A Simple Request from Thieves: An upgrade to Thief's Knife.

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Originally Posted by Sp1cyryan

Keep THFs knife the way it is so people don't have an excuse to full time it.

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pfft, all the gimps already do >_________________________>

Sometimes in the main hand while offhanding a more powerful weapon.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I understand the idea of Thief's Knife becoming a status symbol again like it was before the Sozu fix.. But that isn't really my plan. I don't want a 2.5% Chance at getting a dagger that doesn't suck.

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You have a 100% chance of getting a dagger that doesn't suck with my idea. Even the NQ drop would be very good. The HQs would be slightly better but nobody is forcing you to try for those.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

You have a 100% chance of getting a dagger that doesn't suck with my idea. Even the NQ drop would be very good. The HQs would be slightly better but nobody is forcing you to try for those.

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Anything that forces me to sacrifice an optimal dagger / gear slot for a TH +1 item is just a side grade, and a waste of time IMO.

Lol, read my post no where in there does it say I fail to understand the tp loss, I stated that I find it acceptable. I think asking for another Thief Knife is too much and thieves should be happy with the dagger as is. In my post I stated why I felt this was ok. Read the post before you speak please I dont appreciate you speaking to me in this maner simply because you feel your side is justified over mine. At no time does my disagreement with you or your disagreement with me indictate a failure to understand the core of the discussion. Get it? Good. thx

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Originally Posted by Concerned4FFxi

Lol, read my post no where in there does it say I fail to understand the tp loss, I stated that I find it acceptable. I think asking for another Thief Knife is too much and thieves should be happy with the dagger as is. In my post I stated why I felt this was ok. Read the post before you speak please I dont appreciate you speaking to me in this maner simply because you feel your side is justified over mine. At no time does my disagreement with you or your disagreement with me indictate a failure to understand the core of the discussion. Get it? Good. thx

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does anyone know what hes talking about?

Who suggested the JT that increases base damage according to how much TH+ you have equipped?

WIthout reading the whole thread i wanna just say this is a great idea Karbuncle, same with your Evoker Ring suggestion in the smn forums.

Have a sequence of quests getting harder and harder to gradually increase the stats, sounds perfect.

For Thief Knife i would have the final quest change TH+1 into TH+2.

On the gimps mainhanding thf knife, i lol'd

For nm's

Daka +2/Thief Knife then after first TH upgrade > Daka +2/Triplus Dagger

Anywho fingers crossed that they implement this

thf as a trial would work but it has to be difficult to attain like the emp weapons where in order to get +2 th, u will need 100 carabosse jem or something

Not that I'm against difficulty but why should a dagger with TH+2 be more difficult to Obtain than a game-shattering Empyrean Weapon?

Lets think logically here. Make it difficult so it can be powerful enough to deserve that difficulty, But at the same time, it doesn't need to be broom-rape. The Weapon won't replace anything we're using now full time, Its not what i want, Simply that it be a bit stronger so when we do use it, Its not a horrible hit to our DoT like it is now.

A lot of good ideas floating around. A Quest involving a tie-in to the end of the THF AF quest could have potential as well. A lot of Colorful characters in the THF AF Quest i liked..

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Originally Posted by Ezekieal

For nm's

Daka +2/Thief Knife then after first TH upgrade > Daka +2/Triplus Dagger

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Am I the only one that held onto Auric Dagger for annoying/difficult TP move NMs?

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Originally Posted by FANCY60

thf as a trial would work but it has to be difficult to attain like the emp weapons where in order to get +2 th, u will need 100 carabosse jem or something

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Bold: contradictory points. Carabosse is a joke.

Bleh. I wouldn't care if it was killing 100 mandies outside port windy.......... Unless its better than what I have now for damage dealing, or SE officially announces " This dagger will give ~%50 more drops than Thief Knife", I'm not wasting my time. as long as it goes in that slot and isn't better than what I was DDing with before, its not a real solution.

I would really like to see them tell every other DD class "OK, we decided that your new weapon will have super crappy damage, but an awesome added effect (that may or may not actually work, but you will have to use it just i case.) so you are gonna just have to put it on for the first hit of every fight from now on. Have fun."

Sometimes I wonder if they are confused and think this is just like swapping staffs on a mage job.

