A Ninja without Throwing...

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You're one of the most absolutely bitter posters I've ever had the displeasure of reading on these forums.

Useless idea is useless anyways. Throwing can never, ever be viable no matter how much they buff it...

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Lol, it's cool. Medicine is usually bitter.

And thank you for the hopeless insight.

Did you even read AyinDygra's post? Or were you too busy pressing the like button on your own posts?

/sigh

This is what you've really degraded too huh.

I find myself saddened by how this thread eventually unfolded.

I read his post. Sorry, but I'll pass on "Stun Shuriken". How often do you see good RNGs and THFs using enfeebling Arrows/Bolts? Exactly.

As for his "Throwing weaponskills" solution, I'll take the word of people who actually coded the game over a random person's pseudo-scientific crap. "You can do A, and you can do B, so obviously you can do C which is sorta like A and B at the same time" is utter nonsense from a programming perspective.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

/sigh

This is what you've really degraded too huh.

I find myself saddened by how this thread eventually unfolded.

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And continue to do what the trend is:

Gang up on the person who posted the thread, offer no positive insight as to how throwing might ever be introduced back into the game, reiterate the current problem with said skill. Rinse and repeat.

What do you expect really? All most of you said was "Throwing sucks, it will never happen, you're gimp, goodbye."


But it's cool, because you can feel better by just blaming someone else, laying the fault on them so you can sleep better at night.

You're doing all the same things you yourself condemn those around you for...

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

You're doing all the same things you yourself condemn those around you for...

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I'm just throwing their own $#!% back in their face.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

I'm just throwing their own $#!% back in their face.

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Hammurabi was such a genius amirite.

This thread in one post:

You said: The Game needs to do A

Someone else said: The Game does not need to do A, it has always been better to do B

You said: Fuck B, real Ninjas do A and I want to role play my way.

Someone else said: Why are you doing A when it negatively impacts those around you?

You said: I like A so I'm doing A, why are you in my thread telling me why A doesn't work when the thread is about making A work?

I said: A cannot work because of the way the game is designed. It's functionally impossible to make A better than B.

You said: HEY BRO IT DOESN'T MATTER IF A IS BETTER THAN B. WHO ARE YOU TO TELL ME WHAT IS BETTER? IT IS WHAT DOES MORE BIG NUMBERS?! BIG NUMBERS ARE FOR ELITIST JERKS WHO KISS ASS FOR GEARZ.

I said: You're an idiot.

You said: NO U FATTY

I said: A will never work because X, Y, and Z. It's nice for fun when it doesn't affect anyone else, but they could never improve A enough to be worthwhile over B.

You said: This thread is not about why A will not work. Stop saying why A won't work, you are just being stupid. The idea is to make A work.

Everyone else: But A can't work. It's not how the game works. You cannot magically make A work.

You said: Shut up, stop reiterating the problem. Stop ganging up on me. I want to make A work.

Karb said: Bro you're just antagonizing them too

You said: I do what I want.

That about wraps it up. Throwing will never be good, or even passable because of how the entire freaking game works. RP all you want on your time, but don't expect not to get flak if you do it in a place or in a manner where you negatively impact other people.

Just to clarify:

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

"How often do you see good RNGs and THFs using enfeebling Arrows/Bolts?"

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You are underestimating the power of some additional effects that could be added, such as Amnesia to stop the enemy from spamming special attacks near the end of its life (or to make it easier to trigger in abyssea), or provoke when the enemy is running out of melee range and you're not subbing war, or ... the sky's the limit really, just use your imagination.

Also, it wouldn't hurt for them to increase the potency of certain additional effect ammunition for other jobs either.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

"You can do A, and you can do B, so obviously you can do C which is sorta like A and B at the same time" is utter nonsense from a programming perspective.

