SE's stance on Cure V

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Originally Posted by saevel

This is all about what you can get away with, currently our tank party is PLD PLD RDM BRD WHM <other>. The BRD and RDM (me) are there to support the healer and tanks. What people are wanting is that the RDM gets Cure V and thus you can kick the WHM out for another melee or BRD. This gets very important when you start talking MNK tanks as super buffing them actually makes a difference. The melee parties are usually DD DD DD DD DD WHM, the BLM / SMN party usually has the COR inside it. Giving RDM Cure V will replace the DD's WHM with a RDM.

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What exactly is the rdm doing in the tank party(I'm assuming this is voidwatch)? That's the first job I would take out. Your Refresh II isn't needed. I even tell the brd to prioritize giving me scherzo over ballads as the whm if the brd is busy because mp doesn't run out in that event.

Your melee parties also seemed messed up. It's supposed to be DD DD DD DD whm cor/brd/smn in the last slot. Putting a cor in the blm pt is a waste. What exactly is it going to give them? In the melee pt cor can give tact / misers or the brd can scherzo + something, the smn can give EA in either the tank or dd pt. Also why would it be bad if the DD's pt could substitute a sch or rdm in for a whm? There are different types of DD in the party why can't there be different healers?

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Originally Posted by saevel

And to the guy who's practicing selective reading. MP was never the issue with WHM, RDM or SCH for healing. The problem was time. We can only cast a single spell at a time, and those spells tend to have annoying cast / recast times. A RDM can simply do more then a WHM in any given block of time, the WHM still heals better / harder but it was the RDM who could spam Cure IV / III / Haste / Erase / Paralyna / Silena faster (back at 75). Doing so game the RDM player a huge headache and we constantly talked about being "burned out", but LS leaders didn't care about that.

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Now I'm not agreeing with your statement that mp wasn't the issue, but considering whm has divine benision / +2 legs and thus capped casting time / recast on nas / erases I don't see how rdm will be casting faster on that. Whm can also spam cure fine now when it needs to. Haste is subbable /whm and soon to be /rdm and even then the whm can keep up fine.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Thus if you give RDM Cure V they'll be able to spam Cure V / Cure IV / <everything else> faster then a WHM can. WHM is still the better healer, RDM becomes the more versatile healer.

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Whm can get plenty of CCT so no rdm will not be spamming cures faster and what exactly is <everything else>?

Wait, Saevel's Melee RDM/NIN is in the tank party in Voidwatch? Seriously?

Oh, that's funny.

Main Curing on a RDM isn't interesting in the slightest to me. I'm fine with low-man healing and back up healing. If Cure 3 and 4 are adjusted to be less outdated then mission accomplished.

The other neglected parts of RDM are much more of a concern to myself and others. Enfeebling would be my primary concern at this point.

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Originally Posted by Dantedmc

What exactly is the rdm doing in the tank party(I'm assuming this is voidwatch)? That's the first job I would take out. Your Refresh II isn't needed. I even tell the brd to prioritize giving me scherzo over ballads as the whm if the brd is busy because mp doesn't run out in that event.

Your melee parties also seemed messed up. It's supposed to be DD DD DD DD whm cor/brd/smn in the last slot. Putting a cor in the blm pt is a waste. What exactly is it going to give them? In the melee pt cor can give tact / misers or the brd can scherzo + something, the smn can give EA in either the tank or dd pt. Also why would it be bad if the DD's pt could substitute a sch or rdm in for a whm? There are different types of DD in the party why can't there be different healers?




Now I'm not agreeing with your statement that mp wasn't the issue, but considering whm has divine benision / +2 legs and thus capped casting time / recast on nas / erases I don't see how rdm will be casting faster on that. Whm can also spam cure fine now when it needs to. Haste is subbable /whm and soon to be /rdm and even then the whm can keep up fine.



Whm can get plenty of CCT so no rdm will not be spamming cures faster and what exactly is <everything else>?

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It is VW and you obviously have no idea what your doing. Melee's spend most of their time outside aoe range unless their called in to proc something or we're going to proc HV !! for the blitz light bonus. The RDM is there to Refresh the WHM and the PLDs, and yes the refresh is needed along with our G.horn BRD. The COR is there to do the same to the BLMs and SMNs so they can proc lights. The only buffer I'd put with the melee's is a BRD for the -PDT song for when they have to proc something.

