On Red Mage melee...

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Originally Posted by Aliekber

Well, I meant without the playerbase at large blowing a gasket over it. If the WoE changes they're supposedly implementing turn out to be any good, I'll likely build a Badelaire +2 as-is (I do have every job that can use it, after all), but I can guarantee you people will still complain if I use it on RDM (but would be fine with me standing there doing literally nothing).

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That's why you ignore the playerbase, and do what is most productive, regardless of complaints.

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Originally Posted by rog

That's why you ignore the playerbase, and do what is most productive, regardless of complaints.

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While at the same time doing nothing to change what people expect of us.

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Originally Posted by rog

That's why you ignore the playerbase, and do what is most productive, regardless of complaints.

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Fair enough.

I f you want to make the playerbase fine with it, you'd have to make rdm close to what the best non-2handed job in the game can do :(

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Originally Posted by Duelle

While at the same time doing nothing to change what people expect of us.

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I don't think that's really a problem. We certainly won't be invited to melee, so what's wrong with being expected to heal/haste/whatever in between swings?

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Originally Posted by Mirage

I f you want to make the playerbase fine with it, you'd have to make rdm close to what the best non-2handed job in the game can do :(

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Either that or give them some non-damage-related utility for being up front (think THF's TH3 enhancements). It's basically wishful thinking at this point, though.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

I f you want to make the playerbase fine with it, you'd have to make rdm close to what the best non-2handed job in the game can do :(

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Not really. At the simplest, most basic level it requires adjustments to composure, enspells and access to more weapon skills. None of that will have us wiping the floor with the other DDs.

Another thing to consider is that people are attached to the expectation for heals, refresh and haste because in part they're desperate for those. Desperation and the lack of healing classes in this game had a hand in our being shackled to the back row. That being said, I'm of the opinion the community needs to be weaned off cure/refresh/haste to allow us to start taking up more roles should be choose to. Again, we as players are not enough to bring about such a change, hence why I call on the developers to do something about it.

We're also heavily disadvantaged in terms of gear because while people are capping haste and accuracy with a couple of pieces and thus are able to focus more on attack, double/triple attack and other goodies, we still have to scrape everything we can together just to reach haste cap. We're limited on what we can use to boost accuracy, and that doesn't cover some of the other stats melee value that they have a much easier time getting. It'd be one thing if we were on stuff like Twilight Belt, Epona's Ring, the pink light DD set and so on, but we are not on any of those. Our only sword outside of magians is a sword that drops from a zone boss everyone hates doing. Our "best" gear set is now several echelons below what everyone else can get.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Not really. At the simplest, most basic level it requires adjustments to composure, enspells and access to more weapon skills. None of that will have us wiping the floor with the other DDs.

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yeah, i doubt that. People don't change their minds of the nonsense they've believed for years easily.

to be more specific, I think RDM could probably get a melee boost, but that unless they're close to a "real" melee, the rdm is still considered a wasted party spot because a melee could have taken their place and you'd get a party that gets more exp/hour. I'm also saying that even if this is just a very slight decrease in exp/h, the player base is simply not going to be cool with it.

and if they do get a melee boost that will let them melee and backup-heal or whatever other backup duties they could do, while still lettign the party get the same exp/hour as if he was on heal/support duty only, we're going to get a lot of mad melees who want their jobs to be able to solo lv95 NMs.

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Originally Posted by rog

yeah, i doubt that. People don't change their minds of the nonsense they've believed for years easily.

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yeah I have high doubts the people who have decided RDM shouldnt melee will ever change their minds,
people forget things like the en spells don't give mobs TP either, so I see less RDMs actually use them when they should, killing the mob faster while feeding it less TP is nice

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Originally Posted by Mirage

and if they do get a melee boost that will let them melee and backup-heal or whatever other backup duties they could do, while still lettign the party get the same exp/hour as if he was on heal/support duty only, we're going to get a lot of mad melees who want their jobs to be able to solo lv95 NMs.

