The Melee Mage

You mean like how a war is crucified for using a one hander and a shield..... Maybe because of things like that.

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Originally Posted by Nawesemo

You mean like how a war is crucified for using a one hander and a shield..... Maybe because of things like that.

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I'm not sure this is the best comparison, unless your point is that somebody dumb is out there somewhere trying to Stun something awful while armed with a whacking device instead of an Apamajas II.

That guy is definitely out there, just waiting for his big chance to make the world a worse place; but fighting difficult monsters isn't the only situation in FFXI these days. There are a lot of low-level monsters out there, some of them just waiting to drop currency or alexandrite.

All Warriors always have the goal of killing a monster in mind, or at least should, so using worse weapons only moves toward the same goal more slowly and more horribly.

If a mage's goal is to provide twice the Box Steps to help a !! magically appear over a giant mushroom's head more quickly, standing at 20.1 distance isn't going to help much with that.

Just because I "can" tank any given abyssea NM on Whm doesnt mean I should. Rdms want to melee fine and dandy, but they do it wrong given the situation, and yes they will get the "wtf" attitude, I know some of the best rdms around, f'in elvaans at that, and they make all sorts of noise with their swords, but if given better options for melee dmg, I or anyone for that matter wont choose a rdm over a well geared war for that last dmg spot, .......anything else, yeah gear how you like, but rdm spot isn't up front all that often, yes they "can", but given better options, ....... Yeah this been brought up and shut down so many times..... Pld has More to complain about the glorious rdms on damage alone..... There isn't anything wrong with the cog that fills all holes, other than there being better cogs made for those holes.... Love red mage, but it still is a support job that can dd well. Be happy with that.

Martial Mages Mortal Mashfest Nobody else seems to like the idea. I personally added 5/5 Shattersoul and I use it often when I'm on SCH doing low man stuff such as Salvage, Limbus, Nyzul and other smaller scale events. But that's about as much fun as I get as a melee mage.

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Originally Posted by Nawesemo

Just because I "can" tank any given abyssea NM on Whm doesnt mean I should. Rdms want to melee fine and dandy, but they do it wrong given the situation, and yes they will get the "wtf" attitude, I know some of the best rdms around, f'in elvaans at that, and they make all sorts of noise with their swords, but if given better options for melee dmg, I or anyone for that matter wont choose a rdm over a well geared war for that last dmg spot, .......anything else, yeah gear how you like, but rdm spot isn't up front all that often, yes they "can", but given better options, ....... Yeah this been brought up and shut down so many times..... Pld has More to complain about the glorious rdms on damage alone..... There isn't anything wrong with the cog that fills all holes, other than there being better cogs made for those holes.... Love red mage, but it still is a support job that can dd well. Be happy with that.

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The reason RDM can not easily fulfill a front line role easily is because SE never gives the melee side much attention. It shows all throughout the job, and is sad because it is meant to be a mix of melee & mage. A quote from a post I made earlier today...

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Would it kill them to give us at least some job traits for melee? I mean seriously if you look down our current list we have...

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Magic Attack Bonus I~III
Magic Defense Bonus I~III
Fast Cast I~V
Clear Mind I~III
Shield Mastery I~II
Resist Petrify I~II
Magic Burst Bonus I~III
Tranquil Heart

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But thats kinda sad when you look at a job meant to be a fighter and a mage in one, because there is only 1 slightly fighter like trait in the list, and its defensive, not to mention we first get it at level 87! I think we should get some melee traits as well...

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Look at our job abilities as well...

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Chainspell - Allows instant cast and recast of magic.
Convert - Swaps the users HP & MP.
Composure - Enhances our Enhancing Magic.
Saboteur - Enhances our enfeebling magic.
Spontaneity - gives us 1 instantly cast spell.

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The only ability in this list which is possibly melee or front line oriented is Convert, because you can keep your MP back and use Convert for an instant, last ditch effort, to heal yourself. However unless silenced, you would have absolutely no reason to do so as using a simply Cure IV will likely give you just as much HP for much less MP.

From level 1 all the way until 99 we have at most 2 front line abilities or traits, there is a reason why we seem to be more of a support job, however if SE did what they should, and changed this, RDM would be much better off. I think that also follows the idea of this thread seeing as its about helping mages melee, and should not be only in gear, but in other aspects as well. Admittedly giving BLM Attack Bonus or WHM Dual Wield is not what I am talking about, but for RDM specifically, the job which was meant to be a hybrid job to fill all roles, it should have a few more traits to boost its abilities in a front line role. You said RDM is a support job that can DD well, honestly thats not what it should be, or have ever been, it should be a hybrid that can do everything well, but not be the best at everything either.

