagi over the other NIN weapons.

The only way to fix the "balance" of the difficulty of each Empyrean trials without changing the overall difficulty would be to slot the HMP trial into the 80->85 stage and shift all the other trials over one spot, or to spread the 1500 plates over the 4 or 5 trials...I seriously doubt any of you want either one to happen. As it stands, relatively casual players (I know lots of actual casual players that don't have any Empyreans at all, actually) can get their weapons to the 90 stage with no gil investment whatsoever, and that's already a really good weapon for casuals to obtain.

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They're totally different processes. They don't need to be balanced against or compared to each other.

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So what you're saying is you want them to nerf Empyrean weapons while making them easier to finish, because that's essentially what you're saying here. A huge complaint leveled at Empyreans when they first came out was that they were much less investment for stomping all over relics/mythics that took way more time by comparison. I have no doubt the voidwatch trials were created with this in mind.

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I know what they intended. I'm saying the intentions themselves are wrong. Just because it's "working as intended" according to SE, doesn't make it right. The devs can be just as wrong as anyone, and they often are.

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Except you still haven't made any actual arguments as to why it's "wrong" aside from "I can't finish it, therefore it must be unreasonable". Any actually compelling-sounding arguments made have been essentially debunked.

It's already been stated by people, you included, that the investment of price/time investment isn't an issue. Well, sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't, I guess it depends on whatever is convenient for you at any given moment.

It's been debunked that there is a lack of supply of plates (at least at this point in time), because any perusal of bazaars in Jeuno will yield literally hundreds of (albeit potentially overpriced, though that's a problem with players themselves) plates at almost any time of day. It just depends on if you're willing to put the gil down.

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Thanks for the OCD diagnosis Doctor. Would you like to prescribe some medicine or treatment while you're at it? Also, thanks for letting me know that I'm angry. I honestly wasn't aware I was, but obviously Doctor knows best.

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I wasn't being literal, but I guess I overestimated you.

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The only purpose it serves is to make a handful of people feel like they've done something special.

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You mean like everything else in this game? All I'm hearing is still "I can't finish it, it's unfair that other people can and I can't".

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You can understand why it *HAD* to happen, and you can agree it's likely the best choice SE could make (alas too late) but at the same time you can still feel the pain behind and you feel almost "tricked".

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Yes, except as has been said numerous times, the level 90 weapons are still incredibly powerful weapons unless it was one of the crappy ones to being with (Gamba/Hver/etc), so while it might be a bit annoying you can't "finish", it's not like you have a useless weapon now because you can't.

If it bothers you that much, then start saving up and finish it- that's what I did, and I'm pretty sure I have less total relic/empyrean weapons than pretty much every person in this thread, so this whole "only poopsocking losers can finish!" mentality is more born from laziness rather than it actually being true. It's great to mischaracterize the people that did finish when it serves your purposes though, I guess!

So let me recap basically how this discussion has gone:
"HMP/Rift trials are impossible to complete except for poopsocking 1% losers!"
"Well, no not really, I'm not really a hardcore player and I could finish it"
"Uh, well, there's a lack of plates!"
"Not really, there's lots to be found in Jeuno, some of it is price gouged because people know they can get away with it though."
"It's impossible to complete for me because I'm not a 1% poopsocking loser!"

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Originally Posted by Kincard

I'd understand the complaint more if your level 90 weapon now gathers dust because of the HMP cockblock, but that just doesn't happen with most of them.

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See I disagree here. When looking at Emps vs Relics. If you make a Calad, you will likely upgrade to a Rag, Rag is really better in every way to a Calad even with both at 99, there is next to no reason to actually make Calad go past lv90. For Redem, if you make it, its another weapon that will likely get upto 90 at most, before you do Apoc, which far surpasses it.

I rather look at it the other way around, it happens to most of them, but a few Emps do shine above everything else. As my list above says, Vere, Ukon, Masa, Arma, Harp, and Shield, are the only 6 out of them all that I would see as worth while. This is because they are really the only ones that have the stats or WS to make them better than a Relic for their jobs, while the other 10 are not really worth putting higher than 90, because a Relic will surpass it.

The jobs this doesn't count for exactly, are BLU, COR, PUP, DNC, & SCH, however COR & PUP are covered by the worthwhile Emps, leaving BLU, DNC, and SCH. Now BLU doesn't really have much use as a Front Line Job in endgame currently, so making a lv99 Emp for the job isn't really a worthwhile thing either, the same can be said for DNC. SCH(& BLM) lets be honest, thanks to Shattersoul and Plenitas Virga, nothing short of Mythic should really be used instead of this by a mage who plans to hit things with their stick.

