Salvage Gear Enhancements

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

This is good, but you need to do it the main jobs priority is high on the list of options, otherwise this could go badly.

How it should work (similar to anyway):

WAR - Weapon > JA > Armour
WHM - Magic > JA
RDM - Magic > Weapon

How we don't want it:

WAR - Magic > MP > HP
WHM - Weapon > HP > Weaponskills
RDM - HP > JA > Armour

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PUP - ability > ranged > magic

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Originally Posted by Camate

Changes to the Pathos of Alzadaal

After considering that these imbued items clutter inventory, and the time spent lotting and distributing them made it difficult to focus on strategy, we will be changing the system so that instead of using items to unlock limitations, they will randomly be removed when defeating monsters.

While it will no longer be possible to select the player you wish to unlock, we are planning to make adjustments so that the effects removed by defeating monsters will be more than enough to go around.

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This sounds terrible, bordering on the worst thing I can think of. There are NMs that depend on specific Pathos being active or removed from specific numbers of party members. I'm not looking forward to missing out on one of the Porrogo Madames because the unlocks got randomly distributed to party members, instead of the 3 designated members (groups typically only have 3 people these days anyway, but we'll occasionally have an extra who wants to go because he needs something).

Also not looking forward to having nothing unlocked after all of the mobs that can drop that unlock have been defeated.

If it's an atma/abyssite style unlock where if you get the unlock, the whole party gets the unlock, then it won't be so bad. But if it's 1 person randomly gets it with the possibility of no one getting it at all, then this is going to be as hated as the whole Voidwatch loot pool/personal box design.

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Originally Posted by Miloki

The more random FFXI gets, the less strategy matters. We all had Salvage down. You go after the cells you need, you get the number of drops you need and you move on. Now we really have to /pray to the Random Gods to not give the SCH HP unlock before the MNK and before we run outta mobs?

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I know this isn't obvious to most people, but SCH can't use Sublimation without the HP unlock. You'll be better off taking RDM if the system is as random as everyone is assuming it will be.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Changes to the Pathos of Alzadaal

After considering that these imbued items clutter inventory, and the time spent lotting and distributing them made it difficult to focus on strategy, we will be changing the system so that instead of using items to unlock limitations, they will randomly be removed when defeating monsters.

While it will no longer be possible to select the player you wish to unlock, we are planning to make adjustments so that the effects removed by defeating monsters will be more than enough to go around.

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I completely disagree with this. You would be changing strategy to luck. I've done salvage since it came out and by now I can call out cells very easily. That is strategy in itself. If you change it that way it seems more like luck over strategy. It will also alienate jobs even more. As it stands now it is possible to take other DD than MNK because they can get weapons unlocked at a later time. If it goes in random and impossible to predict who will get unlocked, it pretty much screams MNK/PUP only, those with native H2H skill.

I would rather have cells, that take strategy to decide who would unlock first than luck of who gets unlocked. NOT having to rely on gear but skill of a players knowledge of jobs/mp management/how to pull without links is what made salvage challenging. Yes gear helps BUT to be limited by what gear we could use and make the best out of the situation shows the teamwork and the skill of players.

I find this akin to Nyzul V2, that it's more about luck than skill, luck of how many floors you warp up. Look at how Nyzul V2 alienates jobs to only the highest dd and SCHs.

Please reconsider it being like current salvage where we the player can decide who to unlock and NOT the game deciding based on random number generation.

An easy way to fix it is just make the Cells rare, then they cant clog you nearly as easily. Also if you could, make it so where if someone has the pathos removed that the cell goes with then it can not normally fall to said person, only if they lot it.

If the drop rate remains the same as the old cells, then I completely love and support this-

So often when I did salvage it wasn't necessarily that we didn't get enough of a particular cell to unlock the right abilities for everyone, but more so that people tossed cells they didn't need and/or we killed mobs so fast that stuff fell to the floor.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

An easy way to fix it is just make the Cells rare, then they cant clog you nearly as easily. Also if you could, make it so where if someone has the pathos removed that the cell goes with then it can not normally fall to said person, only if they lot it.

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It still takes 10+ spaces. Short of making them like the TEMP items (where they are separate from inventory), it wont work.

REALLY depends on how they implement it. If it's kill 1 mob and there is a high chance that everyone gets that pathos unlocked, then it's great. If it's kill 1 mob and someone might get a random pathos unlocked, then it's beyond horrible.

The first encourages groups to focus on getting gear, the second encourages people to bring as few as possible to ensure the least number of people to divide random pathos unlocks on.

Camate can we get clarification? If it's randomly one member then that is absolutely beyond horrible and will result in players not getting key pathos's removed.