The idea of making TK a Key Item is really growing on me.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Am I the only one that held onto Auric Dagger for annoying/difficult TP move NMs?

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No, it's a decent Dagger to DD in still, the Subtle Blow can be a nice bonus if it's relevant.

If they do something like this via ToM they should make it unique to thf and our abilities. Steal 20 bone chips from skeletons on darksday. Land a successful sneak attack against raptors 200 times, Mug 50 dull gems from carabosse or something of that sort. It would def make it more interesting than collecting another 50 whatevers from whoever...snore

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Bleh. I wouldn't care if it was killing 100 mandies outside port windy.......... Unless its better than what I have now for damage dealing, or SE officially announces " This dagger will give ~%50 more drops than Thief Knife", I'm not wasting my time. as long as it goes in that slot and isn't better than what I was DDing with before, its not a real solution.

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I find going from 10DPS to 18DPS enough of an improvement to be worth my time If im forced to wear it for farming, I'd simply like it not to gimp me toooo much.

But i see your point, Its not a perfect solution... Making it a Key item though a second problem arises, Now you have a Key item, and the ability to wield a Thief's Knife... So you get TH7 instead. Wouldn't fix the problem, As i don't think making a Key Item prevent you from equipping a weapon is something they can program. no harm asking though.'

That being said, I still think the best solution if we were to get one is a completely new level 95+ Dagger that has "Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter+1" thats active when not paired with a Thief's Knife.

I had an idea that, You could do a series of quest that turned your Thief's Knife into "Treasure Hunter IV" Job Trait, but then the same problem as above arises, You can just buy a new Thief's Knife...

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Bleh. I wouldn't care if it was killing 100 mandies outside port windy.......... Unless its better than what I have now for damage dealing, or SE officially announces " This dagger will give ~%50 more drops than Thief Knife", I'm not wasting my time. as long as it goes in that slot and isn't better than what I was DDing with before, its not a real solution.

I would really like to see them tell every other DD class "OK, we decided that your new weapon will have super crappy damage, but an awesome added effect (that may or may not actually work, but you will have to use it just i case.) so you are gonna just have to put it on for the first hit of every fight from now on. Have fun."

Sometimes I wonder if they are confused and think this is just like swapping staffs on a mage job.

The idea of making TK a Key Item is really growing on me.

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Excuse me if i misinterpret this.
You're saying unless they make a TH+1 knife that replaces Thief's Knife that is on par with a top DD dagger, it's not a solution? Yeah, that's just not going to happen.

Here's my idea for revamping Thief's Knife:
Change it, so that it loses TH+1 but instead becomes an enchanted item that grants TH+1 status effect.
<1/1 0:10/[00:05:00, 0:10]>
Status effect would stay up for 1h, would be maintained even when weapon is unequipped and as long as you don't change job/zone, let's say. If SE felt really generous, it could even be undisppellable, like Reraise.

The problem with TK is, no matter what other stats you'll give it, it will be still junk compared to wielding Mandau/Twashtar (as an extreme example). You lose aftermath and TP as soon as you swap out Thief Knife for real weapon, which is bad for fights like Arch Dynamis Lord: everyone else is rocking their 300TP aftermaths, you either have to build TP/aftermath from scratch or don't swap out and keep fighting with junk weapon. Even in events like Dynamis or WoE, I doubt any LS leader would allow you to use Mandau/Twashtar over Mandau/Thief Knife, we all know it. We're there to TH b!tch, nothing more.
Bards don't lose TP when swapping instruments (at least I think) and can still use Angel Lyre (or whatever they choose) after buffing party with G.Horn/Daurdabla. Why do we have to lose TP/Aftermath if we want to perform our core function AND do respectable damage? Why do we have to spend the whole of Dynamis/WoE with a junk weapon equipped when we have a pair of relic/mythic/empyrean/whatever?

That's my idea and short reasoning, feel free to dislike/disagree!

Edit:
A permutation of the idea: Introduce an item (or job ability) that gives you status effect reflecting your current TH level. In this case, you equip all your TH+ items, use an item (or even a job ability) to freeze that TH level on your person. After that you can swap out TK and fight for 1h (let's say, could last longer or shorter) with constant TH6 on your person. This way, no changes would need to be done to Thief Knife (eases burden on SE of redesigning the weapon from scratch, introducing magian trials, latent effects etc.).