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Originally Posted by Garota

Martial Mages Mortal Mashfest Nobody else seems to like the idea. I personally added 5/5 Shattersoul and I use it often when I'm on SCH doing low man stuff such as Salvage, Limbus, Nyzul and other smaller scale events. But that's about as much fun as I get as a melee mage.

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I am under the idea that if you have a good enough SCH, you could probably go do Neo-Nyzul and events like it that love Embrava, but do it with the SCH DDing as well. For instance if you have a NNI group and everyone can keep themselves up without needing cures, throw some Haste gear on the SCH that doesn't stay at the lamp, with their Regain, Haste, and Embrava, they can do a great job beating things to death with a stick, especially if you have a good enough Shattersoul build!

O.i.c, you want to see real dd #'s out of a rdm..... Geared properly, I just don't think its possible, they did make the other jobs for a reason ya know..... Think about it.... Rdm zomg I just did 7k with my almace at capped haste..... War >.>. /em throws his ukon in the dirt. Rdm does what its supose to, kudos to those who force more out of em and do things that others can't, but making rdm more gear to melee on par with "dd's" is just never going to happen..... Be a war you want to zomg, .... If you want to do it on rdm, that's cool to, but it was never ment to be on par with actual factual front line jobs.... They "can" but someone else probably will do it better, unless its casting slow 2, Dia 3 etc......

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Originally Posted by Nawesemo

O.i.c, you want to see real dd #'s out of a rdm..... Geared properly, I just don't think its possible, they did make the other jobs for a reason ya know..... Think about it.... Rdm zomg I just did 7k with my almace at capped haste..... War >.>. /em throws his ukon in the dirt. Rdm does what its supose to, kudos to those who force more out of em and do things that others can't, but making rdm more gear to melee on par with "dd's" is just never going to happen..... Be a war you want to zomg, .... If you want to do it on rdm, that's cool to, but it was never ment to be on par with actual factual front line jobs.... They "can" but someone else probably will do it better, unless its casting slow 2, Dia 3 etc......

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http://t.qkme.me/3531ds.jpg

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You said RDM is a support job that can DD well, honestly thats not what it should be, or have ever been, it should be a hybrid that can do everything well, but not be the best at everything either.

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Last part of everything I said. I am not saying in any way, shape, or form, that a RDM should out DD a WAR, SAM, DRK, MNK, or DRG... Please understand that before you bother to ever reply to anything I ever say about a RDM meleeing. I want RDM to have a more respectable amount of melee power, that is all. As I showed, we are very heavy on our mage side in every way, which goes against the entire idea of RDM being a Hybrid job. To add another instance, look at BLU, its a correct Hybrid job in terms of gear & abilities if you choose to be. BLU has the ability to get traits it needs for good DDing power, and is on great gear to cover it as well. A few instances of this are with these 2 sets...
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__.../Teal_Saio.png
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...re_Doublet.png
Look at these sets and tell me if you notice a reoccurring job in here... BLU. BLU was put on Aurore, not the best pieces of gear for melee, but some basic stuff, it was also put on Teal. Now look where RDM is, its on the mage only piece, same with almost all of our traits. This is what I want changed, I want to stop losing out on every piece of good gear for melee that is made for light/1 hand DDs, but excludes RDM. More examples of amazing gear that leaves RDM behind are...
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...7s_Harness.png
The closest RDM has to this, is...
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...dzu_Aketon.jpg
The only advantage the RDM body has, is the STP. It has 3 more attack, but thats made up for by the 3 more STR Toci's has, Toci's also has DEX, something for 1 of our best WSs on Sword, and the best non-Relic/Merit Dagger WS for RDM as well. Not to mention the accuracy+10 along with it, something RDM needs for melee. The head is another case for this same set, RDM was left out, alot of STR on it, has a set bonus with a great body, and is one of the best Haste pieces, I would surely use it over Zelus if given the choice. The list goes on however, there is Athos and Thaumas as well, not to mention I'm sure there are even more pieces of gear that don't come to mind right now, but RDM is left off of them. The majority of the high end gear sets that RDM is put on is mage only gear, like...
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...escription.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/6/62/S...escription.png
Which is by no means bad, but notice that 2nd body, yet again, BLU takes a place on a great piece, and leaves RDM off of the other pieces such as...
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/1/1f/E...escription.png
Which are from the same event, same as Heka's/Toci's, Teal/Aurore, and again, BLU is on the mage pieces as well as the melee pieces.

