80% haste for melee jobs is plain BS.

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Originally Posted by rog

I pull hate with 2 nukes on blm, that means blm is an amazing dd, amirite?

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Best in the game, brah

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Two hits for 30 damage do more damage than one hit for 50 damage, and nets you twice as much TP which doubles your WS damage (and you don't even WS in Haste, so you aren't losing damage per WS), and that's being super incredibly lenient towards the amount of damage/hit other stats would give you. It's not like players are abso-super-lutely gimp to the point where they're barely doing any damage without stacking attack/acc in slots where you can use Haste, or that Haste pieces don't have any other relevant stats on them (See: MNK AF3+2).

Edit: And using "Pulling hate" as a reference for how much damage you're dealing is so 2004 and completely wrong in every way imaginable, sorry.

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Actually, considerring the number of players with just STUPID skill gaps that is exactly what I see happening.

Next, using the taking of hate as a measure of how my damage stands... isn't that PRECISELY why they say paladin is dead as a tank, they can't do damage so the jobs doing damage are taking the hate? Whiffing twice as fast is just as effective as single whiffing... i.e. not at all. When you only hit for 1-20 per hit you get to eat it's TP moves in greater numbers, enjoy yourself. The extra attack round given by the haste boost (hard to estimate how often it occurs because of differing weapon delays) may amount to nothing. In factm the only thing I see as always benefiting from haste is the Utsu recast timer. Other boosts may be much more effective, and your choices should reflect that in your character build of gear, atma, food and the like.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Best in the game, brah

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I think so. You silly melee dds cannot pull hate with only two of your normal attacks. Damn gimps.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

Actually, considerring the number of players with just STUPID skill gaps that is exactly what I see happening.

Next, using the taking of hate as a measure of how my damage stands... isn't that PRECISELY why they say paladin is dead as a tank, they can't do damage so the jobs doing damage are taking the hate? Whiffing twice as fast is just as effective as single whiffing... i.e. not at all. When you only hit for 1-20 per hit you get to eat it's TP moves in greater numbers, enjoy yourself. The extra attack round given by the haste boost (hard to estimate how often it occurs because of differing weapon delays) may amount to nothing. In factm the only thing I see as always benefiting from haste is the Utsu recast timer. Other boosts may be much more effective, and your choices should reflect that in your character build of gear, atma, food and the like.

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You're so misinformed I really just don't know where to start. Let's divide things up point by point.

1) No, additional attack rounds have nothing to do with the delay of the weapon. All weapons attack twice as often at 50% Haste no matter what the delay is. All weapons attack three times as often at 66% Haste. All weapons attack four times as often at 75% Haste. All weapons attack five times as often at 80% Haste.

2) Who the hell cares about retards who don't have capped skill? Are you one of them? No? Then this argument obviously does not apply to you and your gear, so you should be using Haste.

3) Paladin does not deal as much damage as a normal DD. This is true, and a good portion of why it sucks.

3b) Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with Enmity. Paladin can cap hate just as easily as anyone else. The problem with Paladin is not, and has never been, about Enmity.

4) Who the hell whiffs on anything aside from Neo-Xarcabard content these days? Combat skills, Level Correction, and Atmas where Level Correction isn't giving you a huge boost pretty much auto-cap accuracy.

You'd have a point in theory if players were hitting ridiculously low Accuracy numbers (like sub-60%) and had absolutely no outside Haste. The former is most definitely not the case unless someone just seriously sucks hardcore, like trying very hard to suck as much as possible, so your argument is invalid.

Just stopping by to say GG is totally right.

More on topic, 80% haste on melees isn't unfair to bst, simply because bst can actually you know, melee too. Sure, you won't be hitting as hard as a war or a nin or a thf, but the damage you're outputting is being supplemented by the damage your pet does. The very same pet you can give fulltime Invincible. Why not give them fulltime mighty strikes as well? Surely, that can't be any more BS than fulltime Invincible.

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When you only hit for 1-20 per hit you get to eat it's TP moves in greater numbers, enjoy yourself.

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If you care that much about feeding tp, you do not use any melees, and instead stick with blms that can do 3-5k+ damage for 10 tp.

Oh, you say that is too slow?

Also, hitting for 1-20 damage. Why are you meleeing on blm?

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Also, hitting for 1-20 damage. Why are you meleeing on blm?

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uh...what?

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Originally Posted by Sayelle

Ugh, so much dumb in one post I can't believe it...

