Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by TybudX

You guys need to understand that it isn't about being 'elitist'. I'm going to say this because BG gets a bad rap by people who don't understand the culture. It's a community based on learning how to play FFXI better, and a big part of that is understanding game mechanics and how they work as part of a strategy. It's not a community for elitists, it's a community for people that understand that they need to change in order to be more successful. There are very few people who post on BG who have 'perfect' gear or always make 'perfect' parties. If they were perfect, there wouldn't be much point in playing anymore, right?

So this is it. When you discuss game mechanics, and specifically job performance, you need to understand how the job can perform at it's absolute peak. You have to remove player 'skill' from the discussion. It is hugely varied and impossible to quantify, and for practical purposes it has no place in an unbiased discussion. At the same time, comparing A to B when A is perfect and B has no idea how to gear a job properly doesn't make sense, either. Comparisons like that aren't going to get you any useful information.

This is what is going on right now, in this thread. There are people who are showing you that SMN can not perform it's 'duties' on the same level as any other job in the game, period. At best it is tied for healing capacity with other jobs that only have healing due to /whm or /rdm (COR). Aside from a few niche buffs (EA, PD) the buffs it does have are either not unique to the job (Haste, Stoneskin) or are significantly weaker than alternative job buffs, to the point where even if you add up the entire potential a SMN can add to a party, any other job capable of a similar role will perform better. This isn't a failing on either of you as players, it is a failing of the design of the SMN job. No matter how much you enjoy the job, no matter how good you are playing the job, it is still a sub-par job.

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Firstly I have no problem with the BG crowd(don't even know who you are really or what you guys do, if you're even one of them).

-I'm not using the following to try further my point please don't waste time yours and mine responding to it as so-

You can't really ignore skill because it works both ways. You could have a player on a 1st pick job who doesn't know a real thing about the job and isn't going to perform well at all or you could have a player on a 2nd-3rd pick job who geared the hell out of it and knows exactly what they're doing. In this case the 1st pick will perform poorer than the 3rd stringer. Individual skill will always be a large factor in the jobs performance, it's why finding people worth running with can be trial and error. I'd party with Al because he seems intelligent whereas I wouldn't party with Dallas because.. well he's Dallas and this is regardless of job selection, this shows that skill is an important factor in any pick.

-end-

I wouldn't compare a super A to a gimp B, because that just skews the numbers and invalidates the test. This is true most of the time other jobs in a support role will out perform SMN I've been saying that all along. But SMN can still perform the role well enough that the differnce is negligible(in normal setups not talking about the top 1% groups that cap haste etc. and most jobs aren't welcome in those anyway) the party will still run very smoothly.

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You can't really ignore skill because it works both ways.

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When comparing players, no

When comparing jobs, yes.

When we do comparisons, we're looking at the job's capabilities.

After that point, it's up to the player to fill the potential of the job.


So when I say x job is better than y job, it's because that job has a higher potential.

If you as a a pup for example are out dding a ukon war, then you're comparing players at this point, not jobs. and you would say I'm a better player than Xsephirothx, not pup is a better job than war

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

When comparing players, no

When comparing jobs, yes.

When we do comparisons, we're looking at the job's capabilities.

After that point, it's up to the player to fill the potential of the job.


So when I say x job is better than y job, it's because that job has a higher potential.

If you as a a pup for example are out dding a ukon war, then you're comparing players at this point, not jobs. and you would say I'm a better player than Xsephirothx, not pup is a better job than war

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Fair enough, I would still argue that unless you're sticking to theory skill will have to be considered at least at some stage.
then I guess the point I'm trying to argue(as immodest as it sounds) is on SMN I am a good enough player to close the gap in potential between SMN and the other support jobs to the point where the party doesn't suffer much from the difference will not be immediately noticable

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

Serious question; BST is that bad?

