Small Request to Raise Dagger's Base Damage a tad.

lol that's some wot. Really man, i agree with most of your points. I just don't agree on this one thing, because we in fact shine in low haste scenario. And that's the only thing i was trying to show. Maybe i should have worked on some spreadsheet numbers again, but i was too lazy for that (still am). The problem is that we can't extend this performance to super buffed situations. Well, the real problem is actually that the game is all about super buffed situations now. And this is why we are excluded, our dd concept only worked in 2002.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laphine

lol that's some wot. Really man, i agree with most of your points. I just don't agree on this one thing, because we in fact shine in low haste scenario. And that's the only thing i was trying to show. Maybe i should have worked on some spreadsheet numbers again, but i was too lazy for that (still am). The problem is that we can't extend this performance to super buffed situations. Well, the real problem is actually that the game is all about super buffed situations now. And this is why we are excluded, our dd concept only worked in 2002.

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Yah, As i said, We do have situations where we shine a bit more, But theres not a lot of "low buff' Situations theres days, And Dynamis most DD sub /DNC for proc, Which kinda skews it as well. THF Can Sub WAR outside, and Other jobs can Sub /SAM, or /WAR, which kinda favors other jobs a bit more.

The situations of unbuffed DD are kinda going away, most events have the COR/BRD Parties again (maybe outside Neo-Nyzul).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I meant in Terms of Base Damage on the weapon, no in terms to the raw DPS output of THF. I rewrote that sentence a dozen times trying to get that out right but i guess the point was still missed to some.

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That's exactly what I'm pointing out. +2 to base damage on weapon. However you keep going on about DPS ratings (eg: Mandau no longer being top DPS), which implies your understanding of the amount of damage you're asking for is likewise based on that. +2 damage on a ~d50 weapon is +4% DPS, and that's not how much damage is actually going to increase.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Moving on. You know as well as anyone how Parses are skewed, You said so yourself. Over-kill Damage, Human Errors, etc.

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Of course I do. You can't judge the difference between two pieces of gear that way. However you -can- make a fairly decent assessment of the overall scale of performance of a person. An approximation, not an exact value.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I don't understand how this conversation keeps going to me debunking the idea that I think THF is a terrible DD and sucks in all forms

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Perhaps because that's what you keep saying? That the only way a thf is beating another DD is if the other DD is gimp?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Thief can perform well In Dynamis, and is popular as such, because everything in Dynamis Is so far below you in Level your Evasion is great and your Attack is easier to cap on them, helping THF pull ahead.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

But once the enemies go above level 85, and gain some real DEF on THF, it gets a bit tougher.

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DC mobs in Dynamis are level 96-97, which were the targets in my parse samples.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Beyond that, A few parses of a THF not out-dding a 90Emp SAM isn't really shocking to me.

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It wasn't meant to be shocking. It was meant to dispute a specific point you made, that thf doesn't even come close to a real (non-gimp) DD. After accounting for the TP spent on Haste Samba, the damage split between the two of us was 49/51. Yes, the sam still won. Big deal. It's a counterargument specifically to show that your statement is false.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

The thing is, In Voidwatch, If you're invited on THF, its because 1) Your party leader is like 'Sure whatever', or your friends with the person. THF has no unique procs, and while it can DD Well, Replacing it with another DD is more favorable. Even a DNC, DNC provides more procs.

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Which has exactly *nothing* to do with thf's damage capabilities. It is solely down to how Voidwatch functions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

In case the reasoning for these quotes is lost like they were when i first said them. its Emphasis on the fact i feel THF Is no slouch as a DD

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Except that you also keep making statements contrary to those points.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

You're keeping up with that SAM, But Theres a lot of factors we don't know, Did he Hold WS's when it looks like the mob was low on HP, or did you, Who melee'd the most, Did you turn around to proc, both of your Gear sets, so on, so forth.

