SoA or any future boxed collections

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the technical term for GigaByte is NOT GiB it is GB

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They are both technical terms- they are used to distinguish between different calculations of byte size. Windows reports a Kilobyte as 1024 bytes, megabyte as 1024 Kilobytes, etc. However, hardware manufacturers and some other operating systems report bytes as 1 Kilobyte = 1000 bytes, 1 Megabyte = 1000 Kilobytes, etc.

This is why there is a significant discrepancy in how windows reports the capacity of a disk vs how the disk manufacturer reports it (It is not just because of the space used by the filesystem itself)

The term "Mibibyte (MiB) and Kibibyte (KiB) etc refer to the former. The term was created to disambiguate between the two different calculations, but the terms are not in wide use by the general populace at this time.

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Originally Posted by Godofgods

Incase it helps anyone. They are releaseing a new combinded disk. As for having all you want on it, youll jsut have to wait and see.

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Following that link, it says "Windows® PC (Digital Download) $39.99" which suggests they aren't currently planning to release a physical copy.

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Originally Posted by oliveira

Face it whenever you guys dislike it or not, the installers from the "Collection" versions only have half of the game data and you have NO CHOICE but download the other half of the game from POL using the update function.

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If you'd reread the OP, you'd find that is what this thread was addressing. It only (slightly) later derailed into physical vs. digital distribution.

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Originally Posted by wildsprite and analhelm

A bunch of irrelevant crap.

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That has nothing to do with this thread. Please take it elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The size of a single sided 2 layer DVD under the DVD-9 specification is 7.95 GB (or more accurately GiB). What are you trying to say. (1 side 1 layer DVD-5 is 4.37 GB)

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Very good! Now, care to explain why you believe that S-E would both pay to ship DVD's that are (at least) half-empty and pay for the bandwidth to upload thousands of copies of the information that could have been pressed onto said half-empty DVD's? If nobody else, I'm sure S-E's shareholders would be very interested in what can only be described as a gross mismanagement of corporate funds.

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Are you just trying to be an ass again? I guess you didn't read the part about not trying to insult me?

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Allow me to explain with your own words:

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Because, people don't get it, and I'm making an apparently futile effort to help them get it?

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It is is a physical unlikelyhood that there is so much overlap between each individual expansion/game disc that we can condense 8 GB worth of data into 3GB.

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Unless, of course, much of the information contained on each of the discs applies to older content or is otherwise redundant. Y'know, overlap.

Otherwise, S-E could spend about 2 yen more per unit to press dual-layerd PS2 DVDs and call it a day instead of ZOMG bandwidth costs.

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As I said before, there is a simple way to determine how much overlap there actually is, and that's by the data downloaded in the update process.

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So simple that you haven't tried it yet? C'mon, this is your big opportunity to put me in my place and maybe get me to shut up!

1. Back up your macros and settings.
2. Uninstall the game.
3. Take note of data sizes:
   • on the install media
   • after a fresh install, but before updating
   • after updating
4. post your results, for science!

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But i'm not sure why you even started talking about this in the first place.

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Originally Posted by oliveira

Face it whenever you guys dislike it or not, the installers from the "Collection" versions only have half of the game data and you have NO CHOICE but download the other half of the game from POL using the update function.

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This thread is asking for new collection discs/installs to include a fuller amount of the game data so you dont spend several hours updating

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1. And then someone responded saying it wasn't possible for the entire game to fit on a single disc, because the '06 collection disc and the WotG disc don't add up.
2. And then I pointed out that all the original (PS2 NA) discs add up to considerably more than the '08 collection, with lots of room to spare.
3. And then you came in with your precocious little routine of trying to sound like you know what you're talking about, failing to do basic math in the process.
4. And then I pointed out the absolute fiscal irresponsibility of your conjecture.

And here we are! Wasn't that fun?

What about multiple disks?

/hides

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Originally Posted by oliveira

Guys, I have an JPN PS2

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Which brings up an interesting question: do you know if one can mix and match JP and NA discs on the same PS2/3 without having to muck about with hacks and/or other such third-party tools? :D Or are you just playing with straight JP hardware and software?