Your suggestions sound like a zerg run, which we sometimes do when we just want a win and don't care about drops. Then it's PD and swapping a 2hr BRD around with SCH's embrava. Otherwise you focus on procing weakness's to build lights, you do want drops yes?

Last three WS's last run we did. Just did SS of what was in the log after we won and were warping out.

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/f...debrannCDC.png

Let the hating and name calling begin.

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Originally Posted by saevel

It is VW and you obviously have no idea what your doing. Melee's spend most of their time outside aoe range unless their called in to proc something or we're going to proc HV !! for the blitz light bonus. The RDM is there to Refresh the WHM and the PLDs, and yes the refresh is needed along with our G.horn BRD. The COR is there to do the same to the BLMs and SMNs so they can proc lights. The only buffer I'd put with the melee's is a BRD for the -PDT song for when they have to proc something.

Your suggestions sound like a zerg run, which we sometimes do when we just want a win and don't care about drops. Then it's PD and swapping a 2hr BRD around with SCH's embrava. Otherwise you focus on procing weakness's to build lights, you do want drops yes?

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That's funny because the groups I go with get capped lights most of the time unless there's a proc that we don't have. I've also beaten all the VWNMS except Aello and one tier2 because I haven't been able to get a group for them.The melee are allowed to go in whenever the nm is hq procced and their fanatic's is up as well as when they have a proc called or when damage needs to be done to take down the nm. As long as the DD have appropriate hp gear and/or -dt gear they can stay in there for a while. One time the mnk pt wiped to kaggen and the drk in my pt tanked kaggen until it was dead because he had appropriate hp and -dt gear.

I'll say it again. You're fooling yourself if you think someone needs your refresh especially with a ghorn bard. So your saying a whm needs:

7 from rdm
mballad 3 + 4 (ghorn / +2 legs) / mballad 2+4 or 13 tic refresh from the brd
a non ghorn brd can give 3 +2 (+1 ballad harp / +2 legs) and 2 +2 or 9 tic. (Though personally I tell the brd to give me scherzo / mages 3 or just scherzo when busy. I only tell the brd to give me double ballads when I get weakened)
the refresh that the whm already has and +2 legs
2x lucid ethers IIs / manapowders that get restored everytime you get a hq proc and have a chance with a nq.

Your whm must REALLY suck if it needs all that.

I'll say it again cor in the blm pt is a waste. The cor can give 2-4 refresh and some mab or fc to the blms(I may be forgetting some piece of gear that will raise this amout). Where as it could give regain / save tp to the DD pt. That along with monarch's drink and the voidwrought atma make tp gain crazy. The blms should also have the kis granting 2x lucid ether and 2x manapowder that can be restored. The lucid ethers are 1000 mp and the manapowders are 25% mp to anyone in the radius. 50% / person x 6 = 300% of someone's mp pool. Blm can also have up to 7 tic gear refresh and convert / refresh from /rdm.

I also like who you didn't answer the whole part of my quote talking about what rdm is going to spam faster than whm.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Last three WS's last run we did. Just did SS of what was in the log after we won and were warping out.

Let the hating and name calling begin.

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There is a "New Topic" option on the forums if you want to post shots of melee damage. This is a topic about the ever-lasting talk of Cure V, so do keep on topic about it. If someone is snipping remarks about your play style, ignore them rather than fall for their baiting of you and stay on topic.


On-Topic: While I've seen the OP, I don't understand why people keep hanging up on the cure potency when that quote also states they are looking into possibly changing how healing is affected by Mnd and Skill as well as adjusting the hard-caps which were originally meant for lvl 75 cap. I would hope these adjustments have enmity adjustments so that the spells remain equal to the enmity they are now rather than increasing in enmity. I would much rather see a Cure IV doing upwards of ~700hp and Cure III doing around 350~400 range ideally.

As for why WHM was phased out in the past, it most certainly was due to mp-related reasons. Where a rdm could simply use Dalm+Relic head or Morrigans+relic head +refresh and easily handle TP burn pt's for hours on end, a whm would run out of mp. Whm was more useful in areas that had refresh support for them, but since 80+ this has been reversed to whm taking the place they were meant to as primary healer.