You do realize that it's possible to cap or near cap both gear Haste and Accuracy at the same time, then you fill in the remaining spots with attack and other stats and eating attack food. You claim that you are always the one getting hate, well I hate to break it to you, but the way that hate works in this game even some one who makes horrible gear decisions can end up hitting hate cap and getting the mobs attention. A person who actually knows what the fuck and gears in haste/acc will have the mobs attention far more often than you since once hate is capped the mob will attack whoever took the last action on it, and guess what, that will be the person who is hitting faster.

Please do these boards and the rest of us a favor and stop posting until you have a basic understanding of the game mechanics.

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there are other stats in the game that are as relevant as attack speed, power, acc and the like, defensive skills and such. Often defense is as or more important than haste. Query: how much damage are you doing dead? How does haste prevent death? Only way I know of is Utsu, but /nin isn't the only character build used in game.

There are also many mobs with extremely heavy defense, Attack power is going to be more of a friend there, because the high def yields more 0 damage hits. Then there are mobs that evade like nobody's business (giant birds as an example), acc is your friend there. There are even mobs you only want to take with ranged weapons due to auras and the like, haste doesn't even work on ranged attack. For whatever reason, bard haste seems to only affect ninjitsu casting (not exactly fair to other casters but that's the way it is), so it's not really useful on mages unless they plan to melee as well.

Haste may be a decent default to build for, depending on your job, but you may get more milage out of other things. Galka pld may want MP, Taru may need HP or eva for survival, Mithra may need strength, pseudo casters may benefit more from magic acc/mab, bard want anything to speed casting but that's not haste-it's more a variant of fast cast, etc.

I've built my dnc to work on eva, not haste as an example. The Eva allows me to tank for 1. Hitting so I gain TP is more important than swinging often so I prefer acc to haste. I use a truckload of +store TP since TP fuels my abilities. And last but not least, haste LOWERS my samba effectiveness, meaning I drain for less. I haste samba situationally, when the mob is easy to hit and not doing much damage to my group, but if it's able to put out alot of damage I'll switch to drain (unless it's undead), if I'm working with alot of MP using DD (blue, dark, etc) I may use aspir samba, and if solo I'll use drain almost exclusively since it cuts the # of waltzes I need in half, letting me WS more often. That's just 1 job...

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Originally Posted by rog

If you care that much about feeding tp, you do not use any melees, and instead stick with blms that can do 3-5k+ damage for 10 tp.

Oh, you say that is too slow?

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I certainly don't say that, but the haste meisters do...

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

there are other stats in the game that are as relevant as attack speed, power, acc and the like, defensive skills and such. Often defense is as or more important than haste. Query: how much damage are you doing dead? How does haste prevent death? Only way I know of is Utsu, but /nin isn't the only character build used in game.

There are also many mobs with extremely heavy defense, Attack power is going to be more of a friend there, because the high def yields more 0 damage hits. Then there are mobs that evade like nobody's business (giant birds as an example), acc is your friend there. There are even mobs you only want to take with ranged weapons due to auras and the like, haste doesn't even work on ranged attack. For whatever reason, bard haste seems to only affect ninjitsu casting (not exactly fair to other casters but that's the way it is), so it's not really useful on mages unless they plan to melee as well.

Haste may be a decent default to build for, depending on your job, but you may get more milage out of other things. Galka pld may want MP, Taru may need HP or eva for survival, Mithra may need strength, pseudo casters may benefit more from magic acc/mab, bard want anything to speed casting but that's not haste-it's more a variant of fast cast, etc.

I've built my dnc to work on eva, not haste as an example. The Eva allows me to tank for 1. Hitting so I gain TP is more important than swinging often so I prefer acc to haste. I use a truckload of +store TP since TP fuels my abilities. And last but not least, haste LOWERS my samba effectiveness, meaning I drain for less. I haste samba situationally, when the mob is easy to hit and not doing much damage to my group, but if it's able to put out alot of damage I'll switch to drain (unless it's undead), if I'm working with alot of MP using DD (blue, dark, etc) I may use aspir samba, and if solo I'll use drain almost exclusively since it cuts the # of waltzes I need in half, letting me WS more often. That's just 1 job...

