Cure V

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Cure V and tier V nukes are not the same. Tier V nukes are comparable to Cure VI.

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Wait what? Feel free to laugh at me because I don't give a damn if you do, but do you mean -aja nukes aren't the equivalent of Cure VI and Curagas already? >_>

I think he was talking in terms of numbers, Tier III Nukes roughly have comparable numbers with Cure IV, in a sense Tier V nukes would probably measure up to Cure VI just based on numbers alone.

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

Wait what? Feel free to laugh at me because I don't give a damn if you do, but do you mean Tier 2 Ancient Magic isn't the equivalent of Cure VI already? >_>

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You mean they are both junk? I guess from that sense that is correct. Scholar too me is more the worry than red mage for Cure V. I would probably be ok with Red Mage having cure 5, mainly because having both red mage and white mage I know what a weak group healer red mage is. It's horrible to heal AOE damage on Red Mage. Scholar is right on the cusp of being overpowered though, always has been. If scholar had T5 nukes taken from them I would support them getting Cure 5, but not as is. Therein lies another problem, once a spell is given, it won't be taken away. Why SE is hesitating on giving Cure 5 out.

Cure 5 and Flash would like a word with you about spells not being taken away.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Cure 5 and Flash would like a word with you about spells not being taken away.

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How long ago did that happen? Sounds good though, time to start my drive to have T5 nukes taken from scholar. LOL

I'd like to have flash back... or something along the same style of potency to reduce the damage of a TP attack.

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Originally Posted by Swords

I think he was talking in terms of numbers, Tier III Nukes roughly have comparable numbers with Cure IV, in a sense Tier V nukes would probably measure up to Cure VI just based on numbers alone.

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I figured as much, but the advantage BLMs and WHMs would still have are Aga's, -ja nukes and Cure VI. While Minimal, it still helps to edge out the power RDM would have with Tier 5 nukes (especially since viable RDM Melee being on par with BLU's Melee capabilities will apparently never see the light of day according to Square).

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Originally Posted by Siiri

You mean they are both junk? I guess from that sense that is correct. Scholar too me is more the worry than red mage for Cure V. I would probably be ok with Red Mage having cure 5, mainly because having both red mage and white mage I know what a weak group healer red mage is. It's horrible to heal AOE damage on Red Mage. Scholar is right on the cusp of being overpowered though, always has been. If scholar had T5 nukes taken from them I would support them getting Cure 5, but not as is. Therein lies another problem, once a spell is given, it won't be taken away. Why SE is hesitating on giving Cure 5 out.

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I didn't mean Ancient Magic, I meant -ja spells. Guess you beat me to the punch though. And Cure VI being junk in Abyssea? I haven't heard that one before...no, seriously, I haven't. With high-HP DDs and near-one-shot TP Moves coming around, how would it be?

If Cure V is given to RDM, then something of equal ridicule should have to be given as well to balance it out, right? ;\

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

something of equal ridicule would have to be given as well to balance it out, right? ;\

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Hmmm... I see an announcement coming from camate.

"The dev team has decided to give Red Mages the ability to learn Cure V. However, The Red mage Version will be self target only. Red Mages Rejoice!"

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Hmmm... I see an announcement coming from camate.

"The dev team has decided to give Red Mages the ability to learn Cure V. However, The Red mage Version will be self target only. Red Mages Rejoice!"

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LMFAO. I just spat my water out reading that.

Cure VI is fine in abyssea, you are correct there. I think it needs to be redone outside to make it viable to be used though.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Cure VI is fine in abyssea, you are correct there. I think it needs to be redone outside to make it viable to be used though.

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Tweak it so its potency is also dependent on 75% of the target's Max HP to prevent overcuring, perhaps? My opinion on Cure VI is that it's supposed to be an emergency cure to prevent the target from dying the moment they hit Red HP.

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Tweak it so its potency is dependent on a high percentage of the target's Max HP, perhaps?

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That wouldn't work. Anything that would be remotely useful outside Abyssea and could still cure more than Cure V would be ludicrously overpowered inside Abyssea. Anything balanced for inside Abyssea would be pathetically weak outside Abyssea.

EG: Mnk inside Abyssea with 3600 HP. 2/3 of his HP would be 2400 HP cured; quite potent. Now cure the nin outside Abyssea with 1200 HP for 2/3 of his max HP: 800. Not worth the effort.

Hmmm, good point...

Cure VI is useful in the situations where you need heavy healing abyssea and voidwatch. Abyssea obviously you aren't running out of mp. Voidwatch also allows you to have plenty of mp conservation. Up to 7 tic gear refresh, /sch or /rdm, +2 pants, and 2x Lucid Ether II / Mana Powder (If you have your periapts) that get recharged everytime you proc the nm. Don't get me wrong I want cure VI's mp cost lowered and they could even throw in another bonus such as enhanced cureskin +15%. However Currently Cure VI is a nice addition when you need to do heavy healing.