While giving Rdm Cure V would not absolutely unbalance this, being as Cure V still is not substantial enough to handling the AOE happy behavior of NM's theses days, it would phase Whm out of certain aspects of play and further encourage low-man activities. This is assuming the fact that full potency geared whm Cure V does double what Cure IV does currently at roughly 1.55x the mp cost of Cure IV and very little hate generation.

I think one of the main concerns of giving rdm cure V isn't so much party utilization as it is self-sustaining utilization for those who do enjoy soloing, much to the same reason of higher regen spells.

take it from a guy who has whm lvled, but not sch or rdm and never plans to lvl either of those jobs: please give rdm cure5. i guess sch can have it too :o but i don't think they need it nearly as bad since they can play blm-style so much better than rdm.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Last three WS's last run we did. Just did SS of what was in the log after we won and were warping out.

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/f...debrannCDC.png

Let the hating and name calling begin.

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That's very cool, but when you do VW you don't want DMG you want procc so you can possibly (like never) get decent drop.

Now pls go back with the whm and cast refresh and haste for once, kthx.

Nice try though.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

There is a "New Topic" option on the forums if you want to post shots of melee damage. This is a topic about the ever-lasting talk of Cure V, so do keep on topic about it. If someone is snipping remarks about your play style, ignore them rather than fall for their baiting of you and stay on topic.


On-Topic: While I've seen the OP, I don't understand why people keep hanging up on the cure potency when that quote also states they are looking into possibly changing how healing is affected by Mnd and Skill as well as adjusting the hard-caps which were originally meant for lvl 75 cap. I would hope these adjustments have enmity adjustments so that the spells remain equal to the enmity they are now rather than increasing in enmity. I would much rather see a Cure IV doing upwards of ~700hp and Cure III doing around 350~400 range ideally.

As for why WHM was phased out in the passed, it most certainly was due to mp-related reasons. Where a rdm could simply use Dalm+Relic head or Morrigans+relic head +refresh and easily handle TP burn pt's for hours on end, a whm would run out of mp. Whm was more useful in areas that had refresh support for them, but since 80+ this has been reversed to whm taking the place they were meant to as primary healer.

While giving Rdm Cure V would not absolutely unbalance this, being as Cure V still is not substantial enough to handling the AOE happy behavior of NM's theses days, it would phase Whm out of certain aspects of play and further encourage low-man activities. This is assuming the fact that full potency geared whm Cure V does double what Cure IV does currently at roughly 1.55x the mp cost of Cure IV and very little hate generation.

I think one of the main concerns of giving rdm cure V isn't so much party utilization as it is self-sustaining utilization for those who do enjoy soloing, much to the same reason of higher regen spells.

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You just talked about TP burn parties, we're talking about end game style events. MP wasn't an issue because you'd have a BRD and RDM around for Ballads + Refresh. Shells eventually asked themselves why bring two "healers" just for one to refresh the other and started to drop the WHM in favor of adding another support job to the tank party. This mentality started with the melee parties (DD DD DD DD BRD RDM) and eventually made it to the tank party. All of "end game" was turning into a TP burn zerg fest. That is why SE made the lights / proc system in Abyssea, it was to counter the mentality of "just bring more melee" for all events. Or did you miss all the Samurai hating from other jobs during pre-abyssea era?

I'm personally hoping SE adjusts the formula's so that Healing Magic skill actually means something. That's half the problem now with giving RDM Cure V. We'd hit the softcap same as WHM and the scaling to hard cap is so crappy that we end up 20~30 HP behind a WHM with the same cure pot. That shouldn't happen ~ever~. WHM should have a built in JT for enhancing cure potency along with other perks. WHM should be able to zap off multiple status ailments. But until that happens giving RDM Cure V would just turn it into a WHM-1 again and ToAU 75 era mentality would repeat.

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Originally Posted by Vaness

That's very cool, but when you do VW you don't want DMG you want procc so you can possibly (like never) get decent drop.

Now pls go back with the whm and cast refresh and haste for once, kthx.

Nice try though.

