Something I just wanted to mention really quick because most people, even life-long thieves, don't seem to understand that there are other situations in which you can make hide work. Skeletons are one of the best examples; they detect by sound and HP, yet you can hide from them as long as your HP is above 75%. There are other more annoying ways to hide from other creatures, such as popping a deodorizer before using hide to successfully hide from certain scent-tracking enemies. This is all mostly a moot point though seeing as how hide is largely an underpowered ability. My opinion is that it should automatically succeed on anything that isn't an NM, and on NMs it should still be an automatic hate reset on the thf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyla420
Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.
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07-26-2011, 04:12 PMYinnyth
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07-26-2011, 04:28 PMNeboThe major limiting factor with Hide is whether or not the monster tracks by smell. If it doesn't track by scent, or doesn't have True sight/true hearing you can hide from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yinnyth
The problem is there aren't very many worthwhile things at all that meet those requirements.
In the case of mobs like Skeletons that detect sound, if you don't run away with the quickness imediately after you hide, they will just reaggro you again because hide doesn't give sneak. -
07-26-2011, 05:35 PMLeonlionheart
Because THF gets TH, they ALWAYS have a spot in a group.
Salvage.
Nyzul.
HNM.
Sky.
Limbus.
Dynamis.
Abyssea.
Everything.
I think this should be very highly noted. I don't think it should make them gimp in every other situation, but I also don't think that THF, which is also, in a way, a high survivability job, needs too much else.
However their "Enmity Control" aspect is completely useless to a point (at least at the moment). If they could shed their accumulated hate onto someone else, it'd be an even more highly desired job.
It seems that SE's "vision" is to have all jobs equally desired, and THF just doesn't have that problem.
Personally I think they should go back to enmity control and spike damage (along with TH), but maybe that's just me. -
07-26-2011, 05:43 PMAlderinYep. If you don't like it, do something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebo
And they arent meant to be. You are comparing a heavy DD to a single-handed dagger wielding job. Of course stacked WS's arent going to compare with WAR ws's. So your having a Q.Q that WAR are getting a JA that they would get with /THF natively, and yet you are whinging that you don't have Dual Wield II+ natively unless you /NIN or /DNC? Same concept here... "Other jobs should stop stealing our unique traits and abilities. Yet I think we need dual wield from NIN & DNC". Q.Q more.Quote:
No, this JA is retarded. Stacked THF WS are not even as strong as WAR WS. If they get the ability to force Crits outside on non-empyrean WS that can't crit naturally...WITHOUT the retarded positional restrictions...seriously, gtfo with that bs.
Besides, if you can't land a SA you have a crap tank and should get a better one. If you can't land a TA then you should change jobs. The "positional restrictions" are fine as they are. Lets run upto a mob's face, and "Sneak Attack" his eyeballs..
I would requote what you wrote but ironically it's in the same post. Hell I will do it: "No, this JA is retarded. Stacked THF WS are not even as strong as WAR WS."...Quote:
Seriously, why does every herp a derp come in here after not reading the thread, or the concerns mentioned and throw this retarded statement around. NO ONE in this thread has asked for this.....or said THF should be this.
Comments like that is where I was getting my aforementioned statement from. People Q.Q'ing that their damage does not compare to a WAR.
Tanks are the hate control, THF is the backup. Always has been like this, always will. If a tank is struggling to hold hate, then the THF is there to support them. A little bit less relevant in Abyssea as the tanks are usually the main DD in the party, however if you do anything outside Abyssea, THF still plays a role in hate control.Quote:
I think it is pretty stupid to think that a THF can "control" hate in any endgame situation....at all. Trick attack is dependant on *GASP* DAMAGE.....like nowai. And Accomplorator timers are too long/shared (not to mention party only) to be able to control....anything.
As for TA & hate control - Yes of course it has to do with DAMAGE as you put. Learn to increase that damage with modifiers. As mentioned above - has a much less of a point in Abyssea but can still be used efficiently in areas like Voidwatch.
