Oh by the way, pet TH gear?

I think they have acted disgracefully by doing this. They say they looked at the discussions for and against the pets TH and decided that for balance pets did not need any more TH. But what the forget is that the pro pet TH camp were muted because of the statement that the TH could be made up with gear that would be released. If they had said from the start they they were not going to produce this gear then the pro pet TH argument would have been more vociferous.

The fact remains that when a BST calls a THF type pet they should expect to get a reasonable level of TH just as when a PUP summons a BLM type automaton they expect it to be able to nuke or with a WHM automaton they expect it to have reasonable curing ability. What people tend to forget is that it is not the BST that has the TH it is the pet and if the pet is a THF it should fall into a similar category (although slightly lower) than a THF player in the rankings they gave for TH.

It is similar to a situation where a player dual boxes with a mule character, if you level your mule as a THF and you dual box with that mule you would be a bit put out if the TH of your mule was nerfed because you were dual boxing.

SE really need to seriously look at where they want BST to be, up to level 75 it is played one way with BST having to charm mobs to be effective, then suddenly post 75 we have to change tactics and start using jug pets So in reality there is no point in levelling the job the normal way, you may as well burn the job to at least level 76 then start learning it. Majority of the skills up to then will not be used after that.

Have they mentioned yet if any of the mobs in the upcoming new expansion areas will be charmable? If not then they have totally sidelined BST and changed it from what was originally intended. If that is the case they need to totally rework the idea of BST and its abilities from scratch as a jug pet user and not a charmer and give the pets the abilities of the job they are otherwise the pets just become generic with little difference between them.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

No it's not, it's precisely the same issue. It sounds like you're not aware that BST can also sub THF to get TH3.

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I'm assuming this part was a typo given that BST cannot wear an augmented Taru sash w/ the TH augment since your next two sentences after this mentioned BST getting TH2. Not pointing out to knock you or anything because like I said was most likely a typo given what proceeded the above statement, but rather simply pointing it out for clarity since this issue on the whole tends to be contentious and people might glance and oversimplify what can and what can't be done.

In all fairness Zhornne also made the same mistake when mentioning TH3 followed by mentioning DNC/THF since they also can't wear the sash. Of course there is the likely possibility I am overlooking yet another piece of multi-job TH gear OR I am simply assuming (incorrectly) the discussion on the last page between the two of you involved the sash in which case my apologies to the both of you.

Not a typo, just a mistake on my side (I don't even own a taru sash myself, gave up tryin to get one). I just thought even jobs like SAM, NIN and DNC could equip it, of course I was wrong.
The overall logic of what I was tryin to say still stands though, if anything it's even stronger.

Wether or not SE failed I can't tell, but I'm pretty sure what they were trying to do is "balancing" the difficulty/efficiency with which jobs can solo Dynamis.
BST back then, had an extremely favourable ratio in this. It was stronger, easier to use even with average gear, high average amount of coins thanks to TH3 etc.
It's no surprise that a lot of people levelled BST only to solofarm dynamis and, indeed, those days dyna areas were packed full with BSTs soloing stuff. Dunno if the situations has changed now, haven't done dyna myself since february.

Even more than I said in my previous post, I think SE were trying to balance things by letting players choose between jobs with higher TH rate but lower efficiency at proccing/soloing (the jobs who can get TH3 with /THF and taru sash).
Other jobs who can proc and solo very easily but with reduced TH (DNC/THF) and then jobs who can solo even more easily, but have a furtherly reduced TH rate (BSTs).
Yes, I'm sure this was their plan, altough I'm not really sure it worked the way they meant it to be when you think about PUP/THF doing WS procs or THF/DNC doing JA procs... but yeah, I'm sure this is what they wanted to do.
Did they succeed? Did they fail? I'm leaning for the second, altough probably community members are overall happier than the whiners in this thread might suggest.


Allow me to elaborate.
Community wise, I'm afraid the only people who really got hurt and felt tricked by the "false promise" of Pet:TH item are those people who cared more about BST and had the job already levelled before the Dyna reform.
Most of the rest of the people were probably happy about the nerf and rejoiced, because they hated BST soloers "stealing their mobs".
We can divide them into two groups:
1) Bandwagons - those who had levelled BST only because attracted by the efficiency level of dyna solo farming. These people simply moved to the next Dyna bandwagon job.
2) Haters - people who were soloing, dualboxing or lowmanning dyna with other jobs and hated BST soloers because of the competition they implied. These people surely rejoiced about the nerf we BSTs received.