Yeah, I agree there needs to be an extra perk to using Cure VI to be worth using. I'm almost inclined to say a defense bonus of some sort.

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

Wait what? Feel free to laugh at me because I don't give a damn if you do, but do you mean -aja nukes aren't the equivalent of Cure VI and Curagas already? >_>

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Use your loaf.

Numbers aside in terms of how they work and how they've been placed.

Cure = (no nuke)
Cure II = (nuke tier I)
Cure III = (nuke tier II)
Cure IV = (nuke tier III)
Cure V = (nuke tier IV)
Cure VI = (nuke tier V)

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Originally Posted by Siiri

How long ago did that happen? Sounds good though, time to start my drive to have T5 nukes taken from scholar. LOL

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He's being dishonest.

RDM was on the scroll in name only, the game's level wasn't high enough for RDM to actually use the scroll. When RoTZ was released they upped the level cap and removed RDM from the scroll. No RDM has ever actually learned Flash / Cure V / Diaga II. SE didn't "take them away" they prevented us from getting them in the first place.

Being on a scroll and being taken off said scroll is what I call spells being taken away, I don't know why your definition is so different.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Use your loaf.

Numbers aside in terms of how they work and how they've been placed.

Cure = (no nuke)
Cure II = (nuke tier I)
Cure III = (nuke tier II)
Cure IV = (nuke tier III)
Cure V = (nuke tier IV)
Cure VI = (nuke tier V)

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Sure, from a listing standpoint.

Do Healing-to-Damage though, and it should look like this:

Cure = (nuke tier 1)
Cure II = (nuke tier II)
Cure III = (nuke tier III)
Cure IV = (nuke tier IV)
Cure V = (nuke tier V)
Cure VI = Comet

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

Sure, from a listing standpoint.

Do Healing-to-Damage though, and it should look like this:

Cure = (nuke tier 1)
Cure II = (nuke tier II)
Cure III = (nuke tier III)
Cure IV = (nuke tier IV)
Cure V = (nuke tier V)
Cure VI = Comet

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It's not really though, tier I nukes are stronger than Cure by quite a bit.

Cures soft cap far too quickly.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

It's not really though, tier I nukes are stronger than Cure by quite a bit.

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Yes, tier 1's are stronger than cure. But when comparing the enemy's HP to yours, it should make sense looking at it that way, I hope.

Either way, before this gets into headache territory, I'm only saying that I'm not going to accept RDM getting Cure 5 without getting something else that keeps it from being a secondary solo white mage.

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

Yes, tier 1's are stronger than cure. But when comparing the enemy's HP to yours, it should make sense looking at it that way, I hope.

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This doesn't reduce the fact that Cure IV is still not enough, not unless they want to increase the soft-cap.

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I actually don't think RDM nuking is that bad, it's come quite a long way recently.

OFF TOPIC: Has anyone checked if RDM got MDB III this update, they should have to fall in like with MAB III at 90, I wouldn't know how to check it.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

I actually don't think RDM nuking is that bad, it's come quite a long way recently.

OFF TOPIC: Has anyone checked if RDM got MDB III this update, they should have to fall in like with MAB III at 90, I wouldn't know how to check it.

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Yeah, but who invites a RDM to nuke, though? :|

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

Yeah, but who invites a RDM to nuke, though? :|

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Too true! :(

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Should probably not invite SCH's who are horrible at FFXI.

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SCH serves no real purpose for me. Ive already beaten all of voidwatch and cleared everything with full caps in a timely fashion. At first I always made sure to bring a SCH but over time, it got less and less useful. I bring 3 BLMs and they can cover mulitple magic procs at once where the SCH can only do T1-5 and a Helix, a BLM can do all that, plus ja, ga 1-3 and AM 1-2.

Also anytime we proc a red, we have all the DDs go in and zerg which helps build lights pretty quickly which is even less of a reason for SCH.

Assuming your not abusing SCH's for Embrava to zerg it down faster during that time.

Bring a brd?

Yeah its great. Once every 2 hours. So I can use it exactly for one fight. Usually do 3-4x of each NM and up to 3 different NMs. While I dont under estimate the power of Embrava, its not like im just doing one fight then its done.

Embrava can last upwards of 15ish minutes, that's pretty boss.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Embrava can last upwards of 15ish minutes, that's pretty boss.

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True.

And its still only good for one fight. I guess maybe 2 if you use it and it carries over before you pop again.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

Yeah its great. Once every 2 hours. So I can use it exactly for one fight. Usually do 3-4x of each NM and up to 3 different NMs. While I dont under estimate the power of Embrava, its not like im just doing one fight then its done.