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Haha knew the haters would show up. It was a PD zerg to get the win for members, that particular VWNM doesn't drop anything good so we don't bother building max lights. On things we actually want a drop from we'll stay back and build lights, only run in during a HV proc and so forth. Then at the end we just pop temps / drinks and finish it off.

The whole purpose of that was to silence the "lolMeleeRDM in Voidwatch" peoples. You don't melee on the NM full time, you support from the back and only melee when it's time.

Anyhow back to the communal drinking of the hateraid along with slashing of wrists out of protest for no Cure V.

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Originally Posted by Vaness

That's very cool, but when you do VW you don't want DMG you want procc so you can possibly (like never) get decent drop.

Now pls go back with the whm and cast refresh and haste for once, kthx.

Nice try though.

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Seriously, troll elsewhere.. No one here cares, not even a little.

You obviously cared enough to answer^^

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Originally Posted by saevel

Haha knew the haters would show up. It was a PD zerg to get the win for members, that particular VWNM doesn't drop anything good so we don't bother building max lights. On things we actually want a drop from we'll stay back and build lights, only run in during a HV proc and so forth. Then at the end we just pop temps / drinks and finish it off.

The whole purpose of that was to silence the "lolMeleeRDM in Voidwatch" peoples. You don't melee on the NM full time, you support from the back and only melee when it's time.

Anyhow back to the communal drinking of the hateraid along with slashing of wrists out of protest for no Cure V.

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As much as I want to be nice with you, I think that there is no reason for a rdm meleeing in VW.I could careless in abyssea on some random monsters, but VW really?Mage Jobs are meant to stand back and support the melee, I personally wouldn't mind if 100% of the mage community could melee, do their jobs at 250% and don't die due to being in range of all the nasty moves.But it's deffinitly not the case.ALL the rdm I've been with since abyssea is out seemed to have completly forgetted their support role jobs as healers and enfeeblers.Keeping haste and refresh on is hard apparently.

Don't take me wrong though, I was a full time rdm for nearly 3 years before abyssea came out and I don't like what it became.But melee rdm, seriously?I think you are the one throlling sir.

Stop Crying about not getting Cure 5 and give some non-pathethic suggestions instead, that will show how a dedicaced RDM you are.

Please square enix give redmage cure V because Cure IV cures like sh*t when I full time my leet almace.

QQ to the f*cking Q

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Originally Posted by Vaness

As much as I want to be nice with you, I think that there is no reason for a rdm meleeing in VW.I could careless in abyssea on some random monsters, but VW really?Mage Jobs are meant to stand back and support the melee, I personally wouldn't mind if 100% of the mage community could melee, do their jobs at 250% and don't die due to being in range of all the nasty moves.But it's deffinitly not the case.ALL the rdm I've been with since abyssea is out seemed to have completly forgetted their support role jobs as healers and enfeeblers.Keeping haste and refresh on is hard apparently.

Don't take me wrong though, I was a full time rdm for nearly 3 years before abyssea came out and I don't like what it became.But melee rdm, seriously?I think you are the one throlling sir.

Stop Crying about not getting Cure 5 and give some non-pathethic suggestions instead, that will show how a dedicaced RDM you are.

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Maybe i misread most of saevel's posts in this thread; but isnt he doing exactly what you are saying to do in the bolded bit of your post?

Wow, apparently SE making it clear RDM isn't a cure/enhancing bot isn't clear enough for some people. Tragic!

Now do me a favor and make sure Mr. Block is still okay, I always do worry about him.

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Originally Posted by Spiritreaver

Maybe i misread most of saevel's posts in this thread; but isnt he doing exactly what you are saying to do in the bolded bit of your post?

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I said non-pathetic and no he haven't.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Wow, apparently SE making it clear RDM isn't a cure/enhancing bot isn't clear enough for some people. Tragic!

Now do me a favor and make sure Mr. Block is still okay, I always do worry about him.

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Yeah because obviously SE want you to replace wars.
Asking to help support the whm and use the spell named haste and refresh isn't asking to be an cure/enhancing bot, it's asking you to do your job as a support role.

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Originally Posted by Vaness

I said non-pathetic and no he haven't.

