Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

So how about, instead of talking about how things "Should be" in the opinion of one or a few people, we talk about how things bloody are? That was the entire point, wasn't it?

Right now? In the context of Abyssea? Summoner sucks. Don't complain when you can't get shit done as quickly as everyone else with it. Nothing is or ever was stopping you from using something more efficient.

The point of the job system is to give you the freedom to play what you want, when you want, and not have to create a new character for each of them. The point is NOT to force everyone to play all jobs and use the absolute most perfect one for every imaginable situation.

By the way, f*** efficiency. I'm sick of hearing that word. There's more to the fking game than just being efficient. If this is all you're concerned with, then you have a problem. The game has become a job at that point, not a game.

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Right now? In the context of Abyssea? Summoner sucks. Don't complain when you can't get shit done as quickly as everyone else with it.

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I will complain. I will keep complaining until something is done about it to make not just summoner, but ever other job that people have slapped the 'LOL' prefix on until it's not "LOL" anymore. No one should be f***ing ridiculed for playing their favorite jobs.

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There's more to the fking game than just being efficient. If this is all you're concerned with, then you have a problem. The game has become a job at that point, not a game.

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Again, then don't complain when you have to make a special group or get lower drop rate because you can't proc.

Okay. Play Summoner then. Get fewer drops and kill slower.

I. Do. Not. Care. No one here does.

Just don't complain about not getting drops or kills as quickly as other people doing it the most effective way.

Christ, it's like you can't decide if you care about drops or not.

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Again, then don't complain when you have to make a special group or get lower drop rate because you can't proc.

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Again, I will complain, because I shouldn't have to get a lower drop rate because I didn't pick the top tier job.

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Okay. Play Summoner then. Get fewer drops and kill slower.

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Again, I shouldn't have to get fewer drops and kill slower just because I didn't pick the top tier job. There shouldnt even BE #$%*ing tiers. The jobs should be balanced.

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Christ, it's like you can't decide if you care about drops or not.

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Everyone cares about drops. But drops should't rule the method by which you play. You should be able to get drops whether you want to use summoners and puppetmasters, or rangers and paladins.

THERES MORE TO THE GAME THAN GETTING DROPS THOUGH!

Someone really just does not understand the situational value of job selection.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Someone really just does not understand the situational value of job selection.

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someone really just does not understand that this isn't about situationalness.

Summoner is currently of comparatively low value in more situations than any other job, and the few things it does well are not enough to make up for this. It needs an overall increase in power.

We should be arguing about how to make less-respected jobs better, not the right to suck or be awesome.

When every job is good at everything, the individual identity of each job becomes meaningless.

Jobs are unique because they do things differently, not equally. They are all more and less effective than one another in a given context. Strategy in FFXI consists of picking out what job combinations have the strengths necessary to best work on the situation at hand, and lack the weaknesses most exploitable by the situation at hand.

The entire FFXI job system is situational. That is how it was designed. That is how it is maintained. That is how it will be for ever and ever. If you don't understand the niche strengths and the general weaknesses of your job, you do not understand your job. Period.

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When every job is good at everything, the individual identity of each job becomes meaningless.

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No one said everything had to be good at everything. Summoner however is good at the fewest things and worst at the most.

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If you don't understand the niche strengths and the general weaknesses of your job, you do not understand your job.

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I fully understand Summoner better than you ever will. one part of one two hour ability and like about 3 fights in the game is not enough to be good at. Summoner is not designed to be "terrible, except when you need Perfect Defense.
It would not be designed with a wide range of damaging attacks and support effects if it was not designed to be useful for those things.

Let's look at another job, like Monk. Monk is good at almost everything. There's hardly a situation in the game where you can't use a monk, except where magic is absolutely required and MNK doesn't have any.

The current spectrum of things summoner is used for is unacceptable and needs to be addressed. SE is just too afraid of pet jobs having too much power.