Hmmm, I think I seem to be missing something here, what is WHM a specialist for? Healing. What is a BLM a specialist for? Nuking. PLD? Tanking..Quote:
I think maybe....juuust maybe, you just don't know what you are talking about.
What about THF? oh yes right... to get our loot to drop! TREASURE HUNTER!
If you want to play a different role we come back to the original point here - level a different job!
Disclaimer: My THF was the 3rd job I ever had at lvl 90 (Grinded from 1-75 without abyssea of course). It is what I consider quite well geared, and I am not a complete dumbarse because I know the only use for THF's for end-game events is and will always be TH. Apart from TH & the occasional pull - THF will never be able to do anything better then other jobs.
Peace. -
07-26-2011, 06:13 PMKarbuncleI don't agree with this. We love the job, and we have the right to ask for improvements. Helping THF isn't going to nerf other jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alderin
THF Was originally intended to be a DD. I don't know if you've noticed Job traits like Assassin, and Triple Attack, or Abilities like Sneak Attack, and Trick attack, or Massive boosts to Haste/DD stats on our Empyrean. THF from the beginning was a DPS/DD job. The problem is since level 75 the gap between THF and other DD has widened substantionally. We're asking the gap be lessened a bit.Quote:
And they arent meant to be. You are comparing a heavy DD to a single-handed dagger wielding job. Of course stacked WS's arent going to compare with WAR ws's. So your having a Q.Q that WAR are getting a JA that they would get with /THF natively, and yet you are whinging that you don't have Dual Wield II+ natively unless you /NIN or /DNC? Same concept here... "Other jobs should stop stealing our unique traits and abilities. Yet I think we need dual wield from NIN & DNC". Q.Q more.
Secondly, We do have Dual Wield II.
"I have no idea how Enmity works"?Quote:
Besides, if you can't land a SA you have a crap tank and should get a better one. If you can't land a TA then you should change jobs. The "positional restrictions" are fine as they are. Lets run upto a mob's face, and "Sneak Attack" his eyeballs..
I'm sorry but even the best tank hits an Enmity cap. While I'm not arguing its easy to land SA or TA as long as you're not Solo or the only Tank, It does not make your response any less uninformed.
I don't deny SA and TA do not need their position restrictions removed, but acting like all you need is a good tank is incorrect. Trick Attack is always easy enough to land, SA is generally the problem if you're getting to hate cap. This is only a big problem in Abyssea, So i don't really even consider it a big issue. Because Abyssea is ending.
Theoretically SE gave us SA and TA to help our WS. I direct your attention to Mercy Stroke, Shark Bite, Mandalic Stab, Viper bite, and Rudra's Storm. all terrible Ws's unless paired with SA or TA. it stands to reason when paired with SA or TA we should do similar damage? Well on somethings we do, So i can't complain too much about this.Quote:
I would requote what you wrote but ironically it's in the same post. Hell I will do it: "No, this JA is retarded. Stacked THF WS are not even as strong as WAR WS."...
Regardless of the fact it all comes back to the fact THF Was originally intended to take a DD's spot, Do you think we had TH for Exp parties? lol... no. We were there for Damage, and Trick Attack. We're not asking to transcend gods, we're asking for the ever larger gap in our power to be shorted a little. if you read the thread, You'd understand that.
No ones QQ'ing to that? We're QQ'ing our damage is awful. We compare it to WAR/MNK/SAM because those are easily identified as the top-tier DD (In/out Abyssea). We never wanted our DD to compare to a WARs, We're asking that the large gap between our powered be filled slightly.Quote:
Comments like that is where I was getting my aforementioned statement from. People Q.Q'ing that their damage does not compare to a WAR.
Thats originally all i wanted. I'm leaning more toward party/support utility at this point, But I don't think we'll even see that if the DEV team thinks Despoil is too overpowered.
