The debate-free Poll.

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Originally Posted by Septimus

I can't believe that I am letting myself be pulled into this quagmire.

No, stating that RDM should get no melee adjustments means just that, that the melee stays where it is. RDM melee is and always will be a toy. It is something that is done on trash mobs because if you are fighting a real mob you have other things that you should be doing.

I don't know how many of you guys remember this or were playing back then, but a while back there was a bug after an update that caused melee damage to no longer have a randomized factor. Meaning that you always hit for the same amount of damage, so it was very easy to test to see if your attack was capped against a monster's defense. During this bug I went to Beaucedine Glacier for some reason or another, and found out to my horror that my melee damage as a 75 RDM was not capped against the tigers and goblins there, mobs that were 30+ levels under me. That was the exact moment that I became disenchanted with RDM melee.

I know someone is going to retort with "your melee gear must have sucked", (I don't think that I wore any because I hadn't been expecting to melee) but the point is that our base attack is so low that it wasn't capped against level 30-40 mobs at 75. This is not something that is worthwhile. A RDM is never going to get a party invitation because of a melee buff, we need buffs for enfeebling and enhancing to be a useful job again.

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Well, I don't know what kind of defense Beauc mobs would have, but I'd venture a guess you were floating around 300 ATK or less if you weren't using melee gear. If they have more than 150 DEF, I'm not surprised you saw what you saw. Forget exact numbers, but a WAR would probably have been hovering around 430 before Berserk, give or take some GA merits. By default, we know two-handers will have more ATK/ACC. Of course, I also could've broken 400 ATK on RDM in gear at 75, but wearing such gear basically meant no Haste, and swords are a different beast than great axes.

Now, let's take a gander at Enspells. How much ATK would you need to boost a hit by 27 points of damage? This should arguably be where RDM is picking up the slack on their damage, but the scaling needs to be a bit better with resist issues going away. The fact RDM is rather limited to mediocre physical WS with their mediocre ATK that Enspells don't help is one of those cumulative issues I hinted at where just wanting to play the role wasn't enough. It outright requires attention from SE to veer things away from solo status or telling people the only time they're allowed to enjoy a job is when fighting trash.

As is, we're one of the best suited jobs for magical WS, though the current magical WS aren't exactly known for their big numbers. Even with Sanguine Blade, breaking 1k isn't terribly impressive if others are doing 2.5k+ (I'm trying to look at this from an outside Abyssea perspective, mind you). I'd actually like a variable elemental WS between Vorpal and CDC (hopefully closer to CDC) that adopts an element and SC properties based on your active enspell. Suddenly the ATK deficiency isn't so bad and that gear you're probably carrying for nukes can double as a WS set.

This still won't put RDM on par with Ukon WARs, but as others have said, that's not really what we're seeking. We still know the debuffs, buffs, nukes, and cures exist and that MP is finite in regards to GG's strawman scenario. You'll want to be giving the RDM Marches and such if they're swinging, and obviously won't have Idle/Refresh gear on if engaged. So it's just Refresh II and Convert sustaining doling out debuffs, the occasional cure, and maybe an MB or two.

Rather bluntly, hybrid jobs pre-BLU lacked the tools to be hybrids (still do, really), and the only reason BLU does as well as it does is because they got their own special system that discouraged staff swapping, gave them access to various traits regardless of sub, were certainly geared better, and got some nifty things where, mix-and-match, "specialists" would like to have in their toolbox. I'd love a Dream Flower equivalent on RDM or Charged Whisker on BLM.

Either way, this isn't so much me trying to "drag you in" as you put it, but more in that solutions aren't as impossible as some might want us to believe while still leaving room for more mage-y things that, by default, already have their own perks like safety at range, the ability to regenerate more MP more quickly, and potency advantages. And even if melee integration was somehow tied to new, potent enfeebles (or even enhancing current ones), would you not agree that higher risk should yield higher reward? Such is a glimpse at the utility angle beyond the damage aspect.

Not stepping in to debate, just saying, in my current ws gear, my redmage at 90 outside abyssea has:

RDM/NIN (Sword)
STR: 83+53 (8 str merits)
DEX: 79+15
VIT: 75+10
AGI: 76+2
INT: 80+5
MND: 76+5
CHR: 74+5
HP: 1239
MP: 741(12 mp merits)
ACC: +22
ATT: ~540
DEF: 285
DA: 8%

(numbers adjusted because of substituting minuet for brutal ear)
Dunno how that is compared to another light DD like dnc or nin or thf, but at the time when i wrote that info down, my dark knight was less than 80 more attack over that (more now due to recent gear upgrades such as +2 gear)

Well in the past it was our acc that had issues not our attack. Other jobs had sufficient acc that they could go the haste + meat route, where as we were stuck with haste + sushi. Then SE invented this awesome thing called Pizza / Pizza +1. Gives us acc and attack, usually enough acc to cap hit rate and then some along with some attack with it. Still not as good as the meat eaters but makes it more then worth while.

At 75 I was TPing in around 350~380 attack, BLU was right at 398/400, and WAR with swords (just for comparison) was around 420~435 depending on gear. Things like hauby and kitty pants were really amazing at 75. Now at 90~95 things are a bit different. Once I get done leveling BLM (in pt now) I'll post actual numbers on my RDM.

CS now tack on +20 STR from Gain-STR (and I'm elvann btw). And next level 25 from Gain-DEX / STR / INT / MND.