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To add some clarity to that parse:


Thf Exenterator avg: 2294 (almost always stacked with SA/TA)
Sam Shoha avg: 2298
Sam Fudo avg: 2389

#Exenterators: 101
#Shoha+Fudo: 165

Avg hits per weaponskill for sam: 5.40 (5-hit with some loss from using steps)
Avg hits per weaponskill for thf: 31.17 (higher loss due to keeping up Haste Samba)

Total weaponskill damage:
Thf: 233370
Sam: 383270

Total melee damage:
Thf: 329437
Sam: 245379

Sam clearly won by miles on the weaponskill side, but I mostly compensated for that on the melee side.

As far as I recall, there was no turning to proc unless the mob was at like 5% and a JA timer was about to come up. No more than a few seconds was wasted in those situations, and they were rare.

Can't provide gear sets, unfortunately.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Even when i Say the words "I can go, I have PUP, BST, THF, DRG, WAR, MNK, THF has Mandau" to a VW shout who's 10/18 and could look for any job, Know what answer i get 9/10? "Smn". Because Despite having a Relic, my SMN is more useful than my THF in Voidwatch.

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That's because nobody wants to go smn >.> So if they can get you on it, that's more useful than trying to find someone else who even has it above level 4.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

The job, While at its core has the ability to perform well I ask you, Has no unique quality keeping it useful these days. THF is never a wanted job, TH is a Wanted Trait, and in most cases, a Trait that you can ascertain elsewhere, BST for instance, and /THF with a Certain Sash.

TH4+ is a part of the job, But it needs to be re-evaluated outside of giving some undisclosed boost to drop rate.

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All well and good, and valid points, but once again have -nothing- to do with the supposed purpose of this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motenten

That's exactly what I'm pointing out. +2 to base damage on weapon. However you keep going on about DPS ratings (eg: Mandau no longer being top DPS), which implies your understanding of the amount of damage you're asking for is likewise based on that. +2 damage on a ~d50 weapon is +4% DPS, and that's not how much damage is actually going to increase.

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I meant in terms of the actual base damage of the weapon. Like, If Mandau Was D:50, and it got upgraded to D:55, It would be +10% To base Damage, Not your damage output, Specifically speaking on the number of the actual Displayed value on the Dagger.

Yes I'm aware its a weird thing to say.

Quote:

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Of course I do. You can't judge the difference between two pieces of gear that way. However you -can- make a fairly decent assessment of the overall scale of performance of a person. An approximation, not an exact value.

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Depends on the Parse. You can't parse yourself against someone who's only known value is "90 Masa" and show a THF who's only known values are "2x Thokcha" and expect the parse to be taken at face value. You don't post your Gearsets, his Gearsets, nothing.

Parses are great, But can be vastly skewed in one way or the other by simple human error, They only give good Estimations in controlled environments, Dynamis is not such a place. In my opinion anyway.

Quote:

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Perhaps because that's what you keep saying? That the only way a thf is beating another DD is if the other DD is gimp?

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Half wrong. but, I'm confused by this statement, Are you trying to tell me that THF is fully capable of beating another real DD, like an Ukon WAR, When they're both equally geared and skilled?

*Explained In my post below*

Quote:

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It wasn't meant to be shocking.

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Yes, I guess my choice of words is wrong. Maybe I should have said "I'm not surprised about these results, Its kinda what i Anticipate would happen". At the same time, I go on to try and convey, "I need more information to take these at value". Some people think Empyrean+1 Armor is somehow good, This SAM could be in Empyrean+1 armor, Barely capping haste, and Using a half-arsed WS Set.

not saying he is, Just dont really have strong information on this guy. If i provided you a parse that Showed me doing 54% Damage, and someone i call "ukonWAR" doing 46%, Would that mean THF > WAR, or would you ask for Gear Sets, etc. You have to put yourself in my shoes. Taking things for face value is rarely a good move, only thing I'm attempting to do is ascertain the situations you are coming to these results in.

Quote:

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It was meant to dispute a specific point you made, that thf doesn't even come close to a real (non-gimp) DD. After accounting for the TP spent on Haste Samba, the damage split between the two of us was 49/51. Yes, the sam still won. Big deal. It's a counterargument specifically to show that your statement is false.

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You proved to me what i already knew. a Good THF Can come close to another Good DD in events where neither party is actually buffed beyond Haste (maybe? Did your WHM Keep haste up at all times?)