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Originally Posted by Jackstin

What about multiple disks?

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That's pretty much what they've always done in a sense, at least for the PC version. Ultimate Collection Abyssea Edition has separate installers for:

1. PlayOnline Viewer
2. Final Fantasy XI
3. Rise of the Zilart
4. Chains of Promathia
5. Treasrues of Aht Urhgan
6. Wings of the Goddess

and a seventh, meta-installer to walk through the whole thing. It's pretty much a straight 1:1 copy of the original release discs bundled into one package, because cheap/lazy.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

a seventh, meta-installer.

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Are you referring to the autorun program that has all of the expansions and DirectX listed as buttons to click? Or is there something that's more automated than that?

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Originally Posted by Catmato

Are you referring to the autorun program that has all of the expansions and DirectX listed as buttons to click? Or is there something that's more automated than that?

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FINALFANTASYXIUCAE.exe is a ~2.3 MB application that first unzips the three data files it comes with into seven individual directories (DirectX, POL, FFXI, 4 expansions), presents the user with a screen with the seven individual packages as list of checkboxes, and then automatically walks through the individual installers the user checked, from the top of the list to the bottom.

It's still not exactly fire-and-forget, but it's considerably more robust than the autorun splash screen that came on my original 5 CD set.

I should contrast this with the console versions. There, FFXI and its add-ons must be installed from within the PlayOnline Viewer itself (via an "install software" option on the POL login screen). After loading the disc and selecting that option, you're taken to a splash screen where you can opt to watch the introductory movie (the one that PC players are shown every time they start FFXI by default), install the software, or watch the credits (or something like that, been a while).

If you choose to install, the player then gets to watch a crystal spin around for an hour or so while all FFXI software on the disc is installed; even if a disc has more than one package bundled onto it (e. g. FFXI + RotZ), there's still no option to pick and choose what to install.

So it seems at least some effort is made on the console end of things to mesh things together into a seamless whole when it comes to these collections, versus "cram 7 CDs and 2 DVDs into a ZIP file with a fresh coat of paint" that PC seems to get currently.

(On the other hand, this means that, outside Japan, only PC players can see what FFXI looks like with no expansions installed, if you're into that sort of thing.)

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Now, care to explain why you believe that S-E would both pay to ship DVD's that are (at least) half-empty and pay for the bandwidth to upload thousands of copies of the information that could have been pressed onto said half-empty DVD's?

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I don't? Quote where I expressed this belief? I do not personally feel they should offer a pressed disc at all. The primary clientele of this game is more than able to just download it.

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Unless, of course, much of the information contained on each of the discs applies to older content or is otherwise redundant. Y'know, overlap.

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You could, y,know, actually go check the contents of the CDs and compare the files and see just how much overlap there actually is, instead of just flinging snarky sarcasm at me and trying to insult me?

There might be "plenty of room" for more data on a DVD, when you account for some hypothetical amount of overlap you haven't shown or proven (The one bit of data that absolutely must overlap is monsters/enemy models/sounds/etc introduced in a previous expansion but used in the next one, in case you do not install the expansions in order or do not install all of them) but there's still not enough room on a normal DVD to include all of the most current data, as the total size of FFXI far exceeds the size of a standard DVD. You would still need at least 2 discs for that. So, what you are asking for is still less practical/probable than you want us to think it is.

I don't understand why this is such a big deal in the first place. Yes, it's annoying, but it's something most people only need to do once. It's not rocket science, either.

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So simple that you haven't tried it yet? C'mon, this is your big opportunity to put me in my place and maybe get me to shut up!

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Sorry, too lazy. I already reinstalled the game a week ago because I got a new SSD and had to reinstall my OS since disk cloning didn't work. Maybe when we're fighting over something that won't take as long to analyze. Next time!

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I don't? Quote where I expressed this belief?

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Oh, little grasshopper...