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I'd feel no pity for anyone who feels that way. I have two other melee jobs at high level, and while the change in play is notable between, say, my DRK and my RDM, I also acknowledge there's a difference in how the classes are designed.

Something I was kicking around that no one seemed to like was the idea of splitting what a RDM could do in the front and in the back. Say, heal and buff while in the back, melee and enfeeble while in the front. I've never been in favor of just having melee mixed with heals/refresh/haste because that creates redundancy while at the same time causing us to lose potential melee time due to casting cycles. It's certainly doable, but not fun and casting-intensive.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Something I was kicking around that no one seemed to like was the idea of splitting what a RDM could do in the front and in the back. Say, heal and buff while in the back, melee and enfeeble while in the front. I've never been in favor of just having melee mixed with heals/refresh/haste because that creates redundancy while at the same time causing us to lose potential melee time due to casting cycles. It's certainly doable, but not fun and casting-intensive.

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I like this idea

Ehhhh. I dunno. Maybe. I'd need more details to really say.

i still think better enspells would really fix a ton of problems. if a meleeing rdm could make the same amount of damage per hit as other DDs, but at the same time give less TP to the mob, enfeeble it, make use of weather/day bonuses and weaknesses, all at the same time... that's a DD i'd want to invite!

and btw people do change their minds. aby has changed the value and use of lots of jobs in the game (MNK, THF, NIN as main). we could probably change this if we got the tools.

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Originally Posted by Pyrsos

and btw people do change their minds. aby has changed the value and use of lots of jobs in the game (MNK, THF, NIN as main). we could probably change this if we got the tools.

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It's not the same. Those jobs were never considered useless, or to hurt more than they help.

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Originally Posted by rog

Ehhhh. I dunno. Maybe. I'd need more details to really say.

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Admitedly, the idea never really fleshed out due to lack of discussion.

A bare bones way to look at it is that melee RDM would have an easier time enfeebling a mob than a back row RDM (maybe through increased accuracy, shorter cast times, shorter recasts, longer durations pre-saboteur). Conversely, a back row RDM would have an easier time supporting a party than a front row RDM. That could create enough room to start developing both roles in a way that both are beneficial to a group in their own way (and allowing some of those coveted adjustments to our melee side to start coming our way), while at the same time not stopping either role from being able to cast the opposing spell (a melee RDM could still cast single target buffs like we currently do, while a back row RDM would still be able to enfeeble, just without the longer durations, shorter cast and recast and increased accuracy, for example). Sadly, due to lack of fleshing out, I never did figure out how nukes would come into play.

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a melee RDM could still cast single target buffs like we currently do, while a back row RDM would still be able to enfeeble, just without the longer durations, shorter cast and recast and increased accuracy, for example

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Sounds decent enough to me.

I can't even begin to imagine SE agreeing though. Stances MUST come with a downside.

The issue with rdm melee is simple, the jobs frontline and backline skills are unbalanced.

- We lack High damage Weapon Skills more so on the sword side, the weapon which we have more access to.

- We lack the Light DD gear which all other non-2handed jobs are accustom to.

- We lack something to make our job unique on the frontlines, to make it more wanted, and increase damage output.

First off, if blu can have access to both Melee and Mage gear, why can't rdm? Our Melee gear choices are low I think and our skill will be more reflected in our gear then anything else, While a melee role is possible I believe that the playerbase isnt seeing it due to lack of gear/Abilities/Traits that "melee" jobs get. But yet, we get all sorts of Mage Abilities, Traits and Gear. We are suspoed to be a "Jack of ALL trades" not a jack of one trade, its upsetting that blu outshines rdm in the aspect of what a jack of all trades should be. Blu and rdm should play Similar Roles, but preform it in different ways.

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Originally Posted by Trangnai

Blu and rdm should play Similar Roles, but preform it in different ways.

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I totally agree, its almost like RDM is SE's redheaded stepchild that they hate

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Originally Posted by Trangnai

- We lack High damage Weapon Skills more so on the sword side, the weapon which we have more access to.

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Minor thing here; Chant du Cygne is very powerful even on RDM but obviously that's not something most people will have.