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Originally Posted by saevel

SCH can hit the same Slow 1 cap and aoe it, aoe sleep and the rest.

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Wut tenletters

So many people in this thread either just do not understand Scholar, or do not understand that having Black Magic and White Magic together does not an equivalent class make.

Protip: The biggest difference between Rdm and Sch is not a Sword. Nor, before it's brought up again, is it Slow2, Dia 3, or any spell in our library.

ok TP gear,
95 RDM/NIN
HP: 1416
MP: 711 (12/12MP)

STR 96+35 (8/8 merits)
DEX 81+15
VIT 83
AGI 75+10
INT 78+5
MND 85+5
CHR 78+5
Total Attack: 527
Total Accuracy: 445
Sword: 391 (8/8 Merits + 5 from ear)
DW: 30%
Haste: 24%
DA: +10 then +13 (Temper) for +23 total
TA: +2
Store TP: +11-3
Subtle Blow: +5
Magic Accuracy: +8 from Chakram
Crit Hit Rate: +5% (Neck)
Damage Taken: +10% (Neck)

Acc: +19 -8 +15 (Composure)
Atk: +63
Some evasion down from head and movement speed down from hands and some +enmity from belt.

+27 Enspells, +20 Gain-STR +12.5~13 Temper and Composure as self buffs.
Food of choice is either Pizza+1 for VT or higher, or Bison Steak for T or lower mobs.

WS set (CDC)
Attack: 555

STR: 96+35
DEX: 81+45
Lots more acc due to changing into Tumbler trunks andK.hachimaki head (Sword+5 acc+12). After Maat's Cap for WS piece.

*Note*
I carry tools for the NI spells for -earth resist, -thunder resist and -ice resist. Just incase I need the extra m.acc for those respective spells, its -30 resist (+30 acc) and ultra fast casting.

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Originally Posted by saevel

@Sept,

Go troll else where. There is no such thing as "base attack" for a job, its skill + STR/2 + JT + gear. Meaning if a WAR wears mage gear and use's H2H or a staff then their gonna have "crap base attack".

RDM is B in swords, BLU is A-, skills have all gone up at the same rate post 75. 269-250 = 19, WAR is ~exactly~ the same skill as us. BLU has less base STR, it's spells put them at right about our level if not 1~6 points higher. WAR is about 5 points higher depending on level (@95 the stat gap is getting smaller). At 75 my RDM was sitting on the same attack as a BLU. Since then BLU's have gotten better TP gear and RDM hasn't got much better so they've pulled ahead but not by much.

It's WAR's JT's that give it insane attack growth, Berserk is just that good.

And one final note on that subject.
Gain-STR is giving me +20 STR (+10 attack), and Temper seems to be 12~13% DA at the same enhancing magic. So yeah our melee capabilities aren't exactly meager.

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Just because someone disagrees with you, it does not mean that he/she is trolling, it may mean that he/she just disagrees with you.

I could go into a whole debate about base attack (what I mean is the number based off of your skill and STR without any equipment), but the point is that it takes more than just attack to make a damage dealer. Yes, BLU and RDM can have similar attack, but attack doesn't modify the BLU's main source of damage: spells. A WAR has exactly the same sword skill as a RDM, but the WAR is still going to wipe the floor with a RDM's melee, not to mention that the WAR's Great Axe skill is significantly higher, on top of all of the melee traits and job abilities that WAR has. RDM melee is simply a toy, it is never going to be a serious part of the job, and it is not going to make the job useful in end-game situations. RDM desperately needs improvements in enfeebling and enhancing to be wanted for any fight that matters. Maybe once that is addressed then we could get something for melee, but it must always be remembered that RDM melee is, was, and will forever be just a toy compared to heavy DD jobs.

So, what kind of current situation(s) are we looking at that demands a SCH flip-flop between Arts schizophrenically and in turn be a lesser choice than RDM?

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Originally Posted by Seriha

So, what kind of current situation(s) are we looking at that demands a SCH flip-flop between Arts schizophrenically and in turn be a lesser choice than RDM?

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None, already been over this with others. Most SCH's will just cast in the wrong arts and eat the penalty if they only need to cats one spell from the opposing type. A SCH in a "support" role would just stay in LA+AW as /RDM and go about their business. With more strategems and now a duration strategem they can aoe Enspells / Phalanx / Stoneskin to their hearts content. Debuff the mob with Slow / Para (if its not resistant) and Dia II. Throw out a Dispel / Sleep if its needed, but honestly the BLM's and BRDs will be handling most sleeps. Cure IV spam and even aoe Cure IV spam if needed.

Really it's everything RDM/SCH can do and more. Only thing it's missing is Refresh II and Dia III. If their needed for haste cause a WHM's not covering it they could just go /WHM and skip the AW strategem requirement. Their native sublimation makes refresh a non-issue so the spell is really just for others if they need it.

I REALLY tried to find situations where you couldn't just replace the RDM with a SCH or a WHM and could only find one. Saboteur + Dia III right before a boss zerg. But with Embrava you want a SCH anyway and between the two, Embrava beats out Sab Dia III. Best choice would be to use BRD x 2, SCH, RDM and SMN together for zergs.

Keep whm in pt > have rdm sabo dia 3 > drop rdm > never have sch in pt because they can embrava outside pt.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Keep whm in pt > have rdm sabo dia 3 > drop rdm > never have sch in pt because they can embrava outside pt.