I liked your idea Zirael. Seems easier to implement than my idea of making the TH bonus take effect by keeping all TH items on inventory too.

A possible downside would be that everyone could be able to use TK for the charge. Then again, limiting it for THF main should be as easy as making race specific food.

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Originally Posted by Laphine

I liked your idea Zirael. Seems easier to implement than my idea of making the TH bonus take effect by keeping all TH items on inventory too.

A possible downside would be that everyone could be able to use TK for the charge. Then again, limiting it for THF main should be as easy as making race specific food.

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Thank you :)
Well, Thief Knife is already 'THF only', so no issues there. As for TH working from inventory, in that case you'd have all other jobs demanding for other items to work from inventory too. And the answer would be: PS2 limitations/game balance.
As a side note, anyone remembers those Diablo II talismans you kept in your inventory that were giving small (or sometimes huge) bonuses to you? One can only dream... (*looks back and remembers his THF's 76/80 inventory spaces...*)
Just let us freeze our max TH level for prolonged time somehow SE!

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Originally Posted by FANCY60

thf as a trial would work but it has to be difficult to attain like the emp weapons where in order to get +2 th, u will need 100 carabosse jem or something

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What? What?

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Originally Posted by Zirael

As for TH working from inventory, in that case you'd have all other jobs demanding for other items to work from inventory too. And the answer would be: PS2 limitations/game balance.
As a side note, anyone remembers those Diablo II talismans you kept in your inventory that were giving small (or sometimes huge) bonuses to you? One can only dream... !

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Yep yep lol. But if we could have effects straight from the inv it would be a small fix to in game macros as well. And yeah, diablo 2 hit me just after i posted it lol.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Excuse me if i misinterpret this.
You're saying unless they make a TH+1 knife that replaces Thief's Knife that is on par with a top DD dagger, it's not a solution? Yeah, that's just not going to happen.

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yes. exactly that. They can just transfer the current Thief Knife into a Key Item, and just have it overwrite the other one (you could wield that piece of crap if you want but it offers no additional effect once you have the Key Item).

If they just add it too a new dagger, all that will do is: give you two crappy daggers to swap, with one being slightly less crappy than the other.

You really wouldn't be pissed if they said "Hey, good job on those 5 different Trials of the Magian daggers that you built. now go ahead an toss em cuz they don't even have a place in your off hand now."?

Even if they add a dagger that "Replaces" Thief Knife, you still have to swap it out if you want to perform at your best. Wouldn't it be better if they made it so you didn't have to swap out daggers at all?

"If you need $10, you ask for $20. You don't ask for $5."

What they should do is just change things so that you don't lose TP at all when you swap out a weapon in the off hand. If you think about it, this isn't that unreasonable because WS damage depends on the dmg rating of the main hand weapon only. This would actually open up the game to many more weapon combinations that could be very interesting.

This is quite similar to not losing TP when you swap out ammo. For example, traditional crossbow rangers use holy bolts for TP build and then swap in higher damage bolts for the WS.

Doing this would make the crap damage and delay of the Thief's knife much more palatable.

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Originally Posted by Lokithor

What they should do is just change things so that you don't lose TP at all when you swap out a weapon in the off hand. If you think about it, this isn't that unreasonable because WS damage depends on the dmg rating of the main hand weapon only. This would actually open up the game to many more weapon combinations that could be very interesting.

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Yeah, nothing like swapping out a multi-attacking weapon for WS damage boosting weapon like a str/att, DA+10, TP bonus+100 etc one.

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Originally Posted by Lokithor

What they should do is just change things so that you don't lose TP at all when you swap out a weapon in the off hand. If you think about it, this isn't that unreasonable because WS damage depends on the dmg rating of the main hand weapon only. This would actually open up the game to many more weapon combinations that could be very interesting.

This is quite similar to not losing TP when you swap out ammo. For example, traditional crossbow rangers use holy bolts for TP build and then swap in higher damage bolts for the WS.

Doing this would make the crap damage and delay of the Thief's knife much more palatable.