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

Minor thing here; Chant du Cygne is very powerful even on RDM but obviously that's not something most people will have.

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Yes, but a job that should be able to melee shouldn't need an Empyrean Weapon to be allowed to consider doing it. post 75 and even before that, we have more swords available then daggers. We should have the skills to utilize those weapons natively, and not require a very time consuming weapon to be completed to do so, this is anything but a minor issue as lack of these things have been an issue with rdm for years. It's been mentioned several times that CDC should be a boost to a jobs ability, not what makes it.

I agree with a lot of what is being said about making RDM more balance, and distinctive at the same time. I also question the thought of how SE tags RDM as a fencer/duelist (a sword specialist), yet it is so limited in sword weapon skills. I also question the sword cap with it's fencer label. I think composure should mod weapon skill ratings instead of accuracy. Maybe it also should allow the use all WS's you could only access by WAR, PLD, BLU, DRK sub as well. To revamp and melee with en-spells, maybe add a job ability or trait that allows them to have another added effect such as poison, stun, slow, silence, paralyze, & addle (each associated to it's rightful element). Can have the effects increase in potency with subsequential hits, and have them also boost spells that landed of the same name. Just a couple ideas, but I think they are interesting concepts worth exploring.

First off before I start let me state that Rdm melee is the best it has ever been maybe with the exception of lvl 30; Certainly there are other jobs that are in need of melee buff more then Rdm that doesn't mean we should ignore other jobs. Keep in mind as well that CDC solves a lot of these issues I'm about to bring up but with that being said here is the Ironies of Red Mage Melee.

1) Our gear is much harder to get and weaker then jobs that have no business outmeleeing a Rdm, namely Brd and Whm.

Before abyssea the only thing holding back Whm was their lack of accuracy. Now with Razed Ruin though any job that wants to melee more or less now does not have to worry about accuracy any more; With their accuracy issues gone now with Hexa Strike and Blessed gear Whms actually out DD Rdm without CDC by a decent margin.

Brd actually has a lot of the same TP gear Rdm has with the exception of kitty pants (why brd is on these...). It's their WS sets that are better then ours and considering we more or less use the same WSs...yeah.... THe fact that they can use Hetacomb (why they ever got that...) makes their WSs hit quite a bit harder. Not to mention Fencer which is already a slap to the rapier masters. Now before abyssea this was solved because whatever difference a brd would beat us in damage we would more then make back with our enspells. Which brings up another point...

2) Our Weaponskill and Weapon seletion, for swords we aren't that bad in our weapon selection, the only problem is unless you have CDC or are using sanguine there isn't any reason that you should be using a sword over a dagger in the main hand because our sword WS are terrible. Even if Death Blossom was a crit WS Eviceration has nearly double the hits and fTP. Well just use a dagger then, the only problem is that while we have excellent dagger WSs we haven't received a new decent dagger since the Blau Dolch besides the Twilight Knife. It's doesn't make sense, we have good swords but bad sword WS, but we have good dagger WSs but no good daggers. No other job has this problem, Whm had good clubs and hexa strike, bard has good daggers and can still use their WSs. Yeah, the twilight knife is nice but that also brings up another issue...

3)Enspells and Additional effects hate each other. The twilight knife's additional effect overwrites our enspells and while that might be a good thing considering that the twilight knife does have a beastly additional effect it doesn't change the fact that we have to "lose" something to get it while no other job is in that situation (like Brd). In addition the additional effects that I personally would want to overwrite our enspells, the TotM swords because they have potent debuffs and are infrequent enough that losing our enspells for one swing would be well worth it, in fact can't activate with our enspells on yet they CAN overwrite sanbas...(At least it was this way last I checked, they could of ninjaed it in at some point, I know the lvl 90 swords can block certain status effects that the lvl 80s could not). It just doesn't make sense that the supposed master of enfeebling has to sacrifice the most to use some of the best enfeebling based weapons (that and when dual wielding having the actication rate be the same as when single wielding would be nice too). Speaking of enspells

4) Our enspells, which besides composure, are the only thing Rdms have going for them in melee have scaled terribly in the face of atma, new gear, and higher damage weapons. The rate at which our enhancing skill increases our enspells just can't keep up compared to how fast everything else is rising. I remember a recent Rdm parse that had his enspells at 7% of his damage. I've seen wyverns that do more then that and those are pretty pathetic compared to Drgs now days. Either we need a new tier of enspells or they need to be able to scale up with our damage in some way so atma doesn't leave our enspells in the dust. I don't need to mention the problem with T2 enspells that have already been mentioned. It seems that the biggest complaints arise from things that don't scale up in abyssea compared to everything else like our healing.