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scary ruthless.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Stated my preference right there crimson. We should get updates to ALL our components.

And yes a SCH/RDM is identical to if not better then a RDM in all ways except,

Refresh II
Dia III

They have better healing, better party support, better nuking, and better crowd control / enfeebling. The only thing left to RDM is it's melee capacity, which while being solid is sorely lacking in the gear department. WS's are fixed via CDC, but I can't expect every RDM to have an almace.

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Actually the complete opposite, RDM/SCH is better than SCH in every way because the only things that matter are refresh2, haste and debuffs.

In zerg situations, sure, SCH is superior, but what exactly do we zerg besides AV/DL again?

Once SCH can /rdm and gets access to haste, SCH will just be worse than a RDM/SCH always.

SCH needs another set of unique amazing stratagems like they had at 75(Manifestation and accession), these were the two things making SCH unique and wanted.

Actually having more tiers of nukes is helping a lot though, a few more buffs to it's light arts and tier2 weather/tier2 hellixes and SCH will destroy RDM in usefulness and fun :D

The irony in this is that I don't disagree, I just tend to go into detail...

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Originally Posted by saevel

Umm RDM has the following..

Refresh II
Dia III

and ... that's it.

For "enfeebles" Slow II is 5% stronger then Slow 1, they both cap at dMND=75. Para II is so unreliable, that there still isn't hard numbers on it's effects, years after it's creation. Elegy is 50% Slow cap, no merits required. SCH can hit the same Slow 1 cap and aoe it, aoe sleep and the rest. BLMs have had sleepga II for ages along with BRD and BLU.

So honestly, I have yet to see where this "supporting" the party is coming form. What exactly are you doing? Casting Haste / Refresh / Cure IV on everyone? Because every time I hear "supporting" it's always in relation to those three spells, something a WHM/RDM can do and do better. A SCH/RDM can do all but haste, a SCH/WHM can do haste and at 99 a SCH/RDM completely replaces us.

So umm, yeah... supporting ... got it ... way to leach a spot.

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Yet at earlier levels RDM did shine more in the "support" department, I don't think that can be argued. RDM's ability to support the party "more" compared to other jobs has declined more and more ever since the level cap increases from 75 IMO.

1) That is EXACTLY what I said. RDM has Refresh II and group 2 merits. That's it. My post said RDM needs more party support from spells than that.

2) SCH cannot AoE Slow. Enfeebles are only AoE'able through Manifestation, and they have to be Black Magic.

3) WHM DESTROYS RDM in party support right now, /RDM or not. There's a reason my post pretty much said "I want RDM to be USEFUL as a whole." and therefore every aspect of our job needs to be looked into.

WHM gets stronger enhancing magic than RDM (barspells are a PRIME example, WHM/SCH destroys any other job combination using barspells, and that doesn't even factor WHM's ability to merit barspell efficiency). My WHM can provide 170 resistance to an element. I wish my RDM was able to do that. WHM even gains the Boost- spells, something I would've rather seen go to RDM. I can see it now, people wanting my WHM to Boost-STR...

Most jobs are capable of doing similar, if not stronger, enfeebles (BRD w/Elegy like you said, and since they've likely got a stronger Addle too). At least Elegy and Slow stack.

4) Saboteur was a step in attempting to fix Red Mage's enfeebling ability to make it shine more IMO, but more needs to be done, I couldn't agree more with that. It's a shame really, the job with the highest Enfeebling Magic having one of their primary enfeebles outperformed by a Bard song, and jobs like BLM getting Sleepga I/II, whereas RDM had to sub BLM or SCH to gain AoE sleep.

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Originally Posted by saevel

And the really funny thing about "supporting" the party, you can do it just as easily /NIN as you can /WHM with a staff on your back. Thanks to these things called gear macros. <Waiting for the staff argument to come in>

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And counterpoint #5 to previous quote) When people actually had to earn EXP to get 75, RDM did offer more to a general party than most mages. That's where the "supporting" came from. WHM shined as a healer, BLM shined as a nuker, RDM was capable of doing both fairly well and offering Convert/Refresh to last longer compared to those jobs. I also had to main heal 95% of my parties especially after level 40 - situations where I NEVER had time to wield a sword, let alone use /NIN to gimp my healing ability just to wield a couple swords.

Obviously, things change. The old days where the level cap were 75 are long-gone, and that's probably why this thread even exists to begin with, because Red Mage NEEDS things to make it useful again. As things are, RDM barely even offers anything to a party through "support" that other jobs can do just as well, if not better... it's gotten so bad that I know I'm not offering much on RDM main anymore in the back-line that's unique to the job, yet that is also the most likely case for future additions to affect the RDM job in an end-game situation.

RDM can obviously melee better now than it's ever been capable of. Gain-STR, Chant du Cygne (which is seriously a huge boost to sword's offensive ability, and if I don't have that, or at least Vorpal Blade, I don't see the point in trying in this day and age, because those are decent steps to improving RDM's melee ability), Temper, etc. Getting the WS issue fixed is the first step. Getting the gear for it is the other step. If I want to /NIN and melee, one'd better believe I'll take the necessary steps first, otherwise it could end up being a hindrance.