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That's not "utter nonsense", especially from a programming perspective. It's acknowledging the existence of variables and combat/interface code that can use those variables. I have some programming experience, and the fact that they could introduce such features as TP needed for job abilities, job abilities inflicting a status that allows the triggering of weaponskills and job abilities needing ammo or a ranged weapon, shows that the means to keep track of these variables exist and they "could" potentially add my proposed Job Ability that produces a "Throwing Weaponskill"-like result (in all the areas that matter).

In addition, these combat features came out after the Dev Team said they couldn't add throwing weaponskills so very long ago, so there is potential for them to go back and review this possibility with the functionality now added by these new features.

I like throwing shuriken on stuff... Should I quit ffxi asap?
I like some RPG in a MMORPG game... Should i quit ffxi asap?
I like to play a job, my way... Should I quit ffxi asap?
I like to read CS in ffxi, doing quest for the story and the fun of doing them not just for the silly reward they can offer... Should I quit ffxi asap?

If you answer "yes" on most question, then I'm sorry for you guys, but I will continue to play ffxi and I don't f...in care about being an elite if that mean I can't be myself and have "fun" on a "game" I "play" to pass good time with friends.

About OP, I'm agree that Shuriken could be improved a little. At least, having some 99 stack than can be higher then lv48 and decntly obtainable (or w/e it spell). Throwing skill was some good kick ass at 75, now everyone seem to forget how cool its was to deal massive DMG from those lil spiky stars...

If the first time they give Players access to the Amnesia debuff is via a Shuriken, there will be blood. Blood.

That said, no. Steps and Finishing moves are combat elements that were built from the ground up to be independent of previously existing elements. Ranged weapons and their functions have a code base that has existed since the beginning of the game.

A random example as to why they potentially could not make Throwing WS work would have to do with the fact that there isn't a single Ranged WS that works without a Ranged equipment component. All throwing items use the Ammo slot, leaving the Ranged slot open. If, upon their original coding of the game's Ranged combat mechanics, they required a call to the Ranged equipment slot at all in the process of firing a Ranged Weaponskill, it would be extremely difficult to alter the game's base code in such a way that would allow Throwing items to have a WS and would not break something in the existing Ranged WS code (Can you imagine trying to ask the Dev team to allow you to Raging Rush with only a Grip, and no Axe? Raging Grip!). Keep in mind Ranged combat mechanics are probably at least a thousand lines of code as an absolute minimum. "Find and Replace" doesn't really work out at that sort of scale.

Steps, Angons, and Waltzes also do not behave anywhere near the way Weaponskills do. Waltzes are just Chakra with a TP requirement. Angons don't have damage ratings, WSC, pDif, or accuracy, they're just Trump Cards that you equip. You're looking at these things like classes that you can just mush together whenever you want, when in reality they're significantly more complex and independent. Leaving code open to being mushed like that is horrible practice in a game this size; you would break a dozen things every single update that way (inb4 "but they already do").

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

This thread in one post:

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Well I congratulate you on your mathematical algebraic biased summary of this entire thread. You seem to be forgetting other people who might actually be FOR throwing, bringing back the nostalgia that was once in the Final Fantasy series. But you wouldn't care about such nonsense now would you?

As far as making something that would work, to please so called "fanboys" or "RP'ers who lack skill" which is some stereotypical hogwash, your best excuse is "It's too hard, so just %@#! it." Alright then continue to be lazy and unimaginative.

Not every piece in chess moves like a pawn, it's actually a colorful and thoughtful game where each piece is unique and has endless possibilities and outcomes. You seem to want to diminish this factor in favor of using less, doing less, being less, less, less, less.

Well great, once you can graduate from checkers, I'll be over playing chess with other thoughtful people, discussing complex battle tactics, while you peer over from your duo-tone world of black and white. Just don't be upset when you come over to have a game with me, because I have all my angles covered.

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Originally Posted by Darwena

I like throwing shuriken on stuff... Should I quit ffxi asap?
I like some RPG in a MMORPG game... Should i quit ffxi asap?
I like to play a job, my way... Should I quit ffxi asap?
I like to read CS in ffxi, doing quest for the story and the fun of doing them not just for the silly reward they can offer... Should I quit ffxi asap?