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Well everyone has to make their own calls on qualitative views i guess. Anyways, carry on with the rage. Oh and it should have been 'hasn't' over haven't i think.

English isn't first language etc.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

English isn't first language etc.

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Most likely, but if you're gonna storm into a thread like that, take the time to fine-tune your syntax a bit i say.

I think RDMs not getting Cure V is the correct step so long as they are going to adjust the formulas for curing magic. I'm much more interested in my character's native cure magic actually being a factor in my play, as opposed to be being equally matched with everyone that is /'almost anything with curing magic'.

Full-time curing? No thanks, I average around a C- in that, so I'll just make sure to contribute to healing while doing other things.

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Originally Posted by Spiritreaver

Maybe i misread most of saevel's posts in this thread; but isnt he doing exactly what you are saying to do in the bolded bit of your post?

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Their just hating. Lots of haters on here, been that way since 2004, gonna be that way till the game servers shutdown.

Their the people who the moment they see a RDM with a sword they will freak out and go nuts. Their under the belief that RDM's have a hidden job trait that gives the monster +5 levels, 200 defense 1000 attack and 300tp/tick regain if we hit it. Any attempt to say otherwise has them frothing at the mouth and calling all sorts of insults. And what really gets under their skins isn't just a RDM daring to melee, but one who actually succeeds at a hybrid play style. They go crazy, spew insults and go into a state of mental shock and denial. I've learned over nearly 8 years to just tune them out and mute whenever possible.

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Originally Posted by saevel

You just talked about TP burn parties, we're talking about end game style events. MP wasn't an issue because you'd have a BRD and RDM around for Ballads + Refresh. Shells eventually asked themselves why bring two "healers" just for one to refresh the other and started to drop the WHM in favor of adding another support job to the tank party. This mentality started with the melee parties (DD DD DD DD BRD RDM) and eventually made it to the tank party. All of "end game" was turning into a TP burn zerg fest. That is why SE made the lights / proc system in Abyssea, it was to counter the mentality of "just bring more melee" for all events. Or did you miss all the Samurai hating from other jobs during pre-abyssea era?

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Sigh, first off...you still need to learn to read through the entire post before presuming what the entirety of it is.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

As for why WHM was phased out in the past, it most certainly was due to mp-related reasons. Where a rdm could simply use Dalm+Relic head or Morrigans+relic head +refresh and easily handle TP burn pt's for hours on end, a whm would run out of mp. Whm was more useful in areas that had refresh support for them, but since 80+ this has been reversed to whm taking the place they were meant to as primary healer.

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SE encouraged this style of game-play by introducing content that made traditional parties prior to ToAU obsolete because it was "too slow." Mobs also gained resistance to SC making them less worth-while to plan for/around over tossing a bunch of DD's at it. Additional changes to 2hand stat scaling (from .5 to 1.0 then down to .75) also compounded this as they didn't adjust previous content in reflection of this making it easy to toss DD at it. Then they further compounded this by instating time-limits on killing things, meaning killing faster was preferred over killing slower. These are all changes that SE instigated through various changes over a span of one expansion pack. Naturally players will adapt to this mentality in response to SE making it easier for them to do this. Then again I guess it slipped your mind how horrible 2hander performed prior to all this which included Sam and forced them to use /thf to make sure those big damage one-hitters landed with a punch. Do try to remember the entire span of the game and all aspects before you simply say players made it that way because they didn't, they adapted to that way....SE made it that way.

The only way Cure V is unbalanced is if it was assencionable, which it is not. Thus it is only useful for curing one target for massive amount of HP and virtually no hate. Due to the function of most endgame content as of now, even rdm/sch isn't going to become game-breaking with this spell. Since it still can't fill the role of a whm due to limited AOE cure spells, lack of whm specific buff enhancements, and various other whm specific qualities including JA. So, no...rdm will never outshine whm again due to these various reasons even with Cure V. Does this mean I think rdm should get it? No, because of other reasons that are outside of the endgame utility functions. Hence why I have supported this tid-bit from camate's post:

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Originally Posted by Camate

However, the solution isn’t to limit the functionality of those jobs that assist with curing. So one possibility we’re considering is increasing the influence of the healing skill and MND, as well as increasing the HP recovery amount more than it is currently.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Their just hating. Lots of haters on here, been that way since 2004, gonna be that way till the game servers shutdown.