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Vana'diel Collection 2008: 2.95 GB

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

If the collection disc is smaller in data size than the original discs, then more data must have to be downloaded through the updater.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Do you know what the capacity of a DVD is(?)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

1 side 1 layer DVD-5 is 4.37 GB

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Uploads are priced per bit. DVDs are priced per disc, no matter how many or how few bits are on each disc. If you shift bit delivery from uploads to DVD (bits that would have to get from S-E to the player regardless), you reduce the cost of the former with no change in cost of the latter; this is a net cost savings.

Even if DVD bits might have to get overwritten by upload bits at a later date, there is still no cost in including those bits on DVD anyway; at worst it puts off the cost of pushing the new upload bits until a later date (letting S-E do more profitable things with that money in the meantime).

Executive summary:

• Pressing redundant data to otherwise empty DVD = free
• Uploading data = $$$

Now, did you "state" that...

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

you believe that S-E would both pay to ship DVD's that are (at least) half-empty and pay for the bandwidth to upload thousands of copies of the information that could have been pressed onto said half-empty DVD's?

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No, you did not. But did you actually believe it? Either you did or you hadn't gotten there yet. If the collection disc was near capacity you would have had a case, but as it stands now, this is the only possible terminus to your train of thought.

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• Pressing redundant data to otherwise empty DVD = free
• Uploading data = $$$

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You forgot one thing: Pressing the disc at all = $$$. No, the amount of data on it doesn't impact the actual cost, though technically you are wasting at least small amounts of money by not fully utilizing a disc. However, I can not claim to know if there is a real measureable cost difference in different capacity DVDs/CDs/Blurays. That being said including data on the disc just for the sake of filling it up when people will have to download that data again anyway may be "free", but it's also useless. Even if they press the disc to contain 100% of the game data up to the minute accurate right this second, it will still be out of date as soon as the next patch or hotfxi rolls out. This means they either need to release new discs every several patches just to update the installers (more $$$), or just make everyone download the update data as they always have

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Either you did or you hadn't gotten there yet. If the collection disc was near capacity you would have had a case,

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You forgot that I agreed and admitted that there is some redundant data amongst the individual expansion discs- There has to be, in case you install the expansions out of order or don't install all of them. But since you're not forced to install everything on the collection CD (unless I'm mistaken? I could be) that redundant data would still need to exist multiple times for each expansion installer, unless they bothered to program the installer scripts to read the same files for each expansion (which wouldn't be hard to do, but you don't know, maybe they're stupid and don't know how to do this?)

I don't know if you think I'm opposed to the original idea of this thread or not, so I'll just spell it out, I'm not. However, I'm a realist and I think hell will freeze over before SE actually does this. All we're really fighting over here is the likely reasons why.

I'm not sure why you're being so agressive and borderline insulting towards me, when I"m not even really against the premise of the thread.

Checking my FFXI folder on my PC the game takes up around 11.1GB right now.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'm not sure why you're being so agressive and borderline insulting towards me, when I"m not even really against the premise of the thread.

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Because earlier you seemed to be coming off with an aggressive tone, also, aggressive tones of conversation often gather more attention. If he believes you were ignoring his points, or you were being aggressive, its only natural to become more aggressive yourself in an attempt to be paid attention to and at the same time, show the other person how they were coming across.

I wont act as if I remember the rest of this or how you seemed in the 1st bit of this ongoing debate, however if you were in fact aggressive, then this may be how you seemed to him, in which case it should serve as an example to you of how you should better revise the way someone may read and take in your post. This is mostly just explaining why I think he may have the sort of aggressive tone he has right now. If its right or not I cant say, but it would make sense, and if I remember correctly you do at times seem to come off more aggressive even if you mean to or not.

Whenever we release a new all-in-one collection we make sure to include as much of the recent updates as possible. As for installing all the expansions at once, unfortunately because of the way that the data is installed, it's not possible to do at this time.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Whenever we release a new all-in-one collection we make sure to include as much of the recent updates as possible. As for installing all the expansions at once, unfortunately because of the way that the data is installed, it's not possible to do at this time.

