Can the Devs allow Dual Wielding Shields?

Was trying to just show a "Rush-like" Weapon skill that would spike some high Enmity on a monster.

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8...imationwea.gif

you know i think i remember seeing i think it was a sholin style similar to this, wore no armor past metal arm guards and some times large iron rings, tho some examples of there arm guards also had knuckledusters, extreme example would be what shredder from tmnt used. Anyhow the concept behind the style was the guards worked as shield and weapon apparently they were skilled enough to block arrows with them and could dominate someone with a mid range weapon like a spear, and in the rings case gave any full blow with the fist double impact.

also on a personal side i wanna say holy shit that taru has enough guns on him to sink the lintier British Nave..... keep up the good work

Possible stats for the "Tough to obtain" Battle shields:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7...ldstatsweb.jpg


http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/607...dstats2web.jpg


http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/245...dstats3web.jpg

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Originally Posted by Metaking

you know i think i remember seeing i think it was a sholin style similar to this, wore no armor past metal arm guards and some times large iron rings, tho some examples of there arm guards also had knuckledusters, extreme example would be what shredder from tmnt used. Anyhow the concept behind the style was the guards worked as shield and weapon apparently they were skilled enough to block arrows with them and could dominate someone with a mid range weapon like a spear, and in the rings case gave any full blow with the fist double impact.

also on a personal side i wanna say holy shit that taru has enough guns on him to sink the lintier British Nave..... keep up the good work

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Yep you're absolutely right. The bracelet type shown in "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" in that big fight scene at that tea house.

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/893/ironarm.jpg

Here's the ones you're talking about I believe.
http://spectrumculture.com/wp-conten...6/shaolin2.jpg

In any case, these are definitely along the lines of the concept, but I still haven't seen two round shields. I'm sure there's something out there... there's gotta be... right? (o.o)

And thanks for the feedback! Tarus should get some beefcake status if they're Damage Dealers lol.

Curious. What slot would these go in and how would they work? What I mean is, are they supposed to be like H2H, 1 item for both slots? 2Handed with grips or their own variation of grip type items? Single handed, and possibly able to be offhanded with other weapons? Just curious. As a single handed weapon, I have to admit, I would love these weapons for stats but they would be just a tad~ overpowered... Like with Tefnut+Darksteal Scale, FC+Refresh+30%Cure potency, I would die from amazement.

Off topic: I wish I could draw like you Kingfury.

hmmm the dmg to delay would have to be tweaked some seeing as most of those shields would be fighting emps for dmg to delay

sand-worm fangs and kings eyes are pritty spot on for what shields need to have on them anyhow stat wise maby int and mnd+15 the refresh would obviously have to be 1 per tic and not to nitpick but umm and not to nit pick but sandfang has a slight order of operations error on it ^.^ (str dex agi)

o and at demon i figure it works like this
Weapon + battle shield = just works like a normal shield
Battle shield + normal shield = works like any other 1 handed weapon + shield
Battle shield + battle shield = works like Dw'ed wepons

So Tefnut+this idea=Time to drop my Arka!

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Curious. What slot would these go in and how would they work? What I mean is, are they supposed to be like H2H, 1 item for both slots? 2Handed with grips or their own variation of grip type items? Single handed, and possibly able to be offhanded with other weapons? Just curious. As a single handed weapon, I have to admit, I would love these weapons for stats but they would be just a tad~ overpowered... Like with Tefnut+Darksteal Scale, FC+Refresh+30%Cure potency, I would die from amazement.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Metaking

hmmm the dmg to delay would have to be tweaked some seeing as most of those shields would be fighting emps for dmg to delay

sand-worm fangs and kings eyes are pritty spot on for what shields need to have on them anyhow stat wise maby int and mnd+15 the refresh would obviously have to be 1 per tic and not to nitpick but umm and not to nit pick but sandfang has a slight order of operations error on it ^.^ (str dex agi)

o and at demon i figure it works like this
Weapon + battle shield = just works like a normal shield
Battle shield + normal shield = works like any other 1 handed weapon + shield
Battle shield + battle shield = works like Dw'ed wepons

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Hey guys, thanks for the feedback /

Metaking was right on point with all but the 1st instance, the "Weapon + Battle shield" combo. These shields by all definition are an upgrade in functionality from our current shields and are actual melee weapons and shields at the same time. So if a player (lets say a PLD or RDM) wanted to still wield their sword to have their sword weapon skills available while equipping one of these battle shields, they would pop a battle shield into their sub slot and they would be dual-wielding two melee weapons. If you didn't have a sub job that offered Dual-wield, then the sub slot would give you that error message "Cannot equip another weapon without the dual-wield job trait" thingy. Although they have the added functionality of a shield, they would most likely be programmed as weapons, so without Dual-wield, a player would have to pop in a standard shield type.

So with the correction to Metakings breakdown, it'd look like this:

Weapon + battle shield = works like Dual-wielding weapons (except you can still block attacks with the battle shield) Dual-wield job trait needed.
Battle shield + normal shield = works like any other 1 handed weapon + shield (with access to battle shield weapon skills)
Battle shield + battle shield = works like Dw'ed wepons (with access to battle shield weapon skills) Dual-wield job trait needed.

P.s. I'll switch those stats around lol >.<

In regards to the "Over Awesomeness" that could be achieved by combining the high end Battle shield example from above (that shield would most likely be tough to get ^.^), that's actually the point. These battle shields would have to be really attractive stat wise to actually be viable contenders for hard core tanks to actually consider using them over their traditional options they've come to know and love. Whether using them in either the mainhand or offhand slot, if they didn't offer some pretty sweet weapon skills and/or powerful stats, the Dev team would be hard pressed to bait players into trying them in end game content. So yeah, it would be some crazy Awesome stats across the spectrum of benefits to really make these shields desirable to the masses.

While I understand the idea of giving them such good stats to make them more appealing... Maybe~ over doing it a bit. Honestly with those stats you out do alot of other single hand weapons easy. For instance...

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Originally Posted by kingfury

Possible stats for these Battle shields:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7...ldstatsweb.jpg

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This has the same STR/VIT as a Talekeeper, the Haste of Ephemeron, Counter, Double Attack, and can block, with a nice 35 DEF. In other words, this is amazing, and only level 95.

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http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/607...dstats2web.jpg

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This with Tefnut would beat out the lv99 Cure Potency Staff. It would hit 30% cure potency with them, not to mention the massive MND, Refresh, and Fast Cast.

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http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/245...dstats3web.jpg

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STR, high damage, Triple Attack, Def, all very high and powerful.