Their the people who the moment they see a RDM with a sword they will freak out and go nuts. Their under the belief that RDM's have a hidden job trait that gives the monster +5 levels, 200 defense 1000 attack and 300tp/tick regain if we hit it. Any attempt to say otherwise has them frothing at the mouth and calling all sorts of insults. And what really gets under their skins isn't just a RDM daring to melee, but one who actually succeeds at a hybrid play style. They go crazy, spew insults and go into a state of mental shock and denial. I've learned over nearly 8 years to just tune them out and mute whenever possible.

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Holly shit, you assume alot.

#1 I don't know you so I can't obviously not be "hatin" and I am not calling you out on personal vendetta or anything.

#2 We aren't freaking out because we see you with a sword, we freak out because you think you are a war and your post seems to lead towards a person that don't care about anything except how supposely leet you are as a melee.

#3 RDM always has been an hybrid job, being able to melee decently, cure/support and nukes.It's not JUST melee or just healer or just nuker, it's an awesome combo of all those quality together.

#4 lol just lol

I'm going to leave this here because Saevel retardness has eaten all my braincells, now I understand why everyone tells me to stay away from official forums.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

l????

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Seriously what does that have to do with this? Your going off the deep end into the woods and over the mountain here. I'm willing to have a decent discussion / debate but not your starting to freak out.

There is nothing here that hasn't been gone over already for the past year or so. SE doesn't want RDM to have Cure V because it'll make them too good at healing vs White Mage, they also do not want SCH to have it for the same reason. The dev's are pretty much the closet thing this game has to a deity, you kinda can't argue with them. If you dislike their reasoning then cancel your account and go somewhere else.

You tried arguing with TP burn arguments back when RDM was prioritized over WHM for merits, this was done for MP reasons due to RDM being an energizer bunny back then. End Game fights were not 2~4 hour marathon fights, WHM didn't need to maintain an infinite supply of MP, only enough to last for one fight. Also you had BRD's and RDM's maintaining the WHM's MP pool, until groups found out that they could kick the WHM and replace them with a COR or another BRD for similiar results, even on HNMs. Players are what turned the game into melee zerg fests, not SE.

SE released TP burnable fodder mobs and more HNMs heavily resistant to magic, wtf did they think was going to happen, people were going to Magic burst Greater Colibri?

For exp and most mobs that didn't have dangerous AoE only turned into a 'melee fest' as you put it because they (players) finally realized SC+MB was and still is bad damage compared to simply WS at 100%.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Seriously what does that have to do with this? Your going off the deep end into the woods and over the mountain here. I'm willing to have a decent discussion / debate but not your starting to freak out.

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No, I am not freaking out. I am actually explaining in a reasonable and logical way just how and why whm was phased out pre-abyssea. The function of WHM at that time was not needed due to the build of the game and why rdm filled the role meant for whm.

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There is nothing here that hasn't been gone over already for the past year or so. SE doesn't want RDM to have Cure V because it'll make them too good at healing vs White Mage, they also do not want SCH to have it for the same reason. The dev's are pretty much the closet thing this game has to a deity, you kinda can't argue with them. If you dislike their reasoning then cancel your account and go somewhere else.

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I would hope you are kidding given what all whm has gained since 75 that is retro-active into as early as lvl 50 for whm. Rdm can no longer hope to compete with a whm due to passive traits, gear that complements barspells that not only surpass what rdm can give but up to 20, but also allows for straight out negation. Then you need to take into consideration what endgame content is all about compared to 75 endgame. Rdm can't handle these fights now even with cure V meaning you are blowing this way way way out of proportion to what the two jobs are capable side by side.

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You tried arguing with TP burn arguments back when RDM was prioritized over WHM for merits, this was done for MP reasons due to RDM being an energizer bunny back then. End Game fights were not 2~4 hour marathon fights, WHM didn't need to maintain an infinite supply of MP, only enough to last for one fight. Also you had BRD's and RDM's maintaining the WHM's MP pool, until groups found out that they could kick the WHM and replace them with a COR or another BRD for similiar results, even on HNMs. Players are what turned the game into melee zerg fests, not SE.

