The debate-free Poll.

[cidbahamut]

However, every other argument is hogwash. Stating that RDM should receive NO melee adjustments is stating you want Red Mage's Sword and Dagger skill removed, Enspells Removed or be party cast only. Have their entire Relic/Mythic/Emperian access to be removed, because that's effectively what you're trying to do: Remove RDM's martial aspects from any kind of consiteration, ever.

To which I retort flatly: GO. PLAY. SCHOLAR.

To which I shall retort: If we wanted to play Scholar then we'd play Scholar.

You really need to stop wearing your pants on your head if you honestly think Scholar is just Red Mage without a sword. The two play very differently.

[Swords]

To which I shall retort: If we wanted to play Scholar then we'd play Scholar.

You really need to stop wearing your pants on your head if you honestly think Scholar is just Red Mage without a sword. The two play very differently.

Aye, in the same sense though it's like saying RDM's who want to melee should go play a melee job. Fact of the matter is people generalize that melee jobs all play the same, but in retrospect they all play uniquely even though they serve the same function. RDM's has it's own unique playstyle when it comes to melee, with magic to beef up and support it's damage. Some people like the unique melee aspect of RDM and the choices it gives, but disdain BLU or other melee jobs for their dependency on spells or spell limitations, in other words lack of full self efficiency and flexibility.

[Asymptotic]

RDMs who want to melee should solo.

[Scuro]

It's funny because it only took a whole 3-4 pages of actual poll taking before it blew up into a p*ssing contest of examples and long winded posts. I guess that was bound to occur sooner or later.

RDM's has it's own unique playstyle when it comes to melee, with magic to beef up and support it's damage. Some people like the unique melee aspect of RDM and the choices it gives, but disdain BLU or other melee jobs for their dependency on spells or spell limitations, in other words lack of full self efficiency and flexibility.

What are you talking about? BLU can use just as much magic as a RDM can in DD. Either you can zerg in which case you blow off your heavy spells, or you can just TP and use buffs to supplement damage taken, and maybe throw out a Delta Thrust every now and again to keep the TP down. RDM and BLU use magic equally except BLU's can actually zerg while RDMs cannot (outside of 2hr I suppose). RDM uses magic to stay alive, or else they would be dirt napping every AoE or pulling hate (if such a thing were godly possible, and if it were in my shell, I would break the damn thing, kick everybody out and start over new.)

[saevel]

And while I'm hoping all aspects of the job get enhanced, both mage and melee, our melee is the side that is hurt the most. It's so hurt that you have people coming on and saying "its not what RDM is for", when the job ~IS~ clearly designed for that, just poorly implemented.

Stated my preference right there crimson. We should get updates to ALL our components.

And yes a SCH/RDM is identical to if not better then a RDM in all ways except,

Refresh II
Dia III

They have better healing, better party support, better nuking, and better crowd control / enfeebling. The only thing left to RDM is it's melee capacity, which while being solid is sorely lacking in the gear department. WS's are fixed via CDC, but I can't expect every RDM to have an almace.

[Swords]

BLU's can't use everything they have at their disposal at any given minute, and if you equip all the spells you think you would need for any such situation you do run into the situation where you may have to give up a trait/s, which is a spell limitation and shows BLU's dependency on some spells even if they never use them in battle.

[Septimus]

However, every other argument is hogwash. Stating that RDM should receive NO melee adjustments is stating you want Red Mage's Sword and Dagger skill removed, Enspells Removed or be party cast only. Have their entire Relic/Mythic/Emperian access to be removed, because that's effectively what you're trying to do: Remove RDM's martial aspects from any kind of consiteration, ever.

To which I retort flatly: GO. PLAY. SCHOLAR.

I can't believe that I am letting myself be pulled into this quagmire.

No, stating that RDM should get no melee adjustments means just that, that the melee stays where it is. RDM melee is and always will be a toy. It is something that is done on trash mobs because if you are fighting a real mob you have other things that you should be doing.

I don't know how many of you guys remember this or were playing back then, but a while back there was a bug after an update that caused melee damage to no longer have a randomized factor. Meaning that you always hit for the same amount of damage, so it was very easy to test to see if your attack was capped against a monster's defense. During this bug I went to Beaucedine Glacier for some reason or another, and found out to my horror that my melee damage as a 75 RDM was not capped against the tigers and goblins there, mobs that were 30+ levels under me. That was the exact moment that I became disenchanted with RDM melee.

I know someone is going to retort with "your melee gear must have sucked", (I don't think that I wore any because I hadn't been expecting to melee) but the point is that our base attack is so low that it wasn't capped against level 30-40 mobs at 75. This is not something that is worthwhile. A RDM is never going to get a party invitation because of a melee buff, we need buffs for enfeebling and enhancing to be a useful job again.

[Fredjan]

To re-literate since my last post:

I'm honestly not against RDM getting a melee buff of any kind, such as getting more WS's without having to use certain support jobs. Temper was given to RDM to help them in this aspect, although I still stick by my opinion that it should NOT have been self-target only (in said scenario, it wouldn't be Accession-compatible anyway, rule of thumb as most people know is that Scholar has to be capable, or eventually capable, of casting the spell - this was the case with Regen III on WHM before SCH was able to learn it - plus I think most saw SCH learning that anyway).

