I did Nyzul with a WHM mainhealing while i was on brd. LOL @ a rdm ever mainhealing soulflayers and crap, would be hell. RDM's suck at mainhealing vs lots of AOE damage and status effects, esuna + shellra5 5/5 is amazing.
WHM has always been the best healer since the /sch buffs + afflatus solace/esuna/etc update. RDM was only good at healing when you didn't actually need "Healing" and needed "Haste/dia3/debuffs", aka merits and salvage(phalanx2 reduced damage to basically 0) SCH was a better healer than RDM by a lot at 75, and WHM was better than SCH. It was perfectly balanced, now it's horrible. WHM OR GTFO.
Also, no, a RDM cannot heal certain Body seal NM's or certain emp NM's, unless you're talking about lol carabosse or seal NM's that nin/dnc can solo or a blm/whm can mainheal. If a RDM or SCH can mainheal it, a WAR/WHM with refresh atmas and cruor buffs can JUST AS WELL too. That is the problem.
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09-06-2011, 05:15 AMShiyo
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09-06-2011, 05:18 AMSpankWustlerReally, the Scholar sub and Afflatus Solace fixed a lot of the issues that White Mage previously experienced with marathon-style events. After those additions, I didn't feel nearly as pressed when I was the sole healer for something like Limbus or Salvage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
Depending on the monster type that popped up, White Mage could be super awesome in Einherjar. Esuna is amazing for dealing with the status AoEs that so many of the monster types that appear there enjoy applying. -
09-06-2011, 05:20 AMShiyo
Einherjar? Get -50% attk down bats, /cry as RDM, /esuna as WHM and lol, accession - > erase as SCH and lol almost as much as WHM.
If you honestly think WHM wasn't the best einherjar healer, and RDM was barely a viable healer there, I don't know what to tell you. -
09-06-2011, 05:23 AMSiiriSure they could have, and did sometimes. I was talking about my experiences. Why I said your milage may vary. Certainly Red mage was preferred in nyzul, it was obvious in shouts. Anyway, I am done arguing this minor point. Funny thing is, I haven't even said my opinion on the Cure V mess. I do wish red mage and scholar were more viable main heals. Most white mages I know outside of myself or a couple others leveled the job as a bandwagon and they pretty much suck. I would love to be able to come DD to an event and not have a garbage mage trying to heal. I just don't know the answer. I have agreed with the proposal put up numerous times strip the enmity down off Cure V and just buff white mage tranquil heart way up vs. the other 2 jobs, but SE doesn't seem to want to go there. Maybe making healing skill matter would help as well. I just can't say I agree with slapping Cure V on red mage and scholar as is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
Sorry to edit: addressing einherjar. I was an officer in my shell and one of my big pushes was white mage main heal for every party. They founded the shell with the idea, from Blue Gartr threads, to make einherjar parties like colibri parties. Our first few months we went red mage main heal. There was epic discussion on forum with me pushing white mage heal. I do agree white mage heal was better, it was a mindset that red mage was sooo awesome everywhere. -
09-06-2011, 05:30 AMShiyo
WHM was a better healer than RDM always, much more MP efficient thanks to sublimation/light arts/penury, stronger cures, better barspells, better shell, etc. People always argued convert/refresh made a RDM have more cures/mp than a WHM, this is simply wrong. I never experienced such a thing, I experienced the complete opposite. When people needed cure bombing a WHM was ALWAYS better, and always kept their up up much better than a RDM. A RDM would slowly fall behind and lose the MP war, letting people die. This was even more true when it came to AOE damage, a RDM is the worst AOE healer in the game(still is).
RDM was just a viable substitute healer, instead of being completely unviable and worthless <_< Healer balance is completely broken. -
09-06-2011, 05:34 AMSpankWustlerEvery time I hear somebody say this, for some reason, the ending of Chinatown plays in my head. I think it's because the truth is generally really depressing, and this statement is always true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siiri
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09-06-2011, 05:39 AMShiyoYeah, I literally cannot play a DD job without my mule WHM healing me or I'll die to the dumbest crap ever, never be hasted, and never be -na'd properly. It makes the game very unfun :/ There's like 0 good WHM's on my server. I didn't realize the easiest job in the game to play was so complex...Quote:
Most white mages I know outside of myself or a couple others leveled the job as a bandwagon and they pretty much suck. I would love to be able to come DD to an event and not have a garbage mage trying to heal.