If you answer "yes" on most question, then I'm sorry for you guys, but I will continue to play ffxi and I don't f...in care about being an elite if that mean I can't be myself and have "fun" on a "game" I "play" to pass good time with friends.

About OP, I'm agree that Shuriken could be improved a little. At least, having some 99 stack than can be higher then lv48 and decntly obtainable (or w/e it spell). Throwing skill was some good kick ass at 75, now everyone seem to forget how cool its was to deal massive DMG from those lil spiky stars...

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Admitedly I don't know much after Page 2, but this Thread began with "Ninja Should get a buff to throwing" in which i replied "The amount of time/effort required to buff Throwing would be impossible. You would either need to nerf Ninja, Or buff throwing to the point NIN would be a better Ranged attacker than RNG"

To which i got something a long the lines of "BRRHRLJGLHRLBBRLBRLUELITISTS"

To which i said "It just wont happen, But that doesn't mean you can't RP, Go throw Shurikens. You don't seem to mind others opinions on your damage"

To which the thread continued to degrade.

Point Being, This thread could have ended on page 1 with "Ninja will likely never get a throwing buff, But it doesn't mean you can't throw if you want too"

It didnt, And its not entirely the fault of those opposing the OP. Its a joint failure. Everyones to blame, and no ones immune to it.

At the very least I told him to play how he wants, but don't expect a Buff to Throwing, because it wont come.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

At the very least I told him to play how he wants, but don't expect a Buff to Throwing, because it wont come.

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This is pretty much what I've ended my past few posts with. Shit, it's not a crime to go and goof off on your own time. It's just annoying as shit to force other people to deal with your goofing off in a group scenario. Negatively impacting other people with RP shuriken bullshit is the only problem I've ever had with it.

Saying the game can't buff Shuriken enough to make them worth a damn is not me being "Anti-Shuriken". It's me being realistic and knowing how the game functions.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

there isn't a single Ranged WS that works without a Ranged equipment component.

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Mistral Axe anyone... Would that be a Boomeraxe?

But I guess Mistal Axe would be the exception?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

This is pretty much what I've ended my past few posts with....

Saying the game can't buff Shuriken enough to make them worth a damn is not me being "Anti-Shuriken". It's me being realistic and knowing how the game functions.

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Just because you're too lazy to make the changes, that has nothing to do with the developers who might actually care about nostalgia. And just because the NIN you've encountered have their throwing skill below 3 digits, doesn't mean that Sange does completely terrible damage that it wastes your valuable playtime.

Would it hurt you to think outside the box for once?

Thinking outside the box only works when the box doesn't represent things that are actually possible to do in any way shape or form.

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

Mistral Axe anyone... Would that be a Boomeraxe?

But I guess Mistal Axe would be the exception?

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Gust Slash, Cyclone, and Bora Axe are also Ranged.

Everyone makes mistakes though :x, his point still stands. SE themselves said its impossible for them to make Throwing Weaponskills due to the nature of throwing Weapons (boomerangs, Darts, main/Sub, infinite/Ammo'd), etc. That the game wouldn't recognize the two as seperate. So the game couldn't tell the difference between Shuriken or a Boomerang.

Something like that, Its been a long time, Either way SE said at the least Ranged WS are out of the question, it could have been excuses but we don't know.

Really, I've even considered this, I have brainstormed, But there is no logical way to make Throwing Viable without giving NIN a supply of throwing items with the DMG of Sky-winds and about 50 Delay in mass supply that stack to 99. Even that is still stretching it in terms of being useful. I tried to think of any other way that did not involve a nerf of the job and i cannot simply think of a way to make it work. Throwing is Limited. as is ranged as a whole. Maybe
SE can just make a WS that throws the katana like a Kunai "bora axe' Style. there we go, NIN's throwing Kunai.