Probably seems like a trollbait question, but I really have no interaction with any BSTs, nobody in my group has it leveled (except for Maat's Cap maybe), I never ever do pickup groups for anything and I have had no reason to ever look into the job. I know BST is certainly non-optimal, but I didn't know it was that bad. :x

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If you look at every job in terms of what they can do solo and in a party, BST has the capability to solo most of the "old" content using the ladybug using access to "infinite" pet restoral items (dawn mulsum) and reward. It's solo ability is well documented yet nothing that at least 3 other jobs couldn't do. Therein lies the problem with BST: it's an incomplete job.

Pets cannot keep up with real DD because they cannot be buffed, hasted or enhanced anywhere near as much as an actual DD occupying the slot. The BST itself is susceptible to the same failings as any DD (get too close, you die) yet cannot fall back on the pet for respectable damage because quite simply the tools do not exist.

BST is meant to be played in a way where the pet and master both are dealing damage yet SE fails to realize on anything difficult, the master doesn't want to be up front because BST isn't that good of a melee.

Besides TOTM weapons, pet DD gear is few and far between and unlike SMN or PUP which get attacks that scale up to HNMs, the BST is stuck using an unbuffed pet which most often will eat a ton of damage and die leaving you stuck waiting on the Call Beast timer. Even if you manage to keep the pet alive through Reward/Mulsums, the weaponskills the pets get are pathetic.

SE really doesn't care to buff pet classes and while SMN could use work, the job is functional on harder mobs and often used when mobs have strong AOEs. BST on the other hand is just a completely forgotten about class.

As much as people attempt to rewrite history post-Abyssea, SMN has always been a desired class at HNMs. Go back as far as Kirin '05 or Tiamats and you'll see people using Summoner.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Fair enough, I would still argue that unless you're sticking to theory skill will have to be considered at least at some stage.

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You need to apply 'player skill' to whatever your specific situation is. It has no bearing on game mechanics or job potential. The 'elitists (as Al puts it) have no way of knowing if the guy who plays MNK in your LS tends to go afk, or if your WHM doesn't know which TP moves cause what status effects on a player. They don't know if you have a PUP who regularly comes in tops in your parses. All of those comes down to 'player skill', and all of them are going to vary by an unlimited margin from one group to the next. You can not gain useful information about how the game works or where each ob actually stands in relation to one another if you try to apply 'player skill' to the base of information. you just end up with a bunch of useless data that is hugely flawed by individual performance.

Look at it this way. Say you have somebody who is awesome at SAM. Sure, he can out play other DDs in his LS, but if he leveled WAR, he would perform even better. The same holds true for you and SMN. If you applied what you know to playing BRD or playing COR your group as a whole would perform that much better, because those jobs provide stronger buffs, better damage (including from buffs), and are at worst tied with SMNs healing/support potential. We know this because we understand that SMNs maximum job potential is less than every other job's maximum job potential.

Another way to look at it is like a formula.

[(A + B + C) = D]*E

Where E is player skill. You need to understand D before you can find the true value of E.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Soloing. Certain. Notorious. Monsters.

Maybe not fast, but at least a lot safer than others, but you know what, you never look at that because most of you guys have at least 2 other mules to tri-box with, probably with your own versions of bots. So you can say you can "solo" anything.

But when you have nothing like that, SMN shines. We don't have to depend on anyone or anything except our abilities and our avatars.

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Oh, definitely. I know SMN can solo pretty darn well. That's where it shines, for sure.

I was talking in the implied context of a group/party situation, though. I guess that implication was missed, my mistake. For the record, I've never denied SMN being a great solo artist. Merely their contribution to party play.

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You need to apply 'player skill' to whatever your specific situation is.

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Which is why you use both potential and the player you're looking to invite as factors.

Again though, this has bearing on which person to invite, not which job is better.

Only potential is needed to see the better job.


Sooooo, for example, there were people I was out DD'ing on corsair while lv'ing it. Those people, regardless of jobs, are people I would never invite to anything I was leading.