Now I'm not saying I don't like them, but perhaps your aiming kinda high on the stats. And also, your art is awesome!

Animations and drawings are absolutely amazing, man. And the idea totally makes sense, wish SE can hire you so we can have more fun stuff lol. Kudos. ^_^b

sounds like the exact same thing as hand-to-hand and guard imo. except with the possiblity of holding a shield too. there really should be some kind of h2h-friendly sub-slot item though.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

While I understand the idea of giving them such good stats to make them more appealing... Maybe~ over doing it a bit. Honestly with those stats you out do alot of other single hand weapons easy. For instance...This has the same STR/VIT as a Talekeeper, the Haste of Ephemeron, Counter, Double Attack, and can block, with a nice 35 DEF. In other words, this is amazing, and only level 95.
This with Tefnut would beat out the lv99 Cure Potency Staff. It would hit 30% cure potency with them, not to mention the massive MND, Refresh, and Fast Cast.
STR, high damage, Triple Attack, Def, all very high and powerful.

Now I'm not saying I don't like them, but perhaps your aiming kinda high on the stats. And also, your art is awesome!

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Again, you're absolutely right! But I'll try to explain it another way to validate my reasoning on the superb stats on these dream weapons. And just to make clear, these would be the cream of the crop versions of these battle shields, the kind you have to grind end game content for so there would be far more standard battle shields to go around before folks would simply pop up with one of these babies. I would imagine these being like the Empyrian equivalent of their respective weapon class.

Lets say the amazing happened tomorrow and a member of the Community staff popped in a post saying the Devs like this weapon concept and will start working on it for the new expansion(Yeah I know, pretty far fetch, but I digress...).

• They would be introducing a brand new combat skill that folks would have to start from scratch with and max out before enjoying the benefits thereof while participating in end game content.
• They would be asking players to seek out high level notorious monsters (or perhaps participate in other event-related content) to obtain the Awesome versions of this new weapon listed above.
• They would be hoping players would actually consider putting down their beloved Empyrian weapons that a huge percent of the player base have still not completed to lvl 99 to even attempt to consider using these weapons.
• And lastly, they would be (if done according to the suggested solutions these weapons might solve stated in the Original Post) asking players to alter the way they've been playing FFXI for the past 8+ years by picking up these new and untested weapons.

All that to say, again, you're absolutely right in saying these stats are over the top, but if you've worked to create any of the special weapons awarded from FFXI (Relic, Mythic, Empyrian, etc.), then these weapons would have to be exactly Awesome/Superb/Crazy sauce and nothing less for players to actually buy into the work that would be needed to take advantage of them. It would be a true original experience for FFXI to introduce a new weapon category and would most likely cause a "Gold Rush" effect involving tons of players trying to get the most out of these new options.

And thanks in regards to the art (^.^)/

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Originally Posted by Dohati

sounds like the exact same thing as hand-to-hand and guard imo. except with the possiblity of holding a shield too. there really should be some kind of h2h-friendly sub-slot item though.

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The countering and blocking would have similarities to H2H, true, but only in the since of defending the player from offensive attack. Unlike any other weapon choice we have currently available, these weapons would be designed primarily for Damage dealing and Tanking from the ground up (high enmity Weapon skills, Melee damage output, stats, etc.) and would offer a lot of versatility to a PLD for example. A PLD would be able to consider 4 different "Tanking" modes (not saying a PLD can't use a different weapon now, but just one designed specifically for tanking) of combat with the introduction of this weapon alone:

• Sword + Standard Shield
• Sword + Battle Shield (or vice versa)
• Battle Shield + Standard Shield (Aegis or Ochain)
• Battle Shield + Battle Shield

While H2H's weapon skills are powerful for a MNK to enjoy, everything from H2H's exclusiveness to the builds of it's weapon skills make it vastly different than the concept the original post is suggesting.

That said, I do agree H2H should get a sub slot though :)

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Off topic: I wish I could draw like you Kingfury.

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/Kneel (^.^) /

It's like playing the piano friend, the fundamentals can be taught, but the rest is passion and keeping an open mind :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Belmonts

Animations and drawings are absolutely amazing, man. And the idea totally makes sense, wish SE can hire you so we can have more fun stuff lol. Kudos. ^_^b

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Thank you much ^^/

Kingfury, knowing now that you are able to throw together weapon stat mockups, I'd like to see you hit some staple weapons of this type at more regular levels.

A couple combat shields you would see in the level 1-10 range; Level 20 or 25 craftable NQ combat shield and +1 version; A level 30 unique combat shield dropped by a soloable-but-challenging (at level 30) NM; a Lv.73 Perdu Combat Shield.

While the high-end examples you have already produced are impressive, I'm more interested in seeing what someone would use while working their way towards that.

If you intend this to be the specialist weapon of a new Job, please also show what the Lv.40 Artifact Weapon of the Combat Shield would be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yokai

Kingfury, knowing now that you are able to throw together weapon stat mockups, I'd like to see you hit some staple weapons of this type at more regular levels.

A couple combat shields you would see in the level 1-10 range; Level 20 or 25 craftable NQ combat shield and +1 version; A level 30 unique combat shield dropped by a soloable-but-challenging (at level 30) NM; a Lv.73 Perdu Combat Shield.

While the high-end examples you have already produced are impressive, I'm more interested in seeing what someone would use while working their way towards that.

If you intend this to be the specialist weapon of a new Job, please also show what the Lv.40 Artifact Weapon of the Combat Shield would be.

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I was working on just that lol

Here's some of the concept art around the concept of this battle style being derived from a lost civilization.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...lass-WEB-1.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...lass-WEB-2.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...toise_FFXI.jpg

I was thinking along the lines of the ancient warriors being inspired by the prehistoric Adamantoise, leading them to mimic the defensive prowess native to the impenetrable beast. They crafted their helmets to resemble the skull of the beast and designed a fighting style that uses two shields to create (what they considered) a "Surrounding Shield". The war paint was to strike fear into their enemies upon the battlefield. It's one of my 1st concepts, but I'm planning to add some select body jewelry here and there, and complete the lower half of the armor.

I'll hit the different types of shields as well.

After all is said and done, SE should definitely do this... Your doing so much to give them a running start on it :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yokai

Kingfury, knowing now that you are able to throw together weapon stat mockups, I'd like to see you hit some staple weapons of this type at more regular levels.

A couple combat shields you would see in the level 1-10 range; Level 20 or 25 craftable NQ combat shield and +1 version; A level 30 unique combat shield dropped by a soloable-but-challenging (at level 30) NM; a Lv.73 Perdu Combat Shield.