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09-06-2011, 06:23 AMJerbob
I'm sorry, but that's the most disrespectful thing I've heard in a long time. White Mage is easy if you're fighting something that's easy to kill - just the same as any other job - or if you've only got one person to heal, like your mule. Conversely, if I'm in a group fighting something that AoE paralyses or silences, deals AoE damage, slows, blinds and goodness knows what else then I'm literally casting 100% of the time keeping status effects off people and keeping them healthy. This is with Divine Benison's fast cast on ailment removal spells and capped cure casting time reduction, fast cast and all that jazz.
White mage isn't easy on monsters that you need a white mage for. I'm busy. So I'm sorry if your blindna is 10 seconds late when I'm dropping Cure Vs on a tank who's struggling with Utsusemi, or you aren't hasted the instant it drops because everyone else just got silenced and I've got to deal with that first. I have to prioritise, and 10 seconds of blindness or lack of haste are pretty low on my priority list when people are dying.
I love my job as a white mage precisely because I'm busy all the time. I don't appreciate people telling me that my job is boring, easy, a "curebot", or that I'm no good because I've not removed your AGI down when I've got more important things to do right at that moment. Sorry to be so aggressive, but I hear this sort of thing constantly on this forum and it does start getting to me. -
09-06-2011, 06:27 AMShiyo
The job is like half a SCH or 1/3 a RDM, I basically do everything on WHM without thinking because I'm used to doing those things on SCH and RDM, while also doing MUCH MUCH MORE(debuffs, sleeps, dispels, breaks, refresh,nukes, binds, etc).
It's not a hard job at all, the other mages are much more complex and difficult. I will say it's harder than a loldd like mnk though.
The most complex things on WHM is proper esuna/sacrifice use. I rarely ever see anyone use sacrifice properly without being told to. -
09-06-2011, 06:42 AMSpankWustler
People are talking about generally talking about White Mages who have mastered the art of wandering away from the computer, complain if someone changes trousers and momentarily vanishes as a result, allow paralyze to age like the finest European cheese, and feel Haste is the such a luxury that it should be taxed. There are people who suck at FFXI in ways you can not imagine.
I don't think anybody cares about five extraneous seconds of Blindness one way or the other. -
09-06-2011, 06:44 AMReauxYou're right! That is why you throw out that Cure IV when you can, refresh us, and keep haste/enfeebles up. OMG RDM Supporting in a way RDM is supposed to? Run Away! SCH slap some Aurorastorm on yourself or the WHM or the DNC, it does boost CHR, to make Cures more potent or use an element that ties into the mobs weakness so your nukes are higher. Use the right storm spell to make a SMN's avatar perp less and abilities stronger or give the tank more AGI and hate, you can even surpress a BLM hate gain so they can nuke more often. The roles are support, not healing, so support the WHOLE party not just the heals. You can nuke and enfeeble or make other jobs more effective. So do it. That is your niche and what makes you individual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zatias
In every MMO there is really just 1 healer, the rest are hybrids that are passable at best but never as good unless you have multiple in a group.
The main issue is RDM and SCH players thinking that healing is their only viable way of supporting and their only role, and the base perpetuates this. Use your tools!
Edit: Sorry for possibly using the wrong terms for spells. I was typing rather quickly and didn't pay full attention if I was using the right term. I will edit it later to reflect properly what point I am trying to get across. -
09-06-2011, 06:46 AMShiyoI see you've never played a MMO besides FFXI in your entire life.Quote:
In every MMO there is really just 1 healer, the rest are hybrids that are passable at best but never as good unless you have multiple in a group.
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09-06-2011, 06:49 AMJerbob
You must be fighting different mobs to me or be in a different party environment then, because if I'm casting pretty much constantly on the stuff that matters then I'm not sure how you could be casting three times as many spells as me. And of course, White mages can (and should, and do) sleep, enfeeble and dispel stuff when other jobs more suited to it aren't around. I know I do.
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09-06-2011, 06:51 AMEconomizerI've had random damage dealers demand I remove the flash effect on them before.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankWustler
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09-06-2011, 06:52 AMSiiriExactly, I went mnk to hands seal NM in abyssea a couple weeks ago. I was talked out of being white mage. I was at 660 hp for 11 seconds before I died. Yes, I could have used some meds, but these are the situations I see which is the reason I am white mage only by and large. I admit I purposely didn't try to use meds, but I did Chakra. (Obviously since I counted I was proving something, if only to myself. Which is I can't ever not go white mage) Also, my monk doesn't suck, it has a black belt and full tantra and I do gear swap into arhat's etc. I agree if you play white mage aggressively and try to predict tp moves etc, it is a fun job that is just as challenging as anything else. Most people snooze through it though. As for true white mages, the whiny DDs who complain about blind etc obnoxiously just get the bandaids thrown at their heads.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankWustler
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09-06-2011, 06:54 AMReauxJust because you don't agree doesn't make it untrue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiyo
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09-06-2011, 06:59 AMShiyo
WOW - > 4 main healers, 10 classes
Rift - > 20 classes, 4 mainhealers.