Ok let's say we're looking at the same player who knows how to play all of their jobs well and has good gear for their jobs.

This person has smn vs X job.

Should he come smn or X job?

This is the kind of comparison I'm making, not a good smn vs some scrub other job.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Oh, definitely. I know SMN can solo pretty darn well. That's where it shines, for sure.

I was talking in the implied context of a group/party situation, though. I guess that implication was missed, my mistake. For the record, I've never denied SMN being a great solo artist. Merely their contribution to party play.

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I think most people have accepted SMN's limitations in a party, a few would rather think otherwise.

In this age, if anyone wishes to not level another job, only have one job, then they have to realize that they won't be asked to do most anything they want in a party situation.

Wait, stop now kids. I believe we've come to a consensus. Quickly lock the thread.

Also, I don't have that much of a problem with BST DD. If I had two changes I would make to the job:
1) Allow pets to receive party-wide buffs (including Samba). This also indirectly encourages pet burns, as Hastega is the only party-wide form of the spell, barring AoE'd Refueling or something.
2) Give BSTs a "Stance" that basically makes the pet auto-assist them like an avatar. As lame a complaint as this is, I'm really tired of hitting "Fight" all the time when my pet's damage is shitty compared to my own.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Wait, stop now kids. I believe we've come to a consensus. Quickly lock the thread.

Also, I don't have that much of a problem with BST DD. If I had two changes I would make to the job:
1) Allow pets to receive party-wide buffs (including Samba). This also indirectly encourages pet burns, as Hastega is the only party-wide form of the spell, barring AoE'd Refueling or something.
2) Give BSTs a "Stance" that basically makes the pet auto-assist them like an avatar. As lame a complaint as this is, I'm really tired of hitting "Fight" all the time when my pet's damage is shitty compared to my own.

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My problem with BST DD is that the job is grossly underpowered. Buffs would be a start to making pet jobs more sturdy and able to keep up with more basic melee but right now the job feels and plays like a class still being developed even though classes like BLU, DNC and COR are far younger than it and have more intricacies.

The familiars 76+ chew through weak mobs but even with their huge HP pools, they get wrecked by (H)NMs and are susceptible to being crippled by multiple debuffs. While it's amazing to see stuff like a Byakko solo using Yuly or doing the old add-on missions pet-style, that stuff is 75 content and it's no surprise a lvl90 pet can crush old content.

The class needs some kind of JA that gives the pet haste/acc/att/crithit rate in exchange for weakening the master. A reverse JA for the more DD oriented BST could easily a secondary option. The class has a serious lack of attack oriented gear for the pet and the "Ready" abilities are currently pathetic. What's the current max haste a BST can give their pet? 9%?

Separating roboront/poultices from the Reward timer would also make healing the pet of status afflictions less of a pain in the ass. Having to choose between healing or status cures is the same issue plaguing DNC so I see no reason why there even should be a choice as you have to pay for Roborants/Poultices in the first place.

Finally, giving the pet small sphere effects that benefit anyone in range would help to bring some variety to using different familiars. Im not even going to touch Charm because outside of an event friendly to Charming mobs, a party-oriented BST would be tied down to using jugpets.

I think the funniest thing about this thread is that the people arguing on behalf of SMN are self-defeating in the sense that they're not portraying SMN as a job that needs to be buffed. It would be more beneficial to take a look a SMN's weaknesses and come up with ideas to improve the job's capabilities.

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Originally Posted by Azagthoth

I think the funniest thing about this thread is that the people arguing on behalf of SMN are self-defeating in the sense that they're not portraying SMN as a job that needs to be buffed. It would be more beneficial to take a look a SMN's weaknesses and come up with ideas to improve the job's capabilities.

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At the risk of restarting the argument, I think we all know SMN needs improvement but needs improvement=/= useless*. We could use new Rages another boost to our wards(make them scale up with levels better) and BP timer is hurting us(I think BP timer is partially to stop us applying like 10 buff to a party at once but jsut putting a cap on the amount of buff we can give can fix that)


* I know no one is literally saying SMN is useless but saying we're bottom of the barrel adds up to the same.