But owell /wall of text discussion off. I've said all I intend to say in this thread, and re-literate this point: I do hope RDM gets stuff to make it useful as a whole again, because ever since they announced the level cap increase from 75+ onward, RDM has gotten less and less spell/"support" wise compared to other mages and other mage jobs have only gained more. Sure, RDM got the expected Tier IV nukes, Addle (and then WHM+BRD got it), Raise II (yawn worthy imo), Refresh II due to other jobs gaining Refresh from /RDM, Saboteur (the first hopeful thing I saw since the level cap increases), and now the mini-Chainspell JA at 95 (which is cute) and Temper (to aid in RDM's melee endeavors). All I can say is I hope further additions change things big time, because I barely take RDM gear out of my safe/locker/satchel/sack outside of leveling it or messing around because I miss using the job.

Not to mention when I want to melee, I simply gear up my Caladbolg DRK and go to town.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Elegy is 50% Slow cap, no merits required. SCH can hit the same Slow 1 cap and aoe it

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Elegy stacks with slow.

Sch's slow is terrible. If you can honestly say it's equal then you dont deserve to call yourself a Red Mage. Sch caps it's Slow at 29.3% Slow. Rdm caps Slow at 32.2% (AF3+2 Body says hi). With Saboteur it's 70.8% Slow (AF3+2 hands say hi). A 5/5 Slow II with AF3+2 body and hands with Saboteur caps at 103% Slow. That's more than a soul voice elegy.

Yeah, Rdm slow sucks.

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[Seperate Post, below is not a reply to Saevel]
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ITT: melee fans are mad because they think everyone voted "no" in the poll because they are against them, or to spite them.
I suggest you read my last post. We say no because we don't want the poll mis-interpreted as "we want melee more than, or instead of mage buffs". How many times will this needed to be pointed out? I bolded it and stated it at least three times in my last post, yet you cry and continue to say everyone is against you?

You know, I know, and every non-retarded RDM knows that there is a time and a place for melee. Difficult HNMs with dangerous TP moves is not the time to melee. But you already knew that. Any good Rdm, whether they like melee or not, knows when is an acceptable time to melee. Voidwatch, Rani, Raja, Azdaja, and such are not those times. Walk of echoes (basic mobs, not boss), Dynamis, Campaign, and other such casual content is fine.
There is nothing wrong with meleeing on acceptable content. Rdm melee gets stigma because you get idiots running around with Almace/Some other sword and full mage gear. There will always be stigma, get over it.

Yes, there are issues with Rdm melee. Many of them have been covered. Many of them have been covered repeatedly.
Red Mages who come to these forums and try to shut all the big melee fans up are not doing it to spite you. They are doing it for the same reason as replying "no" in this poll: We are scared of mis-interpretation. We are scared if SE reps come in and see nothing but the same Melee issues thrown over and over in the majority of topics, that they will think Rdms concider melee a bigger issue than our magic side, and they will focus 90% on melee upgrades and neglect our spellcasting side.

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Originally Posted by Buffy

Melee RDM should die in a fire.

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Nope, no spite in that comment at all, no sir.

Speak for yourself Noodles. It's really hard to believe what you say when everybody around you is making loaded comments like that.

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Sch's slow is terrible. If you can honestly say it's equal then you dont deserve to call yourself a Red Mage. Sch caps it's Slow at 29.3% Slow. Rdm caps Slow at 32.2% (AF3+2 Body says hi). With Saboteur it's 70.8% Slow (AF3+2 hands say hi). A 5/5 Slow II with AF3+2 body and hands with Saboteur caps at 103% Slow. That's more than a soul voice elegy.

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And this is where you show you've never actually used RDM in a NM fight, the only location enfeebles matter.

SE nerfed Saboteur hardcore, its only 25~50% effective vs anything that's ITG. At most its 40% slow effect or 48% slow II effect. Also slow suffers from diminishing returns due to the haste formula. 100/129 = 0.77.5 (29% slow for a 22% effect), 100/140 = 71.4% (40% slow for a 28% effect). Even stacking with a BRD's 50% elegy your only looking at a 98% slow, 100/198 = 0.505, 50.5% effect. This effect is only present on the NM's melee swings, their TP / spells are completely unaffected. And BTW it's their tp moves and spells that will kill you, PLD's laugh at melee hits. Seriously we do. On top of this, we have to use a JA just to hit those numbers, a BRD just sings a song. And no a SCH has the exact same Slow as us, its just dMND that determines the power. Our enfeebles are absolutely crap (except Dia III) on NM's due to SE's design. No amount of gear will get around their design.

@Fedjan,

I agree with everything you said. The anti-melee-rdm stigma comes from 2003 / 2004 era parties where a RDM was invited to refresh the WHM / BLM / PLD, hence the refresh-whore nick name. Haste / Cure / Enfeebles were an after thought. You invited the WHM for healer, the BLM for damage, the PLD for tanking, then you chose between a RDM or a BRD for refresh (BRD's melee buffs were mostly ignored at that time) and some random DD's to form a SC. You fought ridiculously hard mobs for slow XP gain but big numbers. Later when we discovered that melee's hitting weaker mobs were better XP, parties looked for ways to fit in more melees. First to go where the BLMs because they all mana-burned anyway, then it was the WHM as it was figured a RDM was "good enough" healing and they had convert / refresh / haste / cure IV, the only things a PT wanted. Then the power of BRD buffs were discovered and that cemented RDM forever as the PT cure and haste dispenser. It was the party mechanics that forced RDM into the healing role, not SE.