While the high-end examples you have already produced are impressive, I'm more interested in seeing what someone would use while working their way towards that.

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Here's some examples of a few standard, crafted and dropped battle shields:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...ats-5a-WEB.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...tats-5-WEB.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...tats-6-WEB.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...tats-4-WEB.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...tats-8-WEB.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...tats-7-WEB.jpg

I think I'm seeing a possible problem with dualwield shields in real life: any sufficiently hard blow would break your wrists :(

If the concept idea is to use armor as a weapon, wouldn't it make more sense to wear heavy armor to distribute the force of impact across a larger area? With two interlocking shields and spiked armor, you could go fully hedgehog and let the enemy tear itself to pieces.

What if, instead of bucklers, it would use a gauntlet with an oversized armguard doubling as a shield?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kingfury

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Thanks for the feedback and awesome idea!

Initially, I did want to pitch this concept as a new job class (since I do honestly believe it could be fleshed out to be a unique form of a combat style), but I figured that would be far more ambitious for the upcoming expansion than simply creating the weapon itself to be used by all the current jobs that would get the most out of it's play style. However, that doesn't mean the Devs couldn't create a history around the weapon itself upon implementation that speaks of a lost warrior class that used these unique weapons primarily in battle. Heck, I'd be ecstatic if a new type of beastmen in the expansion lands still prefer to use this possible "weapon of old".

Honestly though, aside from the cool factor of dual-wielding two "death spheres" in battle, if the Dev team did invest the work into bringing this weapon to life in FFXI, it would kind of behoove them to put their own wonderful style and flare all around it as only Final Fantasy developers can. If that would mean a new job class, then yeah, I would unlock this class in a heartbeat... though I would most likely (depending on the job abilities and traits) swap it in as a fun new sub for WAR since I'm a little obsessed with the variety of that job :)

Truly awesome concept you've suggested with the team built "defensive potential" of such a weapon. I would imagine the strategy being insane around pulling off something as cool as this mid-battle, but the outcome would totally justify the means lol. Perhaps a minimum of 2 players dual-wielding these weapons (so 4 shields) could perform a simplified Testudo that protects a small to medium sized area around themselves. Furthermore, 3-4 dual-wielding players (that's 6-8 shields) could then increase both the potency of the party defense and the protection circumference around themselves. I'd love see this in real time action for sure.

Actually, apparently it's not just SquareEnix that hasn't explored this concept, cause I can't seem to find any information anywhere about a fighting style composed of dual-wielding melee shields. Unless I'm just looking in the wrong places or typing in the wrong names into google, I'm not sure if there has ever been a fighting style composed of using two shields primarily as both weapon and defense (Yeah Rygar had one badass Discarmor at his disposal, but that's where the line ends lol). I would be amazed to find out that such a fighting style ever existed.

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I've looked into it and a lot of shields in past civilisations came with spikes, sharpened edges and often came with large blunt objects attached. The Hoplites for example, an ancient Greek civilization, often fought with sharp edges on their shields so it could function as both a defensive and offensive weapon. In addition, many medieval styles of combat used a single-handed sword and a small shield called a Buckler, this shield was meant to function as a 'punching shield', sometimes sharpened, and not meant to take heavy blows but merely deflect them.

It seems like an interesting idea anyways, but I can't imagine it working with any current classes so a new class may be the better choice, loving the new concepts and animations by the way, what software do you use, Photoshop for the artwork I'm guessing but what about the animation?

Also, I've started a thread just around multi-user abilities and formations, if you'd like to have a look feel free. ^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kristal

I think I'm seeing a possible problem with dualwield shields in real life: any sufficiently hard blow would break your wrists :(

If the concept idea is to use armor as a weapon, wouldn't it make more sense to wear heavy armor to distribute the force of impact across a larger area? With two interlocking shields and spiked armor, you could go fully hedgehog and let the enemy tear itself to pieces.

What if, instead of bucklers, it would use a gauntlet with an oversized armguard doubling as a shield?

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Nothing a bit of crafty engineering can't fix! Best of both worlds :)

The Shield would clip into the arm brace firmly and be fixed into place. The Arm brace would take the majority of any brunt force impact while the hand slot would offer grip control.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...mBrace-WEB.jpg

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Originally Posted by airsparrowhawk

I've looked into it and a lot of shields in past civilisations came with spikes, sharpened edges and often came with large blunt objects attached. The Hoplites for example, an ancient Greek civilization, often fought with sharp edges on their shields so it could function as both a defensive and offensive weapon. In addition, many medieval styles of combat used a single-handed sword and a small shield called a Buckler, this shield was meant to function as a 'punching shield', sometimes sharpened, and not meant to take heavy blows but merely deflect them.

It seems like an interesting idea anyways, but I can't imagine it working with any current classes so a new class may be the better choice, loving the new concepts and animations by the way, what software do you use, Photoshop for the artwork I'm guessing but what about the animation?

Also, I've started a thread just around multi-user abilities and formations, if you'd like to have a look feel free. ^^

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Awesome Info, Thanks! /

This weapon would be best suited in the hands of a PLD due to their A+ combat skill rating in shield so they would see the most defense response during battle. The damage side of things would depend on the weapon skills and would be a dangerous weapon in the hands of a job like WAR with all of the punishing job traits and abilities available to them. It was designed to be similar to a high end Axe, so any job that built a decent melee gear set could get the most out of this weapon. A job class especially created for this weapon would rock though lol... even though I'm a little bias :)

Yep, I'm using Photoshop for both illustration and the animating (using CS6 but I'm sure as long as you have timeline functionality you can transfer layer content to it and create your animated gif).

Very cool thread also, I dig the multi-Provoke ^.^/ (I've been wanting a Provokga for years <.< )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kingfury

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Awesome Info, Thanks! /

This weapon would be best suited in the hands of a PLD due to their A+ combat skill rating in shield so they would see the most defense response during battle. The damage side of things would depend on the weapon skills and would be a dangerous weapon in the hands of a job like WAR with all of the punishing job traits and abilities available to them. It was designed to be similar to a high end Axe, so any job that built a decent melee gear set could get the most out of this weapon. A job class especially created for this weapon would rock though lol... even though I'm a little bias :)

Yep, I'm using Photoshop for both illustration and the animating (using CS6 but I'm sure as long as you have timeline functionality you can transfer layer content to it and create your animated gif).

Very cool thread also, I dig the multi-Provoke ^.^/ (I've been wanting a Provokga for years <.< )

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My pleasure, I just love seeing ideas like this come to fruition, I'm an Animation/Games Art graduate with a bit of history in modding, games ideas generation and the like so I appreciate how hard it is to concept a good idea, also I suck at drawing off the top of my head so I appreciate the amount of effort that goes into these concepts.