Even bottom of the barrel played well is above average. Though, that really says more about the average in FFXI than anything else. Recognize that distinction (It's not you, it's the job) and the entire disagreement is over.

As for making Summoner at all respectable as a DD job (their only solid role. They suck ass as healers and have terrible buffs), removing the cap on BP timer reduction and allowing buffs to hit Avatars would pretty much solve 90% of their issues off the bat.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Even bottom of the barrel played well is above average. Though, that really says more about the average in FFXI than anything else. Recognize that distinction (It's not you, it's the job) and the entire disagreement is over.

As for making Summoner at all respectable as a DD job (their only solid role. They suck ass as healers and have terrible buffs), removing the cap on BP timer reduction and allowing buffs to hit Avatars would pretty much solve 90% of their issues off the bat.

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Yeah, I agree completely.

Razushu, I wasn't meaning to come off dickish either; I just think that your time would be better spent trying to improve the job if you want to change people's opinions about it. It's a win-win situation for you.

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As for making Summoner at all respectable as a DD job (their only solid role. They suck ass as healers and have terrible buffs), removing the cap on BP timer reduction and allowing buffs to hit Avatars would pretty much solve 90% of their issues off the bat.

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I disagree. But not in the sense that you are wrong, but that it is by far not enough to solve 90% of the issues. (You are for example missing that pets have lower DMG rating, slow attack speed and very little haste gear, so you'd be way behind in DoT to begin with. In addition removing the cap only, will just allow for a little more reduction but will not solve the underlying problem of global timers. Give a BLM a 20 sec global timer on all spells and you'll notice that it is not the 45 seconds that is the problem, it is the fact you are restricted to one at a time spell)

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I disagree. But not in the sense that you are wrong, but that it is by far not enough to solve 90% of the issues. (You are for example missing that pets have lower DMG rating, slow attack speed and very little haste gear, so you'd be way behind in DoT to begin with. In addition removing the cap only, will just allow for a little more reduction but will not solve the underlying problem of global timers. Give a BLM a 20 sec global timer on all spells and you'll notice that it is not the 45 seconds that is the problem, it is the fact you are restricted to one at a time spell)

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Well, your solution calls for more limitations, instead of fixing stuff.

Why stop there, why not give WHM a 20 second global timer on spells.

Or any DD a 20 second swing.

That will really put things into prospective. Fixes SMN's problem, doesn't it? >.>

A great way to help fix SMN would be to give us a BP delay system broken up by level as well as rage/ward. In most cases Avatar's get 1 ward and 1 rage in a 10 level range i.e. level 20-29. some of these are still nice at level 75+ but are useless because of shared time with other pacts. Seperated timer's could be applied to each of these(still global across avatars though) to these with lower level pact's having shorter recast Possibly like so:

Pacts gained lower than lvl10 recast 10 seconds

Pacts gained at 10-19 recast 20 seconds

Pacts gained at 20-29 recast 20 seconds

Pacts gained at 30-39 recast 30 seconds

Pacts gained at 40-49 recast 40 seconds

Pacts gained at 50-59 recast 50 seconds

Pacts gained at 60-69 recast 60 seconds

Pacts gained at 70-79 recast 60 seconds

Pacts gained at 80-89 recast 70 seconds

Pacts gained at 90-99 recast 80 seconds

BP delay could be reworked like so: minimum recast=tier cost x.75(rounded up where applicable)

ex. a rage gained at level 23(burning strike) would have a max reduction of -5 secs.

This would enable us to get use out of some of our lower pacts without sacrificing our high level pacts while preventing us from spamming them.

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Originally Posted by Azagthoth

Yeah, I agree completely.

Razushu, I wasn't meaning to come off dickish either; I just think that your time would be better spent trying to improve the job if you want to change people's opinions about it. It's a win-win situation for you.