So yeah, if we look at this from a "majority" point of view, SE probably made the majority of FFXI players happy, making only a small minority of BST-lovers highly disappointed and frustrated.

Total disgrace of a response from SE.... I guess they were pretty miffed that Beast with TH3 were able to farm decent amount of dyna currency, effectively killing their CHEAP WAY to add time sink into the game. I think this is why they refuse to revamped mythic weapons. Empyrean showed them how much fun, easy and enjoyable they can be, fast to acquire and takes not much of an effort. I have a feeling that the next expansion is a total bust, and it will take them 5 years to complete the content. Unless they plan to create the Abyssea Golden Years Version 2.0. - which in this case I am all for it.

In a way it's nice to see such a barefaced lie. It proves people's suspicions re: the way this game works to be, if not objectively true, then at least well founded. It's just a shame that Beastmasters had to suffer for that point to be made.

Pretty appalling stuff, really. Kudos to the guy posted the quote in question almost immediately.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

lol, SE staff can't reread posted threads, you did promise gear.... Recheck your history!

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You idiots read anything as a promise. They never said:

"We promise to give you Pet TH gear."

The post stated: "By using..."

That doesn't mean "we promise to give you the gear." it means if and/or when they introduce it, it will enhance it just like using Pet: (attribute) enhances thing, it wasn't a promise..Unless it's an American thing to read everything as a promise, excuse me.

The devs really need to decide where BST stands among the jobs of Vana'diel. Either make us a worthy DD so we can legitimately compete for a spot with WAR/SAM/MNK, etc. or let us be the ultimate solo master who relies on no one and give us our damned Treasure Hunter back. Quit balancing us and the other pet jobs into the oblivion of mediocrity.

Good BSTs, SMNs, and PUPs pour a ton of effort into their jobs, and great ones deserve a friggin' medal for everything they endure. But, the effort:reward ratio on pet jobs is absolutely abysmal compared to pretty much everything else. Other jobs can put in a ton of work too, but they usually have something to show for it at the end of the day. What do we get? Nerfs, more BALANCE!! than anyone else, and lolJOB from the community as a whole. Quit being afraid of us actually being good! Let us shine some! Lord knows you guys aren't scared to overpower certain other jobs that will remain nameless.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Other jobs can put in a ton of work too, but they usually have something to show for it

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Just like good BST/PUP/SMNs are well known and actually looked up to for all the hardwork and effort they put into being good, no other job gets "more rewards for the same amount of work and effort" now you're just making BS up, everyone is rewarded the same in the game, hell you can solo things easily as pet jobs whereas a lot of jobs can't even dream to solo without a ton of medicines/brew (in abyssea.)

Did you forget about that, Ms. Summoner?

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What do we get?

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No pet job has been nerfed in a drastic way compared to DRGs getting nerfed to the point of not being wanted until SE "rectified it" later on, remember the TP floor change? Yeah I still seen SMNs and BSTs in parties end-game but where were the DRGs? Oh that's right "you're worthless level a real job."

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and lolJOB from the community as a whole

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Never seen "lolsmn/lolbst" in the fashion I've seen "loldrg" and I'm sure you've played long enough to realize this. I've seen "lolpup" because people didn't know how to play it or push it into prime and the main "lol" was because they weren't H2H masters like MNK, which people for some reason expected them to be on par with MNK's DPS.

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Lord knows you guys aren't scared to overpower certain other jobs that will remain nameless.

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Job. Not jobs, Job. The only job that ever gets overpowered is Samurai. Go play Dark Knight some time, then go cry about your job being "balanced out".

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

I think I'm missing something important from your post.
Yeah of course BST can go /THF and get TH3, but how is he going to proc JA mobs without /DNC and wielding a single weapon and a shield?

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No, you're right, I messed up. I wasn't talking about Dynamis, even though you mentioned it specifically. But if it's about Dyna, BST is with no shadow of a doubt the last job that has a right to complain.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

DNC/THF is not really a big difference compared to... to what? /NIN? Provides no additional damage than /THF.
You mean /WAR maybe? DA is nice but doesn't stack with Saberdance, +10 attack is nice, Berserk is cool 3mins every 5.