And I can see a PLD or WAR using this, definately, but WAR's always struck me a bit more like a 'Berserker' class, a hit-as-hard-as-you-can-despite-damage class whilst PLD's always been a bit more of a 'Magic Shield' class, the physical element of the PLD never stuck for me (at least from an art style and lore perspective anyway). It's the reason I've suggested a complete new job for this class. Also, after seeing the last concept you posted with the attachable shield, I had flashbacks of The Avengers and Captain America's mystical boomerang shield (I don't know how that works either), not sure if it would work but I hope the thought of that being in Vana'diel gave you a bit of a giggle anyway.

Ah you do it all in Photoshop? Animation and all? Cool stuff, back in college we were taught to do it in another Adobe product that hooked into Photoshop, but I can't remember the name for the life of me, I suppose nowadays it's integrated the two together hey? I like to think I'm pretty all right on my 3D animation, wish I could animate 2D stuff to the same degree but because I always did 2D animation in flash, it seemed so long-winded (although the 2D guys on my course used to tell me Flash was easier and more flexible once you got the hang of it).

And thanks! After making that first post in your thread I just had to explore the possibility and see what people thought, I'd illustrate it if I could but I'm not really any good with my drawing-from-imagination skills, I need something to base my ideas on, I never had any problem with life drawing but from the top of my head it's a no-no. Do you mind if I ask if you use references when you draw things at all or is it all from the top of your head?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kingfury

Actually, apparently it's not just SquareEnix that
hasn't explored this concept, cause I can't seem
to find any information anywhere about a fighting
style composed of dual-wielding melee shields.
Unless I'm just looking in the wrong places or
typing in the wrong names into google, I'm not
sure if there has ever been a fighting
style composed of using two shields primarily as
both weapon and defense (Yeah Rygar had one
badass Discarmor at his disposal, but that's where
the line ends lol). I would be amazed to find out
that such a fighting style ever existed.

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Also after going over this point I can think of two examples in games but they're really loose on the 'dual-shield' or just shield combat idea, the only things that come to mind are:

http://images.khinsider.com/Kingdom%...ders/Vexen.png

Vexen from Kingdom Hearts who uses a single large shield on it's own and the element of ice to fight.

http://www.dabidsblog.com/wp-content...me-sprites.png

And the Skirmisher Murmillo from Halo: Reach, they use plasma pistols primarily to fight but utilise
dual small shields on either arm to deflect shots.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by airsparrowhawk

I've looked into it and a lot of shields in past civilisations came with spikes, sharpened edges and often came with large blunt objects attached. The Hoplites for example, an ancient Greek civilization, often fought with sharp edges on their shields so it could function as both a defensive and offensive weapon. In addition, many medieval styles of combat used a single-handed sword and a small shield called a Buckler, this shield was meant to function as a 'punching shield', sometimes sharpened, and not meant to take heavy blows but merely deflect them.

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If it has spikes, it's usually a decorative thing. "Sharp" edges aren't really all that sharp on shields either. Lots of cultures did use them offensively, but they don't generally use either because there isn't any real point. You don't try to stab someone with the spike, it's just supposed to look scary so they stay away from you. You also never try to slash someone with the edge of the shield. Greek Hoplites and Roman Legionnaires used their shields extensively as weapons, but they don't actually try to bash people like I think you are thinking. If there is an opening, they basically try to tap them with the front edge of the shield. It doesn't sound like much, but those shields weigh so much they can very easily shatter a skull or break a limb that way.

Also, "punch" shields don't mean what you think. It's referring to how you block with them. You "punch" weapons out of the way. They are pretty much useless as an offensive weapon due to their low weight and small size.

Even so, the whole idea of "dual wielding" shields makes very little sense. The range of motion is too short. It will just look silly. Having a shield as an offensive weapon does work and has been done, it just gets ludicrous when you have two of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mathieu

If it has spikes, it's usually a decorative thing. "Sharp" edges aren't really all that sharp on shields either. Lots of cultures did use them offensively, but they don't generally use either because there isn't any real point. You don't try to stab someone with the spike, it's just supposed to look scary so they stay away from you. You also never try to slash someone with the edge of the shield. Greek Hoplites and Roman Legionnaires used their shields extensively as weapons, but they don't actually try to bash people like I think you are thinking. If there is an opening, they basically try to tap them with the front edge of the shield. It doesn't sound like much, but those shields weigh so much they can very easily shatter a skull or break a limb that way.

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Adding spikes to a shield, weapon or armour in general will rarely be purely decorative, large spikes at least will add a considerable amount of weight to anything and can easily make a tool impractical if they're just slapped on carelessly for decoration and/or intimidation tactics, good combat has always been about efficiency, if there's any spikes involved, they'll nearly always be intended to be used in combat.

I'm not stating they'd bash their enemy with a large shield to cause damage, but a small shield with a sharpened edge could easily be used to take a swipe at an off-guard enemy and make a deep cut with ease, take a razor blade, even with the slowest movement you can easily cut through things, so if a stroke with a sharpened shield is delivered, slow or quick, will cut into exposed enemies quite easily.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mathieu

Also, "punch" shields don't mean what you think. It's referring to how you block with them. You "punch" weapons out of the way. They are pretty much useless as an offensive weapon due to their low weight and small size.

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I'm assuming by "Punch" shields you mean Bucklers? They're useless for the most part but a shot to the head with that can easily be a killing blow, unarmed boxers knock each other out all the time in the ring, if you're wielding a weighted metal object that covers your hand when you do that, you could easily crack bones with a well-placed shot. But I will agree that traditional usage is just for deflecting weapons rather than dealing blows.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mathieu

Even so, the whole idea of "dual wielding" shields makes very little sense. The range of motion is too short. It will just look silly. Having a shield as an offensive weapon does work and has been done, it just gets ludicrous when you have two of them.

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It does make very little sense but then again so does the idea of a Buster Sword in FFVII, a sword that size just isn't practical for movement and supposing someone actually could swing it, it'd tire that person out incredibly quickly regardless of physical strength or stamina. Still it's a beloved weapon and the great sword by extension takes from this as do a variety of fantasy zanbato.

This is a fantasy world we're talking about, you're allowed to break the rules of physics and practicality a little in return for artistic flair and well-thought out design plans to correct any flaws that would be apparent in the real world. The range of motion is no less short than that of a dagger so range on it's own isn't really an issue. Also, I'm curious, where else has it been done before?