FF14 - > like 6 classes, 2 main healers
wat -
09-06-2011, 07:05 AMEconomizerI love Repose, it is like a giant target to wake up the mob and force the White Mage to kite a mob while main healing too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerbob
In an ideal situation, a White Mage is Flashing the mob too, since you can avoid many TP moves this way. And Devotion other mages on a timer (gearing for this isn't the hard part, climbing into the shoes of the party member so you are in range is). And keeping Haste up with half the duration, Barspells up that like to wear when you blink, and Auspice and now Boost spells (although for the weak stuff I can ignore this if I'm being lazy, I'm not exactly waiting for Boost-STR to come out in a party aspect).
It doesn't help that half a White Mage's spells and abilities were designed to be used in the nostrils of a dragon in order to hit anyone in range.
Thieves who think party members get perma-flee and run in circles around a mob when they ready SATA have never tried to Curaga a group of people before, after, or during any combat - you will inevitably miss a party member or two even if you warn them, costing precious MP.
Of course, playing White Mage will feel much easier if you try to pull of the same things using a job that was only designed to blast a crater into the ground and occasionally apply band-aids, and then compare the two.
A good White Mage will look like a psychic genius who cures you to full health faster then it takes to use a cure spell the split-second after to take a fireball to the face, after managing to negate most of the damage of said fireball, and removing the burn effect that was left over. A incredibly good White Mage will also have Club capped to brutally murder any party members using yellow HP latent effects. -
09-06-2011, 07:05 AMMeyi
I use Cure III outside of Abyssea still. Last I recalled, RDM and SCH got these spells as well.
I really don't see what the jobs are crying about.
Edit: And shouldn't RDM be relieved that they no longer need to refresh everyone in the party? Now they can spend more time wiffing with their swords. -
09-06-2011, 07:08 AMReauxWoW 1 main healer = Priest, the rest are hybrids that don't ever match in healing prowess unless a Druid goes full healing spec.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiyo
Rift I havent played so I cannot talk about it.
FF14 1 main healer = Conjurer, Thaumaturge is a main enfeeble with some healing support: in fact most of it's heals are now single target only with higher MP/HP sacrifice. -
09-06-2011, 07:11 AMSparthos
Level BLU, the second best healer in FFXI.
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09-06-2011, 07:14 AMJerbob
Reaux makes an excellent point, in my opinion. FFXI is a game that needs to completely revamp how it sees casting classes working in parties. Red Mages and other hybrid casting jobs shouldn't have to resort to emulating a specialist's role in a party in order to be valuable. SCH is practically -designed- to try to do other job's roles better than they can, though it is admittedly having problems with healing currently. This is poor design.
In my opinion SE needs to do the opposite of what this suggestion proposes. Make hybrid jobs worth a spot in a party on their own merits. Give them unique enhancing or enfeebling effects that actually matter, just as Earthen Armour has earned Summoner a spot in some Voidwatch matches. Things like AoE Boost spells that WHM has should have gone to RDM and been made party member targettable - quick to cast, potentially powerful enhancements that would be unique to RDM. Likewise, Addle should have remained RDM exclusive.
And yeah, I'm REALLY not looking forward to Boost-STR. If they were party member targettable then it wouldn't be too awful, but SE has recently said that AoE self-target enhancing is supposed to have a "risk" attached to it so they won't change it. Ridiculous. -
09-06-2011, 07:18 AMShiyoLOL, you have obviously have not played WOW at all or FF14, we're done here. Cya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaux
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09-06-2011, 07:21 AMEconomizerI don't mind running in, its the cast time and even worse, the duration on these things. Okay, mainly the duration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerbob
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09-06-2011, 07:26 AMJerbob
That's why I think it's so ridiculous - most white mages are able to tell when it's safe to run in and cast things (although when we've got bar-status, bar-element, auspice and boost-whatever to cast it's stretching the TP move window a little if they drop at bad times...) so the risk aspect isn't really a problem at all. Like you say, it's the time wasted.