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No, I didn't argue actually, I produced facts as to why this became the norm and Whm became "obsolete." By your rationale, apparently players introduced cor into the game and made mobs easier to kill thus must have been the players making the content. Rather asinine to disregard the fact the SE was the ones who added the jobs, made the mobs, created all the content for the game then waited to see what players would do with it before making any further changes. Don't kid yourself, players adapt to the changes made to the game by the developers, thus it is the developers fault for making content and situations where a whm was less useful than a rdm for healing. This clearly shows that content is too easy meaning the requirement of certain jobs over a select few is unimportant. This is adaptability, which can further be seen when you look at today's endgame where a whm is in their rightful spot and a rdm can't hold a candle to it no matter how hard they try. One spell will not, and cannot, change this.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

No, I am not freaking out. I am actually explaining in a reasonable and logical way just how and why whm was phased out pre-abyssea. The function of WHM at that time was not needed due to the build of the game and why rdm filled the role meant for whm.



I would hope you are kidding given what all whm has gained since 75 that is retro-active into as early as lvl 50 for whm. Rdm can no longer hope to compete with a whm due to passive traits, gear that complements barspells that not only surpass what rdm can give but up to 20, but also allows for straight out negation. Then you need to take into consideration what endgame content is all about compared to 75 endgame. Rdm can't handle these fights now even with cure V meaning you are blowing this way way way out of proportion to what the two jobs are capable side by side.



No, I didn't argue actually, I produced facts as to why this became the norm and Whm became "obsolete." By your rationale, apparently players introduced cor into the game and made mobs easier to kill thus must have been the players making the content. Rather asinine to disregard the fact the SE was the ones who added the jobs, made the mobs, created all the content for the game then waited to see what players would do with it before making any further changes. Don't kid yourself, players adapt to the changes made to the game by the developers, thus it is the developers fault for making content and situations where a whm was less useful than a rdm for healing. This clearly shows that content is too easy meaning the requirement of certain jobs over a select few is unimportant. This is adaptability, which can further be seen when you look at today's endgame where a whm is in their rightful spot and a rdm can't hold a candle to it no matter how hard they try. One spell will not, and cannot, change this.

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You got blinders on so this discussion can't go any further. Short story, the numbers have already been run and the gap between RDM / SCH and WHM is very small. Many of the additions you speak of were added at 75 and they didn't make a lick of difference. I've already stated that it doesn't matter who's the best at healing only what is the minimum required to get a win. There is no argument that WHM cures the best / hardest and that a RDM with Cure V would just be spamming it using brute MP / healing. The argument is that the only thing needed for a win is Cure V, Erase, -na, Haste and some form of MP recovery. Everything else only makes it easier but leaders do not care how much stress / difficult the healer is under, they only want a win with the minimum required.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Their just hating. Lots of haters on here, been that way since 2004, gonna be that way till the game servers shutdown.

Their the people who the moment they see a RDM with a sword they will freak out and go nuts. Their under the belief that RDM's have a hidden job trait that gives the monster +5 levels, 200 defense 1000 attack and 300tp/tick regain if we hit it. Any attempt to say otherwise has them frothing at the mouth and calling all sorts of insults. And what really gets under their skins isn't just a RDM daring to melee, but one who actually succeeds at a hybrid play style. They go crazy, spew insults and go into a state of mental shock and denial. I've learned over nearly 8 years to just tune them out and mute whenever possible.

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We have ourselves a winning post here.

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Everything else only makes it easier but leaders do not care how much stress / difficult the healer is under, they only want a win with the minimum required.

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Quite possibly the oddest thing you've mentioned considering the current loot system were more = more chances that people get something, if anything at all. Also, I would trust a whm to cure a "stressful situation" long before a rdm/sch with access to cure V. Better mp effeciency, less requirement to use JA if AOE heal is required, and not to mention the procs they have that a rdm doesn't. Sorry, new endgame doesn't cater to "least requirement to win" mentality anymore.