@Bul, ITT: "Ranged Attacks call a Ranged equipment function" = "Any attack with a range greater than 6.0' requires a Ranged weapon"

Melee WS with greater than 6.0' range are still Melee WS using Melee functions with a range exception. You don't use Ranged Attack for Mistral Axe, do you? No. Ranged attacks and Melee attacks have been completely separate beasts since 2002.

That said, I really really really don't know how "THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE AT ALL UNLESS THEY MAKE A COMPLETELY NEW GAME" comes off as "I THINK THE DEVELOPERS ARE TOO LAZY TO DO IT". Christ. They're nowhere near the same thing. The Developers are the ones who said Throwing WS is impossible. The game itself precludes Throwing for TP ever being a decent source of damage. They can't just "Get rid of Haste". Sorry. That's a pipe dream.

@Karbuncle, the only thing I could possibly think of was making a new Shuriken synth with high damage, low delay, and expensive but abundant mats like something in the high-end Smithing or Goldsmithing line (Ingots?). Then, giving NIN a JA which can be potentially fulltimed that acts like Velocity Shot; Increasing melee attack Delay (WITHOUT touching Melee Attack, or possibly Acc as well if made more important later) while allowing the NIN to throw 3 Shuriken at once every throw. The reason Melee Attack/Acc need to stay untouched is the fact that you *WILL* be using Blade: Jin/Blade: Hi despite TP'ing with Shurikens. You're also going to be in Melee attack range fulltime anyways. Using Shuriken from greater than 6.0' away is just dumb, your Ranged Attack/Acc get shot.

Yeah, it's an expensive as shit solution, but Ranged DD has always been expensive. Using consumables for damage = paying out the nose. The only issue with Oberon's Bullets and such for COR at the moment is the completely screwed materials supply.

So I decided to test my own things out and walk the walk, instead of talking the talk all the time.

For all you number crunchers out there.
Try not to get a boner, because you finally get to see a chart.


THROWING SKILL: 359

FOOD: SQUID SUSHI
ATMA'S: STOUT ARM, GNARLED HORN, RAZED RUINS


STATS

Elvaan 90 NIN/45 WAR

STR 94+106
DEX 80+119
VIT 83+60
AGI 77+146
INT 68+60
MND 70+59
CHR 70+60

ATK: 691 (Berserk ON)


GEAR

MAIN: SEKKA+2 (AGI)
SUB: SEKKA+2 (AGI)
AMMO: MANJI SHURIKEN
HEAD: SAIKA HACHIMAKI
NECK: ARCTIER'S TORQUE
L.EAR: VISION EARRING
R.EAR: SUPPANOMIMI
BODY: WAR SHINOBI GI
HANDS: NINJA TEKKO+1
L.RING: CROSSBOWMAN'S RING
R.RING: BEHEMOTH RING+1
BACK: AMEMET MANTLE+1
WAIST: HURLING BELT
LEGS: NINJA HAKAMA
FEET: MISSLE BOOTS

AREA: ABYSS-GRAUB

MOB: STYGAN DJINN (Decent Challange)

THROWS:

#1 Crit 288
#2 Crit 299
#3 Strikes True 182
#4 Crit 295
#5 Crit 292

SANGE: 1490 (4 shadows) All 5 hits landed


AREA: ABYSS-ULEG

MOB: SIERRA TIGER (Incredibly Tough)

THROWS:

#1 Crit 214
#2 Strikes True 131
#3 Crit 221
#4 Crit 223
#5 Crit 202

SANGE: 830 (4 shadows) All 5 hits landed


AREA: ABYSS-ALTEP

MOB: SAND SWEEPER (Tough)

THROWS:

#1 Crit 249
#2 Crit 256
#3 Crit 260
#4 Crit 260
#5 Crit 244

SANGE: 664 (4 shadows) 4 hits landed


SPECIAL: SWIFTSHOT TONIC

AREA: ABYSS-GRAUB

MOB: GOBLIN MEATGRINDER (EASY PREY)