Now we're in abyssea XP era, where you no longer have to fit as much as possible in six party slots of people in the same level range. Now you can invite anyone and get great XP. RDM no longer is forced to spam inefficient cures and go through mind numbing cycles. HNM though hasn't changed too much though. NM's have always been extremely resistant to enfeebles. We were never brought to HNM for "enfeebling", we were there for "Refresh" on the healers, and occasionally a Cure IV. About our only special situation was RDM/DRK CSS'ing dangerous mobs during their 2hr's or during a zerg. Let's not kid ourselves, we were NEVER masters of enfeebling nor alliance support. We were just a class with mediocre healing magic, mediocre elemental magic, mediocre enfeebling magic and mediocre melee skills, buffing is non-existent as two spells don't a buffer make. Outside of a few solo's that abused the games pathing AI and poor NM design (bind / grav / dot / nuke solos) we never did anything amazing.

Don't be delusional.

(This is all outside abyssea stuff)

SCH v RDM is a dumb arguement....

Mainly b/cause RDM is RDM and u use it for enfeebling or refesh II which defintly puts it in a surrport role.

Where SCH is different

SCH either Nukes or Heals or surrport alliance heal.

Nuking it has 2 niches

1. Low Mp nuking
basically being able to cast spell for 33% of there cost every 48 secs at the same time recovering around 10 mp a tick means that over time SCH should out nuke any job.

2. Low hate DMG
Honestly while you don't see it much helixs can put out 2-3k worth of DMG for say 300-400 DMG worth if hate

Outside this SCH nukes are pretty strong to the point it's single target stuff is stronger than BLMs nukes the only issue is it's all stratagem dependent and BL/SCHM will get hailstorm at 99 anyway which will close the gap.

Then as a healer/ally healer

Ok WHMs are the best healers but in a ally to have 1 healer being a SCH is a great thing since it doesn't need surrport (10-12 mp a tick from sublimation/gear) Stratagems that allow it to aoe heal any party or boost the potency of cure IV either way as a healer SCH is really good at being an ally healer.

Sorry but RDM really doesn't take anything from SCH or SCH from RDM were as SCH v BLM or SCH v WHM is a valid argument

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Originally Posted by saevel

And this is where you show you've never actually used RDM in a NM fight, the only location enfeebles matter.

SE nerfed Saboteur hardcore, its only 25~50% effective vs anything that's ITG.

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Link for proof? BG sources would suggest otherwise. There's an ability from your best debuffing sub (Stun says hi), called elemental seal, which should help you land it for 6 out of 10 minutes (and with 2 rdms, keep it up fulltime). If you don't need elemental seal, then you can keep it up solo with one rdm.

Whether NM's melee hits are the issue or not is irrelvant. You posted that a SCH's Slow was equal or better than a Rdm's, which is just completely not true. (Also, Manifestation doesn't work with Slow, meaning you can't AoE it. Just fyi.)

Yes it actually was nerfed (half potency on NMs iirc, including fucking Bubbly Bernie) but calling Sch slow 5% behind Rdm is still off.

Old pages haven't been update in awhile.

EDIT: not sure on which update it was but they did post "An issue wherein the effects of the red mage ability "Saboteur" would exceed intended limits has been resolved."

Only relevant thread I could find quickly - http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...92735199041455

And now for some education to those who think their really "mage" RDMs and doubt me in the slightest.

If your going to Saboteur an enfeeble, your wasting your time with Slow I/II / Para I/II. Instead use Dia III and I'll show you why I went 5/5 on it.

Dia III is -15% defense, defense like haste is the denominator of the formula. Thus a 15% reduce it 100/(100-15) = 17.6% attack boost. With body its 18% for 100/(100-18) = 21.9% attack boost. And on something ITG its 50% effect (60% with +2 gloves), some of them are 25% effect (30% with +2 gloves).

So Dia III could be 18.75 ~ 22.5 or 22.5 ~ 27 reduction in defense. 27% is a 36.9% boost to everyone's attack. A WAR with 650 attack would be hitting as though he had 889 attack.

Now for the kicker, it stacks with other forms of defense down. Namely a DRG's angon which is -20%. Combined with our Dia III you get 35% def down or 53.8% attack boost. And finially Angon + Sab Dia III (assuming NM is only 50%) ends up with 47% def down or 88.6% attack boost. A 650 attack WAR would be hitting as though he had 1225 attack. Basically every single DD auto-caps or nearly does the attack ratio on whatever NM your fighting, even the super high def turtle ones. Even the lowly RDM @527 attack would be hitting as though he had 993 attack.

Heck on regular monsters with a non-sab Dia III (18%) I'm looking at 527 * 1.219 = 642 effective attack.

Ahh the wonders of math.

Our single greatest debuff is Dia III, and its power is unresistable and completely unaffected by gear (except emp body). Thus a RDM/NIN with gear swap macros can "enfeeble" just as much as a RDM/WHM / RDM/SCH pink-mage can. We can refresh / haste the same as a backliner. The only thing that is worse is we lose the 10~22 from staff. EXCEPT they just made a Cure +10% sword that has really nice DPS. SE's giving us a hint.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Link for proof? BG sources would suggest otherwise. There's an ability from your best debuffing sub (Stun says hi), called elemental seal, which should help you land it for 6 out of 10 minutes (and with 2 rdms, keep it up fulltime). If you don't need elemental seal, then you can keep it up solo with one rdm.