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I don't know, I can just copy my entire FFXI folder somewhere, delete the game, copy the files back, and re-create the registry keys and it will work just fine. I don't see why you can't have just one installer that goes through all of the expansion's data in sequence without having to do anything in between each one. All you'd have to do is set up the installer script to install the base game, then install the data for one expansion, then the next, etc. Then the added bonus of this is the game only shows up once in add/remove programs.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Whenever we release a new all-in-one collection we make sure to include as much of the recent updates as possible. As for installing all the expansions at once, unfortunately because of the way that the data is installed, it's not possible to do at this time.

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Question: Will the non-collection versions of Seekers have all the expansion data for players needing to reinstall?

This is particularly important for the Xbox version.

Unless they want to release a 3 DVD set, it probably will not. That is likely what they're avoiding with their 24 hour download/update time.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Whenever we release a new all-in-one collection we make sure to include as much of the recent updates as possible. As for installing all the expansions at once, unfortunately because of the way that the data is installed because of the way we package the installers and the monstrously outdated packaging software we are using, it's not possible to do at this time.

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Seriously, migrating our FFXI installs to another PC has been popular since 2006. In fact, once I took the time to repackage all of the installers into 1. Here's a hint: each expansion does NOT need to be a separate program. It makes no bearing on how the game runs or with using registration codes for expansions. If we can literally copy paste the FFXI folder and run a batch to register all the dlls and run a simple registry hack to move the entire game, including all of our PUB folders from one machine to another.. Quit packaging each expansion separately. We only need 1 line in our Add/Remove programs. In my case, I don't even HAVE an entry for FFXI in my Add/Remove programs. Game runs hella good. Probably better than a normal install, somehow.

PlayOnline doesn't need a separate installer either..

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

In my case, I don't even HAVE an entry for FFXI in my Add/Remove programs.

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Yeah... that's not something a professional software house is going to emulate.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Whenever we release a new all-in-one collection we make sure to include as much of the recent updates as possible. As for installing all the expansions at once, unfortunately because of the way that the data is installed, it's not possible to do at this time.

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There's places like Amazon, Gamespot, (heck, Steam duh!) that allow you to re-DL game files so you can get games back onto new computers/replacement systems as many times as you need to.

It'd be an excellent, and I mean -excellent- idea to ship them file updates as things go along. That way, new players get the latest updated files and old players have an option to DL from the point of purchase rather than overloading the S-E servers. Many games do this if there's bug fixes or the like for conventional non-MMO gaming, and it'd likely save the company pain and strain AND improve patch-day service as well.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I don't know, I can just copy my entire FFXI folder somewhere, delete the game, copy the files back, and re-create the registry keys and it will work just fine. I don't see why you can't have just one installer that goes through all of the expansion's data in sequence without having to do anything in between each one. All you'd have to do is set up the installer script to install the base game, then install the data for one expansion, then the next, etc. Then the added bonus of this is the game only shows up once in add/remove programs.

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Yeah that's just a strange statement by SE. Even without manually changing registry settings, many players are able to just copy/paste an old installation directory over a vanilla FF11 installation (no expansions at all), then run a file check in POL Viewer and have that work perfectly. It seems like a pretty simple thing to do. I haven't actually used my expansion discs to reinstall FF11 in... at least 5 years. I just copy over the old files from my previous installation each time.

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Originally Posted by wildsprite

tell me why it is people think GiB is more accurate than GB? it isnt, the whole GiB thing is BS, its not even technical, it was added by someone who wanted to sound smarter, the correct technical terms are KB(KiloByte)/kb(kilobit) MB(MegaByte)/mb(megabit) GB(GigaByte)/gb(gigabit) TB(TeraByte)/tb(terabit) these new terms, they just add a letter, which is a waste of space, honestly adapting these new terms makes no sense at all
the technical term for GigaByte is NOT GiB it is GB

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That is incorrect (but at the same time correct). You're most likely confused because Windows isn't being accurate with its units either. The correct term for 1000 MB is 1GB. However, the correct term for 1024 MB is 1 GiB. Of course, using GiB also implies that your 1024 MB are also MiB.