I've meleed on several mages - White Mage, Red Mage, and Bard, I know it can be fun for a change of pace all too well. What got me hooked wasn't enspells, it was White Mage's Hexa Strike. In fact, I leveled Red Mage because I wanted to be able to support my parties more efficiently at the time. In early levels, sure, I meleed, I just couldn't justify it after 50. Anyway...

If they had made Temper able to be cast on others, not only would it have been a melee buff, it would've been an additional reason to actually PLAY Red Mage in a party/HNM setting, and they would've gained a good enhancing magic spell while SE'd also show they're listening to their own "Job Manifesto Vision". Red Mage is by no means a godly party "enhancer", but more of a superior debuffer (when the increased acc. is deemed mandatory).

In a nutshell Refresh II/group 2 merits (aka: increased potency enfeebles, not unique) shouldn't be the only spells a RDM main can offer to others, and I'm sure everyone would agree with me on this.

If it's worth noting, people don't tell me to play Scholar either, though with the 2hr spell additions this may change in zerg situations. My activities while playing Red Mage are when I normally don't have any intention of wielding a sword, so therefore, I'm more in favor of mage adjustments, which SHOULD be SE's priority. Getting Raise II and Thunder IV really wasn't enough to be considered a "mage" addition, neither is a 10-minute-recast-for-1-Chainspell'd-spell job ability (it's cute). While Raise II did surprise me, Thunder IV was expected.

My view of gaining Raise II is simply this: We can raise people slightly faster now. As everyone knows, exp difficulty doesn't exist. You can get capped exp from mobs in visions of abyssea areas at level 95... given enough time for the "chain" builds up.

tl;dr, my "view" has somewhat changed:
I want a reason to be able to actually gear Red Mage and offer it to people that normally would want my White Mage or Black Mage. If they gave RDM something to offer to the front lines, I'd take it, if it meant people'd ask me to play it - however, considering how dangerous front-lining can be in a serious event by the time we're 99, I don't consider it to be likely. Thus, it's more likely our "back-line" aspect would be buffed. Auras would be kinda cool, as SE has already done this through "Sphere" effects on the Rare/Ex Voidwatch bodies.

But the most likely case will be this:

A RDM is never going to get a party invitation because of a melee buff, we need buffs for enfeebling and enhancing to be a useful job again.

I have NEVER been invited on Red Mage to do anything but the above as well as healing/occ. nuking.

I feel the same way on Scholar - Enmity+/- spells and a 1/tic Regain spell aren't enough to get people to tell me "Play Scholar!", though like I said before, the 2hr spells could change this. However, SCH = different subject = different thread, so I'll leave it at that.

It's sad when the only thing that excited me this update when it comes to RDM in particular was the ability to cap cure potency with much greater ease (4% cape, 10%/12%/15% body). It may not be Cure V, but it's an addition none-the-less. Getting Thunder IV was kinda cool, but when I can nuke for far greater damage on Black Mage and Scholar, it's kinda "meh." But at least it's an additional !! spell.

[saevel]

Umm RDM has the following..

Refresh II
Dia III

and ... that's it.

For "enfeebles" Slow II is 5% stronger then Slow 1, they both cap at dMND=75. Para II is so unreliable, that there still isn't hard numbers on it's effects, years after it's creation. Elegy is 50% Slow cap, no merits required. SCH can hit the same Slow 1 cap and aoe it, aoe sleep and the rest. BLMs have had sleepga II for ages along with BRD and BLU.

So honestly, I have yet to see where this "supporting" the party is coming form. What exactly are you doing? Casting Haste / Refresh / Cure IV on everyone? Because every time I hear "supporting" it's always in relation to those three spells, something a WHM/RDM can do and do better. A SCH/RDM can do all but haste, a SCH/WHM can do haste and at 99 a SCH/RDM completely replaces us.

So umm, yeah... supporting ... got it ... way to leach a spot.

[saevel]

And the really funny thing about "supporting" the party, you can do it just as easily /NIN as you can /WHM with a staff on your back. Thanks to these things called gear macros. <Waiting for the staff argument to come in>

@Sept,

Go troll else where. There is no such thing as "base attack" for a job, its skill + STR/2 + JT + gear. Meaning if a WAR wears mage gear and use's H2H or a staff then their gonna have "crap base attack".

RDM is B in swords, BLU is A-, skills have all gone up at the same rate post 75. 269-250 = 19, WAR is ~exactly~ the same skill as us. BLU has less base STR, it's spells put them at right about our level if not 1~6 points higher. WAR is about 5 points higher depending on level (@95 the stat gap is getting smaller). At 75 my RDM was sitting on the same attack as a BLU. Since then BLU's have gotten better TP gear and RDM hasn't got much better so they've pulled ahead but not by much.

It's WAR's JA's that give it insane attack growth, Berserk is just that good.

And one final note on that subject.
Gain-STR is giving me +20 STR (+10 attack), and Temper seems to be 12~13% DA at the same enhancing magic. So yeah our melee capabilities aren't exactly meager.