You provided one parse as proof, I could parse a Melee RDM out-DDing an Ukon WAR, But everyone would look at me like an idiot if i walked into the RDM forums and said "See, I proved you guys Wrong, RDM can DD". I'd be laughed off the forums.

Quote:

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Which has exactly *nothing* to do with thf's damage capabilities. It is solely down to how Voidwatch functions.

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Actually, I beg to differ, If THF was a good DD, It could grab a DD spot. It barely fits that role, If what you said was true, It would Imply THF was in Demand other places, Just not voidwatch because of how it functions, When in reality, Thats not true as well. THF is really not wanted or needed everywhere. It starts like PLD, in the way, people always bring it to new events, or as a "Well, I guess we have one more spot..." Safety-net type deal, and slowly, People stop using it again once they realize they can get away with someone coming /THF, Or bring a BLU and setting TH, or bringing a BST, all who offer more than THF has to offer, in terms of Damage, and support.

Quote:

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Except that you also keep making statements contrary to those points.

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*Explained in post below*

THF is for all intents and purposes the RDM of Melee jobs. We excel at nothing. We have no unique qualities or aspects. Its a job that poorly does what other jobs can already do, and this sets the bar on its uses.

In the grand scheme of things, THF is a useless job. Its one bread and butter is TH, and even that, Is optional at best when there are other options out there for Obtaining TH, and most of them come with a net gain in some field.

being an "Adequate" DD means nothing in FFXI, Being "Second place" means nothing. The job has nothing remarkable or useful about it. No matter how you math or parse it, THF will never come out on Top. So in that regards, It needs help.

Not exactly in a DD manner, But as I've repeated more times than i can even pretend to care to count, My focus is not always on the DD manner of THF, Sure, It needs to keep up, But at the same time, Giving it more unique qualities is what It deep down needs.

Quote:

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To add some clarity to that parse:

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Thank you for the clarity. And at least attempting to provide gear sets even though you couldn't, I appreciate the thought.

Quote:

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That's because nobody wants to go smn >.> So if they can get you on it, that's more useful than trying to find someone else who even has it above level 4.

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I agree, Its likely cause no one wants to go SMN, but its also cause THF is a liability, Its not as good as DD as a WAR, so its not going to get a DD slot, it has no Unique Procs, and it has nothing else going for it, Sadly.

Quote:

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All well and good, and valid points, but once again have -nothing- to do with the supposed purpose of this thread.

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Read pages 3-7. I've already explained what the meaning of this thread was, and it certainly was never, ever, Making THF the best DD, or that somehow this proposed adjustment is somewhere in my "top 3 wishlist". It was a passing thought.

At this point, Nothing I'm arguing with you about pertains to the OP in my mind, Thats old news to me, i've grown past the idea of wanting this particular part of the update thanks to someone on page 3.

To Clarify the best i can. In terms of me on the subject of "THF is a useless DD" and "THF can deal good Damage", Its not contradicting. Lets put it this Way.

THF is a Car that can go 80 MPH,
WAR can go 100MPH
SAM can go 90MPH

In this comparison, THF is still a fast car(read; Good DD on its own), But if your Goal is getting from A to B as quick as possible, You don't chose a THF mobile, You chose the WARmobile(Read: THF is useless when placed next to WAR). in the same way, Thats how THF DD looks, and what i'm trying to Convey, Its not contradicting, You just have to know how to look at it.

I don't want THF to go 100MPH, I want THF to go 80MPH, But make friendly Cars around it Gain 10MPG to their Fuel consumption, and maybe enemy cars go 5MPH slower. Keeping it a Fast Car, But making other Cars perform better so its useful to have it a long in more ways than just being "A fast car, But not as fast...".

Otherwise, You'd just replace the 80MPH Car with the 100MPH Car and gain 20MPH.

Right now, THF Goes 80MPH and Sprinkles magic dust behind it(TH), no one knows exactly what all the magic dust does, We just know it looks pretty and someone tells us its like rubbing Cheetah Blood on the car.

I think this explanation works.