5) Which brings up another point, since we are more or less using lvl 75 mage armor when meleeing our defense is way lower then it should be. I understand if it's lower to some extent, but it shouldn't feel like if the monster uses a physical AoE that I'm taking like double damage compared to everyone else because the monster has capped pDIF against me, and this is only going to get worse on the way to 99 (not to mention the odd fact that Warlock actually has like the 3rd highest defense out of all the AF1 sets while Estoquers has less defense then some of my 75 gear >.>)

6) Back on the topic of armor, the new synergy system sounds nice as long as it isn't too restrictive because now we can take some of our rare/ex pieces and add augments to them. Only problem is that some of our most important pieces already contain augments like our legs. You have 2 leg options, Nashira which aren't terrible and the ASA legs. Yeah...I'm predicting that we can't add augments to the ASA legs can we. On the other hand Brds with their Kitty pants will be enjoying brand new augments on an already superior piece of gear. Not to mention I only see this working with certain pieces which I'd be surprised if Rdm can use any of them (well ones that were melee orientated in the first place). If it's limited to certain pieces I can see Nashira legs, Goliard body, and the Morgan's set. Brd will probably be able to augment their Kitties and their Hetacomb. Yeah, those are upgrades, but it's another case that while we gain a small buff everyone else gains a much larger one.

I guess the biggest point I'm trying to conclude is that no other job has to jump through as many hoops as Rdm just to reach a basic level of performance.
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Fixing all this wouldn't even be that hard. It doesn't require reinventing the wheel, just using what you have already given us.

1) When life gives you ton of MAB gear use elemental WSs. Really a lot of our pre-CDC sword WS problems would be solved if you gave us a strong native elemental WS. Like mentioned before it would be even more interesting if you let the element of the WS match our current enspell. We can already do some pretty decent numbers with Sanguine and Aeolian Edge (with a martial knife), just create a slightly stronger version of one of those and let all the gear you've already created do the rest.

2) Create a basic mage "perle" set that Rdm, Whm, Brd, Sch, Smn, and Blm can use. Now by "perle" I don't mean literally perle, but create a basic hybrid set like mentioned before that is easy enough to get and can adequately allow the user to melee. One of the biggest barriers from melee acceptance is simply all those gimps out there meleeing in their convert set. At least this way they have no excuse. There's no need really for a WS set if you create that elemental WS for Rdm. Most jobs can already gear fairly easily for their primary WS.

3) Create a new tier of enspells that don't exactly mimic the concept of Enlight and Endark. Rdms in general swing WAY too fast for that concept to work. It would only increase our casting burden more since for all intents and purposes that spell would pretty much ignore composure and our increases enhancing magic duration. The if you do that I'd just touch the enhancing skill issue with the T2s and maybe the gradually increasing damage part and those would be pretty good. I kinda like the fact that they only activate on the main hand. If anything instead of adding those hits to your additional hits just add even more to the initial swing. I like having the option of using a Sanba with an enspell up.

4) Continue to lighten our casting load. Estoquier's was a good idea, only problem is expecting someone to have a full set just to melee is kind of ridiculous. Now this issue might be solved as the set becomes easier to get, but there should be other ways that we can cast and melee without one or the other affecting the other one so much. I mean what's the point of Rdms versatility if we can't do everything simultaneously (imo this should be the difference between Blu and Rdm, Blus should be great at a lot of stuff but have to pick one or two things, Rdm should be good at everything and be able to use everything. Not saying that each job can't have their niche for specialization obviously).