It has never "Always been like this". THF has never been needed for Hate control short of Exp parties, even then You can make an exp party without a THF, its not required in any way. To be frank, its a useless role.Quote:
Tanks are the hate control, THF is the backup. Always has been like this, always will. If a tank is struggling to hold hate, then the THF is there to support them. A little bit less relevant in Abyssea as the tanks are usually the main DD in the party, however if you do anything outside Abyssea, THF still plays a role in hate control.
Beyond that, not a single Endgame event required a THF For Enmity control in the history of the entire game. Ever. Because no one needed it.
Same goes for right now. No endgame event needs a THF for back-up Enmity control, Because if your group has IQ higher than "potato" they can kill an NM just fine without "Enmity control", because everyone there knows how to do that already. Including tanks.
Point is the "DAMAGE" through "TRICK ATTACK" and its "MODS" is terrible. Even Stacking full AGI/ATK like you're suppose too if you're not meleeing, (Because not meleeing you disregard haste factors into DPS for SA/TA), The Damage is barely a noticeable increase. Ever fought Voidwrought? Go check your Average TA numbers. They're about the same as a Great Axe Critical hit you can do once per minute.Quote:
As for TA & hate control - Yes of course it has to do with DAMAGE as you put. Learn to increase that damage with modifiers. As mentioned above - has a much less of a point in Abyssea but can still be used efficiently in areas like Voidwatch.
AGI adds 1 base damage to your weapon with TA. Even a MIthran THF in full TA gear outside Abyssea will likely just reach ~180 Base Damage weapon, thats just about 50 away from a normal Great axe.Toss in the fact WARs have much higher attack and buffs than us, including more STR, the damage isn't very far. So when you take into account how little damage trick attack does, you see how its not really great as Enmity control
It doesn't do NOTHING, But its not needed at all.
No one has debated that Ever? We know all we're good for is TH. We're asking our role extend beyond that. for instance, WHM is also a great Buffer, and Decent Enfeebler, BLM is a good Enfeebler as well, RDM can Cure, Buff, Enfeebled, etc. PLD can Tank and Cure, as well as provide minimal buffs and Support.Quote:
Hmmm, I think I seem to be missing something here, what is WHM a specialist for? Healing. What is a BLM a specialist for? Nuking. PLD? Tanking..
What about THF? oh yes right... to get our loot to drop! TREASURE HUNTER!
THF right now is TH, and very very limited Enmity abilities. If you read my posts you see im moving slightly away from damage and more toward Utility gains.
The problem is THF was never really prepared for its "Endgame role" early on. Back when i first played FFXI, before CoP release, THF was a DD, SATA>Viper Bite to distortion combo was epic. I leveled the job expecting to be a DD at endgame.Quote:
Disclaimer: My THF was the 3rd job I ever had at lvl 90 (Grinded from 1-75 without abyssea of course). It is what I consider quite well geared, and I am not a complete dumbarse because I know the only use for THF's for end-game events is and will always be TH. Apart from TH & the occasional pull - THF will never be able to do anything better then other jobs.
I was wrong, We were TH's. You can't blame THF's for wanting back a little of what they had leveling up, power. Our Party-play is so vastly different than our endgame. Seriously what other job is like that? As a THF in an exp party your job is to kick ass and take names, you did decent damage.
Endgame, You hit the mob and Afk No other job has this massive shift i job role based on exp situation or endgame. It doesn't prepare the job for it.
Party Situations:
WHM - Healer, Buffer, Make-shift Enfeebler.
RDM - enfeebler, Healing, Refresh, Buffing.
BLM - Nuker, Limited Enfeebles, Can Cure.
THF - DD, Limited Enmity control (Trick Attack). Puller.
Endgame
Same roles for WHM, RDM, and BLM.
THF? Treasure Hunter. We're not needed for Enmity control, TA is useless as a tool for that in endgame content, Collab/accomp work well, but with no means to dump said Enmity it adds up on the THF, eventually killing it or giving the THF hate, our Damage is crap so we're not considered a DD anymore either.