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Berserk is more than cool, it's extraordinary. Why would any job sub /NIN for anything? Abyssea procs? To most people that sub died with the last level cap increase.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

BST gets TH1 for free? Bzzzt. I'm sorry that's incorrect. BSTs have to pay gil for it each and every time.

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There's several kinds of costs. Gil wasn't the one I was referring to.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

How sociopathic of you. What is it about a generally low-tier job getting "shafted" that makes you feel good?

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Low-tier? How so? Because it doesn't get invited to endgame events? That's kind of a case in point of why I hate most BST players. They think they're entitled to everything but think very little of what they have. BST is a money-making machine on this game, unlike any other single job. For very little effort they get money stuffed up their butts. In addition to that they're great soloers and can participate in pet strategies to take down hard mobs with very little risk. Many people would find that imbalanced. Just because BST isn't gladly seen in endgame setups it doesn't make the job low-tier at all.

Not that I need a reason to hate people, but since you asked for one: their mentality upsets me. Both from the old days, when they were competing with EXP parties for mobs as well as now when they think they own anything and everything they lay their eyes on. Like Dynamis, where they think it's perfectly fine to hoard mobs while you wander around waiting for repops and if you do dare to take one they think they're allowed to get upset. Just like when they take hours to kill Abyssea NMs just to show they can solo them and afterwards think that shows they have skill (or something similarly delusional), while everyone else just waits for them to get out of their way. Most BST I've met are selfish and quite often arrogant. That's why I hate them.

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Originally Posted by Alpheus

I'm assuming this part was a typo given that BST cannot wear an augmented Taru sash w/ the TH augment since your next two sentences after this mentioned BST getting TH2. Not pointing out to knock you or anything because like I said was most likely a typo given what proceeded the above statement, but rather simply pointing it out for clarity since this issue on the whole tends to be contentious and people might glance and oversimplify what can and what can't be done.

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You're quite correct, I did mean TH2. Thanks for the correction.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

But, the effort:reward ratio on pet jobs is absolutely abysmal compared to pretty much everything else.

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Again, if you're talking about Dynamis you're completely out of your mind with this statement. Other pet jobs may complain, but BST most definitely can not.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Greetings BSTs,

We received positive and negative feedback about the adjustment of Treasure Hunter for Dipper Yuly and Faithful Falcorr, and we would like to let you know that this was to keep the overall balance amongst other jobs and their Treasure Hunter effects. After thorough review, we are starting to see the results we intended to meet, so there are no plans to make any further Treasure Hunter adjustments to these pets.

We definitely understand the intense discussions these changes have brought about, especially regarding obtaining currency through Dynamis and Beastmaster's qualities, but please understand that the these adjustments were necessary after reviewing the drop results.



There was no promise to create gear that would counter the reduction of treasure hunter on beastmaster pets Dipper Yuly and Faithful Falcorr.

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This community rep did not do a good job at conveying this information. The rep knows about this post:

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Originally Posted by Camate

As an adjustment to the balance of Treasure Hunter at level 99, the below pets will have their Treasure Hunter effect changed to Treasure Hunter I.

-Dipper Yuly
-Faithful Falcorr
※These pets will have a base of Treasure Hunter I, but by using equipment that has “Pet: Treasure Hunter +” the effect will become stronger.

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So to simply give a terse statement that their was no promise - without addressing the prior post in some way is disingenuous.

Clearly, this post from Camate was specifically talking about Dipper & Falcor, and the introduction of equipment to boost their TH.

What makes me a bit tweaked is that the post from Okipuit is not honest. What he should have said (assuming this is the case) is that after evaluating the drop data, the development team has decided not to introduce new items to boost pet TH, as they feel its is strong enough at current levels. If that was the last sentence in his post, people would have complained yes of course, but at least there would not have been the feeling of political double speak, where words are carefully parsed for select meanings.

Exactly, had he have said:

Quote:

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These pets will have a base of Treasure Hunter I, but we are currently looking into adding equipment that has “Pet: Treasure Hunter +” so that the effect will become stronger.

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Then it wasn't a promise, as it was posted however was as good as a promise. However, it seems it was simply used so they could argue it's been positive from the BST pro and con camps for the nerf due to the pro crowd believing gear would be added so not kicking up such a fuss.

What I'll imagine will come will be something to cover them like: Mistranslation, the post actually said "We've decided not to add it"

But this will be just a cover for the blatant lie just posted.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

You idiots read anything as a promise. They never said:

"We promise to give you Pet TH gear."