Well I do think thf can do alot, given proper situations lol. The main one I'm saying is a dnc and thf combo :D makes my day when the monster dies and noone needs curing in 10 seconds. Not saying it beats war or sam, just saying, alot of times doing too much damage too fast results in less gil and more curing. If legion doesn't have a procing system like i hear, I think thf will be considered useful again though, which is great. SE needs to realize Th and hate control was thfs main intent, and capping enmity on any DD job is way too easy and the main events don't require TH atm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Oh? They feel weaker. Odd. Do Beastmen have lower Defense than normal mobs? (outside of PLDs)

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Not especially (though it may vary slightly between, say, yags and orcs). The 'weakness' is probably almost entirely to do with not having to fight against level correction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

If i provided you a parse that Showed me doing 54% Damage, and someone i call "ukonWAR" doing 46%, Would that mean THF > WAR, or would you ask for Gear Sets, etc. You have to put yourself in my shoes. Taking things for face value is rarely a good move, only thing I'm attempting to do is ascertain the situations you are coming to these results in.

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Perfectly understandable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

This SAM could be in Empyrean+1 armor, Barely capping haste, and Using a half-arsed WS Set.

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I know she has Zelus Tiara, all +2 gear, Hachiman legs (it was one of her big upgrades back at 75; not sure if there's anything better for sam now), Grim Cuirass +1, and am pretty sure hits the 25% haste/5-hit ideal on Masa right now. There's not much she doesn't have best-in-slot for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Did your WHM Keep haste up at all times?

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Most of the time. Total time hasted was about the same for each of us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

And as posted above, I wont completely repeat, I know nothing about you or the Sam outside of your WS choice. you SA gear, your TA Gear, Your definition of 'Good', nothing.

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Point. But it would be far easier to point you at my xml files (Motenten on pastebin) than to give gear lists for me, at least, as they're rather complex. Have had a few bits of equipment upgraded since that parse, though.


Theorycrafting with the spreadsheet to look at higher buff situations.

Thf and Mnk vs a fake Qilin (lvl 106, 640 def; not realistic def, but guessing for a tough mob for Legion). Both are in buff party getting double Marches and Chaos Roll. Dia II on mob. Both thf and mnk are /war using RCBs, both have Berserk up; mnk gets Impetus. Middling-to-good gear for both, no Empyrean weapons, just AH/magians/merit weaponskills.

Mnk: 290 (260 without Impetus)
Thf: 247

Dropping mob def to 540 (more realistic)

Mnk: 351 (318 without Impetus)
Thf: 284

In this case, yes, I can somewhat agree with you regarding the spread of damage potential.

On the very high def mob, they weren't too far apart, aside from Impetus (meaning the gap could largely be closed with a similar JA buff). As the def drops to more reasonable levels the value of crits declines, allowing the mnk to pull further ahead. Overall split in the first case would be 46% thf, 54% mnk; in the latter case it would be about 45% thf, 55% mnk.

That's enough of a gap to be noticeable. On the other hand, your (granted no longer advocated) proposal would shift the thf's percentage in the latter case from 44.72% to... 45.24%.


So, while there's certainly a gap that needs to be addressed, a base damage increase is really nowhere close to a solution.

Upper limit of improvement from any JA idea: 15%. Very unlikely due to 'balance' issues.

A buff in the 5%-10% range would not seem unreasonable. 5% as a conservative estimate. Base damage increase needed to provide that would be bumping a fire Thokcha from d47 to d51, an 8.5% increase in base damage.


However a base damage increase seems too simplistic a solution; personally, I'd prefer something that buffed damage in conjunction with thf's other utility roles.

Random idea: A JA that uses another player's current hate as a source of damage. Take the hate they've built up and literally use it as a weapon (while also dropping that person's hate). An extension of the Accomplice/Collaborator JAs. If too problematic, add additional damage based on the amount of hate stolen (a sort of bastardized version of drk's Scarlet Delirium).

I edit like mad so Its always good to allow 10-20 Minutes before quoting me. That said, You should check out these:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ead-Contribute!
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...raps-and-Bombs.