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Originally Posted by airsparrowhawk

My pleasure, I just love seeing ideas like this come to fruition, I'm an Animation/Games Art graduate with a bit of history in modding, games ideas generation and the like so I appreciate how hard it is to concept a good idea, also I suck at drawing off the top of my head so I appreciate the amount of effort that goes into these concepts.

And I can see a PLD or WAR using this, definately, but WAR's always struck me a bit more like a 'Berserker' class, a hit-as-hard-as-you-can-despite-damage class whilst PLD's always been a bit more of a 'Magic Shield' class, the physical element of the PLD never stuck for me (at least from an art style and lore perspective anyway). It's the reason I've suggested a complete new job for this class. Also, after seeing the last concept you posted with the attachable shield, I had flashbacks of The Avengers and Captain America's mystical boomerang shield (I don't know how that works either), not sure if it would work but I hope the thought of that being in Vana'diel gave you a bit of a giggle anyway.

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Yep, this was an attempt to alter the play style of the PLD completely since their current medium-moderate damage isn't really helping them get back into end game content. I wanted to come up with something that felt "Sentinel" aesthetically, but was actually very fluid and brutal if it needed to be per the situation. If one looks at a player dual wielding axes, at 1st glance it doesn't look very intimidating, but on the battlefield they can cause considerable damage if done right. The attachable shield mechanism was really for the "How would it work in real life practically" question lol. I mean honestly, our weapons magically "float" on our waists and back in Vana d'iel so we technically don't have to worry about such details as how a shield wouldn't break someones wrists if used during combat :) but it's still fun to design solutions where necessary.

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Originally Posted by airsparrowhawk

Ah you do it all in Photoshop? Animation and all? Cool stuff, back in college we were taught to do it in another Adobe product that hooked into Photoshop, but I can't remember the name for the life of me, I suppose nowadays it's integrated the two together hey? I like to think I'm pretty all right on my 3D animation, wish I could animate 2D stuff to the same degree but because I always did 2D animation in flash, it seemed so long-winded (although the 2D guys on my course used to tell me Flash was easier and more flexible once you got the hang of it).

And thanks! After making that first post in your thread I just had to explore the possibility and see what people thought, I'd illustrate it if I could but I'm not really any good with my drawing-from-imagination skills, I need something to base my ideas on, I never had any problem with life drawing but from the top of my head it's a no-no. Do you mind if I ask if you use references when you draw things at all or is it all from the top of your head?

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Yeah, CS6 is a beastly software even more so now that they've added video editing and even 3D functionality to it. I seriously had to watch a number of youtube videos to get a full scope on how to use all the new tools in it lol. I like flash for web animation, and that software does have union skinning available for frame by frame animation, but I just love the freedom of a good o'l Photoshop document with all of its powerful tools. I think it's the reason they've packed it so full this time around because they most likely got massive feedback that folks didn't want to leave Photoshop if they didn't have to. I'm using the old school frame by frame method in photoshop, but I'm going for a very anime feel to the animations which is as far as I know best achieved by doing it the old fashion way of animating. It takes much longer, but I like the results.

As for reference for drawing, it depends on what I'm drawing. As a rule of thumb, if I'm drawing something I've never drawn before, I make it a point to locate any and all strong reference I can to educate my minds eye on what I'm attempting to produce. On the other hand, if I'm drawing something like the human body/figure, something I've studied just about my entire art career, unless it's a super strange position I can usually pop out what I'm thinking fine without reference. In terms of the animation, I studied anime action videos frame by frame to understand how to bring that awesome energy to life.

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Originally Posted by airsparrowhawk

Also after going over this point I can think of two examples in games but they're really loose on the 'dual-shield' or just shield combat idea, the only things that come to mind are:

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Again, very cool examples, and I'm going to have to search for some videos of that fellow with the sharp shield to see exactly how he fights with it. I can swear I've seen an animated comic character with two glowing shields at their wrists as well and they used them for deflecting in a similar fashion but I can't put my finger on where it was. Actually in terms of comic characters, Wonder Woman very actively uses her wrist bands to deflect projectiles but it's still not "two melee shields".

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YAHZsTbqiE...nder_Woman.jpg

The search continues! lol

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Originally Posted by Mathieu

If it has spikes, it's usually a decorative thing. "Sharp" edges aren't really all that sharp on shields either. Lots of cultures did use them offensively, but they don't generally use either because there isn't any real point. You don't try to stab someone with the spike, it's just supposed to look scary so they stay away from you. You also never try to slash someone with the edge of the shield. Greek Hoplites and Roman Legionnaires used their shields extensively as weapons, but they don't actually try to bash people like I think you are thinking. If there is an opening, they basically try to tap them with the front edge of the shield. It doesn't sound like much, but those shields weigh so much they can very easily shatter a skull or break a limb that way.

Also, "punch" shields don't mean what you think. It's referring to how you block with them. You "punch" weapons out of the way. They are pretty much useless as an offensive weapon due to their low weight and small size.

Even so, the whole idea of "dual wielding" shields makes very little sense. The range of motion is too short. It will just look silly. Having a shield as an offensive weapon does work and has been done, it just gets ludicrous when you have two of them.

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Awww now that's no fun if you drain all the "Fantasy" out of the "Final Fantasy"! ^.^

As it stands, I honestly can't say how "ludicrous" dual wielding shields would actually be in real life if done properly because I can't find any real world reference to study to make that conclusion lol. All I can do is fabricate the action via animation to try and simulate the fighting style's movement and potential at this point. If I had to put logic to it, the shields wouldn't be overly heavy, and would allow the user the mobility to switch from defensive stances to offensive stances very quickly. The edges could vary from sharp to blunt, but would be used to cause impact and slashing damage if used to jab an opponent or slice an opponent quickly. So long as the shields were fixed to the users arm in a very sturdy manner, the damage they could inflict based on the point of hitting their opponent could be very critical.

However, there's plenty of stuff currently in FFXI that logically/practically makes zero since. For example, a Tarutaru's "Great Sword or Great Axe" by scientific rules and boundaries wouldn't hurt nearly as much as a Galka's Great Sword or Great Axe. Mass and weight just wouldn't work in their favor to put a big hurt on anything but something smaller than them or someones ankles realistically :) But that's the fun of it all right there. Even though it doesn't make complete "practical" since, it's fun to watch a 3 foot character maul a 5 story monster with a weapon that's the size of a Katana. It's "ludicrous", but it's a fantasy game, so it's alright to relax and enjoy the show. ^.^/

http://tkr.cosmic-hero.com/tarugsword.bmp

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...ruGreatAxe.jpg

While I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of dual wielding medium/small shields, I don't really see the practicality, other than turning your PLD into a MNK with Block instead of Guard.