The post stated: "By using..."

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I hope English isn't your first language... If you read what was quoted about Pet: TH+ gear you would read it as a promise. If this:

※These pets will have a base of Treasure Hunter I, but by using equipment that has “Pet: Treasure Hunter +” the effect will become stronger.

Said this:

※These pets will have a base of Treasure Hunter I, but we might look into using equipment that has “Pet: Treasure Hunter +” the effect will become stronger.

Or something similar it wouldn't have been taken as a promise. Note the use of "might" means it isn't intended to be read as a fact/promise and the player base would be foolish to do so.

In the English language the word promise doesn't have to be used for it to be something that can be taken as a promise, just FYI.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

I hope English isn't your first language... If you read what was quoted about Pet: TH+ gear you would read it as a promise. If this:

※These pets will have a base of Treasure Hunter I, but by using equipment that has “Pet: Treasure Hunter +” the effect will become stronger.

Said this:

※These pets will have a base of Treasure Hunter I, but we might look into using equipment that has “Pet: Treasure Hunter +” the effect will become stronger.

Or something similar it wouldn't have been taken as a promise. Note the use of "might" means it isn't intended to be read as a fact/promise and the player base would be foolish to do so.

In the English language the word promise doesn't have to be used for it to be something that can be taken as a promise, just FYI.

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Quoted for truth, I could have just liked it, but it doesn't do enough justice to this post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elexia

You idiots read anything as a promise. They never said:

"We promise to give you Pet TH gear."

The post stated: "By using..."

That doesn't mean "we promise to give you the gear." it means if and/or when they introduce it, it will enhance it just like using Pet: (attribute) enhances thing, it wasn't a promise..Unless it's an American thing to read everything as a promise, excuse me.

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Once again, why bring it up at all then? There is no point to bring it up at all within the context of that post other than to lead (or more aptly mislead) their clients into thinking this gear would be introduced.

@Arcon -Way to paint everyone with a broad stroke, I could say the same things about the arrogance of PLDs, but that doesn't make it true or relevant. I probably don't need to anyway, because your post does it for me.

BTW, my friend pointed out seeing a PLD holding 10 mobs in Dynamis using Aeolian Edge to proc. I submit we should start a campaign to nerf PLD, because clearly they are overpowered and ruining dynamis for everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Phogg

Once again, why bring it up at all then? There is no point to bring it up at all within the context of that post other than to lead (or more aptly mislead) their clients into thinking this gear would be introduced.

@Arcon -Way to paint everyone with a broad stroke, I could say the same things about the arrogance of PLDs, but that doesn't make it true or relevant. I probably don't need to anyway, because your post does it for me.

BTW, my friend pointed out seeing a PLD holding 10 mobs in Dynamis using Aeolian Edge to proc. I submit we should start a campaign to nerf PLD, because clearly they are overpowered and ruining dynamis for everyone else.

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That's a terrible example considering that it's the story of 1 well-geared PLD vs a ton of perle bandwagon BSTs. (the pld doesn't get TH by the way).

I don't care if all BST players aren't as retarded as the ones I run into, but I've met so many assholes that play the job, that they've just ruined the job for me and now I'm just automatically happy anytime anything bad is announced for BST.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

I hope English isn't your first language...

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It isn't, it's my first "universal" language.

Quote:

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In the English language the word promise doesn't have to be used for it to be something that can be taken as a promise, just FYI.

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This is why it didn't make sense, because I didn't see the word "promise" used at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric

That's a terrible example considering that it's the story of 1 well-geared PLD vs a ton of perle bandwagon BSTs. (the pld doesn't get TH by the way).

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Just pointing out they would or rather should be on PLD/THF if they're edge proc farming. It's still a combo that takes time to build up and is inferior to BST/DNC from what I've read (could be wrong though) so ya still a terrible example.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elexia

This is why it didn't make sense, because I didn't see the word "promise" used at all.

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The way it is worded is considered a statement. Statements are taken as factual or as a promise.
For example:

I will go in to work tomorrow.

Is read the exact same as:

I promise to go to work tomorrow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric

That's a terrible example considering that it's the story of 1 well-geared PLD vs a ton of perle bandwagon BSTs. (the pld doesn't get TH by the way).