To recap.
I do not want RDM to be the best DD ever, I want RDM to have a place as a DD, and receive melee gear.
I want RDM to be treated as a Hybrid, not a mage, it was clearly designed as a Hybrid at the start, it was the only job with access to both light & dark magic, while having the power to melee with multiple weapon types. RDM has also gotten a sword as every form of its weapon to go with the job, except Relic in which it also received dagger. AF, Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean, are all swords, which match the Hybrid nature of the job, but gear is at a loss because RDM only gets mage gear, unlike BLU which often gets both mage, and light DD gear from event gear sets.

http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/4/48/A...escription.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/5/5f/E...escription.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/7/74/M...escription.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/7/7f/M...escription.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/c/c6/T...escription.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/6/6d/C...escription.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/3/31/E...escription.png
http://img.bluegartr.com/wiki/0/03/F...escription.png
I think my point on weapons has now been made.

Lastly I am not trying to offend you, troll you, or in any way insult you. However it seemed as if you ignored my points and instead went on to say that I was asking for something far different than what I said, and even seemed to ignore the end of my post as it goes completely against what you seem to believe I was saying.

Sorry to everyone that I took up half the page to say all of this, but I do seriously think RDM needs to be taken into consideration on how it is being acted upon in contrast to BLU, where it is given only mage related things for the most part, and has not been treated as the other Hybrid has.

Red MAGE. IDK What your going on about, rdm can use a sword one over many other MAGE, rdm en spells, phalanx haste 2, .... Yeah, rdm melees fine. Aside from not being able to out parse real dd.

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Originally Posted by Nawesemo

Red MAGE. IDK What your going on about, rdm can use a sword one over many other MAGE, rdm en spells, phalanx haste 2, .... Yeah, rdm melees fine. Aside from not being able to out parse real dd.

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Blue MAGE has access to alot of gear we don't that is on the melee side and makes the very powerful, stop trying to use the name of the job to say it should suck at DDing. If you rather I can go get myself 20 pieces of gear with BLU and not RDM on them that show just how much stats they can get off gear that RDM doesn't, even though they are a MAGE.

You probably don't get what I'm saying because your not paying attention.

And Blu can't spam their entire list of spells having instead to pick and choose the ones hes going to use, i feel they are overpowered, and all that don't get me started on that, if rdm gets more melee gear why pick any other job, everyone could just be avesta and solo everything.... Rdm is fine does fine and should be as you say ok at a lot of things, great at none, but slow 2 etc.... It is still what it was ment to be. Unique.

Edit: and that makes a lil sense even.... Blu more physically gifted, rdm more magic.... Still not magey enough for me but what ever, Rdms playing with swords.... Meh... Have at it.

Demon you can't win. Nawes is a troll and is just trying to stir up more sh!t. We'll add em to our ignore list and sometime next month another one will appear to take his place.

Their all just mules from various posters who want to stir the pot for fun.

pft... no one else is asking for anything less it doesn't mean we're going to get it. this is goofy given rdm's history as the defacto uber solo job, Your trolling of my opinion that *cough I pay for just like you, is kind of ignorant, ignore me if you like but my opinion still stands. Rdm is fine and dandy in the melee department, focus on you know, being more magey with your abilities given to you or change jobs.

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Originally Posted by Nawesemo

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Listen closely and you can hear the sound of thousands of hands slamming into their owners faces.

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and the best non-Relic Dagger WS for RDM as well

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*BUZZER NOISE*: Wrong - Best Non-Relic Dagger WS for RDM is Exenterator, Which, Has a 100% AGI Mod, and that body is sexy as hell for it. Everything else though, i tend to agree.

RDM Is a hybrid job, Its just its melee side has been ignored by Square Enix to some extent... However you do have to remember Temper, which at best, Can offer 20% Double Attack! So in that reality, Its really way more Mage-oriented these days, Its simply how it is. The job has potential to be a hybrid, But it would need more help. Still, You must consider it does have some pretty decent potential, however, Like most if not all other Hybrid jobs, It will never truly excel at either side of its skill set, Mage or Melee.