I do have a problem running in, though, because it wastes time and if I'm busy then I can't always put things back up when they need to be back up. Keeping people alive and enfeeble-free is always going to be a higher priority to me than boosting attributes, though obviously bar-element is more critical. Casting from the back line on target would be quick and painless, less prone to lag spellcasting interrupts and the like, and because we already know when it's safe, there's no difference in the risk. I just wish SE could see that. -
09-06-2011, 07:27 AMShiyoIt's completely broken and retarded that blu is a better healer than SCH and RDM -_-Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparthos
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09-06-2011, 07:54 AMSparthosIt may be odd but the viable healer everyone is whining for is there. SCH and RDM need an intermediate cure between 4 & 5 but in the meantime we're all free to use Blue Mage as a backup healer as it's more than capable of operating in the role - moreso with the addition of White Wind coming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiyo
It isn't like SCH and RDM doesn't have advantages over BLU - Pro/Shell/Barspells being the most obvious. -
09-06-2011, 09:29 AMZhronneLol? You clearly never played WoW or you played it like in the Vanilla days?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaux
There are not 10 classes btw, you need to consider all the specs.
There are 10 "macro-classes", but each class has 3 different specializations.
For example take Priest, you can be a Shadow Priest (ranged dps), a Discipline Priest (damage mitigation healer) or a Holy Priest (your standard healer with a lot of AoEs etc).
Or take Druids: they can be Balance (ranged dps), Feral (tank or melee dps) or Restoration (healer).
Then you have Shamans: Elemental (ranged dps), Enhancement (melee dps), Restoration (healer).
That's a grand total of 5 different healers. Each has its pros and cons but all of them are "main healers" and while excelling in certain field, can be efficiently used in every circumstance.
It's the same with tanks, you have 4 of them: Feral Druid, Protection Paladin, Protection Warrior, Frost Death Knight.
Dunno where or when you got that info but it's wrong and has been wrong at least since The Burning Crusade expansion, if not earlier. -
09-06-2011, 09:50 AMKimble
Giving Cure V to RDM or SCH would just replace WHM as main healer. True WHM is better are aoe curing, etc. But in those type of events where that is an issue, you usually wouldn't have more than the tank on the mob anyways.
While cure IV might not be "enough" to be a main healer, its more than enough to support heal. You toss a Cure III or IV, WHM tosses a cure III or IV and whoever you are healing will most likely be back to full. -
09-06-2011, 09:59 AMHelelOkay, except for the fact that any job going /whm has access to Cure IV. I'm not sure how this post addresses the issue of RDM or SCH being mediocre healers. You're basically saying it's okay for a DRK/WHM to have the same curing potential as a RDM (minus some cure potency gear). If that is indeed what you're arguing then fine, but I think most would agree something is a little off about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimble
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09-06-2011, 10:05 AMKimble
If someone is coming DRK/WHM or DD/WHM at all, you have bigger problems.
And no, they wont have the same curing potency. Pretty sure RDM and SCH can wear a lot more cure potency gear than a DD/WHM.
They also want have barely any from of MP regain. No Refresh, no Sub, Most likely no Ballad. -
09-06-2011, 10:17 AMSirai'll get back to you when sch can use roundel earringQuote:
Originally Posted by Kimble
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09-06-2011, 10:21 AMShiyo
BRD/WHM has 5% less cure potency than RDM, better buffs, more refresh, better debuffs.
BLM/WHM has more cure potency gear than SCH.
SMN/WHM has 15-20% more cure potency than SCH, 10-15% more than RDM.
cool -
09-06-2011, 10:26 AMNeisan_Quetz
14% more of 46% is 50%.
cool
Next update Rdm caps without Add-on gear btw.
Your debuff argument would work if, you know, they didn't stack. -
09-06-2011, 10:27 AMShiyo
5% pants, 3% torque, 5% earring, 22% staff, 3% helm, 4% gloves is 46%?
Also the fact that non-healers have more cure potency than RDM's and SCH's is LOL in itself.
Void watch gear also might as well not exist, so don't count it. -
09-06-2011, 10:27 AMNeisan_Quetz
4% Zenith pumps 46%.
Inb4 Fafnir is hard. -
09-06-2011, 10:29 AMShiyo
I forgot those exist, SMN and brd still have more cure potency ^_^
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09-06-2011, 10:32 AMKimble
If something is to much work for me to get = it doesnt exist.
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09-06-2011, 10:33 AMKimble
Notice how I said DD/WHM, no where did I compare it to SMN or BRD /WHM
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09-06-2011, 10:33 AMNeisan_Quetz
That's cool, brd will never have a mp pool and Smn will keep complaining they're not main healers, again.