Good morning!

As there are quite a few questions in regards to how the new unlocking system will work, I’d like to explain about it just a bit more.

Unlocking System Changes

As mentioned in my previous post, the first objective of this is to relieve the stress related to worrying about cells so that everyone can enjoy this content more. This is why we are only removing the aspect where you need to use items to unlock limitations, but the process of defeating monsters in order to remove the limitations will not change.

The trends for unlocking by each area and each monster will carry over, so think of it as the same flow as in the past when it comes to the order of defeating monsters and all the tricks to unlock Pathos efficiently.

Who Will Be Unlocked

I think the biggest concern at the moment is that by unlocking taking place at random, it will no longer be possible to formulate strategies around which jobs and players get unlocked first. The original Salvage had cases where certain areas would only yield a certain amount of cells, or if cells were not obtained at the right moment you would have to wait a while to get them again, making it so each cell was carefully used.

For the higher tier expansion, the direction will be changing quite a bit, and as long as you don’t have severely bad luck, we would like to make it so that it will be possible to fully unlock all limitations. With that said, we will be making adjustments to the number of monsters and the unlocking rate so that the pace of unlocking is not so slow that it makes it not possible to get stuff done.

*We are currently looking into a similar treasure chest that appears upon entry like the original Salvage, and we are thinking to make it so players can choose who will be unlocked.

That luck has anything to do with what was once a strategic part of this event is what saddens me Camate. I like strategy more than luck. ;;

I like the idea of having the treasure chest at the start. It ensures that the base requirements are fulfilled to complete the run while the new system takes over.

Also, I have to do this.

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Originally Posted by Camate

...and as long as you don’t have severely bad luck...

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http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...h_Pephredo.jpg

:|

The starting chest, or having a minor amount of control over the cells you get, dramatically improved the original Salvage and made it far more accessible. I really hope that you do the same thing with this.

I think the luck he was referring to could be like constant dying or dcing

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Originally Posted by Kalilla

Also, I have to do this.


http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...h_Pephredo.jpg

:|

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http://www.goradio.com/polopoly_fs/1...prahs-bees.gif

Gotta say, I'm really not looking forward to 18 people fighting over the 1 35 NeoUsukane piece that drops every 15 runs. Really hope this is ACTUALLY 6-man friendly.

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Originally Posted by Chamaan

Gotta say, I'm really not looking forward to 18 people fighting over the 1 35 NeoUsukane piece that drops every 15 runs. Really hope this is ACTUALLY 6-man friendly.

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This is just a guess, but I'm assuming 6 people will be the norm for this, where 3-5 would be doable with certain job setups and good gear.

Or even better, could be a KI that you trade to the dude in exchange for a piece of choice like Nyzul.

Why not just keep the entry chest the same as it is now? :/ That way you know 100% that your healer will be able to heal and that your DDs will be able to melee without being a monk main.

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Originally Posted by Chamaan

Gotta say, I'm really not looking forward to 18 people fighting over the 1 35 NeoUsukane piece that drops every 15 runs. Really hope this is ACTUALLY 6-man friendly.

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just make sure its whoever got the killshot for the right bee. Then there won't be an argument.

think you should leave the chest have it were each person gets to choose 2 things to get removed. so if you a mage just run up and select magic and etc. have the chest have a maxx number on it each time a person removes something number goes down. each person has a chance to remove something but the group only gets like 12 choices.

isnt there a run where u need like 1-2 fully unlocked people to go further past a certain door? I hope they put enuf unlockin mobs before that door so that if u have 6 people or more u dont get screwed out of it

All this seems WAY too complicated (especially with the initial chest). Just stick to putting the "rare" flags on cells, this way our invo is not crowded. Another system I thought of was letting mobs drop a chest with unlocking KI inside.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Or even better, could be a KI that you trade to the dude in exchange for a piece of choice like Nyzul.

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Thats the way to do smart content.

Zhaylom you need 3 unlocked so ya frog nightmares incoming

I did however think it was funny their first statement said they were removing cells because it made strategizing too hard, than second statement said they know making it random will ruin strategies.

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Originally Posted by Camate

as long as you don’t have severely bad luck

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http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/97/ptcsigsmall.jpg

Somebody needs to sig Camate's "as long as you don't have severely bad luck," since severely bad luck basically describes half this game (as others have wittily described).

In all seriousness, the devs need to look at why Trials of the Magians (progressively working towards a sure thing) were more popular than Voidwatch (huge luck of the draw where even if the stupidly rare item dropped, it wouldn't always go to somebody who wanted it), and think long and hard about this decision.