Now, what I think would be more useful would be to treat sword and shield as two weapon fighting. Just like dual wield, you would strike once with your sword, then one with the shield. Give the shield a delay for attacking purposes.

Break Shield Mastery down into tiers like Dual Wield I, II, III, IV and V. Give PLD Shield Master I, II, III, IV, and V. Shield Mastery acts as PLDs Dual Wield by reducing delay.

lol i did this in demon souls and beat the game dualwielding shields.

Awesome concept.

Its like a MNK with shields, blocks instead of counters etc.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

While I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of dual wielding medium/small shields, I don't really see the practicality, other than turning your PLD into a MNK with Block instead of Guard.

Now, what I think would be more useful would be to treat sword and shield as two weapon fighting. Just like dual wield, you would strike once with your sword, then one with the shield. Give the shield a delay for attacking purposes.

Break Shield Mastery down into tiers like Dual Wield I, II, III, IV and V. Give PLD Shield Master I, II, III, IV, and V. Shield Mastery acts as PLDs Dual Wield by reducing delay.

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Well ironically, that's exactly what the concept would be although I think you underestimate what kind of a torn that kind of PLD would be to a monster. To merge the damage of a MNK with the defensive capabilities and magic spells available to a PLD would be a new battle tank class indeed for FFXI, so that would be the goal with these weapons.

• The 1st goal would be to create a weapon that would be most intuitive to a PLD, so what would better than a melee shield that can cause damage and still process a block. I stated in an earlier post that a PLD would still have the option to use a sword alongside these melee shields (though it might require the "Dual wield" job trait should they choose to do so depending on how they're programmed) and it would work exactly as you're suggesting, "to treat sword and shield as two weapon fighting. Just like dual wield, you would strike once with your sword, then one with the shield"
  
• The next goal would be to create a new and diverse list of weapon skills that would cater to a tank's need to generate high amounts of enmity. That would be possible with a new option like this since sword wasn't really designed with this in mind.
  
• Lastly, attach some really helpful stats that would help greatly when tanking. Everything that would be absolutely amazing to have attached to a melee weapon that hasn't been available before.

In the end, such an idea would help solve some big issues with tanking if developed just right.

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Originally Posted by kingfury

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Here's some examples of a few standard, crafted and dropped battle shields:

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Alright, time for the analysis engine to get to work.

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Originally Posted by kingfury

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http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...ats-5a-WEB.jpg

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[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell
DMG:8 Delay:295 DEF:1
DPS 1.62 TP/hit 7.8%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
For comparison:
[SWORD] Bronze Sword
DMG:6 Delay:231
DPS 1.56 TP/hit 6.2%
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/THF/PLD/DRK/BRD/RNG/NIN/DRG/BLU
[AXE]Bronze Axe
DMG:8 Delay:276
DPS 1.74 TP/hit 7.3%
Lv.1 WAR/DRK/BST/RNG
[KATANA]Kunai
DMG:4 Delay:190
DPS 1.26 TP/hit 5.2%
Lv.1 NIN
[DAGGER]Bronze Knife
DMG:4 Delay:195
DPS 1.23 TP/hit 5.3%
Lv.1 WAR/THF/PLD/DRK/BRD/RNG/SAM/NIN/DRG/COR/PUP/DNC
[CLUB]Ash Club
DMG:4 Delay:264
DPS 0.91 TP/hit 6.97%
Lv.1 ALL JOBS

Right off the bat I see concerns here as this most basic level 1 weapon outperforms the weapon it will most likely be compared to, the Bronze Sword. In fact, it appears to outperform every alternative weapon except the Bronze Axe, which will only be comparable for WAR and BST, and which lacks that valuable-early-on DEF+1.

Additionally, if Young Shell can be wielded as a weapon in the offhand slot at level 1, it becomes extremely powerful - this is a level range at which even Ninja can only wield one Katana, and Hand-to-Hand functions at Delay 400 with only slight combat bonuses from its weapons.


Furthermore, let's compare this to the existing NQ shield offering:
[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell
DMG:8 Delay:295 DEF:1
DPS 1.62 TP/hit 7.8%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
[SHIELD] Lauan Shield
DEF:1
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST/SAM

Well I think it's immediately obvious that these are the same thing defensively speaking, making Young Shell better without question due to its damage capability.


What I would strongly recommend is to reduce Young Shell's DMG rating by two points.


At a one-point damage reduction, you have...
[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell
DMG:7 Delay:295 DEF:1
DPS 1.42 TP/hit 7.8%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
compared to
[SWORD] Bronze Sword
DMG:6 Delay:231
DPS 1.56 TP/hit 6.2%
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/THF/PLD/DRK/BRD/RNG/NIN/DRG/BLU

Which is better, but still close enough that the Defense bonus makes the shield too easy a choice.

With two points down, you get...

[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell
DMG:6 Delay:295 DEF:1
DPS 1.22 TP/hit 7.8%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
compared to
[SWORD] Bronze Sword
DMG:6 Delay:231
DPS 1.56 TP/hit 6.2%
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/THF/PLD/DRK/BRD/RNG/NIN/DRG/BLU

which is a point where there is a real tradeoff in using one versus the other. On the one hand you get a 0.34 gain in DPS, versus DEF+1. When Protect I is still nine levels off for a starting Paladin, that's something you'll need to think about - and it's not much easier of a question for a Red Mage.

With Warrior, the Bronze Axe is rather powerful starting off, so it's a little easier to decide to use that (at least until level 5 and your first Great Axe.)

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Originally Posted by kingfury

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http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...tats-5-WEB.jpg

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The issues regarding Young Shell +1 compared to other weapons are the same as its NQ version. However, here it's really worth comparing this to the Lauan Shield +1 and the Marine Shield
[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell +1
DMG:9 Delay:290
DEF:2 Shield Skill +2 (Shield Size unknown)
DPS: 1.86 TP/hit 7.7%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
compared to
[SHIELD]Lauan Shield +1
DEF:2 (Shield size 2)
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST/SAM
or
[SHIELD]Marine Shield
DEF:1 VIT+1 AGI+1 water resist +1
(Shield size 1)
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/PLD/BST/SAM

It's worth noting here that the Lv.1 Marine Shield is dropped by a Lv.12 NM. Young SHell +1, by comparison, is presumably a crafted shield, like Lauan +1. Right away it's plainly obvious that Young SHell +1 is far more useful than Lauan +1. It has SHield Skill +2 on top of DEF+2. Because VIT and AGI each give a half point to Defense and Evasion respectively, the second point of Defense on Young SHell compared to Marine Shield's 1 Defense make it strictly better than that as well due to the Parrying +2.