I don't know where to go from here, Sorry. -
07-26-2011, 06:16 PMNeboTHF does not have a spot in: any mission fight, any add on fight, any KSNM, BCNM, ENM, ANNM, Voidwatch (that little light fix they added did functionally squat), non-abyssean exp party, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
I disagree:Quote:
I also don't think that THF, which is also, in a way, a high survivability job, needs too much else.
MNK + Ridiclous Counter rates
DNC + Crazy insane survivability
NIN + Way more survivabiliy options than THF could ever dream of
WAR + PDT/MDT sets
etc.
Yes it does. When you do abyssea (farming emp weapons items aside), you make sure you have your proc jobs first, and then if you have a slot left over, you get TH6. TH6 is an icing on the cake afterthought, not a prerequisit. You would never sacrafice your weakness triggers to bring TH.Quote:
It seems that SE's "vision" is to have all jobs equally desired, and THF just doesn't have that problem.
This is what baffles me, TH was never a crazy, OMG WTFBBQ increase to good drops because it scaled right down with those single digit drop rates. With the addition of weakness triggers dramatically increasing drop rates on quality items, it has allowed groups to get better drop rates now than they could could ever get with a THF alone, without a THF in the party at all if need be.
Yes, they stack but if your group is ready to go with everything but yellow triggers....guess who is going BLM/BRD and not THF?
How am I the loot whore specialst when BLM/BRD is better at making empyrean upgrade seals/+2 items drop?
How am I the loot whore specialist when VASTLY superior DD's with way more blue trigger procs can make armor drop better than I can?
How am I the loot whore specialist when a NIN can make Key Items drop much much better than I can?
How am I the Treasure Hunter Specialist when my Treasure Hunter means jack squat for voidwatch events?
I have always felt like the stagger system should have been given to THF in some way and not spread out across all jobs. A good THF would be able to stagger well and consistantly, increasing drop rates for his group. A pink bandwagon abyssea THF, not so good. Now a days...if you have staggers, you really don't even need a THF for drops. Yeah, they stack, but if Yellow can get you 3 of a +2 item, and the mob can't drop more than 3....yeah.
THF is not the go-to "We need you for loot" guy any more. We're 3rd string even for that. As if that wasn't enoough, they gave away the almighty Treasure Hunter itself to two other jobs!
I am sick to death of hearing "You have TH, stop QQ and be happy herp a derp derp." -
07-26-2011, 07:26 PMNeboThis just so happens to be a negative feedback thread about SE's vision for THF. If you don't like it, post somewhere else....wait a minute, that logic doesn't work does it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alderin
Yes, I think that with the mechanics, positional restrictions and recast timers of SA/TA, your average stacked weaponskill should be stronger than or at least similar to a comparable WS from a comparably geared WAR.Quote:
And they arent meant to be. You are comparing a heavy DD to a single-handed dagger wielding job. Of course stacked WS's arent going to compare with WAR ws's.
I don't think you realise just how wide this gap is now. Since we are using WAR as an example, WAR with Haste/buffs/Atma/Retaliation or Counterstance/Hasso/whateverbuffs can literaly spam immensely powerful WS without concern for recast timers or positional restrictions as their TP races up to 100.
If a THF does not stack WS, they are comparatively garbage. So we become limited to 2 Job abilities, dependant on difficult to fulfil positional restrictions at times, that can only be used once per minute to even DREAM of putting out a WS that is on a respectable level. This creates a very serious gap between other DD's and THF, which widens exponentially at higher levels of haste.
So yes, I happen to think that these spike damage abilities should give just that. Spike damage.
Well, first off, not having to sub THF to get it is pretty absurd, since that was the trade off. You sacrafice a sub with obviously superior damage output potential, but you get a 100% acc forced crit WS once a minute, with a hate transfer option.Quote:
So your having a Q.Q that WAR are getting a JA that they would get with /THF natively
Second, this is better than /TH becuase there are no positional restrictions attatched to it. Meaning that no matter what is going on, whether you are tanking or not, whether you are pulling hate or not, you can ride the timer for this JA. That. Shit. Is. Busted.