5) Create new ways of enfeebling, whether it's just new enfeebles like confuse (you know you want too and it wouldn't be that hard. Just have the monster have a low chance to be countered by whoever he attacks which should simulate the effect), or making our new tier of enspells apply an additional effect.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

1) When life gives you ton of MAB gear use elemental WSs. Really a lot of our pre-CDC sword WS problems would be solved if you gave us a strong native elemental WS. Like mentioned before it would be even more interesting if you let the element of the WS match our current enspell. We can already do some pretty decent numbers with Sanguine and Aeolian Edge (with a martial knife), just create a slightly stronger version of one of those and let all the gear you've already created do the rest.

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I can't really see this happening unless the weapon skill in question is added to our skill gain progression. It'd need to show up at around the time other melee get their bread and butter WS to be worthwhile, if not earlier. Could use that as a placeholder WS until Sanguine (which would have to be made native to RDM), which itself would cover for CDC.

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2) Create a basic mage "perle" set that Rdm, Whm, Brd, Sch, Smn, and Blm can use. Now by "perle" I don't mean literally perle, but create a basic hybrid set like mentioned before that is easy enough to get and can adequately allow the user to melee. One of the biggest barriers from melee acceptance is simply all those gimps out there meleeing in their convert set. At least this way they have no excuse. There's no need really for a WS set if you create that elemental WS for Rdm. Most jobs can already gear fairly easily for their primary WS.

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I don't agree with hybrid gear for one reason and one reason alone: item budgets. An actually workable hybrid set has a chance of being stupidly over-budget, and the alternative to that is having a bunch of gear with a lot of stats spread out.

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4) Continue to lighten our casting load. Estoquier's was a good idea, only problem is expecting someone to have a full set just to melee is kind of ridiculous. Now this issue might be solved as the set becomes easier to get, but there should be other ways that we can cast and melee without one or the other affecting the other one so much. I mean what's the point of Rdms versatility if we can't do everything simultaneously (imo this should be the difference between Blu and Rdm, Blus should be great at a lot of stuff but have to pick one or two things, Rdm should be good at everything and be able to use everything. Not saying that each job can't have their niche for specialization obviously).

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Estoqueur's set did not really get rid of cycling, which is what needs to dissapear to improve front-line quality of life. The only two things I can think of is some way to AoE Haste and Refresh and overall longer durations when playing RDM as the main job. 10-minute AoE buffs would be a god send for the melee enthusiasts.

The alternative would be to change things in a way that haste and refresh are removed from the equation when front-lining and make up for that elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I don't agree with hybrid gear for one reason and one reason alone: item budgets. An actually workable hybrid set has a chance of being stupidly over-budget, and the alternative to that is having a bunch of gear with a lot of stats spread out.

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All depends where you get it.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

All depends where you get it.

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Which often lends itself to being way out of reach or something that doesn't reward other people for helping you get it. Like the Chimeric fleuret.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Which often lends itself to being way out of reach or something that doesn't reward other people for helping you get it. Like the Chimeric fleuret.

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Or it could be just as easy to get as Perle. Once again, it's situational with how you get it.

Well all that's being said is well and good, let us not forget that Abyssea will soon be over, the level cap is planned to be raised to level 99 and content for that will come out eventually. Which means we may not always have atma so you can't always count on those buffs.

I do have one thought that would get rid of the elemental staff question... what if we had some job traits that gave us massive magic accuracy bonuses with sword or daggers equipped but didn't work with staves equipped would help solve this problem. This would allow us to work more with swords and get rid of the thought people have that a RDM without elemental staves or magian staves are useless. (again I talk for when we no longer have abyssea buffs.)

Another thought is raising our sword skills to an A to rival Blue mage and give us access to all the same weapon skills. We can NOT be expected to have relic, mythic or even Almace to have a decent selection of WS to chose from in order to melee properly, nor should we have to sub WAR BLU PLD or DRK to have access to said WSs.

Dancer can heal quite well, support the party in their way AND do respectable damage, so whats wrong with us being able to do the same in melee? That's the real question.