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It's cool you didn't

Thank you for your speedy action last time, Alhanelem. I have two more cases this time, I think.

All of the information from this post got sucked onto ffxiclopedia without citation on any of the pages, as far as I can find:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103...=1#post4655960
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.p...&oldid=1340875
User Nanashi14

I mean, I get the whole "YouTube"esque "We'll have takedown policies, but it's your responsibility to report abuse" method of increasing site traffic. It's kind of a pain though, and you guys aren't working on FFXIclopedia anymore so you could probably start legitimately questioning where the information comes from.

I also hypothesized an unreported drop in a BG Voidwatch thread a month or so ago. It ended up getting mirrored on both Gamer Escape and ffxiclopedia. I suspect that the Gamer Escape contributor was pulling it from FFXIclopedia rather than BGwiki, but the FFXIclopedia contributor was likely pulling it directly from BG wiki. He probably wouldn't had added it if he'd seen the number of assumptions I had to make to put it on that NM in the thread from the forums. There have, as far as I know, still been no reports (NA or JP) of the drop (staff) off Arch Angra Mainyu.
BGWiki: http://wiki.bluegartr.com/index.php?...8&oldid=158012
FFXIclopedia: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.p...&oldid=1337623
Gamer Escape: http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/ind...&oldid=1293253

In both cases, it was added around the time of a bunch of other drops, meaning they actually likely lifted all the information straight from BG or BG wiki. Furthermore, the second case was a contributor with 20k+ edits.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

lol to me it says:

BST and SMN don't need healers... so you don't need WHMs... so instead of inviting WHM get an entire pet party to kill something... and only invite the WAR (and probably NIN) for red procs because you don't have WHM so they need Apoc to keep getting back up.

However, instead of alllll of that you can just: NIN WAR WHM: kill whatever faster than a pet party.

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Congratulations, you can read pet job, unlike a lot of people. BTW, is the WAR finally pulling the "only in Abyssea card?" I purposely left out: if we're outside of of Abyssea, WAR can take a hike. :D

You did take the bait. Thanks! What's wrong with the NIN WAR WHM plan? Nothing at all, except that for once in almost 900 posts someone BESIDES ME admitted that lowman is the best setup in Abyssea. No BRD. No DNC. You can't give those two jobs any credit for boosting the power of the WAR because THEY AREN'T THERE. Your WAR is also holding back so the NIN can tank.

SMN and BST are excellent in the absence of buffs. Your party setup has a complete absence of buffs. Your WAR isn't the top of the totem pole and pet jobs aren't the bottom.

What.

Obligatory filler for character limit here.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

The real question is even sans WHM why is a WAR dying constantly in a group full of SMNs?

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Take 2 SMN and a WAR to Hrosshvalur. Use whatever tricks you can to win AND get red proc. You'll figure it out REALLY fast why WAR is a throwaway job. I'd prefer you find one of the WAR in this thread, just to spread around the knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

What.

Obligatory filler for character limit here.

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Neisan, you aren't participating enough. Only 400 posts ago EVERY WAR had Ukon and travelled with a BRD DNC and WHM who do nothing but increase the WARs damage and keep them alive.

claustrum is clearly the best staff in the game because

So your argument is procing on a mob that uses a Tp move roughly every 5 seconds really? I mean, really?

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

So your argument is procing on a mob that uses a Tp move roughly every 5 seconds really? I mean, really?

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Nope, proc on a mob that resets hate every attack.

I don't even...

Then figure it out. Screw the WAR, go grab a 2nd SMN and try duoing the jerk fish.

.. Why? I've proc'd on the ugly fish before on WAR, so... what's your point? It's not even a hard mob and the KI drop rate was increased... I don't see the point in taking longer to kill something just to use a Smn.

You obviously either don't have any clue what question I was answering, or don't know the mob.

I do know the mob, retard fish in Vunk, very difficult to proc on? Yes, impossible? No, do you need a summoner for it? No.