Whether NM's melee hits are the issue or not is irrelvant. You posted that a SCH's Slow was equal or better than a Rdm's, which is just completely not true. (Also, Manifestation doesn't work with Slow, meaning you can't AoE it. Just fyi.)

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Umm it was BG that verified that it was 50% on ITGs. And later only 25% on certain super NMs (Rani says hi). The 25% is most likely because the NM has a flag 50% reduction.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

(This is all outside abyssea stuff)

SCH v RDM is a dumb arguement....

Mainly b/cause RDM is RDM and u use it for enfeebling or refesh II which defintly puts it in a surrport role.

Where SCH is different

SCH either Nukes or Heals or surrport alliance heal.

Nuking it has 2 niches

1. Low Mp nuking
basically being able to cast spell for 33% of there cost every 48 secs at the same time recovering around 10 mp a tick means that over time SCH should out nuke any job.

2. Low hate DMG
Honestly while you don't see it much helixs can put out 2-3k worth of DMG for say 300-400 DMG worth if hate

Outside this SCH nukes are pretty strong to the point it's single target stuff is stronger than BLMs nukes the only issue is it's all stratagem dependent and BL/SCHM will get hailstorm at 99 anyway which will close the gap.

Then as a healer/ally healer

Ok WHMs are the best healers but in a ally to have 1 healer being a SCH is a great thing since it doesn't need surrport (10-12 mp a tick from sublimation/gear) Stratagems that allow it to aoe heal any party or boost the potency of cure IV either way as a healer SCH is really good at being an ally healer.

Sorry but RDM really doesn't take anything from SCH or SCH from RDM were as SCH v BLM or SCH v WHM is a valid argument

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SCH/RDM has

Slow
Paralyze
Bind
Gravity
Dispel
Dia II
Sleep I / II without DA/AW
Refresh 1
Regen III
And next update Haste
Enspell
Phalanx
Stoneskin (they have this naively now)
Blink
Barspells, if you really want to count them.
Cure IV
All status cures
Reraise III
Tier IV nukes
Then all their Weather spells
All their Helix Spells
And now the single best buff in the game, Embrava.
And the single best DoT in the game, Klaustrum.
JA's that AOE the above spells
JA's that reduce cost of above spells
JA's that reduce casting / recasting time of above spells
JA's that enhance potency of Cure / Nukes
JA's that enhance duration of buffs
Granted the above two require 2HR usage and are used sparingly.

Umm that leaves RDM with,

Slow II (5% above normal)
Paralyze II (no consistent data existing, years after it's release)
Dia III (godly)
Refresh II (godly, but BRD's is better)
JA that increase potency / duration of next enfeeble, half effective on ITG.
JA that increase's our melee and self buff capacity
JA that replentish's our MP supply

And now a JA that makes next spell instant cast / recast, or next party members spell instant cast / recast. Timer is 10min, seriously needs lower timer.

Hmm, I think SCH made out like a bandit here. I've already explained how Slow is actually crap at higher potency, its effectiveness diminishes rapidly past 25%. Paralyze is completely random and most of the current end game NM's are 100% flat resistant to it. Same with Break. Addle is weak, and further weakened on NM's due to flat potency reduction.

So for party support SCH crush's a RDM almost as badly as a WHM does. Their almost our equal in enfeebles, with Dia III being the only one that sets us apart. And "enfeebles" as a category suck, seriously no alliance / LS leader brings a RDM along for "enfeebles". We are there to give the WHM a 7mp/tick refresh that stacks with the BRD's 9mp/tick ballads. We're occasionally asked to stun, depending on the monster.

Elemental Seal .. seriously ..... wow.

At no time in the past 20 levels has magic accuracy on enfeebles ever been an issue. It's so LOL that the BLM's laugh at it and have asked that ES be changed into a nuke enhancing JA. It's only use has been to land Sleep on extremely resistant NM's / or Sleepga for groups in certain BC / KSNM style fights. Other then that your landing one guaranteed nuke per 10min, and a MUCH better sub for that would be /SCH.

So Sch's best buff is once every 2 hours, and doesn't even require them to be in the pt, so they're like Smn, but worse since Smn actually needs an invite.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

So Sch's best buff is once every 2 hours, and doesn't even require them to be in the pt, so they're like Smn, but worse since Smn actually needs an invite.

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Yep it's that good.

Of course you do realize they get all the same buffs we do and can aoe them. And here's another kicker, their duration JA is normally 2.0x duration, but with a SINGLE piece of their +2 its 2.5 duration. So they can aoe buffs for 2.5x duration, better then our single target 1.8~1.9x duration. Their a RDM+2 in the buffing category.

Seriously, if they were so busy trying to be BLM-1's then they'd realize they were one of the best buffers in the game. Actually I honestly thing it's on purpose, they don't want what happened to RDM to happen to them.

Same as BLU's and suppor / healer role. A BLU/SCH (or /WHM) is a superior healer then a RDM. Their seconded only by WHM's in this duty due to how their cures scale. M.Fruit and P.embrace have separate timers and follow the regular cure formula, except their base potency is higher then Cure IV. Thus whatever we can get out of Cure IV they can get higher out of both of theirs. They also have erasega in the form of Winds of Promyvion, 36mp 20s recast. They also have a super cheap aoe cure Healing Breeze and the ridiculous White Wind. From /WHM they can get Haste, single target erase and all the -na's. They have a 250~280 point aoe stoneskin that doesn't require JA's to use, /SCH gives them better healing power all the -na's but lacks haste. Problem is the BLU's are too busy trying to be DD's to notice their one of the games best healers. Or really none of them want to heal and actively avoid it.