I don't care if all BST players aren't as retarded as the ones I run into, but I've met so many assholes that play the job, that they've just ruined the job for me and now I'm just automatically happy anytime anything bad is announced for BST.

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Because that's a mature attitude.

Also, how do you know how they were geared? Maybe they were a perle wearing PLD? The main point remains, anyone can be a prick in this game, and their job has nothing to do with that.

Just ask any career BST who had their exp camps invaded by normy parties back in the day (despite setting their search to indicate their camp location, something us BSTs used to do to help not waste the time of another BST that might travel to that camp and find it occupied, clearly we are all pricks), you think those people cared about the lowly BST? No, because there were so few they didn't need to care. They would not do that to another party, at least not often, but it happened regularly to BSTs.

I'm a very well geared BST, I even waste inventory on my charm set hoping one day I might be able to play my job again in some semblance of its original style. I've been playing the job for about 8+ years now. We finally have ONE THING we can say we are good at, and everyone wants to take that ONE THING away because, ironically, NON-BSTs are exploiting it.....usually the same people who get some sort of twisted joy out of bashing BSTs, which is not a new thing, its been happening for the entirety of the game's existence.

Which is why I find this all both absurd and amusing at the same time. Before the dynamis change, we were gimps that should be overlooked in any end game content. Now, just because of one thing, we are suddenly overpowered and need to be nerfed, when in reality the job has not changed at all, dynamis changed. My BST is stuck at 96 because I just use it for fun anymore and to play around with my Octave club. We're so incredibly overpowered that I almost never use my favorite job in favor of my other, more useful options....

Find something more rational to be mad about. Despite my top notch gear and love of the job, I actually farm dynamis as THF, and I get by just fine regardless of how many BSTs are around. Not sure what everyone else's problem is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Just pointing out they would or rather should be on PLD/THF if they're edge proc farming. It's still a combo that takes time to build up and is inferior to BST/DNC from what I've read (could be wrong though) so ya still a terrible example.

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How is it a terrible example? There is competition for mobs in dynamis, and people mostly get mad because BSTs can hold multiple mobs. Well, so can PLD. What exactly is the difference? Their kill speed doesn't make any difference, what people get upset about is the holding of mobs, hence the example.

So that I don't simply appear to be defending BST without offering a potential solution outside of nerfing BST, the solution is clear.....simply reduce the proc rate of JA's in dynamis, or increase the proc rate of magic and WSs. This would allow other jobs to be more useful then the standard of whateverjob/dnc. Problem solved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Berserk is more than cool, it's extraordinary. Why would any job sub /NIN for anything? Abyssea procs? To most people that sub died with the last level cap increase.

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It certainly is awesome, and possibly the only valid option for a DNC who wants to be a DD. I still sub /NIN if I'm soloing something that requires shadows.
And anyway, I was still talking from a solo-dynamis perspective.
I usually go /THF or /00 with my DNC in Dyna, dunno why you'd want to go /WAR if you're soloing but that's just me hey, and it's no secret I'm a particularly noob DNC :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phogg

How is it a terrible example? There is competition for mobs in dynamis, and people mostly get mad because BSTs can hold multiple mobs. Well, so can PLD. What exactly is the difference? Their kill speed doesn't make any difference, what people get upset about is the holding of mobs, hence the example.

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There isn't competition for mobs during WS times for a given family. Because it takes a PLD with Ochain to do it solo. BST just needs some axes Falcorr or Yuly Jugs and some Pet Food, all of which are on the AH where Ochain is not. That's why it's a terrible example.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phogg

@Arcon -Way to paint everyone with a broad stroke, I could say the same things about the arrogance of PLDs, but that doesn't make it true or relevant. I probably don't need to anyway, because your post does it for me.

BTW, my friend pointed out seeing a PLD holding 10 mobs in Dynamis using Aeolian Edge to proc. I submit we should start a campaign to nerf PLD, because clearly they are overpowered and ruining dynamis for everyone else.

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What Arcon says is 100% true regardless.

BST is an extremely powerful job that is overlooked for many reasons. First and foremost it goes back to the 75 cap days where BST was shunned because of common thought that their pet -still- counted as a party member and brought down party exp. Since then, people avoided BST like the plague.