Most Hybrid jobs are kinda boned because of how FFXI works, Hybrids aren't really needed or wanted. SCH and DNC Fail because of this reason.. SCH being a Hybrid BLM/WHM, and DNC Being a Hybrid Buffer/DD, Both fail pretty hard because neither side of their benefits really is worthwehile... SCH just has a place in our hearts cause of Embrava.

COR, However, is a Hybrid Buffer/DD, So it can be done... with the right help.

Long story short, as it stands now, RDM is really in a very sad state, But it can at least put both of its mediocre Qualities to use whenever possible (Mage and Melee Side)... Which is rarely, but still, a good player could easily maintain his Mage duties, and Melee duties, in something like Dynamis... If my brother comes RDM (Relic Trials, Or something), I have him come /DNC, his Requiscat's can easily hit 2k+ Even on some of the DC mobs we fight, It can be good if done right, Hell my SMN (And i have Screenshots here in the Shattersoul Thread) can hit 2.2k~3k+ Shattersouls, even /DNC.

Mages, Red mage specifically to this argument, will never reach the DPS and raw damage output of a real DD, But they can contribute, as long as there's no extreme factors (Breakga, Damaging AoEs you want to avoid, etc) - They can effectively help Make the big thing Die quicker, or in places like Dynamis, Help proc.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Breakga

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Actually 1 advantage to RDM. I will say that Resist Petrify does help at times, many times when I have been a RDM/NIN DD on Qilin I have taken Breakga and just brushed it off so I can continue beating the NM down while everyone else is standing around! :D

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Actually 1 advantage to RDM. I will say that Resist Petrify does help at times, many times when I have been a RDM/NIN DD on Qilin I have taken Breakga and just brushed it off so I can continue beating the NM down while everyone else is standing around! :D

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thats why i use a Fool's during Qilin, makes me sleep and break proof

Yah.. When i fight Qilin, I tend to keep Fools up unless i know im going to be the main tank (Which i avoid at all costs).

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Actually 1 advantage to RDM. I will say that Resist Petrify does help at times, many times when I have been a RDM/NIN DD on Qilin I have taken Breakga and just brushed it off so I can continue beating the NM down while everyone else is standing around! :D

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People let DD rdms in, but leave pup and bst on the curb? There's something fundamentally wrong about that...

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Originally Posted by Theytak

People let DD rdms in, but leave pup and bst on the curb? There's something fundamentally wrong about that...

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It's called a linkshell/friends, obviously shout parties wont unless they're struggling.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

People let DD rdms in, but leave pup and bst on the curb? There's something fundamentally wrong about that...

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I see PUPs let in to DD in Qilin often enough, not all VWNMs but I have seen in quite a few so long as they have Emp & good gear to go with it. BST I don't play much, or know very well on a damage scale so I will not bother trying to guess on that one, but I admit they are rare to see on anything.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

It's called a linkshell/friends, obviously shout parties wont unless they're struggling.

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Mostly correct. When LS members do a VW party, or friends, I normally get to come RDM, however it is not all to uncommon that when I ask to come RDM/NIN for VW, particularly Zilart/Jeuno T3, that I am allowed to go. Most people who know me on Phoenix know I'm a good RDM, Ill back off and do enfeebling procs if they pop up, Ill still proc sword and dagger, and that I can still do good damage.

The reason for RDM/NIN is to assist the BLMs and cover Ninja procs. Ever since SE removed the San line there isn't a reason to bring a pure NIN unless their your friend. What my shell does is have one of our BRD's go /PLD, the other one goes /NIN so we got both of those covered.

Honestly against anything less then T6 it shouldn't matter. We were doing voidwatch spam the other day for gear and Ig-Alima was just melting. Later on did Pil and that was a joke, had to hold damage throughout the fight to get capped red. So honestly damage output isn't a big issue with anything not Prov or T6 / Morta / Bismark. There is plenty of gear that people want so there will be plenty of opportunities.

One of the few places where a Hybrid makes sense is six man dungeon crawls. The ability to replenish MP, heal deal both magic and melee damage, debuff and "tank" all in one job is pretty useful. Currently BLU takes the crown there, mostly due to SE giving BLU's light and dark aoe sleeps while giving RDM absolutely sh!t.