THROWS:

#1 539 -----> Crit 331 + Strikes True 208
#2 664 -----> 2X Crit 332 + 332
#3 660 -----> 2X Crit 325 + 335
#4 522 -----> Crit 318 + Strikes True 204
#5 402 -----> 2X Strikes True 202 + 200



So basically it looks like Sange throws dont factor in crits, because you'll notice the damage difference between 5 regular throws and Sange (Being 5 hits as 1 Throw). Keep in mind that I'm using Lv48 Shuriken, But still 1 Throw doesn't seem to bad for damage, even with such low level shuriken.

Get Sange to factor in critical damage, get in higher level shuriken, so that every once in awhile we can have a spike damage from Sange, and change Sange to not have you lose shadows, so that it doesn't annoy people.

I'm gonna spell this out for you, try not to get lost, read it til you get it.
Manji Shuriken have a 192 delay.
Kannagi+Kamome have a combined (210+180) 390 delay.
When you hit the delay reduction cap of 80%, this becomes a new delay of 78.
78+78=156, you get slightly more then 2 melee attacks rounds per throw.(throwing delay is 192)
with apoc, /war, brutal, eponas you have triple attack+18%, double attack+18%, which means 54% of the time, you get an extra attack per melee round.
So at +54% melee attacks per round, every time you attack, you get 1 extra attack, because you attack twice every round.
you get slightly more then 2 attack rounds per throw, you get 3 attacks per round.
Your throwing damage needs to be slightly better then 6 melee attacks and give as much tp as 6 melee attacks to be on par with just meleeing.
Throwing comes no where near either of these 2 things, and never will, it's impossible unless they make haste affect ranged attacks.

Argue against me, go ahead.

Number crunchers? Boner? Anecdotal data?

That's not how it works, bro. Any number cruncher worth half a salt can already determine your minimum, maximum, and average damage against any given target with Shuriken. More importantly, they can determine your damage over time. You're really not presenting anything we don't already know. Shuriken are still crap damage.

Edit: Everything Wish12oz said +1

I'm done with negative pessimistic people who just wanna run $#!% their own way and PI$$ on everyone else who presents a creative argument.

Have fun in your pseudo-FF world where you can't do anything other than calculate the next equation, and flash your new studs so that the "lesser folk" can spam /check you, after you come back from shopping at the "Abyssea Mall". Just let logistics run your entire life, and to hell with creativity, personality and character, because they're dead in such a society. Live in your suburbs where every building looks the same, and every person has the same kind of car, every wardrobe is shaded pastel that camouflages itself into it's surroundings, every song on the radio is bland, played out and pretty much sounds the same, with no innovation or emotion whatsoever.

Because that is certainly the way I forsee FFXI slowly becoming..

I'll go back to the underground, where the minority still has integrity, morals and dignity. The biggest mistake I made was expecting any of you to believe in some kind of change, but rather you hold to the current system that's already in place, defending it whole heartedly. So why change the game at all? What's the point in even having these forums, if people can't even speak their minds on new creative idea's that hold true to Final Fantasy nostalgia? No, now it's time to gang up against the one who stands out amongst the crowd, because god forbid, that anyone be different.

Now I await the final drone responses, riddled with predictability and cliched insults.

I'm out.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Obviously you don't understand the chess metaphor at all "bro".

It takes no skill to be able to kiss @$$ (sry, maybe it takes @$$ kissing skill) to be in line for all the best gear, getting your whole LS to camp empyrean weapon NM's for you, and give you all the coins, cards, stones, jewels needed for your uber set of gear. While you stand in 1 spot, smashing 1~2 macro's in order get the highest dmg.

Even World of Warcraft had better boss mechanics, at least there were times when disengaging from the enemy was a smart thing to do, or backing up and using distance to the advantage.