Perhaps even add enfeebling effects to our enspells... for example make Enaero lower VIT(by a good amount so its not ignored like Choke is)

There is no reason we should be looked at as nothing but healers, both inside and outside of abyssea. In that respect we have two other jobs that can fill the role just as well, WHM and SCH.

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Originally Posted by Xikeroth

Well all that's being said is well and good, let us not forget that Abyssea will soon be over

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Did your crystal ball tell you that?

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Originally Posted by rog

Did your crystal ball tell you that?

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No, but it is simple common sense.

What you really expect it to be the final event everyone will do? Look at other more successful MMOs they constantly add new content making older content obsolete. If SE wants people to keep playing FFXI they will have to add content beyond abyssea.

Its no "crystal ball" thing Its called common sense. If it was so many people are basically almost done with their gearsets they will lose the want to do it anymore and just stop playing.

Does SE want this? No they want our money.

Yeah, XI stagnating into more or less the same level 75 endgame for years was kind of an exception to the flow and evolution of MMOs. I don't quite agree with the belief that some have with Abyssea being an overpowered sandbox swan song of the game, but I will never sit here and think of the future with it being the standard.

This is why once we're looking elsewhere and things like MP limitations are a concern again, RDM's actual balancing factor (MP) will be there to determine how much it can do within a certain span of time. Ideally, the melee role would tie up that MP for self-buffs, an emergency cure, enfeebles, and maybe the odd MB. If you try to main heal and nuke aggressively at the same time, you'll pretty much empty your gas tank quick.

Nonetheless, RDM melee shouldn't begin with CDC after 85+ levels and hours of running trials. And until WoE is more hospitable for individual progress, demanding it just to even enter baseline acceptability isn't good. We don't see people refusing to invite WARs who don't have Ukko's, but I'm sure they'd be pitching a fit if that was indeed the case.

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Originally Posted by Xikeroth

What you really expect it to be the final event everyone will do? Look at other more successful MMOs they constantly add new content making older content obsolete. If SE wants people to keep playing FFXI they will have to add content beyond abyssea.

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I don't know, since SE hasn't said a word about it.

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Originally Posted by rog

I don't know, since SE hasn't said a word about it.

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Its very simple, SE knows that staying at level 75 for so long was a mistake whereas the other MMOs constantly raise the level cap and add new content. SE has been known to keep its players guessing. They wont tell us for maybe 2-3 months at most about the new content we'll get.

I don't expect any major new endgame content to be released this update (or at least anything as expansive as abyssea).

Keep in mind that when visions of abyssea was released I would venture that the other 2 abyssea expansions were close to completion as well (similar to how all 3 add-on expansion were probably created around the same time, hence when the first one was complained about the other 2 weren't fixed in response because...they were already most likely created and done) all that was really needed were specific tweaks to get them ready for launch such as the level of monsters, but the basic mechanics were already determined ahead of time (such as Bastion and Dominion). What they didn't know was how successful it would be. So here we are at the end of their abyssea queue and they probably didn't expect the way things turned out with XIV failing and people falling in love again with XI so they probably didn't work a lot on new content up until now. They are probably working hard on some new content, but content takes some time to create. In the mean time though I expect them to revamp older content to stall like they are doing with dynamis since such adjustments are easily done.

but this is getting off topic a little so...

I know people have suggested in the past that adding utility to Rdm melee would help encourage people to let them melee more in parties. Enspell IIs were an attempt at this although I'm not sure when they will realize that elemental resistances really don't do that much unless they are in large numbers since people either gear to near perfect accuracy or don't even bother due to their stupid high resistances. What type of things could they add to Rdm melee to give it extra utility? I personally want to see enspells that lower monster statuses like maybe enblizzard III could also lower the monsters evasion since those statuses are really not used that often (especially the magic related ones).