Theres a lot more suggestion floating around, I think THF needs a lot of buffs, More toward helping them stand out and less toward DD, Their DD could use a boost, but nothing substantial if they get other boosts.

I'm getting headaches of confusion reading this thread.

Here's two statements, both of which are completely true:
1. Thief is a decent DD
2. Thief is a horrible DD

The problem is how you judge its DD-ness. Can a THF get shit done? Most certainly. Does it compare to real DDs? Not one bit. Motenten your math skills in all honors but show me those parses because I will not believe a thing of it until I see it with my own eyes. I play both THF and WAR to the best of my abilities (which I consider pretty good) and they are lightyears apart, so much that I cannot call a THF a DD if someone asks whether or not it is. I take a minute to kill NMs that take me five or more to kill on THF. And I admit that my dagger options are currently "meh" at best, but even counting a 20% efficiency gain I'd get from Mandau/Coruscanti I still wouldn't get near my WAR in damage, and anyone who says that I cannot, in good conscience, take seriously.

So if anyone is calling THF a gimp DD it's me, stop putting it on Karby. I don't see him saying it once. THF can get shit done and I get shit done on THF too whenever time is not an issue and I prefer having TH or more survival capabilities, I still would never bring it to any type of non-TH-able party situation like Voidwatch or Einherjar (yes, some people still do that). THF is a TH whore right now and in very few instances a good evasion tank, for whenever it's needed (which is barely anything these days). Anyone who even for a second believes otherwise is kidding themselves.

Also, it was obvious he was talking about weapon DPS not melee DPS. Also, SMN is the shit.

kinda a bad idea.

mainly because it won't change anything really but give thf a small dmg boost and could be done alot easier by giving THF triple attack II or w/e.

either way seems a waste of a dev's time tweaking this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

kinda a bad idea.

mainly because it won't change anything really but give thf a small dmg boost and could be done alot easier by giving THF triple attack II or w/e.

either way seems a waste of a dev's time tweaking this.

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Well yah, We've moved on from this idea. Even me.

That said, We already have Triple Attack II, and any job Adjustment, unless its a nerf, Is worth the Devs time. Considering their time has no tangible value.

Don't think sam can use grim cuirrass +1 lol...OR i would have one.

Eh, it's probly for her war or drk or something then. They were just items I remembered offhand that she's put a lot of effort into getting.

Honestly, this entire issue will forever be shrouded in 'grey area' territory.

Thf currently: Does some damage. Not as much as top tier super buffed up 60TP, return 80% hasted, cor/brd buffed warriors. Does more damage than a full support (Brd for example).


No one says they should do THAT much damage as a superman war. Good we agree. No one says we should be on Brd level. Good we agree. So all anyone fighting for increased damage can say is "we dont do enough damage because our utility isnt very useful". The forest will always get lost for the trees because trying to pin down how much damage is 'enough' is 100% opinion and no way to quantitatively determine how much 'damage' thf deserves to have and in which of a myriad of situations it should apply.

Its WAY to fluffy and entirely dependant on everyones personal view of what 'enough' damage is. If all you do is farm dynamis, thf is more than adequate. If all you do is VW, then you will be frustrated and pissed off because thf is junky
___________________
Note on VW:
I feel that is more due to lack of procs than damage. People prefer smns to real DDs for procs. War/Drks proc more than most DDs WHILE doing good damage. I get asked to go Rng over my GD Ryunohige mythic Drg that rapes EVERYONE in DD power because rng covers way more procs than drg. People dont really invite jobs to VW for prime DD in most cases. They need procs because a group of medium DDs with infinite fanatics drinks and TP wings>>>>>Super DDs with 1-2 refills. If my damn Ryunohige drg gets cut for my mediocre rng, tripling thfs damage will have NO effect on VW. No procs. No VW love. The end.
____________________
/back on topic.
It is an uphill battle to obtain any concensus on where thf damage 'should' be because it is weighing a tangible gain (damage, specifically vs high end mobs) vs intangible ones whos value is entirely in the eye of the beholder and what they personally do with thf.