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Summoner however is good at the fewest things and worst at the most.

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Didn't you spend over half this thread talking about how good smn is?

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Didn't you spend over half this thread talking about how good smn is?

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F all that. Summoner is terrible. You and GG spent the whole thread arguing about how bad it is, but then you say that's Okay, because summoner can help kill Absolute Virtue! Nothing else really matters!

Sure, I tried to argue that summoner is better than people are giving it credit for, but it's still not good enough.Then, when I try going along with you for the sake of argument, you all change your argument. Suddenly, summoner isn't bad, it just has niche uses! It doesn't need any other use, it has perfect defense! Summoner is perfect, flawless job that excells at pressing two buttons and not using 99% of the effects and abilities bestwoed upon it!

Why in the fakring world do you NOT see a problem with this?

Baaaackpeddle

Oh I know that Summoner's terrible. And I know that it probably has the least real uses of any job in the game.

I just find it funny that you suddenly agree when it helps your current cause of the day.

Protip: I'd be all for making summoner useful in more situations. I even pointed out that your staunch defense of Summoner as "Fine as it is" was nothing short of counterproductive when the job needs an update. But do I think all jobs have the innate right to be useful at everything? No way. Do I think Summoner should be good in Abyssea? Naw, that's just silly.

Summoner has a niche use. It's not a matter of making them DD #2432. It's about content which actually makes use of Summoner's talents on occasion. Fortunately, Voidwatch does that. Summoner is awesome in Voidwatch. It's just too bad it's too "hard" for your average player to handle just yet.

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Summoner has a niche use.

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The nichest niche in the whole entire game. Summoner deserves to be more useful than it is now. Even when it came out, everyone was thinking it was going to be a powerful job- After all, Summoner has a reputaiton for power in the Final Fantasy series. FFXI's summoner should be able to live up to that reputation.

The first part of this thread was not about summoner being the best, or even close to it. It was about squeezing out a few extra drops of power on a job that sorely needs more capability.

I was NEVER the one in the thread saying SMN is the greatest job ever. That was Dallas.

As far as voidwatch: Looking over it, it's the rewards that are turning people off, not the difficulty (And events are always most difficult when they are first introduced). There are some good situational items in it, but the Sphere stuff seems to be a bust (it doesn't affect the wearer), and other special items from it e.g. the deluxe animator turned out to be worthless pieces of garbage. Plus, many people still want their empyrean gear more than they want anything from voidwatch, even if it's a little better.

On top of that, people don't like the drop system, and I've had friends telling me they don't get diddly for drops even with the lights all maxed up.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

In all fairness, at least Korpg and LLH appear to be bandwagon DG SMN. Bandwagon players are at no risk of replacing competent players.

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Assuming you are competent of course.

Which you have proved otherwise.

Summoner has more uses than Perfect Defense, brah.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Summoner has more uses than Perfect Defense, brah.

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No other use where it's truly needed or can't be easily replaced by something else, other than job specific fights.

I don't get what the fuss is, SE is attempting with Voidwatch to make ANY job suitable for showing up given the procs are randomized every time. Only have a BST? Show up, you can at the bare minimum cover any "beastmaster job abilities" messages.

It's an event where SMN (among others) dominates and WAR get pummeled repeatedly by constant AOE bombardment.

Wanna see a DD die fast? Crowd Celaeno or Voidwrought.

The main problem with the system is that the loot sucks and distribution has taken Walk of Echoes fail to the next level. No lootpools means the kills feel shallow and the personal chests can reward one person with awesome and the next person with boatloads of fail. Doubly so if a mage gets a melee drop or vice/versa.

Regardless of what I feel about it, Voidwatch is here to stay for 3 more updates. Guess what that means? SMN is locked in for at least 3 more updates of being desirable barring any major change to the current system.

I think the real issue is Abyssea fatigue anyway. People are tired of the one-stop shop (no alternatives) the expansions provide as the rest of the game is lulz and not worthy of mention. It's really not that difficult a feeling to understand.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Summoner has more uses than Perfect Defense, brah.