The solution, in this case, is to either remove the Shield Skill bonus entirely, or (and I prefer this option to help make the battle shield stand out as different than a normal shield) reduce both DEF and Shield Skill to 1 each (as well as reducing the DMG rating to balance it with weapons, similar to what I noted in the NQ weapon's part of this post.) Including the Damage change I recommended above, your resulting weapon compares like so:

[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell +1
DMG:7 Delay:290
DEF:1 Shield Skill +1 (Shield size unknown)
DPS: 1.44 TP/hit 7.7%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
as compared to
[SHIELD] Lauan Shield +1
DEF:2 (Shield size 2)
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST/SAM
or
[SHIELD]Marine Shield
DEF:1 VIT+1 AGI+1 water resist +1
(Shield size 1)
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/PLD/BST/SAM

and

[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell +1
DMG:7 Delay:290
DEF:1 Shield Skill +1 (Shield size unknown)
DPS: 1.44 TP/hit 7.7%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
as compared to
[SWORD] Bronze Sword +1
DMG:7 Delay:225
DPS 1.87 TP/hit 6%
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/THF/PLD/DRK/BRD/RNG/NIN/DRG/BLU
or
[AXE] Bronze Axe +1
DMG:9 Delay:268
DPS 2.01 TP/hit 7.1%
Lv.1 WAR/DRK/BST/RNG

Here the heightened TP gain rate makes Young Shell +1 a viable option from a solely offensive stance despite its lesser DPS, while the highly attractive Shield Skill +1 makes it stand out from the other Shields offered at level 1 - and (assuming you can dual wield the shield at level 1) the ability to stack the shield for DEF:2 and Shield Skill +2 while also getting double attacks before anyone but a Monk does makes it extremely attractive - though not necessarily moreso than being able to offhand this while mainhanding one of the above +1 weapons.





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I started this post early this morning and am coming back to and finishing it just before midnight, so I'm going to let it stand with just the analysis of the level 1 weapons, and I'll take a look at the higher level ones later.

Kingfury, I hope you don't think I'm being too much of a downer on these. I like what you've put together, and I really do think that if you take my suggestions here, and then extrapolate similar modifications to the higher level items, you would have gear that attracts use while avoiding complaints regarding 'broken' or 'overpowered' equipment.

If you put those out some time tonight or early in the morning (as far as Eastern time goes), I'll gladly analyze that instead of continuing on these. Not to rush you, though - if you want me to hold off, just let me know.

EDIT:
Upon further consideration, given the assumption that an NQ Young Shell placed in the off-hand slot allows for both additional attacks as well as use of the Shield Skill for blocking, you could easily remove its DEF:1 value altogether, or add a 'When equipped in Main slot' condition for the Defense bonus.

Actually, a 'when equipped in Main slot' condition for DEF bonus might be worth adding down the line for all Battle Shields, considering the value of being able to attack with it off-hand without Dual-Wield. You may want to add that to the Shield Skill value as well. Perhaps give them an off-hand only Parrying bonus (at higher levels,) if the primary-hand Battle Shield triggers Parrying instead of Shield skill. This is not something I'm entirely sold on as the best way to make Battle Shields work, but it's certainly worth consideration, I think.

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Originally Posted by Yokai

Alright, time for the analysis engine to get to work.
EDIT:
Upon further consideration, given the assumption that an NQ Young Shell placed in the off-hand slot allows for both additional attacks as well as use of the Shield Skill for blocking, you could easily remove its DEF:1 value altogether, or add a 'When equipped in Main slot' condition for the Defense bonus.

Actually, a 'when equipped in Main slot' condition for DEF bonus might be worth adding down the line for all Battle Shields, considering the value of being able to attack with it off-hand without Dual-Wield. You may want to add that to the Shield Skill value as well. Perhaps give them an off-hand only Parrying bonus (at higher levels,) if the primary-hand Battle Shield triggers Parrying instead of Shield skill. This is not something I'm entirely sold on as the best way to make Battle Shields work, but it's certainly worth consideration, I think.

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Now that's a big post! lol

For the record, it's awesome to know that you're thinking as deeply about this concept as I am lol. Now on to the breakdown!

Alright, so the 1st thing that jumps out at me is that you're comparing this weapon to Offhand shields at level one, and that's not where the idea was heading. If anything, at level one, a player would equip this as their main hand weapon and select a standard shield for their sub. The reason it's best compared to an Axe is because that's what it was designed to most similar to in terms of damage output versus any other one hand weapons.
Theoretically speaking (unless the Devs would choose to program it otherwise should they like this idea), even though this is both weapon and shield in one, it would not activate the Dual wield job trait just by equipping it in the sub slot. In fact a player would have to choose a sub job that offers "Dual wield" to even be able to equip this weapon in their sub slot. That being said, your worries that this would be more desirable over the standard one-handed weapon because someone would use it in their offhand slot is misplaced since they wouldn't be able to achieve this at level 1. Now subbing NIN at level 20 (Since NIN gets Dual wield at level 10), that's when things could interesting and players within the job lineup could start playing with this weapon in their offhand should they want to.

It's hard to truly compare this weapon to others based on stats alone since there are no other hybrid weapons available to us, but the idea is to introduce a weapon that's the best at what it's used for which would be tanking. In other words, you wouldn't be able to fairly compare it's overall worth simply by just comparing stats with say an Axe of similar level and damage because an Axe lacks the same design functionality. In the battle shield's defense, we have a wide variety of weapon choices for offensive only damage output, but the only tool we have available to us in regards to defense is a shield and gear. That's 13 offensive only options versus only 2 defensive only options. Granted, there are MANY different types of offensive options that offer defensive stats and are technically still used to cause damage, but these are still not truly a defensive functioning option like a shield. The Battle shield would be the the definitive hybrid category birthed from a union of both offensive and defensive functionality and would stand alone in between the two.

I really like the idea but, realistically, this would require a major work the likes of which you can expect from a new expansion. And the new one is already announced, and we won't get another one after that any time soon (if ever).

This whole idea would require not only new items, which would be pretty fast to design, but completely new in-game mechanics and animations.
I think the concept goes along very well with a NEW JOB, rather than just adding this playstyle to a current one.
For example name the new job "Gladiator", give him something like medium armour, two armoured shields, and this different playstile where you dualwield shields.

What would happen with the already existing shields? Would this new class be able to equip them? Or would he need specially designed shields? At which point it would be like adding a completely different weapon category like, say, Kusarigama.
New animations, new properties, new skill levels, new weapon skills.