But, guess what? FFXI is turning into a button mashing-fest, where everyones so happy to have +300 STR and 3000 HP. Because the bigger the better. But that's just the popular mentality, and you lack the imagination needed to even come up with creative ideas, but rather just spew the same #$@% that is already in the game.

If you STILL haven't realized, I'm talking about putting throwing back into the game that is viable.

But all you can do is gang up with everyone else slapping Naruto insults on me, because you lack individuality and can't fight your own battles.

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Oh my GOD you are stupid. Seriously. Do you read your posts before you push the reply button? You're dodging everybody's counter-arguments and insulting both the game and anybody who doesn't agree with you. Shut up and go home, you've lost any credibility, if you even had any to begin with.

Akuji, Call this whatever you want, Cliche or not.

But have you presented even 1 coherent, realistic idea to improving throwing, that doesn't require a nerf to Dual Wield or Haste?

I'm genuinely Curious if even you yourself can think of any single way to improve throwing that doesn't involve a nerf in some way.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Lots of stuff that doesn't pertain to my response.

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Why don't you respond to me?
I posted exactly why throwing does not work.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Why don't you respond to me?
I posted exactly why throwing does not work.

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Ok, do that exact same equation, but now with Sange, and not just 1 regular throw. do it without low level shuriken. Factor in that you're not always standing in 1 spot, or that you might have to run out of range because a mob is doing some nasty AoE's that you would probably die from, in the meantime you could be doing ranged attack damage.

He already did that, did you read anything he posted at all?

The level of the shuriken and sange does not matter. He could use lvl 48 katanas to make the equation more "equal" and the result would still be greatly in favor of the katanas.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Ok, do that exact same equation, but now with Sange, and not just 1 regular throw with low level shuriken.

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I already explained why sange doesn't work in another thread, but it's the same thing, you lose between 4 and 8 attack rounds using sange and recasting utsu ni.

4-8 rounds is 12->24 attacks worth of damage and tp gain. Sange doesn't come close to this, if you can prove it does, go for it. I just said how much it needs to do to keep up, if you can prove it can do this much, you can prove it can be useful.

I also didn't give exact damage numbers, I only gave delays, and # of attacks, and amount of TP.
If your throwing damage can exceed 6 melee attacks worth of damage and tp gain, then throwing can be better. It just doesn't do that much, unless you're incredibly gimp, or have super duper amazing effing shurikens, like 500+ base damage.

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Originally Posted by Kazen

He already did that, did you read anything he posted at all?

The level of the shuriken and sange does not matter. He could use lvl 48 katanas to make the equation more "equal" and the result would still be greatly in favor of the katanas.

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Sure, but the point you fail to see is that there IS no high level shuriken.

Ah hell, why am I still doing this, most of don't bother to open their mind to new idea's anyways lol... It's like one of those painters who just throw paint blotches and scribble on a canvass, calling it "creative".

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Sure, but the point you fail to see is that there IS no low level shuriken.

Ah hell, why am I still doing this, most of don't bother to open their mind to new idea's anyways lol... It's like one of those painters who just throw paint blotches and scribble on a canvass, calling it "creative".

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have you presented even 1 coherent, realistic idea to improving throwing, that doesn't require a nerf to Dual Wield or Haste?

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If you're So Creative and can think outside of the box, answer me that question please.

Cause I've honestly sat down and tried to think of Realistic ways to Adjust Throwing as an Ability for Ninja and nothing i have come up with is anything short of Breaking the game.

I have Tried and its just the way FFXI works would make it completely unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

I already explained why sange doesn't work in another thread, but it's the same thing, you lose between 4 and 8 attack rounds using sange and recasting utsu ni.

4-8 rounds is 12->24 attacks worth of damage and tp gain. Sange doesn't come close to this, if you can prove it does, go for it. I just said how much it needs to do to keep up, if you can prove it can do this much, you can prove it can be useful.