Its not really an argument you can win because there is no finish line. That is why i took the stance early on in the thread about 'what tangible problem does it solve' because we will never gain any consensus on what level of damage is 'adequate' for thf. Some people are very happy with their overall damage based ontheir experience. Some think its dismal (if all you do is VW/Large zergy events). Trying to rally thfs all under 1 banner will prove more problematic than consolidating the republican constituency behind 1 canditate this year :P

Much like going to the rdm forums and saying we need a 5% boost to nuking damage to make it 'more viable'. No one will argue that a 5% nuke boost doesnt help make rdm nukeing 'more viable' but will devolve into a 'Rdm nuking is fine for what rdm is' vs 'Rdm isnt a blm! Quit trying to make it a heavy nuker we dont need it!!!' Or similarly upping sword damage as a solution to rdm melee would encounter virtually identical infighting.

Why is everything about VW lol?

because voidwatch is the current endgame? no matter what other events you do, you will have to face vw in the end. I even had plans to work on mandau for more thieving power, but why bother? In the end i would have to go back to vw and stop using thf (and all these items i worked my ass for) forever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fupafighter

Why is everything about VW lol?

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Laphine summed it up nicely, But its because its the current endgame content where the majority of the good Armor in the game comes from, and will come from in the near future.

There are other endgame events planned, And currently Neo-Nyzul exists, But Neo-Nyzul as i explained in the Neo-Nyzul thread isn't THF Friendly either, With the update coming along where you can "kill 5 bosses = get 1 piece of that bosses item" or "Kill Floor 100 once and get 1 Floor 100 body", while the normal Enemies can still drop those items, Dropping a THF for a WAR or BLU or a better DD in general and picking up a few more moments of killspeed is far more favorable than bringing in the "magic dust" that may or may not get you a drop.

Being able to largely increase your chance of Consistently hitting floor 80 by Dropping TH and picking up a Faster DD is a much smarter idea than bringing a THF In hope it causes the mob to drop something. Not saying to leave TH out entirely, have your Mage come /THF, or if you're using a SCH and they need /WHM for Haste, Then bring a BST, or have one of your BLU's set Treasure Hunter.

If dropping your THF Gets you to Floor 80 Even 20% more often, You've shortened the time it would take to get all the floor 100 Armor by Weeks if not Months. Thief is, because TH's being its only "use", a liability in just about every endgame event of consequence.

SE Sees it too, But instead of buffing THF, god forbid they actually buff a job like they promised too, they nerf BST, which won't make a difference in the long run, because the only event that'd effect in reality is Dynamis, and that won't stop BSTs from doing Dynamis on BST because if your options are to solo, BST/DNC > THF/DNC, no amount of Unknown mysterious drop rate increases will change that.

Legion, In the upcomming future, Appears to implore a random-drop system as well, So that might mean 1 Single THF might make its way into some alliances, but that doesn't quite make the job okay. (and before its lost, THF isn't the only job that suffers from this, just the one in discussion)

Altho I can honestly admit to not reading the entire post, SE doesn't have a track record of repeatedly changing things due to "balance" other than messing with COR rolls more times than I can recall over the years. They've actually given dagger a fairly large damage boost than what it originally was, proof being that Garuda's Dagger used to be one of the better daggers to have until they changed 98% of the dmg up a few notches, yet it still retains the original stats placed upon it. However if they do actually read through it (hopefully more than myself) it would be nice to have higher dps as THF instead of just burst damage without having to run empy aftermath for a few extra points of damage.

Examples of the last times they did it being
http://www.zam.com/wiki/September_14...tes_%28FFXI%29

http://www.zam.com/wiki/July_25%2C_2...tes_%28FFXI%29

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Can a THF get shit done? Most certainly. Does it compare to real DDs? Not one bit. Motenten your math skills in all honors but show me those parses because I will not believe a thing of it until I see it with my own eyes. I play both THF and WAR to the best of my abilities (which I consider pretty good) and they are lightyears apart, so much that I cannot call a THF a DD if someone asks whether or not it is. I take a minute to kill NMs that take me five or more to kill on THF.

---

Some things to remember about comparing THF and WAR in the time it takes to solo a mob...