I think secretly... all mages want to melee.

I know I do.

Melee WHM for life. :D

Ain't nothing more satisfying than taking a hammer to your foe's noggin!

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Originally Posted by Mirage

But would you mind doing even finer?

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Of course not. I'm always hoping that WHM will get better melee options.
That aside, it actually has pretty fantastic melee gear available as it stands.

It really doesn't get access to Double / Triple attack gear, but it also doesn't have a lot of use for it outside of Mystic Boon.

Rdm, Blm. Sch if you want to do damage use magic! If your magic sucks then go skill it up
If it still sucks after that .....then find the gear that works for you.
You're not helping the party melee your only making it worse.
When the game first started BLM was and still is the strongest Damage Dealer in the game. NO job can pass it sch come's close but blm has access to more powerful magic.
Rdm can solo pretty decent with a sword you could prob do decent damage if you had the right gear.

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Originally Posted by Ritsuka

Rdm, Blm. Sch if you want to do damage use magic! If your magic sucks then go skill it up
If it still sucks after that .....then find the gear that works for you.
You're not helping the party melee your only making it worse.
When the game first started BLM was and still is the strongest Damage Dealer in the game. NO job can pass it sch come's close but blm has access to more powerful magic.
Rdm can solo pretty decent with a sword you could prob do decent damage if you had the right gear.

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Thanks for a useless, non-helpful reply. Can I suggest if you don't like the idea of a topic, you don't:

1. Click to open it.
2. Reply

I do agree that RDM should not even be classified as a mage, it is a hybrid, it should do well at all of its abilities, but as also pointed out not be the best, before SE nerfed the hell out of it RDM(thanks SE, I was quite capable of getting enmity- gear if I wanted it, I didn't need nor want it as an auto trait with cures) was a really good tank, there is good gear for it, but alas since they screwed over the enmity RDM can't keep hate very well so taking is a thing of the past

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Originally Posted by Theytak

People let DD rdms in, but leave pup and bst on the curb? There's something fundamentally wrong about that...

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If you have a good enough BST, no one should mind watching you and your pet beat stuff up. People don't see BST as a DD, which is hilarious considering it can have one of the highest DPS contributions in the game with their pets.

It'll never happen, but I'd like to see WHM get an A+ in club. Sure, PLD can use most of what WHM can, but seriously, Club is the WHM weapon. People associate Club with WHM.

And I think one of the mages should get an A+ in staff too.

Actually... All weapons should have one job with an A+ in it. Just sayin. Especially when there is only one job that can use that weapon type... Ninja/Katana. :mad:

Hell, I'd be happy if we even got A- in club.

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Originally Posted by wildsprite

I do agree that RDM should not even be classified as a mage

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Originally Posted by wildsprite

classified as a mage

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Originally Posted by wildsprite

mage

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This is pure a player distinction.

Blue Mage isn't even thought of as a back line job. Scholar, despite not having the words "Mage" in their name are basically a backline job. Some jobs have elements for the front line that can be played with or played into.

Just like there are situations where a Beastmaster should stay in the back away from their pet and there are others where it should fight along side its pet, there are situations where many jobs often though of as back line should be sitting with the rest of the group. Not all of these situations are even melee related - for example White Mage has some spells, traits, and abilities that encourage you to sit close to the rest of the party in the thick of things.

So a Blue "Mage" isn't just a "Mage" but it is also a Monsterspell Swordsmen. Red "Mage" isn't just a "Mage" but it is also a Spellsword. White "Mage" isn't just a "Mage" but it is also a Cleric.

No job should be classified as a "Mage" just because of what their class is called.

Personally, I'm a divine demon hunter when I've got hammers in my hands.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

This is pure a player distinction.

Blue Mage isn't even thought of as a back line job. Scholar, despite not having the words "Mage" in their name are basically a backline job. Some jobs have elements for the front line that can be played with or played into.

Just like there are situations where a Beastmaster should stay in the back away from their pet and there are others where it should fight along side its pet, there are situations where many jobs often though of as back line should be sitting with the rest of the group. Not all of these situations are even melee related - for example White Mage has some spells, traits, and abilities that encourage you to sit close to the rest of the party in the thick of things.

So a Blue "Mage" isn't just a "Mage" but it is also a Monsterspell Swordsmen. Red "Mage" isn't just a "Mage" but it is also a Spellsword. White "Mage" isn't just a "Mage" but it is also a Cleric.