I also didn't give exact damage numbers, I only gave delays, and # of attacks, and amount of TP.
If your throwing damage can exceed 6 melee attacks worth of damage and tp gain, then throwing can be better. It just doesn't do that much, unless you're incredibly gimp, or have super duper amazing effing shurikens, like 500+ base damage.

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All I get from this post is that you're happy with the way the game currently is, so why the hell are you even on these forums making suggestions, unless you're protesting creativity?

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Ah hell, why am I still doing this, most of don't bother to open their mind to new idea's anyways lol... It's like one of those painters who just throw paint blotches and scribble on a canvass, calling it "creative".

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Open their minds to other things?
It's simple math that throwing is inferior, why you cannot figure this out, I will never understand. You're basically trying to argue that 3 is bigger then 8.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

If you're So Creative and can think outside of the box, answer me that question please.

Cause I've honestly sat down and tried to think of Realistic ways to Adjust Throwing as an Ability for Ninja and nothing i have come up with is anything short of Breaking the game.

I have Tried and its just the way FFXI works would make it completely unrealistic.

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Give NIN a ranged attack/accuracy boost
Make Sange just some sort of "Barrage" Ability without having you lose shadows
Increase the damage slightly on shuriken/get in higher level shuriken with higher damage

There you go, every 5 mins or so, you have a burst ranged throw that uses 5 shuriken.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

All I get from this post is that you're happy with the way the game currently is, so why the hell are you even on these forums making suggestions, unless you're protesting creativity?

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I like the way the job works, and want to keep it the way it works, but I want ninja to do more melee damage, because it cannot keep up with with warrior. Very good Ukon warrior's are about 10% damage above me, I know ninja could make up this differance with new JAs and JTs, but not with BS stuff like throwing, so I put down the bad ideas and explain why stuff like throwing is dumb, to prevent SE from thinking it's a good idea. Like when they added yonin and innin, and suddenly thought ninja was all fixed and super good, when in reality those buffs were complete crap.

Ninja has been my favorite job since I first leveled it in 2004, all the nerfs to ninja and upgrades to every other job made it crap after awhile. Abyssea made it good again, because ninja was only good for weak mobs, and everything has now been weak for awhile. Once we leave abyssea if stuff is suddenly hard again, ninja will go back to the gutter, so we need to get SE to make GOOD improvements, not BS like adding new shurikens that can NEVER keep up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Give NIN a ranged attack/accuracy boost
Make Sange just some sort of "Barrage" Ability without having you lose shadows
Increase the damage slightly on shuriken/get in higher level shuriken with higher damage

There you go, every 5 mins or so, you have a burst ranged throw that uses 5 shuriken.

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You need the shuriken damage to spike greatly to keep up, 300+ base damage, and you need them to be super cheap and easy to make on top of what you're suggesting to make it useful. Do you really think SE will do this? I don't, and SE has basically proven threw the years they are not going to, or they would of already. Throwing is for low levels, get over it.

EDIT: they don't even let subbing ranger give access to velocity shot, that is how scared they are of ranged attacks, this is further proof SE will never do it.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

You need the shuriken damage to spike greatly to keep up, 300+ base damage, and you need them to be super cheap and easy to make on top of what you're suggesting to make it useful. Do you really think SE will do this? I don't, and SE has basically proven threw the years they are not going to, or they would of already. Throwing is for low levels, get over it.

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Pun Intended :D?

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Pun Intended :D?

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You no like? （´・ω・｀）

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

I like the way the job works, and want to keep it the way it works, but I want ninja to do more melee damage, because it cannot keep up with with warrior. Very good Ukon warrior's are about 10% damage above me, I know ninja could make up this differance with new JAs and JTs, but not with BS stuff like throwing, so I put down the bad ideas and explain why stuff like throwing is dumb, to prevent SE from thinking it's a good idea.

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Please tell me which other Final Fantasy games you have played? Explain in which of those that "Throwing" was not a key feature to the Ninja Job or a Ninja-like Character?