I don't think anyone has a clue wtf you're talking about half the time honestly.

I don't think English is his native language.

....At least I hope not.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Congratulations, you can read pet job, unlike a lot of people. BTW, is the WAR finally pulling the "only in Abyssea card?" I purposely left out: if we're outside of of Abyssea, WAR can take a hike. :D

You did take the bait. Thanks! What's wrong with the NIN WAR WHM plan? Nothing at all, except that for once in almost 900 posts someone BESIDES ME admitted that lowman is the best setup in Abyssea. No BRD. No DNC. You can't give those two jobs any credit for boosting the power of the WAR because THEY AREN'T THERE. Your WAR is also holding back so the NIN can tank.

SMN and BST are excellent in the absence of buffs. Your party setup has a complete absence of buffs. Your WAR isn't the top of the totem pole and pet jobs aren't the bottom.

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take 2 smn: get 1 red proc

wait a minute

take no brd: get yellow EVERY TIME

wait a second

take a pet party: get yellow ever

hold up

~end sarcasm~

take 5 smn, or a pet party: take 45 minutes to kill anything

somethings not right here...

take 1 war 1 nin 1 whm 1 brd 1 blu 1 blm
get red
get yellow
kill in 5 minutes or less, without trouble at all

I think we've found a winner!

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

take 2 smn: get 1 red proc

wait a minute

take no brd: get yellow EVERY TIME

wait a second

take a pet party: get yellow ever

hold up

~end sarcasm~

take 5 smn, or a pet party: take 45 minutes to kill anything

somethings not right here...

take 1 war 1 nin 1 whm 1 brd 1 blu 1 blm
get red
get yellow
kill in 5 minutes or less, without trouble at all

I think we've found a winner!

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This is the most sense made in the last 20 posts.

Anyone have any idea as to what Dallas is talking about?

Back again! it's the most sense made, but it's not a lot of sense made, because i've done many pet burn fights, and they don't "take 45 minutes (or some other arbitrary time" to kill something that anyone else kills in "5 minutes." It might take a little longer, yes, but nothing absurd like that.

Random maybe bad example: Take the hydra boss in Walk of Echoes. I've done this WoE run multiple times both with pet burns (which were done by JP, oddly enough) and with conventional party setups. Regardless of method, no kill took drastically more or less time than another. Yes, there was variance. But not a 9 to 1 difference or anything near that extreme. In fact, the pet burn group killed the boss easily with no deaths, where there were always a few deaths in the "normal" setup. In the pet burns there were a few summoners with the BSTs. Since there's no crappy-ass proccing system in WoE (well, actually there does seem to be one, but only red proc and even that is rare) limiting potential party setups, the pet burn strategy actually worked better, not really having to worry about any of the mob's TP moves or feeding it TP.

I realize WOE isn't something everyone does every day, but it does represent a fight that isn't held down by procs, and it represents an example of pet burning not being worse than any other strategy. To me, it reinforces how the proc system may mean more shinies, but it ruins the gameplay (for me, at least).

To tie into the melee SMN crap, even in the Ukon WAR comparison, the WAR was obviously substantially higher in damage, but it wasn't 900% higher (e.g. to kill something in 5 minutes vs 45).

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Back again! it's the most sense made, but it's not a lot of sense made, because i've done many pet burn fights, and they don't "take 45 minutes (or some other arbitrary time" to kill something that anyone else kills in "5 minutes." It might take a little longer, yes, but nothing absurd like that.

Random maybe bad example: Take the hydra boss in Walk of Echoes. I've done this WoE run multiple times both with pet burns (which were done by JP, oddly enough) and with conventional party setups. Regardless of method, no kill took drastically more or less time than another. Yes, there was variance. But not a 9 to 1 difference or anything near that extreme. In fact, the pet burn group killed the boss easily with no deaths, where there were always a few deaths in the "normal" setup. In the pet burns there were a few summoners with the BSTs. Since there's no crappy-ass proccing system in WoE (well, actually there does seem to be one, but only red proc and even that is rare) limiting potential party setups, the pet burn strategy actually worked better, not really having to worry about any of the mob's TP moves or feeding it TP.