No job should be classified as a "Mage" just because of what their class is called.

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RDM and BLU are Hybrid jobs and should be treated as such, that isnt a player distinction its something SE engrained on us from the beginning of each of those jobs

Scholar is a Tactical Magician or at least that is what SE calls it

White Mage has always been a Cleric, everyone I know who knows what a Cleric is has referred to it as such

reverned mail for whm need we say more

i solo alot on my rdm and i love it. i mean if they add stuff great if not thats fine too. i do the best i can do with what they give me. ill tell u what i dont like is how enspells dont effect the attack round after a ws. >.> how many of u notice that?

ps i mean right after the ws

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Originally Posted by zataz

i solo alot on my rdm and i love it. i mean if they add stuff great if not thats fine too. i do the best i can do with what they give me. ill tell u what i dont like is how enspells dont effect the attack round after a ws. >.> how many of u notice that?

ps i mean right after the ws

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same thing with dance, seems to only happen when you get the delay just right and you Melee in the middle of you WS.

Looking through this thread, I see a lot of throwing around of the jobs "Red Mage" and "Blue Mage" without really looking back at how these jobs were more or less created and designed, so I think it's time for all of us to get a little bit of a history lesson, thanks to the fine people at the Final Fantasy Wiki (yeah, I know, lolfacts from an easily-editable wiki, but it's the closest thing I have ^^; ).

Red Mage
Traditionally, Red Mages of yore have been able to do a number of things available to them, from casting both White and Black Magic to being able to go toe-to-toe with even the most gruesome monsters with their readily-available list of swords and predominantly-heavier-than-other-mages armor selection. So, since they can do all of this, they are very clearly the best classes in all of the games they're in, right? Well...yes and no.

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However, their versatility comes at a price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest, and equip some heavy armor, but not all of it.

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The term "jack of all trades, master of none" is thrown around quite a bit in regard to how Red Mages actually work, and in a sense, it's probably the best term to use. A solid Red Mage can be slotted in anywhere where there's a gap. Need a competent healer, and there isn't a White Mage around to throw its potent cures? Snag a Red Mage. Looking for some magic assistance, but there isn't a Black Mage to cast Firaga? Red Mages can throw in Fira on their end, maybe even to the point where the Red Mage in question can cast it twice in succession due to Dualcast (which I still think should be implemented in FFXI, it would really bring a spark back to RDMs again without overpowering them). Hell, can't find someone who can deal copious amounts of physical damage? Red Mages can use swords pretty efficiently. They can take a few hits before going down, too. Red Mages are not *specialists*, but their versatility is what makes them desirable, because while they can't do what other classes can, they can still hold their own by being able to do so many things that would require a combination of 3 separate classes.
In Final Fantasy XI's case, it really isn't all that different. Yes, SE has predominantly thrown them into a more "back-line" category with their spell and equipment listing (and for that matter, so has a loooooooooooooot of the player base, myself included in a way), but that does not mean that they can't throw down in the thick of things. They can still throw out fairly decent melee numbers while also having the ability to step back and sling magic around. It's not going to be as effective as, say, a White Mage throwing around his or her curing spells, or a Black Mage nuking down a magically-weak monster, but it will still be effective. The main thing that the players, and the Red Mages themselves, need to learn is when to go from one thing to another. They need to know when they need to put on their swords, step up to the plate, and swing away. Likewise, they need to know when to step back and let the magical aspect of them shine forth. Just because you are a master of none does not mean you need to have all these new things, then complain when a more specialized job gets something that makes sense in a specialization aspect. All it means is that you need to prepare yourself for any situation, with the spells and the gear that you have, and react accordingly.

Blue Mage
Traditionally speaking, Blue Mages have always been the odd man out in any game that they're in.

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Blue Mages, as their name implies, focus on Blue Magic, a special subset of Magic that allows them to use attacks otherwise exclusive to enemies.

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As above states, they have a really odd placement in any party, regardless of where they are. And yet, Blue Mages are probably the most fun to train up, due to their completely varied versatility in learning their Blue Magic. Their spells will always be able to surprise and astonish both friend and foe, as well as even producing completely varied results.
There's another thing that a lot of people tend to forget about the Blue Mage:

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Beyond this, Blue Mages vary in equipment and physical prowess. They are not as weak as other Mage classes in terms of attack or defense, and are usually capable fighters. Of course, their true strength is their magic.