Infact I'd invite and use a blm and whm any day over a rdm/sch just due to limited procs alone. One spell wouldn't change my mind one bit either. Oh, and this is coming from an LS lead perspective. Rdm doesn't even have half the spells both the jobs would bring to the table for procs, they also don't have many of the ws procs, no JA proc....not much of anything which makes it required or even half-way useful. The only way I'd have a rdm/sch for VWNM....is if that is the only job that member has to offer. That is how useless rdm is right now, one spell is not going to change this.

rdm/sch and cure V ga....

dont work with 4 why think work with V?
only 2 charges and recast for 1 charge is 2 min.?

i can cast 2 times, and then.....

SE, 3 charges please :)

Meh it's the same thing as always, people on forums are only looking to get the last word in. I really only care that something is being done about curing in this game. It's a step forward. Talking about white gate or how the game used to be, unless you are going to talk about how you liked something about it, isn't constructive at this point.

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Originally Posted by Lilia

rdm/sch and cure V ga....

dont work with 4 why think work with V?
only 2 charges and recast for 1 charge is 2 min.?

i can cast 2 times, and then.....

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Accession does work with Cure IV, also I assume they mean if SCH got it too, then it would work with Accession. Just like Regen IV didn't work when only WHM got it, now SCH gets it on the test server it works.

... i know cure 4 work with accession....

but you can 2 ga and then must wait 2 min. when you cast ssga you have only 1 for curaga

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Originally Posted by Lilia

... i know cure 4 work with accession....

but you can 2 ga and then must wait 2 min. when you cast ssga you have only 1 for curaga

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Yes? what's your point, I'm confused. It's rare you need Ga's even on WHM.

Was browsing around and saw the following interesting post. The bolded bit is literally what i hear ingame from ppl all the time(since Abyssea was added almost) and i think SE has it in their collective head that this would be what happens if RDM and SCH got Cure V. I've read expressed opinions to the contrary here, but i think that this is is a view that is held by way more ppl than some of you guys want to admit.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

You said it best Malamasa, the developers at SE for FFXI are one of the MOST clueless group that ever existed. They must have utter massive hate on ALL pet based jobs when it takes them years to fix the problems. I am glad the finally decided to do something for Pup after 5 YEARS!!! Beastmaster is finally good and competent now. But SMN and DRG still gets no love whatsoever, even if the updates should be VERY minor and it won't really break the game.

Please stop adjusting WHM... or giving that particular job more spells from other jobs... I long for the day when WHM is dead weight and not needed and when you can invite other jobs in their place like SCH and RDM.

RDM, SCH, DRK, RNG, COR and PLD should be their TOP priorities now along with SMN and DRG. At least they are working on SCH. Give Rdm and Sch their Cure V and call it a day please. The rest of Aby Elite jobs should be left untouched for awhile... I feel like they have very little clue on how to do job balancing on certain jobs but greatly favor certain jobs (yes thank you, WAR, MNK and NIN is awesome already - leave these jobs alone).

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Was from this thread.

Personally i don't care one way or the other; but i just got to thinking if sentiments like this have made their way to SE and influenced their thinking on this issue. Or if they possibly came to a similar conclusion all on their own.

Also what struck me was how the bolded bit just kinda jumped out of nowhere. That thread was about a totally different issue, then BLAM->"WHM can suck it!!!!11111" Like i said, interetesting.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Yes? what's your point, I'm confused. It's rare you need Ga's even on WHM.

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You must not do Voidwatch much.

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Originally Posted by Spiritreaver

Was browsing around and saw the following interesting post. The bolded bit is literally what i hear ingame from ppl all the time(since Abyssea was added almost) and i think SE has it in their collective head that this would be what happens if RDM and SCH got Cure V. I've read expressed opinions to the contrary here, but i think that this is is a view that is held by way more ppl than some of you guys want to admit.



Was from this thread.

Personally i don't care one way or the other; but i just got to thinking if sentiments like this have made their way to SE and influenced their thinking on this issue. Or if they possibly came to a similar conclusion all on their own.

Also what struck me was how the bolded bit just kinda jumped out of nowhere. That thread was about a totally different issue, then BLAM->"WHM can suck it!!!!11111" Like i said, interetesting.

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The only place RDM or SCH would get into with Cure V is Abyssea, and that's fast becoming old news.... Turning into nothing more than an EXP zone.