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A few misconceptions:
- Marches do reduce other caster's recast times as well
- Haste doesn't lower delay (that would be dual wield), and as such doesn't gimp your sambas
- Capped haste with absolute zero accuracy lands more hits than capped accuracy, even with 5% Haste
- If a mob takes 0 damage, it's very likely that some Attack won't make a difference at all
- Gear can be situational, you don't have to fulltime one set for every situation
- More often than not Haste doesn't sacrifice other stats at all

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

I certainly don't say that, but the haste meisters do...

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Before this goes any further, I'm just going to assume you don't switch gear at all. That would explain a lot, really.

If so, carry on. You're a lost cause and there's no point arguing with you.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You're so misinformed I really just don't know where to start. Let's divide things up point by point.

1) No, additional attack rounds have nothing to do with the delay of the weapon. All weapons attack twice as often at 50% Haste no matter what the delay is. All weapons attack three times as often at 66% Haste. All weapons attack four times as often at 75% Haste. All weapons attack five times as often at 80% Haste.

2) Who the hell cares about retards who don't have capped skill? Are you one of them? No? Then this argument obviously does not apply to you and your gear, so you should be using Haste.

3) Paladin does not deal as much damage as a normal DD. This is true, and a good portion of why it sucks.

3b) Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with Enmity. Paladin can cap hate just as easily as anyone else. The problem with Paladin is not, and has never been, about Enmity.

4) Who the hell whiffs on anything aside from Neo-Xarcabard content these days? Combat skills, Level Correction, and Atmas where Level Correction isn't giving you a huge boost pretty much auto-cap accuracy.

You'd have a point in theory if players were hitting ridiculously low Accuracy numbers (like sub-60%) and had absolutely no outside Haste. The former is most definitely not the case unless someone just seriously sucks hardcore, like trying very hard to suck as much as possible, so your argument is invalid.

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you apparently didn't understand what I meant by attack round, i.e. how often you swing. Unfortunately, if there is an accepted term for this I'm not aware of it. When I said I can't estimate it, that's because the guy using HTH might swing twice every 5 seconds with 0 haste, but the guy with a scythe is swinging once every 12 seconds with 0. If hasted to the point of swinging twice as fast our HTH guy is swinging every 2.5 sends, but our scythe guy is every 6. I know those aren't the actual game numbers for these attack types, just numbers to fill in x in the haste cap equation. So the extra attack round I refer to is the point at which-in the same 30 seconds-the haste value would grant you the extra swing. Sorry, terminology limitation there.

2. I chose not to use haste because I live longer and get more done generally with other boosts, eva and the like. If I don't need the eva, or def, or whatever more than haste, then yes, I'll usually use haste (depends on what gear I have).

3. I agree pld isn't about enmity, it's about enmity control. However, last guy to attck you is not the only factor controlling this. If haste is coming from uniform sources, and so is damage (i.e. a pld and war both swinging at mob with similar weap speed, acc and dmg) and so both have 60% haste the war will get the hate because they hit harder (and they prolly have an acc advantage, too), tie goes to the guy what hits harder.

4. in the face of all the jobs leeched to the moon without the skill to back it up, whiffing/doing no damage is exactly what I see alot of. It's also why most skill-up parties Ive been in with my bard I'm asked to madrigal, because it's more effective to that purpose than march.

For those who don't know - 100% Haste would basically be 0 delay - meaning anything you engage would die instantly (if it didn't actually crash the game due to some logic fail).

You could engage Absolute Virtue with a DMG: 1 Delay: 999 weapon with 0 skill that hits for zero on every swing, but has a 0.0000000000001% chance to crit hit for 1 damage... with 0 skill, while slow, blinded, paralyzed and being Rambus and it would still instantly die and your skill for that weapon would cap itself (likely considering it'd take hundreds of thousands - maybe millions) of swings (all firing off instantaneously) to kill it... Either way, it'd break something... even if the software was programmed to understand what's going on, the amount of data being forced at once would probably overwhelm your computer's memory or knock the FFXI server offline. If you're on PS2, it'd probably just catch on fire... or evolve ... ending the era of PS2 Limitations.

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Originally Posted by rog

uh...what?

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I just can't think of many other jobs that would hit for that little damage at level 90. Except for on a few NMs.

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Originally Posted by Francisco

[..] If you're on PS2, it'd probably just catch on fire... or evolve ... ending the era of PS2 Limitations.

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I vote 100% Haste cap.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

I just can't think of many other jobs that would hit for that little damage at level 90. Except for on a few NMs.