And until they can do that to haste (SE already blocked that) or get higher than Cure 4 no one will really care outside of using them for zerg/Kaustra.

I don't think anyone for a second believes that crap about turning allies into demigods in the first place, or SE has a very loose translation of demigod.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

And until they can do that to haste (SE already blocked that) or get higher than Cure 4 no one will really care outside of using them for zerg/Kaustra.

I don't think anyone for a second believes that crap about turning allies into demigods in the first place, or SE has a very loose translation of demigod.

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SE never said anything about us turning allies into demi-gods, it was turning ourselves into demi-gods but badly translated. We've gone over this.

And .. you realize the WHM casts haste right? Or the BRD/WHM, or anyone /WHM (SMN/WHM comes to mind). Heck you can cast haste across the alliance or out of party. This isn't 6-man merit party anymore, stop thinking that way. The haste spell isn't something restricted to two ~ three jobs (SMN) anymore, its now available to EVERYONE. So take that right off your list of reasons to bring a RDM.

Plus a SCH/WHM can make haste last 450 seconds, that's 7:30 seconds. We can't even hope to reach that duration (like it actually matters).

I never said it was a reason to bring a Rdm, but Embrava being outside pt castable doesn't mean I'm going to be adding Sch to pts anytime soon either.

And no it doesn't matter since you're having them blow all their strats on hastes or Accession buffs... really.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

I never said it was a reason to bring a Rdm, but Embrava being outside pt castable doesn't mean I'm going to be adding it to pts anytime soon either.

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Its not for you or any of the low man groups. It's godly for a big alliance zerg, and you can't drop people from a VWNM fight, nor from a WoE group. So your gonna drop the SCH ........ for ...... AV? Really missing where a 18 man group would need to drop someone now adays. Like I said, stop thinking 6-man killing birds as being the definition of a job.

And anyway, why bring a RDM over a SCH? Other then Dia III and 4mp/tick (difference from NQ refresh and HQ refresh II), there is absolutely zero RDM brings to the table as "mage". They can bring a significant amount of damage, but we're talking in your "RDM is a mage" universe.

And that's exactly why I'm for SE improving Rdm's mage aspect, and not more toys like Temper.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

And that's exactly why I'm for SE improving Rdm's mage aspect, and not more toys like Temper.

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Ahh see your biased, you consider anything "melee" to be a "toy", even when its +13% DA. SE could release en-death in a spell, and you'd still call it a "toy". And this is also where our views diverge, I'm for SE enhancing all aspects of RDM, not a single one. I want more melee stuff, but I also want much more magic stuff.

I'd like SE to create spells that are like temper (in that only one can be up) but are
+Magic Attack Bonus
and another one for
+Magic Accuracy
And potentially another for +Cure Pot, but that's reaching a bit.

Also would prefer the following enfeebles and have NM's not immune to them. Also use enfeebling skill, not the BLM version that scale poorly and don't stack worth a damn.

Attack-Down
Defense-Down
Magic-Attack Down
Magic-Defense Down
Evasion-Down
Accuracy-Down
Magic-Evasion-Down
Magic-Accuracy-Down
Crit-Rate-Down

And then base STAT enfeebles
Reduce-STR
Reduce-VIT
Reduce-DEX
Reduce-AGI
Reduce-MND
Reduce-INT
Reduce-CHR

Would like for SE to give us the rest of the Regen line already, and a special RDM only super HoT, similar to what Embrava does (Embrava is based on Enh Magic BTW) only we don't need a 2hr for it. And I mean only the regen power, they can keep the rest as it's their 2hr.

And while I'd prefer RDM not to get Cure V, with VI being the way it currently is, I wouldn't mind if they gave WHM something even better. Possibly a JT that WHM's cures can randomly remove status ailments, and give WHM Erase II with the ability to remove multiple status ailments on each cast.

Healing outside Abyssea isn't about brute force Cure power anymore. Your tanks get afflicted with crazy status ailments, and lots of them. They need removed ASAP, so you end up with the WHM, the BRD/WHM and myself (RDM/SCH) spamming erase / paralyna / silena on both our PLD tanks right after a NM does a crazy move.

For game balance? Yea it is, Look at twilight scythe, endeath and it's still a joke, mortal ray for Blu- also a joke. Temper is good for meleeing but it doesn't make us any more viable for 'alliance fights' any more than it did pre update.

Rdm is still behind Blu in white damage, and that's with temper/gain-str, and they aren't exactly in high demand for tougher fights either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

For game balance? Yea it is, Look at twilight scythe, endeath and it's still a joke, mortal ray for Blu- also a joke. Temper is good for meleeing but it doesn't make us any more viable for 'alliance fights' any more than it did pre update.

Rdm is still behind Blu in white damage, and that's with temper/gain-str, and they aren't exactly in high demand for tougher fights either.

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All the more reason to buff the melee side then.