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After all the smn can do this smn can do that just fine. There's no reason we shouldn't be able to get into a pt

Watch all the "we can't do this we can't do that" that will be directed towards this

Well, it's nice that the proc system is more fair to all jobs in Voidwatch, but I'd still rather be wanted because of what the job itself is capable of, not because they need to be present to get more drops.

Did you really just not read his post?

Summoner is great in Voidwatch because AoEs bloody hurt. Distanced, TP-free damage is great when shit will tear a WAR or MNK apart in 2 seconds flat.

Again: Not my fault the average FFXI player has absolutely no experience with voidwatch because it's "too hard'.

As I said before, I haven't really seen people complaining about it being hard. The complaints i've seen were that it's unrewarding. I've heard stories of building lights and killing NMs only to get a worthless synth item or two.

Within my LS, no one seems to have any interest in doing it. It's not because of the difficulty.

Correct, Voidwatch is not Abyssea. It really isn't. Really, SE needs to put some good drops in for part II or a fantastic opportunity to shift the dynamic of XI will be lost. The only reason its not popular is because the system feels so... thrown together to say the least.

But like I said, 3 more updates are being dedicated to this system.

You can easily be oneshot on WAR from stuff as simple as Arm Cannon from Voidwrought. You're almost always going to want a SMN to keep the pressure on the mob while you bother around to find procs.

The ability to loop between physical pacts and magical make SMN the go-to job for these mobs. BST pets simply cant keep up, PUP can do magical damage but lacks ranged physical offense and Ranger often has to deal with pulling hate which could easily drop the curtains on your group.

SMN is the best option with Ranger, Corsair and Paladin getting off the bench and back into the fray.

Jobs that excel in Abyssea like BLU (my favorite job lol) become garbage against mobs with superior defenses and evasion, NIN runs into the same problems that plagued it pre-Abyssea and WAR/MNK aren't so great when you don't have the huge MP pools to sponge everything while having capped acc/tons of crit and tons of att.

If SE continues on its current path you're going to see a mass exodus from some classes cause Voidwatch goes back to the old-style of sword/board + support + ranged/run in and run out style XI.

All this talk about it is making me more interested in Voidwatch. But for some reason, no one else in the LS feels this way.

If Voidwatch is bringing back fights where hate free spike damage and rangers and such are wanted again, I'm all for that. I just hope that it isn't a one time thing and that these jobs will continue to be useful in the future.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Correct, Voidwatch is not Abyssea. It really isn't. Really, SE needs to put some good drops in for part II or a fantastic opportunity to shift the dynamic of XI will be lost.

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Wait, what equipment slots can they add on to it?

I mean, we got great JSE armors for most jobs, I don't think they want to mess with those.

Emp weapons shouldn't be overshadowed by dropable items.

Only way they can make Earrings/Rings better is by making them Att+20, Double/Triple Attack +5%, MAB+10 or something like that. But when it comes to dropable items, a WAR only would get MAB+10 and a BLM only would get Double/Triple Attack+5%.

But still. SMNs should note that they are great at what they are. Al, I think you are gasping for air now for wanting all jobs to be equal. What would the point in having different jobs if they are all equal?

Summoners can most efficiently keep everybody Hasted. :>

They could definitely still stand to get some more love, though. <3



(Actually, now the I look at the OP again, I can't see how anybody could claim that the Mythic Staves lack utility. Where purely back-line oriented mages got the short end of the stick concerning Relics and Empyreans, they definitely got forces to be reckoned with with the more job-specific Mythics. Shame that obtaining Mythic Weapons, particularly the level 90 versions, is about 100 times worse than pulling teeth. :< )

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

Summoners can most efficiently keep everybody Hasted. :>

They could definitely still stand to get some more love, though. <3

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What's keeping the WHM from hasting everyone?