Great you want Ninja to be "uber", but worrying about 10% less damage? Are people you hang around with in game calling you on it? Because if they judge you for doing 10% less damage in a video game, you need to hang out with some different people... People with decency.

10% less damage than a freaken WARRIOR no doubt, the king of melee jobs. I still don't understand how you would want to eradicate Role Playing from an RPG. But whatever I guess?...

The real problem is elitists calling out people for not being "the best" or "perfect" when they themselves can't give a definition to those things. Because there is no definition. You can do your hardest at anything, but there's always going to be someone that comes along and is "better" than you.

Next time someone calls you for doing 10% less damage, ask them to define the word "Perfection".

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Originally Posted by Akujima

The real problem is elitists calling out people for not being "the best" or "perfect" when they themselves can't give a definition to those things. Because there is no definition. You can do your hardest at anything, but there's always going to be someone that comes along and is "better" than you.

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Actually eventually you can hit perfect in this game because it is finite, unlike rl where everybody is imperfect, in this game once you obtain all the gear and skills that could possibly pertain to a job then you are perfect. Granted the game is designed to make that take a very long time but it's still possible.

So no, in this game, when dealing with a single job there won't always be somebody better than you. The same level as you sure, but not better.

Part of the definition is knowing what not to do because it isn't efficient, and throwing isn't efficient. Therefore if you're using throwing you are not being "the best". End of story. Your arguments about morals and all that other bullshit do not apply to a game that deals with absolute numbers. If you are doing less damage than you could be doing, then you are being inefficient and wasting everybody's time during an event. There's no room for morals in that formula.

Again, calling you out on the fact that you complained about casuals yet you are the textbook definition of one. Saying this in a nicer way so as to not get my post edited. Please kindly leave; while there is room in this game for casuals, there isn't room for you spewing your white-knight bullshit on a useless outdated ability that nobody cares about anymore, except for you. It can't possibly be fixed because of in-game limitations and balance issues, therefore, leave it alone.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Please tell me which other Final Fantasy games you have played? Explain in which of those that "Throwing" was not a key feature to the Ninja Job or a Ninja-like Character?

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Not every FF game has been exactly the same, quit thinking it has been, basic elements are there for jobs, and thats it. Ninja still has throwing in this game, its just not good once you get haste gear. You need to figure this out and stop thinking throwing is all a ninja should be doing.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Great you want Ninja to be "uber", but worrying about 10% less damage? Are people you hang around with in game calling you on it? Because if they judge you for doing 10% less damage in a video game, you need to hang out with some different people... People with decency.

10% less damage than a freaken WARRIOR no doubt, the king of melee jobs. I still don't understand how you would want to eradicate Role Playing from an RPG. But whatever I guess?...

The real problem is elitists calling out people for not being "the best" or "perfect" when they themselves can't give a definition to those things. Because there is no definition. You can do your hardest at anything, but there's always going to be someone that comes along and is "better" than you.

Next time someone calls you for doing 10% less damage, ask them to define the word "Perfection".

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"Perfect for a job" is having everything useful the job can use. I'm 3-4 items away now for my ninja.

No one has called me out for being weaker then others, because its not that big of a difference. If you're asking if my group would bring a completely inferior job to anything though, we would not. It's a waste of time/manpower, and the person could bring something useful. I have 9 jobs leveled, guess which ones I play? Thats right, I only play the useful ones, my pld, drk, sam, and rng never see the light of day. When ninja wasn't useful as a tank anymore, I leveled pld, and I tanked on that. My idea of fun, is not bringing some gimp job and playing like an idiot, if that's your idea of fun, then I hope I never run into you in game. And maybe if you were better at ninja, and bothered to learn how the game worked instead of wishing it worked differently, you could solo your kannagi instead of pleeding with people to do it for you. I solo'd half of mine at 85, I'm sure you could do it even easier at 90.