Ah...I see the misunderstanding here. You are mistaking what I think spike damage should be for these 60 second cooldown job abilities for thinking that my Damage should compare to a WAR. These are very different ideas.Quote:
Comments like that is where I was getting my aforementioned statement from. People Q.Q'ing that their damage does not compare to a WAR.
No it doesn'tQuote:
THF still plays a role in hate control.
.Quote:
As for TA & hate control - Yes of course it has to do with DAMAGE as you put. Learn to increase that damage with modifiers. As mentioned above - has a much less of a point in Abyssea but can still be used efficiently in areas like Voidwatch
No it can't
Well, I want seals to drop, I can perform that role better on BLM/BRD. If I want Armor, I can change to a job with more Blue Triggers and perfrom that role better. If I want Key Items, I can chance to NIN and do that better. I can go to voidwatch with better trigger jobs and not use a THF at all...I probably won't either because that TH boost to lights was a joke.Quote:
Hmmm, I think I seem to be missing something here, what is WHM a specialist for? Healing. What is a BLM a specialist for? Nuking. PLD? Tanking..
What about THF? oh yes right... to get our loot to drop! TREASURE HUNTER!
If you want to play a different role we come back to the original point here - level a different job!
Treasure Hunter is third string. They added weakness triggers to abyssea, then voidwatch, and then dynamis. Does it seem to you like this is going away? Because it seems to me like TH becomes less and less relevant with each new endgame content they roll out as long as you have your weakness trigger jobs in place. -
07-26-2011, 07:47 PMYuglWhat kind of retards are you guys using to support your argument? Melee is even more gear dependent and less skill dependent than THF. Lack of difference between two people with TH6 is a fault of the TH augment system more than THF's general melee capabilities.Quote:
My point is that for virtually every job, when filling a role, the 1st thing you look for is who is better at the job and that difference is skill based. For thf, you ask "Who has TH6?".
When you ask who is better at melee, it's not just SAM1 v SAM2. It's WAR v SAM v DRG v DRK v RNG v MNK v PUP? v BST. Furthermore, when you do get an equal comparison, it's who has better gear. Sound familiar?!
Oddly enough, if you turn that same question into "better at making normal items drop outside proc!! areas", THF monopolizes this position even more than WAR monopolizes the melee position because a melee with decent gear will usurp the position of a terribly geared WAR. Conversely no amount of gear will place my DRG or any other melee ahead of THF for drops where proc!! are irrelevant. Even then, the situations where this is true are dwindling rapidly. Even when at their peak, it just meant THF was no longer supreme in all aspects (Though still monopolizing the "TH maker" role in some situations).
You heard it here folks! Only WAR can use PDT+MDT sets even though THF has better access to MDT than WAR. The only point you got correct in that post was the proc!! system undermining TH for VW, but most complaints in this thread don't echo that as much as they complain about WAR (Which is a problem of WAR, not a fault of THF since almost every class can point to WAR at this point and scream overpowered).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebo
Also, as it currently stands, the utility of blue!! is diminishing without a means of returning (Unless SE brings us back to Abyssea). Meanwhile, the value of TH increases as Empyreans become the standard.
Going by the original traits, THF was actually designed to collect items and escape more than DD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
JA
Sneak Attack <=> Steal
Trick Attack <=> Mug
Pick Treasure Coffers
Hide + Flee + Perfect Dodge => Escape mechanisms used in conjunction with Steal/Mug
Traits
Gilfinder <=> Triple Attack
TH1 <=> Assassin (Wasn't even an original trait; was added later)
TH2
A total of 8 Evasion Bonus/Resist Gravity Traits
So no, THF was actually skewed towards obtaining items and escaping (Often times, stuff that went hand-in-hand). Even more evident by the level on Striders. -
07-26-2011, 07:57 PMKarbuncleThe Existence of Non-DD abilities does not denote the Idea is was intended to be a DD.Quote:
Going by the original traits, THF was actually designed to collect items and escape more than DD.