• Retalliation allows a WAR to do more damage to a mob that is attacking it. (due to extra TP gained from counters allowing them to WS more frequently).
  
  Aside from Bully, Sneak Attack Mechanics mean that a THF does less damage to a mob that is attacking it.
  
  If you're solo or even duoing with a mage, you're losing out on Trick Attack damage/WS stacking.

THF and WAR on a mob at the same time, both performing to the best of their abilities with decent gear/weapons, aren't really going to be miles apart, especially if the THF gets enough hate to prevent the WAR getting loads of counters off, but is able to connect Sneak Attack every time. Faster attacking mobs will obviously allow the WAR to retalliate more, and deal a higher % of the overall damage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Some things to remember about comparing THF and WAR in the time it takes to solo a mob...

• Retalliation allows a WAR to do more damage to a mob that is attacking it.
  
  Aside from Bully, Sneak Attack Mechanics mean that a THF does less damage to a mob that is attacking it.
  
  If you're solo or even duoing with a mage, you're losing out on Trick Attack damage/WS stacking.

THF and WAR on a mob at the same time, both performing to the best of their abilities with decent gear/weapons, aren't really going to be miles apart, especially if the THF gets enough hate to prevent the WAR getting loads of counters off, but is able to connect Sneak Attack every time. Faster attacking mobs will obviously allow the WAR to retalliate more, and deal a higher % of the overall damage.

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So let me get this straight, the argument here is that apparently MOST of war's damage comes from retaliation? ...lol

Please explain to us a situation or two where THF would encompass close to 70:30 of a parse against a 'fairly equal' war. Or what are you considering 'not miles apart' are you talking 50%, 40%, 5%? Sure the above comparison is a little off, but the point is in almost every single situation(at least that I can think of) a WAR(or SAM, or DRK) is going to be 30%+ higher on a parse of <.<

*Unless of course your comparing an extremely high end to an extremely low end gear/skill player. While it'll always be hard to get 'equal skill and gear' we can try.

I guess ill have to go thf to legion once i finish my mandau as there is a war in my LS that is about as close to the magical "equal skill, equal gear" to me that I have ever found that I have access to play with on a regular basis.

Both have relic and empy (well ill obtain my 75 mandau tomorrow, so close enough :P). Both have premiere gear of similar calibur. Both play very aggressively. Both gear swap and optimize TP builds. X factor that we both play 'intelligently' (hard to quantify) and both had a friendly rivalry that goes back at least 3 years from his war vs my drg in einherjar twice a week as #1 and #2 without fail (unless someone died or had some otherwise terrible luck). He's frankly the best war on the server im aware of, and im (likely) the best drg (i know of 2 other mythic drgs, but never seen them in action) and my thf is of a very similar calibur as my drg once i get a mandau as far as reaching potential. This guy is basically the barometer I use to see if I can pull my weight on any job. An intelligent, superbly geared war!? BLASPHEMY!!!

I just hope legion isnt another damn medicated overdose event. Is it to much to ask for ONE large event that is 'clean' to see where everyone stands instead of this atma/atmacite/med spamming crap? I have been looking forward to legion for just this reason for ages. I want to see how everything shakes out at 99 with all the adjustments without being swung by who uses the most meds, who get stuck procing for half the fight instead of killing. Just a clean slate, even field to go romp in. I hope legion is what i think it will be ><

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Originally Posted by Starry

So let me get this straight, the argument here is that apparently MOST of war's damage comes from retaliation? ...lol

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When a Warrior is the only thing hitting a thing with a thing, that Warrior can take full advantage of Retaliation for more damage.

When a Thief is the only thing hitting a thing with a thing, that Thief can not use Trick Attack at all and is limited by Bully recast for Sneak Attack.

He's not saying most of Warrior's damage comes from Retaliation, just that a one-melee situation super-duper heavily favors Warrior over Thief. More than almost any situation would favor almost any melee over Thief.

In a similar vein, I think Thief and one or two other competent melee leads to better Sneak Attack and Trick Attack results than most situations. The monster doesn't spin like a top and no one present is daft, dim, water-headed, malevolent, or malicious enough to move out of the way of Trick Attack.