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Originally Posted by Supersun

I know people have suggested in the past that adding utility to Rdm melee would help encourage people to let them melee more in parties. Enspell IIs were an attempt at this although I'm not sure when they will realize that elemental resistances really don't do that much unless they are in large numbers since people either gear to near perfect accuracy or don't even bother due to their stupid high resistances. What type of things could they add to Rdm melee to give it extra utility? I personally want to see enspells that lower monster statuses like maybe enblizzard III could also lower the monsters evasion since those statuses are really not used that often (especially the magic related ones).

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I like the idea, but it would have to be something implemented to take effect when an enspell is active, not tied to specific spells. Otherwise things get horribly skewed towards one spell (Enblizzard, in this case, given all the ice merits we're required to take as is). My take on that would be:

Job Trait - Appel (RDM lv55): Occassionally reduces the evasion of the enemy while under the effect of a weapon enhancement spell. Requires Composure.

Proc rate would be about 80 or 90% of what a THF sees at max Trasure Hunter potential. The RDM could even get a message similar to what THF gets saying "The enemy's evasion has decreased by X".

I think you sorta missed the point. Each of the new enspells would have their own separate debuff.

Enfire - Lowers Magic Attack Bonus
Enaero - Lowers Defense
Enthunder - Lowers Magic Defense Bonus
Enwater - Lowers Attack
Enblizzard - Lowers Evasion
Enstone - Lowers Accuracy

The only issue is that some of those debuffs are better then others.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

I think you sorta missed the point. Each of the new enspells would have their own separate debuff.

Enfire - Lowers Magic Attack Bonus
Enaero - Lowers Defense
Enthunder - Lowers Magic Defense Bonus
Enwater - Lowers Attack
Enblizzard - Lowers Evasion
Enstone - Lowers Accuracy

The only issue is that some of those debuffs are better then others.

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I made a similar suggestion in another thread yesterday. A JA that enhances the power of Enspells and adds additional enfeebling or elemental DoT effcts such as Enblizzard I/II = Paralyze or Frost that increases with each successful hit to a degree like the resistance down effects from Tier II enspells.

For added effect SE can make it where the success of landing the additional effect can be directly effected by the players Enfeebling/Enhancing/Elemental skill, just to add a bit of balance to the mechanics.

I really think our potential to melee could be greatly increased, if first and foremost SE finds some creative ways to reduce the amount of spells we have to cast while still letting us use our main strengths.

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Quote Originally Posted by Supersun View Post
I think you sorta missed the point. Each of the new enspells would have their own separate debuff.

Enfire - Lowers Magic Attack Bonus
Enaero - Lowers Defense
Enthunder - Lowers Magic Defense Bonus
Enwater - Lowers Attack
Enblizzard - Lowers Evasion
Enstone - Lowers Accuracy

The only issue is that some of those debuffs are better then others.

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I like that idea but more then likely the element would have an effect that would be based off its opposing element for instance enwater would reduce attack or str and enthunder would reduce VIT or def and ect ect down the line... or even add a reduction to the resistance of the element your using / or opposite that way you can still throw a nuke in and do more unresisted damage then you would otherwise

While I'm not against enspells having additional effects, the problem with those listed is people will basically only pick one (Probably the DEF down), and using anything other than that one would make you a bad RDM.

And old idea I had ages ago involved giving RDM a couple stances whose effectiveness was then tied into enspell use. I had to dig a little on Alla to find it, but here it is. Some of the wordings from the pre-Abyssea/cap increase mindset, so spare me corrections relative to the current game.

Quote:

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First, let's come up with two stances. The first we'll call "Magic Fencer" and we'll loosely call this the Enhancing side. The second we'll call "Runic Knight" and let it emphasize offensive casting. Now, while either of these are active, Enspell damage inflicted will build toward a pool, a bit of a mix between Sublimation and DNC steps. For every 30 Enspell damage inflicted, you will gain 1 level in this pool, up to 3, that you can then apply to a spell via another set of abilities. We'll simply call them "Feedback I, II, and III" for sake of demonstration.