I already listed Caladbolg as pretty much the only exception, aside from that, all the Empyreans that were good at 85/90 caps continue to be very good weapons at 99. I find it hilarious that you would bring up Redemption, because everyone already knew it was pretty disappointing compared to not just Apoc, but a bunch of other Magian Scythes as well as Twilight at 90- that's a problem with the Scythe specifically (Specifically, Quietus being a mediocre WS) and not the fact that you can't finish the HMP/Rift trial. It has just preserved its position as poorly balanced weapon, joining the ranks of Claustrum, Nagi, Murgleis and other such weapons in the SE vault of bad ideas.

11 of the 16 Empyrean weapons were seen as among the best options before the 95/99 trials came along, the five out being Rhongomiant, Redemption, Hvergelmir, Gambateinn and (arguably) Farsha. Right now, at the 99 cap, almost all 11 of those good Empyrean weapons that are still worth using in their 90 form except possibly Gandiva and Caladbolg, though the list of things that outdo them is still pretty thin.

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the other 10 are not really worth putting higher than 90, because a Relic will surpass it

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And of those, this was already true for a lot of them even back when the useful form of the Empyreans weapons were first introduced at 85 (Axe/Polearm/Scythe/Staff/Mace). For the ones that are useful, this is either untrue, or doesn't outdo them nearly as much as you seem to be implying.

The Mandau does outdo the Twash, but not by as much as you might think, without mentioning the fact that Twash is often the best offhand to Mandau anyway, so you'd 99 them both if you were some obsessive THF-maximizer. And why is it that the "usefulness" of a job in endgame (See your argument against Almace/Twash somehow not being worthwhile because BLU and DNC don't see a lot of melee action endgame, which...a decent Almace BLU in Voidwatch can still get their melee hits in even while having a full set of proc spells, varies with group though I suppose) only comes up when it's against making an Empyrean? I don't remember the last time I saw a THF with Mandau was taken over a WAR with an Ukon.

Almace most definitely outdoes Excalibur in most situations.

Kannagi and Kikoku have parsed very, very closely and it's pretty much the same "shit's situational, bro" stuff that has existed for years in ths game.

Gandiva sees very little use outside of Abyssea, but Yoichi sees very little use...anywhere. Compared to Annihilator anyway, unless you like firing bows on your SAM these days.

As far any mage/staff/mace relic/mythic/empyrean goes, pretty much the only ones that have ever been useful are Mjollnir (Best WHM melee club for those that like doing that, so it's not like Gambateinn somehow got screwed when everyone already knew it was a crappy weapon to start with) and a few of the Mythic mage weapons, which doesn't really factor into your whole relic VS empyrean discussion (Let's also not start a serious discussion about Hvergelmir VS Claustrum VS Plenitas Virga for melee BLMs and SCHs otherwise we might get aneurysms).

I don't see how any empyrean wouldn't benefit from upgrading to 99. If you're saying "worth the cost?" Then none of them are. You'd pretty much have to have nothing else in the entire game you'd want to spend gil on left, including every HQ of the new abjuration gear for jobs you don't even have, before it would worth the price tag. But that's just my opinion. Some people just gotta have 99 right now, and that's fine. If not for them, no one would be able to sell plates at all.

I'm not saying that the 95 trial should be without cost or effort or whatever, but the current cost is too high to be worth it to me, and many others. This is entirely because of the rarity of HMPs from the few VW fights they can drop from. Sure some people get pouches every 5 or 6 fight run of Qilin, but I've personally gone 18 in a row without a single pouch. Crap is random. There's also the random factor to how many plates you even get in a pouch. The 99 trial suffers from the same issue as the 95 but it's a non-issue if you can't do the 95 trial, and I'd suspect people would actually do rex/ig alima/morta/bismarck if they had 95 empyreans.

To take a page from Spankwustler, I'm going paint a picture. Imagine you're on a road, call it empyrean way, driving down at a decent speed. Up ahead you see what appears to be a road block, but it's actually a 100 foot tall wall that extends 200 miles in either direction. You look at your gas and there's only a few gallons left. On the side of the road is a gas station, the only one around for days. The gas price is $700 per gallon. You have three choices: pay for the gas to get around the wall, walk around the wall, or give up. And the only thing on the other side of the wall is the same car you already have, but slightly better.

The 1 Empy that gives a far higher boost over the 95 version didn't even get a mention?

Daurdabla!