As I've said in several threads, I'm already doing the "melee RDM" thing, have been doing it since 2003 when I first played the game. It's had its ups and downs. Was never an issue in the past, you just had some really bad RDM's meleeing in crap gear and ignoring the primary reason they were invited (refreshing the WHM, BLM and PLD). Later once full time healing become expected, then you were simply too busy, plus main healing and meleeing are not compatible with each other.

Meleeing only took a hit post 76, when SE did stupid things like putting us on teal but not the pink gear, yet BLU gets both. Putting BLU on mage gear but keeping RDM off most melee gear for the past couple of updates. Thankfully it looks like that time is over now, as we've been thrown a few bones.

SE has made a point that their going to be doing more to encourage RDM's to melee, they've also made a point that their going to introduce more enfeebles. Melee updates are easy to do and they've demonstrated proficiency in doing so, even if the sometimes need feedback. Enfeebling on the other hand they've screwed up since day 1 and I don't expect them to get it right.

Anyhow back to the point at hand, all sides of RDM should be buffed. RDM melee is not a toy, to anyone who's actually tried it becomes rather obvious that it's not a toy. Are we like the WAR / MNK / SAMs? No and we shouldn't be. We're good enough to contribute rather then standing in the back with our stave's shoved where the sun don't shine pretending to be useful. At least up front I'm actually contributing measurable and meaningfully rather then pretending that the extra 10 MND on Slow I get from using a club will actually do something.

And I'm perfectly fine with it post Temper. Keep including Rdm on new gear and Rdm melee is just fine where it's at for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

And I'm perfectly fine with it post Temper. Keep including Rdm on new gear and Rdm melee is just fine where it's at for me.

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This and fix the WS distribution for non-emp RDM's. Fixing enspells would be nice too.

RDM doesn't need *more* melee buffs, they need what's there to be fixed already. Its the mage side that needs more shiny spells.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

I never said it was a reason to bring a Rdm, but Embrava being outside pt castable doesn't mean I'm going to be adding Sch to pts anytime soon either.

And no it doesn't matter since you're having them blow all their strats on hastes or Accession buffs... really.

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Heh, 2hr chest pops are pretty common in Abyssea SCH's can just spam the hell out of Embrava at their leisure making it more of a zerg fest than it already is, I find it hard anyone would overlook that fact since Abyssea is about the only thing that matters in this game too most.

Even outside it would be pretty damn invaluable, it's like a superpowered atma and it has a long duration with Perpetulance. Get 2-3x SCH/WHM's for Voidwatch cycle Embrava when they wear and you have a constant superpowered regain/haste/regen throughout the battle, what melee job WOULDN'T want to abuse that. And while most do not generally melee on VWNM's in a normal setting, it does not mean it wouldn't open up the possibility.

NINJA EDIT: For added effect SCH's could also throw out extended duration/aoe Regen III's and stoneskins for damage mitigation, and single haste's to put the melees pretty damn close to the haste cap (if they have haste capped via gear/hasso).

Pretty overpowering potential for one job if you ask me. ;P

Too bad SCH is completely useless inside abyssea.

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Originally Posted by saevel

All the more reason to buff the melee side then.

As I've said in several threads, I'm already doing the "melee RDM" thing, have been doing it since 2003 when I first played the game. It's had its ups and downs. Was never an issue in the past, you just had some really bad RDM's meleeing in crap gear and ignoring the primary reason they were invited (refreshing the WHM, BLM and PLD). Later once full time healing become expected, then you were simply too busy, plus main healing and meleeing are not compatible with each other.

Meleeing only took a hit post 76, when SE did stupid things like putting us on teal but not the pink gear, yet BLU gets both. Putting BLU on mage gear but keeping RDM off most melee gear for the past couple of updates. Thankfully it looks like that time is over now, as we've been thrown a few bones.

SE has made a point that their going to be doing more to encourage RDM's to melee, they've also made a point that their going to introduce more enfeebles. Melee updates are easy to do and they've demonstrated proficiency in doing so, even if the sometimes need feedback. Enfeebling on the other hand they've screwed up since day 1 and I don't expect them to get it right.

Anyhow back to the point at hand, all sides of RDM should be buffed. RDM melee is not a toy, to anyone who's actually tried it becomes rather obvious that it's not a toy. Are we like the WAR / MNK / SAMs? No and we shouldn't be. We're good enough to contribute rather then standing in the back with our stave's shoved where the sun don't shine pretending to be useful. At least up front I'm actually contributing measurable and meaningfully rather then pretending that the extra 10 MND on Slow I get from using a club will actually do something.

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Can I live in the universe you live in too? Must be cool there in bizzaro land.

The more I read this thread, the more it becomes apparant that our mage side is in serious need of some loving. Maybe people shout stfu about melee until these more serious issues are sorted out. We don't want SE to mis-interpret and think we want melee upgrades more than mage ones.

eh, yah. i fall on the pro-melee side of this thing, but we just got temper. if nothing else it shows that my opinions are on the devs radar. i'm willing to sit back for a while and see what they do with backline stuff.

don't gemme wrong i hope they don't completely FORGET melee stuff for another 3 years... like last time they decided to "return rdm to the frontlines" but it's the other sides "turn"

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Originally Posted by noodles355

The more I read this thread, the more it becomes apparant that our mage side is in serious need of some loving. Maybe people shout stfu about melee until these more serious issues are sorted out. We don't want SE to mis-interpret and think we want melee upgrades more than mage ones.

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And I want both sides buffed, people forget it DOESN'T have to be one or the other.