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I actually quite like this idea. It would indeed open new options... stuff I've been wanting to do for quite some time. And while I can understand why it erases TP, it wouldn't also be horribly illogical if it didn't. I mean, I went by the argument that every time you change equipment that's in your hands (e.g. weapons), you lose TP. However, you still have to use your hands, and preferably put weapons down, to change other gear on you, so that wouldn't be too bad.

I always looked at losing TP as a means to not abuse TP-gain weapons, to WS in real weapons again. But you pretty much do that anyway with Dual Wielding weapons, because the offhanded weapon isn't very relevant to WS damage. So I think this is actually a nice option.

Also, if we extend it to the sub slot instead of just Dual Wield... /macros in Aegis for MDT set.

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Originally Posted by Lokithor

What they should do is just change things so that you don't lose TP at all when you swap out a weapon in the off hand. If you think about it, this isn't that unreasonable because WS damage depends on the dmg rating of the main hand weapon only. This would actually open up the game to many more weapon combinations that could be very interesting.

This is quite similar to not losing TP when you swap out ammo. For example, traditional crossbow rangers use holy bolts for TP build and then swap in higher damage bolts for the WS.

Doing this would make the crap damage and delay of the Thief's knife much more palatable.

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This would not solve situations where you quickly kill mobs and have little time to swap out.

Further, this would still break things. Being able to swap out between a Muse and Genbu's, or swapping from a Shield to a weapon to take advantage of the extra hit from DW, or swapping out a strap that gives double attack to one that gives STR.

If you exclude these arbitrarily (even more programing then easily upgrading a knife) from your change (more programing then easily upgrading a knife) that causes balance issues that would have to be examined between the two (yet more dev time).

Then of course, you could swap from offhanding a multihitter to a weapon that gives +20 Attack or +15 Accuracy, or Magic Attack Bonus, boosting the strength of a weapon skill just like swapping out a main hand weapon would.

The basic game mechanics are balanced in the way they are for a reason, and the suggestion of upgrading the dagger was simple, and suggesting something major to fix the issue when it could be fixed by a simple method that is already in place in the game just to avoid agreeing with a simple fix on principal is quite silly. This thread was meant to be a simple fix, not one that involves rewriting major parts of the game code to fix a simple problem.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Yeah, nothing like swapping out a multi-attacking weapon for WS damage boosting weapon like a str/att, DA+10, TP bonus+100 etc one.

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WS Damage and TP bonus weapons supposedly don't work in your offhand.

The TP Bonus ones do Work offhand

From Magian trials, not the AH ones.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

WS Damage and TP bonus weapons supposedly don't work in your offhand.

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WS Damage +10% Fusetto, doesn't but the TP Bonus + 100 Fusetto does work in offhand.

lol all mages would want to think they should be at the front line if they could rock DD crap and swap stave's in for casting :P I'm gonna link this post to the RED melee forum and watch them all jizz themselves.

While the idea might be a little out there, Allowing people to switch their sub hand weapon without losing TP May solve a good chunk of the problem.

At this point, I'm just not using my Thief's Knife anymore though... With the miniscule difference between TH5 and 6, its not worth the hit to my DPS. Considering i can upgrade it.

So yah, Imperfect solution, But i've just storage'd the damn thing for now until somethings done >_>

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Originally Posted by Economizer

If you exclude these arbitrarily (even more programing then easily upgrading a knife) from your change (more programing then easily upgrading a knife) that causes balance issues that would have to be examined between the two (yet more dev time).

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The programming effort amounts to about the time it takes to remove the line that resets TP.

And about the boni to WS you get from that, how is it different from the 13 other slots you can already change freely, that sometimes provide even larger boni? Att+20? There's better for most jobs. DA+10? For some jobs there's better. Only TP+100 would be exceptional I guess (at least for the WS where TP actually matters).

Would it push dual wielding DDs? Most certainly, is that a bad thing? No, because damage was one of the things people in here always complained about as well. Only dual wielding job that can somewhat DD is NIN, and they're not great at that either. BLU? Their damage comes from magical damage. DNC? They're THF+1 in terms of damage, which is like saying 0+1.