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What would the point in having different jobs if they are all equal?

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huh? I'm not wanting all jobs to be "equal," I'm wanting them to be "balanced."

Except in a few special cases summoner is generally regarded as inferior as a whole. I am waiting for the day when summoners are respected, not LOL'd, for being summoners. You never see people going around talking, "Oh, Summoner? yeah, that's a good job. Let's invite him!" and that's the beef I have.

And we come right back down to personal respect.

Which has nothing to do with anything.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

What's keeping the WHM from hasting everyone?

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Hastega is still more efficient overall. Zero delay from player error (including an emergency need for Cures or -na spells), not to mention more bang for your MP cost (though you could argue that part away with Light Arts), and everybody happily receives their Haste crack at once, rather than waiting to be next-in-line.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Just don't complain about not getting drops or kills as quickly as other people doing it the most effective way.

Christ, it's like you can't decide if you care about drops or not.

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I hope you realize that the players who change jobs for every fight, instead of learning how to play one job well, have to collect 10 times the drops.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I hope you realize that the players who change jobs for every fight, instead of learning how to play one job well, have to collect 10 times the drops.

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I like how you made a false comparison between changing jobs and having to learn jobs.

ITT: Learning jobs is hard. Collecting drops efficiently is harder.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

huh? I'm not wanting all jobs to be "equal," I'm wanting them to be "balanced."

Except in a few special cases summoner is generally regarded as inferior as a whole. I am waiting for the day when summoners are respected, not LOL'd, for being summoners. You never see people going around talking, "Oh, Summoner? yeah, that's a good job. Let's invite him!" and that's the beef I have.

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Only person who is making SMN into a loljob is Dallas. And that is with his attitude.

SMNs are respected now as is, without demanding them to be a top tier DD or healer or buffer or "they have to melee or gtfo" type of attitudes.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I like how you made a false comparison between changing jobs and having to learn jobs.

ITT: Learning jobs is hard. Collecting drops efficiently is harder.

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Who cares about efficient when I'm not the person who has to have a Ukon, and a competent DNC, WHM, and BRD to look good on a calculator? I need 1 job's gear, and every update I finish collecting those items in a matter of weeks.

This is why even on your pretty calculator, I deal 4 times the damage of the BP/release SMN. While BG cheerleaders spend all this time trying to prevent people from playing SMN, I have the free time to discover things like DG. We know you don't care about the job. The best thing you could do for SMN is get far away from it.

You're oblivious. You don't deal 4 times the damage of a BP/release Summoner ever. You don't deal 2.5x the damage of a BP/release Summoner unless you're rocking Haste Samba, dual Marches, Haste, and Red Curry buns.

You don't even eat food, as far as I can tell from your posts. The damage you, personally, add is laughable.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

And we come right back down to personal respect.

Which has nothing to do with anything.

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Not perosonal respect, job respect. It is the job, not the person, thatt is the target of LOLjob BS.

Exactly. It is the job. Not the person. I'd ask how that affects you, but we'll just begin this whole crapfest all over again from the beginning.

Bottom line? The Relic staff, Mythic staves, and Empyrean staff have utility, just not nearly as much as other weapons of a comparable stature.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

There are 4 types of jobs: Ukon WAR, and crap.

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I barely skimmed the previous two pages, but thought I'd pull this quote out. See, this is the kind of post that completely convinces me he's an elaborate troll.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You're oblivious. You don't deal 4 times the damage of a BP/release Summoner ever. You don't deal 2.5x the damage of a BP/release Summoner unless you're rocking Haste Samba, dual Marches, Haste, and Red Curry buns.

You don't even eat food, as far as I can tell from your posts. The damage you, personally, add is laughable.

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He wouldn't even do that much damage with all those buffs.

Because he wouldn't be in a party like that, he rather be by himself all the time, he said so too.

Edit: Oh shi, 1000th post on this thread.