When a HDD manufacturer makes and sells a HDD, they report the size in GB. 200 GB is 200 000 000 000 bytes (they do this because they then can advertise their stuff using bigger numbers, and bigger numbers sell better). However, windows (and almost every other operating system) reports the size in GiB (even though Windows incorrectly calls this GB).

If you install this 200 GB HDD, windows will tell you it is 186(.2645) GB. However, Windows is lying to you. The HDD is not 186.2645 GB, because that would be ~186 564 500 000 bytes and the HDD is definitely 200 000 000 000 bytes. The HDD is however 186 GiB, because 186 GiB is 200 000 000 000 bytes.

Operating systems operate with 1024 bytes per kB, 1024 kB per MB, and so on. The SI prefix "kilo" does however not mean 1024, it means 1000. Therefore, because the term "kilo" already signifies a different value, you can't re-use it to signify a different value, hence the term "kibi" (kilo-binary) came into being. This unit is abbreviated as "ki". The same applies for mega-binary and giga-binary.

Kilo means 1000, Kibi means 1024. Kilo cannot both mean 1000 and 1024. This only opens for a lot more misunderstandings, as can be clearly seen in Windows, where they mean both, and you constantly need to use context to figure out how large a number is. With the "i" units, you always know how large values are without needing to spend time on determining the context.

-edit- Fixed typos.

That being said, I don't always follow this myself, for example if I talk to less computer literate people, who's got enough to think about anyway, or in oral communication where the context is obvious. Also, old habits die hard.

to print discs might be cheaper than paying for bits of download, but how much does it cost in shipping the discs all over the world that uses them? or whatever other things they have to pay for to get them into the hands of the consumers?

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Which brings up an interesting question: do you know if one can mix and match JP and NA discs on the same PS2/3 without having to muck about with hacks and/or other such third-party tools? :D Or are you just playing with straight JP hardware and software?

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First, sorry for the late reply.

DNAS is there to prevent illegal copying and tampering. So no you can't do that with the PS2. You would need to hack the game a lot and it's boot/loader program is heavily encrypted using SONY voodoo stuff. Installing Adoulin from JP discs on a US PS2 or PS3 simply won't happen. You need to authenticate with the DNAS server every time you start FFXI.

what it costs to ship the PC version should be irrelevant since they will be shipping xb360 copies of both the collection and the expansion anyway,

I think at the very least bit they should make special ordering physical copies of the collection for Windows for those that want them

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Originally Posted by wildsprite

what it costs to ship the PC version should be irrelevant since they will be shipping xb360 copies of both the collection and the expansion anyway

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Not in all markets; Japan won't get a "Collection" disc for either the PlayStation 2 or the Xbox 360 (but apparently will get a "Collection" DVD for PC, for a higher price).

Different regions are getting different things differently, probably thanks to economic calculations that involve an Ouija board.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Not in all markets; Japan won't get a "Collection" disc for either the PlayStation 2 or the Xbox 360 (but apparently will get a "Collection" DVD for PC, for a higher price).

Different regions are getting different things differently, probably thanks to economic calculations that involve an Ouija board.

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a Ouija board eh? I thought they were rolling 6 sided die for that :P

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Originally Posted by wildsprite

a Ouija board eh? I thought they were rolling 6 sided die for that :P

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No no, dice are only involved in "BALANCE!!1!!" decisions, with d6 for /ja and d20 for /ma. Anything involving real money goes to the Ouija board, supplemented by a Magic 8 Ball if credit cards are involved.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

No no, dice are only involved in "BALANCE!!1!!" decisions, with d6 for /ja and d20 for /ma. Anything involving real money goes to the Ouija board, supplemented by a Magic 8 Ball if credit cards are involved.

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oh so that's what it is ~snickers~ now I'm picturing a bunch of people in a room with what looks like D&D papers and die figuring out the balance of things

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Originally Posted by wildsprite

now I'm picturing a bunch of people in a room with what looks like D&D papers and die figuring out the balance of things

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Oh, they wish it was D&D record sheets. No, that room is papered over with spreadsheets and PowerPoints; a witches' coven the likes of which not even Jack T. Chick could imagine.