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Try any job (even heavy melee) that actually has no native skill in a weapon. WAR with a Katana for example.

Edit:
Bollocks. My first double-post.

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you apparently didn't understand what I meant by attack round, i.e. how often you swing. Unfortunately, if there is an accepted term for this I'm not aware of it. When I said I can't estimate it, that's because the guy using HTH might swing twice every 5 seconds with 0 haste, but the guy with a scythe is swinging once every 12 seconds with 0. If hasted to the point of swinging twice as fast our HTH guy is swinging every 2.5 sends, but our scythe guy is every 6. I know those aren't the actual game numbers for these attack types, just numbers to fill in x in the haste cap equation. So the extra attack round I refer to is the point at which-in the same 30 seconds-the haste value would grant you the extra swing. Sorry, terminology limitation there.

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This is a common fallacy and only works in a vacuum. There are so many factors involved such as variable time length, more DDs... etc.

To put in on a parallel: accuracy? If you add 1% to 90%, how many attack rounds must you go through to see this on average? I guess accuracy sucks too.

STR? How much do you need until you "save a hit"? I guess STR sucks too. Etc...

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2. I chose not to use haste because I live longer and get more done generally with other boosts, eva and the like. If I don't need the eva, or def, or whatever more than haste, then yes, I'll usually use haste (depends on what gear I have).

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Gimping yourself to live longer is dumb (exception: full PDT to MACRO IN in a desperate situation), especially with the healing power we have nowadays.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

you apparently didn't understand what I meant by attack round, i.e. how often you swing. Unfortunately, if there is an accepted term for this I'm not aware of it. When I said I can't estimate it, that's because the guy using HTH might swing twice every 5 seconds with 0 haste, but the guy with a scythe is swinging once every 12 seconds with 0. If hasted to the point of swinging twice as fast our HTH guy is swinging every 2.5 sends, but our scythe guy is every 6. I know those aren't the actual game numbers for these attack types, just numbers to fill in x in the haste cap equation. So the extra attack round I refer to is the point at which-in the same 30 seconds-the haste value would grant you the extra swing. Sorry, terminology limitation there.

2. I chose not to use haste because I live longer and get more done generally with other boosts, eva and the like. If I don't need the eva, or def, or whatever more than haste, then yes, I'll usually use haste (depends on what gear I have).

3. I agree pld isn't about enmity, it's about enmity control. However, last guy to attck you is not the only factor controlling this. If haste is coming from uniform sources, and so is damage (i.e. a pld and war both swinging at mob with similar weap speed, acc and dmg) and so both have 60% haste the war will get the hate because they hit harder (and they prolly have an acc advantage, too), tie goes to the guy what hits harder.

4. in the face of all the jobs leeched to the moon without the skill to back it up, whiffing/doing no damage is exactly what I see alot of. It's also why most skill-up parties Ive been in with my bard I'm asked to madrigal, because it's more effective to that purpose than march.

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The fact that you are a solo Dancer explains sooooooooooooooooooo much.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Just thought I'd spread the whining so people against PDT can see how broken their melee jobs are as well.



Logically you should not be able to reach even 50%, since you double your TP gain and damage output. Ever see a mage or pet job double their damage? (That is like -30 BP timer... twice todays cap).

For sake of balance, the cap should be 25% haste. That would make you do like 1.5 times the damage, which is still a large increase in damage compared to many other sources of damage than melee.

I don't particularly care if you make it 25% in either magic, gear, JA or make it like roughly 10 cap on each.

Of course this is only for balance. If you want to keep melee the superior DDs, and leave pet jobs and magic users behind, you can always keep the game unbalanced. Though then it would be nice with some other nice bonuses, like 100% PDT for the jobs who can't do enough damage to get party invites due to the haste system.

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/slow clap

Good job!

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Try any job (even heavy melee) that actually has no native skill in a weapon. WAR with a Katana for example.

Edit:
Bollocks. My first double-post.

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Well, sure. I was just of the impression that we were talking about situations where you're seriously trying to deal as much damage as you can. I wouldn't melee with a 0-skill staff when up against a monster whose TP moves I'm afraid of.

-edit-
Oh yeah, just felt a sudden urge to comment on this

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Logically you should not be able to reach even 50%, since you double your TP gain and damage output. Ever see a mage or pet job double their damage? (That is like -30 BP timer... twice todays cap).

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Actually, I have seen a pet job triple their damage. He wore 25% haste in gear, Haste spell, and a couple of those marches you might know of.