I don't see how this affects game balance so much, and if it does, just adjust the TP Bonus +100 Magian weapons to work from main hand only, that's the only massive damage boost I can see (and not for all WS either). The largest factor for any physical Weapon Skill is base damage, and by that it would still be limited the way it is now, since only main hand base damage is used for WS calculations.

I still say the easiest way to do this is to cap TH at +2 from gear

That'd certainly fix the problem with least amount of effort involved.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

WS Damage and TP bonus weapons supposedly don't work in your offhand.

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I said "WS damage boosting weapons". Weapons with +Att/Str, +DA, etc are weapons that boost WS damage through various means. Did not mean the WSDMG+10% whatever weapons.

Based on the concept that nothing SE plans for Thief really makes sense, here is my suggestion:

Upon trading the Thief's Knife to an Ebon Panel in the depths of sea, it vanishes from your inventory.

Two days later (game days or real life days, it's random), an NPC named "Thief's Wife" begins to follow you around. The Thief's Wife is that Galka with a bald spot and a fu manchu, wearing a full Bronze Subligar set and armed with an Ukonvasara which is never used or even drawn. If you buy another Thief's Knife and attempt to equip it, the Thief's Wife shouts "No Dear!" and such an action will not be allowed.

Your Treasure Hunter upgrade messages will be replaced by shouts from the Thief's Wife, with a +1 bonus taken into account. For variety, the Thief's Wife will shout things like "Treasure Hunter Level 7, Honey Bunny!" and "Good job Sweetums, that's Treasure Hunter Level 11!" By shout, I mean these things will literally appear in the shout channel using normal mechanics with one exception. It is not possible to filter them by any means.

When inevitably nothing drops, the Thief's Wife will perform a /comfort motion with you as the target. A look deep in the Thief's Wife's eyes, however, will let you know that the Thief's Wife still blames you for the absence of a drop. In this way, the process will mirror a real relationship.

So, development team, what do you think? This sounds like it's right up your alley.

Lmao at your reason for editing.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

Based on the concept that nothing SE plans for Thief really makes sense, here is my suggestion:

Upon trading the Thief's Knife to an Ebon Panel in the depths of sea, it vanishes from your inventory.

Two days later (game days or real life days, it's random), an NPC named "Thief's Wife" begins to follow you around. The Thief's Wife is that Galka with a bald spot and a fu manchu, wearing a full Bronze Subligar set and armed with an Ukonvasara which is never used or even drawn. If you buy another Thief's Knife and attempt to equip it, the Thief's Wife shouts "No Dear!" and such an action will not be allowed.

Your Treasure Hunter upgrade messages will be replaced by shouts from the Thief's Wife, with a +1 bonus taken into account. For variety, the Thief's Wife will shout things like "Treasure Hunter Level 7, Honey Bunny!" and "Good job Sweetums, that's Treasure Hunter Level 11!" By shout, I mean these things will literally appear in the shout channel using normal mechanics with one exception. It is not possible to filter them by any means.

When inevitably nothing drops, the Thief's Wife will perform a /comfort motion with you as the target. A look deep in the Thief's Wife's eyes, however, will let you know that the Thief's Wife still blames you for the absence of a drop. In this way, the process will mirror a real relationship.

So, development team, what do you think? This sounds like it's right up your alley.

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If I can Trick Attack my Thief's Wife, I'm down like China Town.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

If I can Trick Attack my Thief's Wife, I'm down like China Town.

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The Thief's Wife seems to move into position for Trick Attack when you engage a monster, but runs around the monster at Flee speed once the job ability Trick Attack is used. This, along with following the Thief constantly, is the only AI which the Thief's Wife possesses.

This AI is based on popular tactics used by various melee jobs.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

The Thief's Wife seems to move into position for Trick Attack when you engage a monster, but runs around the monster at Flee speed once the job ability Trick Attack is used. This, along with following the Thief constantly, is the only AI which the Thief's Wife possesses.

This AI is based on popular tactics used by various melee jobs.

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{lie}. They don't run at Flee speed.

A player experienced at avoiding Trick Attack has spent years honing his craft to perfection. He can make a feint to the left then pull hard to the right, or even back up just barely within melee range to force the Thief out of range. An NPC is incapable of both the malice and forethought needed for such techniques, so I figure a movement speed bonus would balance that out.