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Fun in Abyssea if you have capped lights.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Being on a scroll and being taken off said scroll is what I call spells being taken away, I don't know why your definition is so different.

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Did you have "Cure V" or "Flash" in your cast-able spells list ever? Did one day you wake up after an update and find it gone?

That is the definition of take away, it means to remove something you could do.

SE didn't take away any spells from RDM, they simply didn't give them to RDM in the first place. Which is why WHM wasn't on the "addle" scroll when it was created, even though SE knew they were going to give it to them and the precise level they would do it at.

This goes to one of the lessons learned from the skinner experiments. Take two groups of rats and put them in a skinner box. The first group have drop food pellets at a rate of one per min. The second group have food pellets drop at a rate of once per 5 min.

After awhile, change the first groups drop rate to once per 5 min. Observe the behavioral changes. The first group gets irate, angry and will attack each other. The second group is calm and sedate. Both groups are getting the same food rate of once per 5 min. The only difference is that the first group got to experience a greater sense of reward.

The conclusion was reduction of reward is considered to be a hostile action by the recipients. They believe you are "taking" something from them, even when it wasn't theirs to begin with.

Next experiment involved two birds in a cage. First bird could easily hit the level and get a food pellet. Second bird had it's feet tied to a pole and was unable to get to the food pellets. After awhile the mechanism to drop the food pellets was turned off. Guess what happened? The first bird got irate and started attacking the second bird who's feet were tied down.

The conclusion was that the reduction of reward not only is a hostile action, but that the recipients will attack the nearest recognizable object as the source of the problem. The first bird got angry at the second because it's reward was removed, even when the second bird wasn't receiving any of the reward.

Seriously, as much as I hate how MMO's use Skinner's experiments to model their game reward mechanisms, most of this experiments explain much of the social behavior present in these video games. And here we thought ourselves better then animals.

If I say 'taken off the scroll of' will that make you feel better? I'm sorry my definition of the phrase 'take away' includes the word remove - wait so does yours, what are you arguing about? Rdm was on the scrolls, Rdm was taken off the scrolls - said spells on the scrolls were taken away from Rdm. You're arguing semantics at this point as far as I'm concerned.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

If I say 'taken off the scroll of' will that make you feel better? I'm sorry my definition of the phrase 'take away' includes the word remove - wait so does yours, what are you arguing about? Rdm was on the scrolls, Rdm was taken off the scrolls - said spells on the scrolls were taken away from Rdm. You're arguing semantics at this point as far as I'm concerned.

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In that case, WHM wants its native Refresh at 61 back too.

It can have it. The most it'll do is have them /blm more often, and they do that anyway if they need stun from the whm.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

If I say 'taken off the scroll of' will that make you feel better? I'm sorry my definition of the phrase 'take away' includes the word remove - wait so does yours, what are you arguing about? Rdm was on the scrolls, Rdm was taken off the scrolls - said spells on the scrolls were taken away from Rdm. You're arguing semantics at this point as far as I'm concerned.

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Now your back tracking.

Your phrasing was such that you presented your argument as SE removing from RDM a capability it had possessed. You used "take away" in a negative meaning as in "they stole it from RDM". This is dishonest as SE never stole anything. RDM was never able to cast those spells, SE was originally planning it but decided against it. The only thing that changed was SE's intentions.

Or would you like to say SE "took away" Fire VII and Firaga VI from BLM. They were both on scrolls, those scrolls existed in the games item database on the server. SE never had them drop from any monster because we level reached levels 100+, similar to how RDM couldn't learn Cure V / Flash due to it not being high enough to use the scroll. Heck there were all sorts of things in the .dats that never materialized in the game. Should we go around stating how SE "took away" all those spells / abilities?

Your argument boiled down to you feeling bad that SE Santa didn't' give you what you wanted for Christmas. Now stop trying to play semantics with me, your no where good enough for that.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Rdm was on the scrolls for the spells, Rdm was taken off the scrolls for the spells - said spells on the scrolls were taken away from Rdm. You're arguing semantics at this point.

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I really can't make it any simpler than this for you.

The response was to the statement - 'spells aren't taken away'

Me: 2 spells have been taken away in the past.

You: that's not true, they weren't taken away, Rdm was removed from being able to learn the spells.

Me: Yea, that's called being taken away.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

I really can't make it any simpler than this for you.

The response was to the statement - 'spells aren't taken away'

Me: 2 spells have been taken away in the past.

You: that's not true, they weren't taken away, Rdm was removed from being able to learn the spells.

Me: Yea, that's called being taken away.

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The poster is clearly just after being rude and stroking his ego, I wouldn't bother.

I've mentioned it before: RDM and SCH are NOT going to get Cure V. They will get Curasa instead. WHM will get it and Curaja (aoe version). I only hope it's added at an earlier level then 96...

Would be nice if someone from SE would actually come in and lift the sheets on this though...