Even today with level 99 BSTs, people don't know what they're actually capable of in a party situation since two scenarios have been clearly made over the years: BST soloers that don't give a shit about other players, and your normal players that never seen a BST party with anyone. BST is a VERY capable party job whose pet can easily dish out more damage than your typical player nowadays. Also the BST themselves have access to very good DD gear, causing them to actually be able to do decent damage on their own. This is further augmented that then their hate can be transfered to the pet. Jugs every five minutes, or recharming every 15 seconds, for disposable HP and hate. BST is clearly a very capable job and any serious BST will tell you that they're nothing to laugh at.

Only recently BST was given TH3 that was comparable to an ungeared level 75 THF and BST players are now complaining that they've fallen from grace now. BST is still one of only jobs in the game that naturally gets TH1, this gives the job a significant "one-up" compared to the other classes which normally has to sacrifice their subclass from a design standpoint. I don't know RNG enough to know how exactly Bounty Shot works, so I won't comment on that, but BLU is the only other job that can naturally get TH1 as well.

People will complain that the augmented Tarutaru Sash makes half of the jobs in the game have equal TH as BST and BLU. That's very true, but this doesn't make any of these jobs better at THing than BST. Right now BST is now on equal grounds with MNK, WHM, BLM, RDM, PLD, BRD, RNG, SMN, PUP, and SCH. Though techically BLU can now reach TH2 with TTS, but not many people complain that they have an unfair advantage.

Just like any online game, there're going to be changes to make things more balanced. It's just that the FFXI community is too fixated on the word "balance" and focused their hatred on Tanaka. {Insert Tanaka/Absolute Virtue Jokes Here} Job classes, gear, monsters, prices, spells, and anything else you can think of will always change over time just because the game is constantly being reassessed because of how players are handling the game. A few months back, it was obvious that BST was dominating the Dynamis scene and everyone saw the TH nerf coming.

This is my personal opinion that a lot of non-BSTs share. The current BST player base is looked as a selfish mob that doesn't care about screwing over other players. It was commonplace to see BSTs soloing two-plus monsters at any given time in Dynamis. It's common to see BSTs kill stealing from other players if anyone else tries mimicing them by having more than one monster on them. Also common, BSTs would become very vocal if you tried kill stealing from them. The stereotype is there not because people just felt like saying it. It's there because a good portion of the population is that way that the stereotype can be made and that so many people can nod in agreement that it's that way.

You can argue that ochain PLDs can "cleave" Dynamis mobs and monopolize just as much, if not more, than BSTs. This is very true and it is a less done Dynamis currency farming method. The thing is that PLDs are doing nothing different that a BST isn't doing. They're holding multiple monsters at once, but only one of them is actually claimed. Both the PLDs and BSTs aren't doing anything that is breaking any game rules. They're just doing things that the player base feels that are breaking an unspoken courtesy rulebook. Anyone could still go up to the PLD, or BST, and steal back any non-red-claimed monster. No one is entitled to more than one monster, or to even claim that only their job can do so-and-so like having TH3.

It has already been complained in the past that ochain is "too powerful" and it should be nerfed. In the Dynamis scene, "cleaving" has been nerfed once already against proccing, but it hasn't seriously done anything against these PLDs is true. Give it time and maybe another proccing change will happen.


Truth be told... This is the same way a lot of BSTs were back at 75 days. It's just that today BSTs are more capable and had the biggest farming niche available. Today you just have a lot of vocal BSTs because suddenly BST was given some love. "Some love" is such an understatement at that.

BSTs today have gotten so much, but it's never enough. The grass is always greener.... I've been a BST ever since the 75 days when they were joked about. I've also leveled almost every job this game has to offer since the 75 days. When I'm comparing jobs, BST before was already a very solid job. Today it's really a monster. No pun intended. Sure I'm sad that BST has lost 2 levels of TH, but I think the job is still fine the way it is today.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zagen

There isn't competition for mobs during WS times for a given family. Because it takes a PLD with Ochain to do it solo. BST just needs some axes Falcorr or Yuly Jugs and some Pet Food, all of which are on the AH where Ochain is not. That's why it's a terrible example.

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Again, the example is related to people bashing BST and calling for nerfs because they hold mobs, not the efficacy of farming as PLD. It's a systemic issue within dynamis+procs, not a BST job issue.