They do still wear robes, carry staves, and chant in faux Latin, though.

EDIT:

Little-known fact: "One-Winged Angel" is actually just a recording of a meeting of S-E execs.

Y'all are wearing my old brain out. Such high intellect in this game. I get lost in all this long winded discussion. What I am wondering and my first reaction is why is this expansion so expensive? I find it a bit much for an expansion. Isn't anyone else bothered by the price?

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Originally Posted by Powder

What I am wondering and my first reaction is why is this expansion so expensive?

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Because it's new. Ultimate Collection Abyssea Edition is only $10 simply because it's several years old now. All the prior expansions were about $30 each when they were first released, and dropped in price as time went on.

If you're bothered by the $30 price tag, wait a year and check the price again.

As for me, I take the $30 price as a sign that there's $30 worth of stuff in there, which is a good thing at this point.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Because it's new. Ultimate Collection Abyssea Edition is only $10 simply because it's several years old now. All the prior expansions were about $30 each when they were first released, and dropped in price as time went on.

If you're bothered by the $30 price tag, wait a year and check the price again.

As for me, I take the $30 price as a sign that there's $30 worth of stuff in there, which is a good thing at this point.

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Abyssea from the beginning was never $30.00 it was a typical expansion price of $9.99. I came right after Whitegate expansion so I don't know what they charged when it came out. I was just shocked when I went to the page and got to the bottom and saw that price.

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Originally Posted by Powder

Abyssea from the beginning was never $30.00 it was a typical expansion price of $9.99.

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First off, the Abyssea stuff was "add-ons," not "expansion packs." A Crystalline Prophecy, A Moogle Kupo d'Etat, A Shantotto Ascension, Visions of Abyssea, Scars of Abyssea and Heroes of Abysssea are the six current add-ons, $10 each and deliverable through PlayOnline itself.

Rise of the Zilart, Chains of Promathia, Treasures of Aht Urhgan and Wings of the Goddess are the four current expansion packs, deliverable outside of PlayOnline (i.e. on a DVD or through an online store), and were generally $30 each at launch.

Secondly, that $10/each price tag means that the three Abyssea add-ons together were originally $30 total. In fact, it's still $30 total if you buy them separately instead of buying the Ultimate Collection Abyssea Edition.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

First off, the Abyssea stuff was "add-ons," not "expansion packs." A Crystalline Prophecy, A Moogle Kupo d'Etat, A Shantotto Ascension, Visions of Abyssea, Scars of Abyssea and Heroes of Abysssea are the six current add-ons, $10 each and deliverable through PlayOnline itself.

Rise of the Zilart, Chains of Promathia, Treasures of Aht Urhgan and Wings of the Goddess are the four current expansion packs, deliverable outside of PlayOnline (i.e. on a DVD or through an online store), and were generally $30 each at launch.

Secondly, that $10/each price tag means that the three Abyssea add-ons together were originally $30 total. In fact, it's still $30 total if you buy them separately instead of buying the Ultimate Collection Abyssea Edition.

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OK! Thank you for clarifying this for me! <3 I see now. I came "after" all the expansions so I haven't seen that $30 before! This explains it for me. You are a doll for taking the time to explain this. While I have you here can I borrow $30? lmao just kidding. I have to throw some humor in this zzzzzz technical discussion. Thank you again!

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Oh, they wish it was D&D record sheets. No, that room is papered over with spreadsheets and PowerPoints; a witches' coven the likes of which not even Jack T. Chick could imagine.

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So, RIFTS record sheets. Gotcha.

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They do still wear robes, carry staves, and chant in faux Latin, though.

EDIT:

Little-known fact: "One-Winged Angel" is actually just a recording of a meeting of S-E execs.

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Hmmm... what would that make "Dancing Mad"?

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Originally Posted by Volkai

Hmmm... what would that make "Dancing Mad"?

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The welcome & orientation video for new hires, still on VHS.