I realize WOE isn't something everyone does every day, but it does represent a fight that isn't held down by procs, and it represents an example of pet burning not being worse than any other strategy. To me, it reinforces how the proc system may mean more shinies, but it ruins the gameplay (for me, at least).

To tie into the melee SMN crap, even in the Ukon WAR comparison, the WAR was obviously substantially higher in damage, but it wasn't 900% higher (e.g. to kill something in 5 minutes vs 45).

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Even solo, it doesn't take me more than 20 minutes to kill anything. I doubt that with pet burns, it would take more than 7 minutes.

But the point is, it does take longer to kill something with a pet burn than it does with a proc burn. But the advantage of pet burns are, little to no deaths (only time anyone dies on a pet burn is if there is a very damaging AoE move and the SMN happens to be in there trying to use BP at that time) vs a higher risk of death with a "normal" burn.

What proc burns bring to the table is increased drop rates. That is all.

But when it comes to killing ability, pet burns = proc burns.

Color me uninformed, and that is very possible considering I don't do anything in pet burns, but the only pet burns I've seen take significantly more people than a "standard" kill team would. Can 3 Bst/Smns handle Kirin and other Shijin? Or the WoE Hydra?

If they can, that's cool. I'm just saying, the only pet burns I've ever seen come in the form of either 2-3 Bst/Smns kiting the crap out of everything and taking an hour, or 12-18 Bst/Smns just throwing pet bodies at things till they keel over. Can a low number of Bst/Smns kill strong NMs without resorting to Kite/DoT tactics?

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What proc burns bring to the table is increased drop rates. That is all.

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And greater exclusion of various jobs from being able to participate in any capacty other than standing by and watching.

If people are going to get the procs every time (or most every time) and get more drops, then why not just give us freedom to kill shiat however we want and just have higher bleeping drop rates?

Proccing limits strategies and discourages creativity or otherwise "fun" play, and encourages killing everything the same way for the sake of getting more drops.

It's not the only monkey wrench in pet killing, but the most annoying one.

Monsters that absorb physical during TP moves are obvioulsy more difficult to pet burn, because pulling pets off the mob to avoid healing it is going to make the monster move around. It can still be done, but it's harder (and will take forever if you DON'T avoid healing it.

I have seen summoners duo the Scars iron giants, and I even saw one summoner atetmpting to solo it, and he almost succeeded, but got caught in an AoE that happened at a bad time.

WAR, NIN, and MNK are the 3 strongest jobs in Abyssea anyways. If a group is top-tier and using the most efficient method to kill things as possible, the proc system would not have affected the invite order at all.

If a group is not top-tier, and/OR just does not care about using the most efficient method possible, then nothing has changed and non-proc jobs will still get invites.

QED: Proc system does absolutely nothing to affect the invite hierarchy in Abyssea. Strawman less.

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QED: Proc system does absolutely nothing to affect the invite hierarchy in Abyssea. Strawman less.

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It totally does. You think "top tier" groups are the only ones who only invite certain jobs?

If you're not a WAR, NIN, MNK, WHM, BRD, BLM or BLU, you do not get taken on any pick-up NM kill. That's less than half of all jobs viably accepted in abyssea.

If you don't think this is a problem, you're crazy. It's not a strawman, it's a fair logical argument. The Proc system in abyssea encourages bandwagoning and discourages varying strategies to kill a mob, regardless of job combination.

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Proccing limits strategies and discourages creativity or otherwise "fun" play, and encourages killing everything the same way for the sake of getting more drops.

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Well, with how many more times you'll have to kill each NM, you'll have plenty of room for all that extra fun you love so much.

ITT: You can't have fun and be efficient at the same time.