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That first sentence catches my eye the most, which basically says that no two Blue Mages are alike on the physical side. You can't really compare Strago Magus to Khimari Ronso, or Quistis Trepe to Quina Quen, because the only real similarities are due to the fact that they can not only learn abilities from the monsters they fight and slay, but turn around and deliver them in an equally, if not greater, effect upon other foes they face.
Final Fantasy XI's Blue Mages seem to continue this very odd trend. While they may have very great (A-, compared to a Paladin's A+) proficiency in using a sword, their physical armor tends to hold back on just about the same type of gear a Red Mage can use. Also on the forefront are a Blue Mage's stats. Go ahead, do a comparison on the FFXI Stat Calculator between a no-subbed Hume Blue Mage and a no-subbed Hume Red Mage.
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Surprising, isn't it? While both classes have the exact same HP and MP, the Red Mage ultimately pulls ahead in all but VIT and AGI, while the Blue Mage's stats remain *dead even throughout*. And yet, Blue Mages are almost universally shown to be in a more physical light, while being able to cast magic even at the front lines. Why is this? Because of Blue Magic. It is that magic that gives a Blue Mage not only a physical leg up on Red Mages, but is also a source of their versatility, in a way.
On paper, Blue Mages can do virtually anything that almost any job can do. Hell, looking at the first 20 levels of a Blue Mage's career, they can give themselves 50% more defense, give themselves or their entire party a (fairly weak, but still noticeable) HP boost, debuff monsters in ways that no other job will even think about until later levels, play crowd control via putting monsters around them to sleep, all while dealing plenty of damage to their foes. But in practice, they cannot do this.
SE was smart enough to realize that, if Blue Mages had access to all of their spells, they would be the most broken job in the game, so they limited us in two ways: the set point limitation, where every spell costs a certain amount of spells to set for usage, and ultimately limiting the number of spells we can set up period. Those two restrictions cut down on a Blue Mage's versatility to the point where it, too, has to choose what it ultimately needs to do. Do we run in, swords-a-swinging, pumping out WS-comparable damage with our physical spells? Or do we step back and support with our fairly-lackluster-yet-still-useful list of debuffs, nukes, and cures? The difference between how Red Mage reacts and how Blue Mage reacts differs: while Red Mages can just suit up to the change when it happens, Blue Mages need to take time to set themselves up correctly, so they almost have to try and predict what's going to happen *well* before it actually happens, which is a bad thing when something completely unexpected happens out of nowhere.

Ultimately, however, it really depends on how a player chooses to prepare and set himself, as well as how the general populace learns to see things in turn with the respective jobs. You want to learn how to melee effectively on Red Mage? Awesome, more power to you...just learn when it's appropriate to turn the dial back and focus more on the magic. Really, the same goes to any melee back-liner out there; WHMs, BLMs, SMNs, even BRDs and SCHs. It's possible, and if you can pull it off, all the more power to you, I have no qualms over you doing things that are fun and exciting (believe me, you haven't seen anything until you've seen a SCH single-handedly tank Poisonhand Gnadgad in Campaign...and survive). Hell, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a lot more "back-line" jobs step up and get to swinging, as well as gear that supports that ideal. But when the chips are down and it's time to do the role everyone expects you to do, don't sit there and say "no way, I'm playing how I want to play", because that ultimately creates disastrous results. Learn your job first. Toy around with the extra stuff later. =)

Isn't the term "melee mage" kinda oxymoronic?

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Originally Posted by Lisotte

Isn't the term "melee mage" kinda oxymoronic?

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No, it kinda isn't.

Gandalf meleed too! Now and then.

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Originally Posted by Slvr_Stryker

Also on the forefront are a Blue Mage's stats. Go ahead, do a comparison on the FFXI Stat Calculator between a no-subbed Hume Blue Mage and a no-subbed Hume Red Mage.
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Surprising, isn't it? While both classes have the exact same HP and MP, the Red Mage ultimately pulls ahead in all but VIT and AGI, while the Blue Mage's stats remain *dead even throughout*. And yet, Blue Mages are almost universally shown to be in a more physical light, while being able to cast magic even at the front lines.

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Have you ever even set spells on Blue Mage?

I actually have a relevant quote that sums up what I feel about this:

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Originally Posted by Slvr_Stryker

Learn your job first.

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