Haste needs to become uncapped again. Not only is it annoying that i cant have hasso, last resort, or haste samba up at the same time but all of the haste atma SE gives are worthless because of that. Why don't you want your own atma to be useful SE?

This thread exists as an extension of the other one, why not lock it to?

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Originally Posted by other now locked thread

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Oh I have another request for my nerf list. Can we ban players who dualbox, they're up in my business all the time, fighting MY mobs.

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Where is my Apoc autoreraise nerf?

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Where is my ridiculously long kite solo nerf its not fair I have to wait for people! Where is my refresh atma nerf, its obviously an exploit having higher than normally attainable refresh!

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Originally Posted by This thread

Haste is broken to!

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If they capped haste at anything other than 80, there would be a global emotional breakdown of all DDs.

As if there wasn't enough QQ when they capped it at 80%.

Allow pets to get haste spell and marches, and this thread would never have been created.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

If they capped haste at anything other than 80, there would be a global emotional breakdown of all DDs.

As if there wasn't enough QQ when they capped it at 80%.

Allow pets to get haste spell and marches, and this thread would never have been created.

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There is a pet that gets a haste spell, AoE even.... just saying you know :)

ITT: Haste doesn't affect BSTs too.

80% isn't even attainable solo for most, how this is =/= to 100% PDT is just a mind***.

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how this is =/= to 100% PDT is just

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I think it was intentionally crazy like that.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

There is a pet that gets a haste spell, AoE even.... just saying you know :)

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Kinda irrelevant when Garuda doesn't need TP to do it's biggest damage ability.

Now if Shiva could get that haste, or there were separate Blood Pacts for physical/magical abilities...

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

80% haste for melee jobs is plain BS.
Just thought I'd spread the whining so people against PDT can see how broken their melee jobs are as well.

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Dont' forget the BS of the 80 some-odd % crit rates, or that something like 75% counter rate. God forbid any of us get to use the atma as intended. lol

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Dont' forget the BS of the 80 some-odd % crit rates, or that something like 75% counter rate. God forbid any of us get to use the atma as intended. lol

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Yep, hit the nail on the head, the most broken thing in Abyss right at the moment is crit. damage. I'm still utterly astounded that they raised the cap so far to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Kinda irrelevant when Garuda doesn't need TP to do it's biggest damage ability.

Now if Shiva could get that haste, or there were separate Blood Pacts for physical/magical abilities...

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Sarcasm... lost on the interwebz.... le sigh

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Originally Posted by Khajit

Haste needs to become uncapped again. Not only is it annoying that i cant have hasso, last resort, or haste samba up at the same time but all of the haste atma SE gives are worthless because of that. Why don't you want your own atma to be useful SE?

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Haste was still capped in the respective categories, so the total cap was still 93.75%, and Atma (since they count as equipment haste) would still be useless.

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Originally Posted by GlobalVariable

Pet giving haste to players != player giving haste to pet. Just saying.

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Ah but here she gives ti herself AND the players! ZOMG! Call the haste po-po! We has haste violation! pet haste and player haste all in one! It is riotz! It is mass genocidez! It is... who cares? seriously?

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Ah but here she gives ti herself AND the players! ZOMG! Call the haste po-po! We has haste violation! pet haste and player haste all in one! It is riotz! It is mass genocidez! It is... who cares? seriously?

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Dangit, I edited that out because I didn't wanna deal with the stupidity and you still quoted in it that 15 seconds. And didn't even comprehend what you were reading. Wow. Nobody gives a crap that one pet can self haste. The only reason a smn pulls out hastega is to haste melee dd PLAYERS. Also you don't sound sarcastic, just absurd.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Haste was still capped in the respective categories, so the total cap was still 93.75%, and Atma (since they count as equipment haste) would still be useless.

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You seem to forget how gimp a large portion of the player base is.

You could still put on the haste atma and replace 10% haste gear with like idk, attack and DA gear?

But I doubt that would outweigh the extra damage output you could get from a different third atma

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Originally Posted by Mirage

You could still put on the haste atma and replace 10% haste gear with like idk, attack and DA gear?

But I doubt that would outweigh the extra damage output you could get from a different third atma

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Pretty much not in a million years.

Who says haste cap is going over 25%?

Topdgg are you talking bout the total haste cap of just gear haste.

bst can cap haste... well can get 72~%