Thief's performance is more at the mercy of outside factors and other players than most melee, even other "low attack" melee such as Beastmaster or Dancer.

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Originally Posted by Starry

So let me get this straight, the argument here is that apparently MOST of war's damage comes from retaliation? ...lol

Please explain to us a situation or two where THF would encompass close to 70:30 of a parse against a 'fairly equal' war. Or what are you considering 'not miles apart' are you talking 50%, 40%, 5%? Sure the above comparison is a little off, but the point is in almost every single situation(at least that I can think of) a WAR(or SAM, or DRK) is going to be 30%+ higher on a parse of <.<

*Unless of course your comparing an extremely high end to an extremely low end gear/skill player. While it'll always be hard to get 'equal skill and gear' we can try.

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I have no idea how you got that from what I said...
Here's a hypothetical (but highly probable) situation: Ukon WAR with 25% haste gear, Hasso and haste (from whm that the war is duoing with). 50% haste total resulting in a swing every 4 seconds. Giving the benefit of the doubt for 25% double-attack, and a 6-hit setup, it's 16 seconds between WS, +2 secs for the WS animation. If the mob is hitting on you exclusively, and you retalliate once between each WS, you get the TP from that, not just the damage so now you just reduced your WS timer from 18 seconds to 14 seconds. More than a 22% increase in damage caused by retalliation.

It's hypothetical, and I'm not 100% on what sort of figures for double-attack a WAR can reach in a 6-hit with Ukon, but you get the picture. (I made it 6-hit since it made the numbers easier for averaging double-attack once per ws, and it actually made the difference slightly less increase).

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

When a Warrior is the only thing hitting a thing with a thing, that Warrior can take full advantage of Retaliation for more damage.

When a Thief is the only thing hitting a thing with a thing, that Thief can not use Trick Attack at all and is limited by Bully recast for Sneak Attack.

He's not saying most of Warrior's damage comes from Retaliation, just that a one-melee situation super-duper heavily favors Warrior over Thief. More than almost any situation would favor almost any melee over Thief.

In a similar vein, I think Thief and one or two other competent melee leads to better Sneak Attack and Trick Attack results than most situations. The monster doesn't spin like a top and no one present is daft, dim, water-headed, malevolent, or malicious enough to move out of the way of Trick Attack.

Thief's performance is more at the mercy of outside factors and other players than most melee, even other "low attack" melee such as Beastmaster or Dancer.

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Thanks SW, I'm glad someone got it, so what I was saying obviously wasn't just garbage.

I almost responded to you like Star, But i re-read it a couple times, and realized all you were saying was "Another factor is Retaliation, So while its not a huge WAR boost, Its something to consider".

:D

Its very misleading, you should clarify just a little, I can see where Star is coming from.

Yea, I read it a few times and I just couldn't get if he was meaning something else; it really sounded the way I responsed to -- lol.

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That's because nobody wants to go smn >.> So if they can get you on it, that's more useful than trying to find someone else who even has it above level 4.

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This totally this. Simply put having SMN for unique procs > having more then one dagger proc (usually DNC).

My geared jobs are WAR SAM DRK BLU RDM. I have a 90 Almace 99 TP Bonus GKT and 99 Magian GAXE (WS+10%) and a 90 Sissy GSWD. Guess which job I'm constantly asked to go? Not my better geared BLU / WAR / SAM / RDM but DRK. Because apparently not many people have it leveled, it covers useful procs and makes the COR's chaos roll better. I don't like having to go DRK all the time, I feel dirty because it's not geared up to my own personal standard, but if it's needed then it's needed. So don't feel bad if party's are asking you to go SMN over THF, to them it's easier to put you in the SMN slot and know it's taken care of then to have u come THF (a common job now) and have to scrounge for a SMN.

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Originally Posted by Starry

Yea, I read it a few times and I just couldn't get if he was meaning something else; it really sounded the way I responsed to -- lol.

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Ok, I edited it... hope this makes more sense now?

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Retalliation allows a WAR to do more damage to a mob that is attacking it. (due to extra TP gained from counters allowing them to WS more frequently).

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