Given that there is less competition during the WS and magic proc times doesn't it make more sense to make those other camp times more viable by increasing the proc rate for WSs and magic? Suddenly RDM/anything becomes more viable, DD/nin becomes more viable, SMN/rdm becomes more viable, etc. Everyone loves to claim BST is weak compared to literally every other DD job in nearly every other facet of the game, so if that is true, then all those other jobs should be capable of outpacing a BST in dynamis, its just that their ability to do so is limited by the proc system, not the other BSTs.

Greetings,

Please understand that the original message that I posted was not intended as a guarantee that we will be adding this kind of gear in the future. This was meant to only be an example of how the pet’s Treasure Hunter could be enhanced to a higher level. While this does not rule out any possibility of adding equipment like this in the future, it was never a promise that it would be implemented.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

You idiots read anything as a promise. They never said:

"We promise to give you Pet TH gear."

The post stated: "By using..."

That doesn't mean "we promise to give you the gear." it means if and/or when they introduce it, it will enhance it just like using Pet: (attribute) enhances thing, it wasn't a promise..Unless it's an American thing to read everything as a promise, excuse me.

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In context, it was a promise. And the slap at Americans was completely unnecessary, and as an American, I am offended by your post. I will, however, explain to you why people are so outraged by what's happened since you seem to be unable to get it.

We Americans have in our history a notorious con artist and and circus owner named P. T. Barnum. At one traveling circus he ran, he put an egret (a type of bird) on display; there was a sign directing visitors to this attraction, which read "This way to the egret". At the exit to the room with the egret, there was a very similar sign reading "This way to the egress". Now, the word "egress" sounds like it could mean "female egret" in the same way that we have words such as "actress" for a female actor. It doesn't. It's actually an obscure word for "exit". When people followed this sign, expecting to see another exotic bird, they would leave the circus grounds--only to find themselves charged full price if they wanted to get back in. I'm sure that Barnum blamed the victims of this trick for being "stupid" much like how you are doing now.

Barnum's "egress" con is a prime example of how you can speak the literal truth and still be a damn dirty liar. Human languages are inherently imprecise and incomplete and a single sentence may potentially convey an unlimited range of possible meanings. Some of these are the exact opposite of the sentence's literal meaning. It's the context that makes all the difference. When a speaker creates an utterance intended to create in the minds of the listener an impression at variance with what the speaker believes to be true, deception has been perpetrated. Semantic game-playing makes no moral difference; if you say something that you know has been misinterpreted by the listener in a way favorable to you, it is up to you to correct it or at least disavow the mistaken interpretation. If you do not, then you have lied.

Now, the FFXI development team has the resources of a multibillion dollar international corporation behind them; there are numerous people working for Square-Enix who are supposed to be devoted to making sure these kind of "misunderstandings" don't take place. And in fact, on other issues we have had official statements from Camate and crew saying, "No, you misunderstand, what we meant was _____." What can we conclude from this? Either the reps were lying and the dev team was silent about TH pet gear (quite unlikely! Don't be mad, guys, just mentioning this for logical completeness), the dev team was lying at the time, the dev team is lying now, or the dev team just plain forgot about the original statement and we deserve an apology.

As for the issue of whether BST pets should have TH or not, well, all I have to say about it is this: the dev team has made it very clear that to them, boosting item drops rather than (say) doing damage is a very big part of what THF is about. If they didn't want to give us a pet that boosted item drops, then they should not have made those pets THF job to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Just like good BST/PUP/SMNs are well known and actually looked up to for all the hardwork and effort they put into being good, no other job gets "more rewards for the same amount of work and effort" now you're just making BS up, everyone is rewarded the same in the game, hell you can solo things easily as pet jobs whereas a lot of jobs can't even dream to solo without a ton of medicines/brew (in abyssea.)

Did you forget about that, Ms. Summoner?

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The rewards I was talking about were not gear and gil. They were access and acceptance. You can work your ass off on all of these jobs and still not be considered good enough to stand in the doorway of endgame. I could say that any ally or LS leader that would turn his nose up at a well geared and played BST/SMN/PUP is an uneducated idiot, but sadly they aren't 100% wrong in turning us down the way they do. I wish they were. I wish we did rule the parse or have irreplaceable buffs/abilities, but the vast majority of the time we simply don't.

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No pet job has been nerfed in a drastic way compared to DRGs getting nerfed to the point of not being wanted until SE "rectified it" later on, remember the TP floor change? Yeah I still seen SMNs and BSTs in parties end-game but where were the DRGs? Oh that's right "you're worthless level a real job."