Also, I'm still flipping that table if the improved Morrigan's Set doesn't have improved melee stats. We all saw the butchering you did to the Goliard Saio and Cuffs!

Instead of KI's what would be the chance of make them temp items? That way you don't have to worry about filling up your inventory and you can still dole them out to those who need them first.

I would like to highlight one thing for you naysayers.

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With that said, we will be making adjustments to the number of monsters and the unlocking rate so that the pace of unlocking is not so slow that it makes it not possible to get stuff done.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

I would like to highlight one thing for you naysayers.

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Same people who claimed Mythics would be easier than relics.

Why they can't just make the cells rare or temp items is beyond me.

The random number generator isn't random, and therefore some people will have a great time with the new system, whereas the experience will be ruined overall for others (like VW).

Well the biggest problem is contrary to what devs are saying salvage once the chest at start was added became very easy to manage and setup strategies specific to gear type you were after. Cells were never a problem for my group once we had systems in place. The only people i can see complaining about this are groups who had poor cell distribution or peeps that afk'ed screwed them a lot.

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Originally Posted by Samosa

Instead of KI's what would be the chance of make them temp items? That way you don't have to worry about filling up your inventory and you can still dole them out to those who need them first.

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Good idea, and you could also only allow one cell of each type. The initial chest could be like the ones in abyssea where you pick temps or KI.

This would not be possible for normal salvage, because some NMs/strat require trading cells to a ??? but that's definitely marginal.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

All this seems WAY too complicated (especially with the initial chest). Just stick to putting the "rare" flags on cells, this way our invo is not crowded. Another system I thought of was letting mobs drop a chest with unlocking KI inside.

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imo checking coffer for ki is worst than loting/passing

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Originally Posted by Samosa

Instead of KI's what would be the chance of make them temp items? That way you don't have to worry about filling up your inventory and you can still dole them out to those who need them first.

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because they can't put temps in treasure pool

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Originally Posted by hiko

because they can't put temps in treasure pool

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I guess you've never had someone open a chest or kill a mob and have you acquire a temp item from it then huh?

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

I guess you've never had someone open a chest or kill a mob and have you acquire a temp item from it then huh?

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I never had someone open chest/kill mob and have me acquire the temp item i need when other guy in pt got the another item he need and 3rd people got the 3rd item (without everybody checking the coffer that is imo worst than lot/passing)

I would like to also point out that IF this change occurs that control over how is unlocked is TOTALLY placed on luck.

Here is my reasoning:
At the moment cells drop from mobs, with Treasure Hunter we at least can influence the drop rate of cells, granted yes we can't control which cells drop at time at least was can affect it. Also with the way current salvage is we can decide how to best use of the cells. In both cases the choice is up to the player, who cells go to and if to include TH to help improve chances of cell drop.

If it's changed to randomly unlock a person in party depending on what mob is killed. SE is taking all control over this issue, there is currently NO way to affect a luck based decision decided from SE, UNLESS some type of Proc !! process is being added, which many of the playerbase has spoken against adding to salvage.

I see way less skill in turning unlocks based on luck. SE are you trying to make the game really dumbed down? For me salvage was the best balance of luck and skill(MINUS stingy ramparts, where it's luck to see the NM then even with TH luck to get the drop, Luck upon Luck is the worst) If it's going to be luck based, the drops better have a high drop rate that would be the balance point if we have to rely on luck to unlock gear.

All that is needed for salvage to be popular again is increase alex drops, new gear, and ways to upgrade existing salvage gear to the point that it's worth it again. You don't need to totally revamp the system SE. The current system works and is fair in terms of skill/luck. The new system would shift the balance to mostly luck, which I'm pretty sure most of the playerbase would agree we do not want.

I end with: SKILL > LUCK!.

Skill > Luck but SE doesn't do that with events anymore, you should have learned that from the last few. Its all about luck now, sadly they have done it again, by ripping out an old strategic part of an event and replacing it with luck mechs like we always wanted...

As long as the luck factor is not as hardcore as neo-nyzul and requires the use of some kind of cheating, I don't mind. Then again maybe that's what they want so they can finally start banning people since they obviously don't care about all the people doing it in nyzul.

Assuming it's possible to finish a run with a skilled group nearly every time barring extreme bad luck, like old salvage back at 75 cap, I can deal with everything else. I never minded the crappy drop rates because at least we were able to kill the mobs

The only runs I ever hated that were considered luck based was Bhaflau. Was terrible to do every floor and get no NM on any rampart. That aside salvage worked well, strategies were formed for how each run could be accomplished and the system as a whole is understood. To change that now to all luck based and non-severe bad luck is laughing in the face of the community at this point.