JA
Sneak Attack <=> Steal
Trick Attack <=> Mug
Pick Treasure Coffers
Hide + Flee + Perfect Dodge => Escape mechanisms used in conjunction with Steal/Mug
Traits
Gilfinder <=> Triple Attack
TH1 <=> Assassin (Wasn't even an original trait; was added later)
TH2
A total of 8 Evasion Bonus/Resist Gravity Traits
So no, THF was actually skewed towards obtaining items and escaping (Often times, stuff that went hand-in-hand). Even more evident by the level on Striders.
Yes, we had abilities designed to Steal/escape, But they weren't what we were designed to do in parties. I'm quite sure SE didn't intend for THFs to use Flee and hide during a exp party and run in circles, right?
Gilfinder/TH can arguably help an exp party in some small way if you're fighting beastmen or mobs that drop decent items, But its clear these traits were designed for big game.
Also, Hide actually allows you to Sneak Attack from any direction, that had DD implications too. The existence of traits that fit classic THF (Steal, Mug) does not mean its role was not suppose to be a DD. I don't deny SE had other plans for THF than simply a DD, But a DD they were.
Its just today the gap between a Good THF and a Good WAR has widened to a point where the THF is largely undermined as a DD and defaults to TH whore. Closing the gap a tad won't nerf other jobs or make them less desirable.
my point being, THF in a party situation was designed as a DD, with implications toward Enmity control (TA). Their JT obviously role-play the job, but i don't think they were what SE intended the job to do in parties or endgame. I think their role was originally a DD, in fact i think their old Manifesto said that, to the point they were thinking of buffing Perfect Dodge to, when active, your attacks would do more damage from behind.
Their plans changed clearly, But it doesn't change the point at one point, earlier in the games life, We were designed as a DD, and a TH whore, where as today its just TH whore.
We're only asking for the gap in DD to be closed a little. That and if you read my other posts I'm leaning more towards useful utility anyway, Already plenty of DD.. -
07-26-2011, 08:08 PMKarbuncle
Also
One bad egg on either side of the argument does not invalidate the argument itself. Most of us here know that each job is judged by their gear.Quote:
What kind of retards are you guys using to support your argument?
however, I'd be lying if, back in the day when i had TH3 only, that i wasn't asked to switch jobs because i didnt have TH4.
I'd be asked to change jobs to WAR or something so the TH4 THF in denali Bonnet and DEX rings could be on THF, despite my THF having far superior DD gear and would help us kill quicker. So a far inferior THF whos only marketable skill was owning 2 pieces of Armor and being completely gimp and useless in every other field was desired over a THF with TH3 even if that THF was perfect in every other field.
You could be a Mandau THF with perfect HQ Gear, and if you didn't have TH4? you were switching jobs to let a TH4 THF take your place.
I know his point, Even though its worded wrongly, It still a little F*cked up.
Edit:
Also i feel i should once again bring up that I've accepted our role as a DD will remain mediocre, and have come to terms with it. Despite still deep down wanting our power to be a little higher than it is.
I think giving THF some real uses/Utility that actually contribute to a fight isn't that big of a Catastrophe is it? Will the GD game shut down the second a THF can do something meaningful in a fight outside of hitting it and going AFK?
All i want is a reason to be in a party outside of TH. You and everyone else reading knows a THF's place in FFXI. We hit the mob, and we go the Fk away. Its how it was at 75, its how it is now (out of Abyssea), and on our current "Vision" Path, Its how it will be at 99.
We are useless in a Endgame situation outside of Loot, and perhaps Killing ourselves (A.K.A Saccing).
When a job has no uses outside of TH, and the only other thing your party can think of having you do is killing yourself again and again *sac pulls* than theres something wrong with the job. I don't feel I'm asking too much. Give us some abilities that really make us contribute.
This all seems rather meaningless when the Devs think Aura Steal on anything lower than 5 minutes would break the game, if they feel something like that is too powerful for THF we're all fked and we may as well just switch jobs like its been suggested, because this job is going nowhere and you may as well leave the "FFXI TH-Whore" to the Linkshell Mules like it was at 75.