Now multiply that for the 5 races and for the different genders and you get an idea of the huge amount of work it would require.


There are more chances to see thi concept re-used somehow in FFXIV than FFXI, honestly.
Nonetheless, kudos for your idea Kingfury, I liked it a lot.
(wish you could draw me as a galka as sexy as the one in your first illustration... /drool )

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Originally Posted by kingfury

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Now that's a big post! lol

For the record, it's awesome to know that you're thinking as deeply about this concept as I am lol. Now on to the breakdown!

Alright, so the 1st thing that jumps out at me is that you're comparing this weapon to Offhand shields at level one, and that's not where the idea was heading.

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I was ALSO comparing it to weapons, you'll note.
You have to also compare these to shields because these weapons offer defensive bonuses as well as offensive values, and as a hybrid item they should not be outperforming the solely defensive item they will replace in the offhand slot when they can be wielded in the offhand slot.

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If anything, at level one, a player would equip this as their main hand weapon and select a standard shield for their sub.

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Perhaps I did not articulate this well, but this is the scenario I operated off of when comparing Young Shell with other weapons such a Bronze Axe and Bronze Sword.

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The reason it's best compared to an Axe is because that's what it was designed to most similar to in terms of damage output versus any other one hand weapons.

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However, you need to keep in mind that Axes are solely offensive tools, and factor in the defensive benefit of a main-hand Young Shell when making the comparison. To ignore that is to make an incomplete and inaccurate comparison.

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Theoretically speaking (unless the Devs would choose to program it otherwise should they like this idea), even though this is both weapon and shield in one, it would not activate the Dual wield job trait just by equipping it in the sub slot. In fact a player would have to choose a sub job that offers "Dual wield" to even be able to equip this weapon in their sub slot. That being said, your worries that this would be more desirable over the standard one-handed weapon because someone would use it in their offhand slot is misplaced since they wouldn't be able to achieve this at level 1.

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That's fair, but I would say it does not negate the majority of my analysis, only the bottom section.

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Now subbing NIN at level 20 (Since NIN gets Dual wield at level 10), that's when things could interesting and players within the job lineup could start playing with this weapon in their offhand should they want to.

It's hard to truly compare this weapon to others based on stats alone since there are no other hybrid weapons available to us, but the idea is to introduce a weapon that's the best at what it's used for which would be tanking. In other words, you wouldn't be able to fairly compare it's overall worth simply by just comparing stats with say an Axe of similar level and damage because an Axe lacks the same design functionality.

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I disagree strongly with you here. The Battle Shield in main-hand only, functions as a one-handed weapon that also provides defensive stats. Therefore it can be fairly compared to any other one-handed weapon. You simply need to factor in its defensive stats as part of the analysis, the same way you would factor in Parrying Knife's Parrying Skill +10 stat.

Furthermore, while trying to achieve 'best for tanking' is a noble goal, it's not excuse to disregard balance considerations.

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In the battle shield's defense, we have a wide variety of weapon choices for offensive only damage output, but the only tool we have available to us in regards to defense is a shield and gear. That's 13 offensive only options versus only 2 defensive only options. Granted, there are MANY different types of offensive options that offer defensive stats and are technically still used to cause damage, but these are still not truly a defensive functioning option like a shield. The Battle shield would be the the definitive hybrid category birthed from a union of both offensive and defensive functionality and would stand alone in between the two.

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it's hybrid status is why the Battle Shield needs to be compared to be existing weapon options it may be replacing as well as the existing shield options it may replace. A Battle Shield that CAN (but not always will) replace a different weapon like a Sword or Axe, is fine. A Battle Shield that CAN (but not always will) replace a normal Shield is too.

A Battle Shield that will always replace a sword or axe, or will always replace a normal shield - or worse, will always replace a weapon-and-shield or dual-wield-weapon setup - is a good idea gone terribly wrong.

Fun side note: you can't edit existing posts on the mobile version of the forum site.

Even if you disagree about the 'good idea gone terribly wrong' point, the material effect is that it becomes exceedingly unlikely the dev team would provide it any serious consideration. What I want to do here is help you to maximize the likelihood of the dev team seriously considering adding these to the game.

Unfortunately that means in this case the awesome needs to be toned down to be balanced with existing equipment, both weapons and shields. It can't be better than primary comparable weapons because it is not only a weapon, it is also a shield. It can't be better than existing shields because it is not only a shield, it is also a weapon.

This is the curse of the Hybrid - it cannot be better than a specialist, yet it must still be good enough to use.

Right now, based on the Young Shell and Young Shell +1, your Battle Shields make Swords worthless and make normal Shields worthless. No way would a Paladin use anything else. A Warrior MIGHT use an Axe instead, but probably not.

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Originally Posted by kingfury

Well ironically, that's exactly what the concept would be although I think you underestimate what kind of a torn that kind of PLD would be to a monster. To merge the damage of a MNK with the defensive capabilities and magic spells available to a PLD would be a new battle tank class indeed for FFXI, so that would be the goal with these weapons.

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Why would this be a PLD weapon though? I'd peg it more as a PUP weapon, given the weird H2H weapons they tend to use. It would be working off Guard skill, which gives MNKs and PUPs an easier route to skill it up.

Perhaps it's the imagery you've supplied, but I simply cannot see it being used by a PLD just because it has 'shield' in it's description somewhere. PLD is a shining knight in armor with sword and shield in hand, not a bare-chested tattoo-covered berserker punching with shields. MNK I can see fit that image better, but you practically need to be a circus freak to wield such an odd weapon effectively, which pegs it as a PUP weapon, along with adargas and sainti.

Perhaps you could do a side-by-side comparison of PLD, MNK and PUP, and see who pulls off the most iconic look :D

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Originally Posted by Kristal

Why would this be a PLD weapon though? I'd peg it more as a PUP weapon, given the weird H2H weapons they tend to use. It would be working off Guard skill, which gives MNKs and PUPs an easier route to skill it up.

Perhaps it's the imagery you've supplied, but I simply cannot see it being used by a PLD just because it has 'shield' in it's description somewhere. PLD is a shining knight in armor with sword and shield in hand, not a bare-chested tattoo-covered berserker punching with shields. MNK I can see fit that image better, but you practically need to be a circus freak to wield such an odd weapon effectively, which pegs it as a PUP weapon, along with adargas and sainti.

Perhaps you could do a side-by-side comparison of PLD, MNK and PUP, and see who pulls off the most iconic look :D

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Ultimately it'd be a new job in itself.

It's certainly not something PUP or MNK would use though, you're fighting with shields, you know those things neither job has skill in.