Code:

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Magic Fencer effects with Feedback:

 
Feedback    I    II  III
Duration: +30%  +65% +100%
Phalanx:    +2    +4    +6
Haste:    +3%  +4%  +5%
Stoneskin: +15  +30  +45
Regen:      +3    +4    +5
Refresh:    +1    +2    +3
Blink:      +1    +2    +3
Aquaveil:  +5%  +10%  +15%
Barspell:  +10  +20  +30
Spikes:    +1    +2    +3



Runic Knight effects with Feedback:

 
Feedback    I    II  III
Duration: +30%  +65% +100%
MACC:      +5  +10  +15
MATK:      +5  +10  +15
CMP:      +10  +20  +30
Slow:      +3%  +4%  +5%
Paralyze:  +1    +2    +3
Blind:    +5%  +10%  +15%
Poison:    +2    +4    +6
Bio ATK:  +3%  +4%  +5%
Dia DEF:  +3%  +4%  +5%

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Prior to using any of these boosts, you'd have to pop the appropriate tier of Feedback before casting. It would only work for that spell and then deduct the appropriate amount from your Feedback pool. Feedback I would be first gained at 55, II at 65, III at 75.

For those interested in playing RDM as a tank or a more rounded party buffer (Especially with Accession), they'll probably flock to Magic Fencer. I'm on the fence with this stacking with Composure to allow like 12 minute Hastes and such on the RDM, but the main goal is to reduce your cast load on other people and therefore giving you more time to swing. These also technically eliminate the need for Haste II and Refresh II as spells, or at least allow the former to go to WHMs. Spikes enhancements are a bit more general, but figure Blaze to do more damage while Para and Stun proc more on the others.

Runic Knight should obviously portray itself as the offensive aspect. All enfeeble durations would be upped, making a RDM/BLM ES+Slow II comparable to a BRD's ES/Troub Elegy in duration. Paralyze would gain a minimum number of procs, Blind reduces ACC more, Poison gets more DoT, Bio/Dia's respective status downs also get a boost. The MATK is there if you want to partake in MBs. The presence of Conserve MP is to promote uptime since the costs of T2 debuffs and T3 nukes is rather high.

At present, a RDM with Enhancing Sword, Fencer's Ring latent active, Lycopodium Earring, Hollow Earring, and 300+ Enhancing Skill would get around +33 per strike on T1s if the mob isn't resistant or has Shell/MDB. Technically, a lot of RDMs would probably just use Joyeuse (and off-hand Justice) with Fencer's and settle for +25. This should allow time between recasts to build your pool up for another Feedback if you're going to be using exclusively on one spell. To some degree, it'd also allow hopping between modes if, say, starting a fight in Knight and switching to Fencer after landing your debuffs. Pools would also reset when switching, too.

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Conceptually, I know some of this has the pro-backline seething about how it has no benefit to them. I'll just point out that if you're hanging back, you're likely swapping your weapons to up potency, something that isn't possible if you're sticking to a sword or dagger for TP gain. Being at a distance also limits the AoEs you endure while also cutting your enmity gain to spells you cast. Meanwhile, the melee RDM is building up melee enmity on top of what spells they do use. Your advantage is the safety net, and as far as nukes go, more potency.

Otherwise, some of the numbers are conservative. I'd actually want to make Phalanx's buff better, for example, and maybe change the MATK boosts to a universal elemental Affinity like the magian staves. Not as high, of course, but if you could match the old elemental staves for HQ, peachy.

One big problem with that though is that our melee time could be drastically cut down from spamming Feedback so much. Maybe another solution is that the Feedback JAs are like on/off switches. If you have feedback III on for example it will automatically try and use 3 charges of feedback for any spell you cast and any spell you don't want to use feedback on because you want to save the charges you can turn feedback off.

It'll also allow a programming type method for how we want the game to handle feedback. If you have feedback II on it will always try to use 2 feedback charges if you have them or none at all. If you have lvl 3 on like mentioned before it will only try to use 3 charges or none at all. If you have lvl 2 AND 3 on it will try to use 3 charges and if you don't have 3 then it will try 2 charges and if you don't have that it won't use it at all.

That's just in example though, but making feedback a JA you have to activate for every spell would certainly eat our melee time