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Really? I saw way more DRGs than BST and SMN. I guess it depends on what you mean by "parties end-game." HNM? I sure as heck didn't see BST or SMN fighting wyrms, behemoths, or turtles. Dynamis? It seemed like bringing a pet job was a cardinal sin. Sky? Not unless you were in a pet LS. Sea? Same as sky except maybe for Jailer of Faith. Limbus? Not a chance. Salvage? The cell system was not friendly to BST and especially SMN. Einherjar? SMN maybe after Alex was released. XP parties? It wasn't BST or SMN getting those spots unless it was a SMN burn. YMMV, but what I saw isn't what you saw.

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Never seen "lolsmn/lolbst" in the fashion I've seen "loldrg" and I'm sure you've played long enough to realize this. I've seen "lolpup" because people didn't know how to play it or push it into prime and the main "lol" was because they weren't H2H masters like MNK, which people for some reason expected them to be on par with MNK's DPS.

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I've seen all of the above and still do.

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Job. Not jobs, Job. The only job that ever gets overpowered is Samurai.

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Hmm. It's subjective. Some would say WAR and MNK are overpowered. Some would say WHM is overpowered or perhaps other healers are underpowered compared to it.

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Go play Dark Knight some time, then go cry about your job being "balanced out".

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What makes you think I don't sympathize with DRK's situation? Just because I complain about my job doesn't mean I don't feel for yours and want you to have fun and see improvements.

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Originally Posted by Valkrist

This is my personal opinion that a lot of non-BSTs share. The current BST player base is looked as a selfish mob that doesn't care about screwing over other players. It was commonplace to see BSTs soloing two-plus monsters at any given time in Dynamis. It's common to see BSTs kill stealing from other players if anyone else tries mimicing them by having more than one monster on them. Also common, BSTs would become very vocal if you tried kill stealing from them. The stereotype is there not because people just felt like saying it. It's there because a good portion of the population is that way that the stereotype can be made and that so many people can nod in agreement that it's that way.

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This part of your post is where I take issue. Everything by nature in dynamis is competitive. THFs will flee to a mob to take the one you just pulled your weapon out to attack and and bully it in front of your face. MNKs will come out of nowhere to chi blast the same. To claim only BSTs act competitively is disingenuous at best. There is no difference, everyone competes for the mobs. People just point at BST because they see them most frequently in dynamis. That is why people hold that stereotype, not because its valid, but because it is what they are most frequently exposed to.

The irony is, what they truly want, is for THEIR job to be more powerful than a BST in dynamis. Right? That's the end game with all the calls to nerf BST, is it not? So who really is being selfish here? Probably no one, they are just extending that competition here in an attempt to make it easier for them in the game.

If suddenly NIN was the king of Dynamis, and all you saw were Ninja's everywhere competing for mobs against you, suddenly, all NINs would be considered selfish and everyone would call for them to be nerfed. The stereotype is a logical fallacy based on a frequency of encounters, and the biggest laugh about the entire situation is those "non-bsts" thinking this way completely disregard that those they are calling bandwagon BSTs and calling for nerfs, are considered that because they leveled the job ONLY to farm dynamis. Meaning, they are not BSTs at all, so those you call selfish are actually NINs, or PLDs, or MNKs, or whatever their real job is. They leveled BST for dynamis due to their infatuation with a min/max mentality. The same mentality that unfairly excluded BSTs from group events over the years. But now BSTs are the ones who are selfish....

I'm not arguing the stereotype does not exist, because it clearly does. But it's based on a false premise. The problem is not with the job, its with the system.

Edit: As you can see below, my account seems accurate.

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Originally Posted by Phogg

Because that's a mature attitude.

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As it stands, I don't have anything to gain when BST gets buffed, because I never have one in my party/alliance. However, I have lots to gain when they're nerfed because it means that I'll be running into less inconsiderate BSTs everywhere I go.

Yes, it might not be a mature attitude, but until people give me a reason to reconsider, I don't care, because unlike almost every other job in this game, I actually do stand to lose something when they're buffed, because it means more idiots will join the bandwagon and ruin my fun, along with the job's already-deteriorating reputation.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

Please understand that the original message that I posted was not intended as a guarantee that we will be adding this kind of gear in the future. This was meant to only be an example of how the pet’s Treasure Hunter could be enhanced to a higher level. While this does not rule out any possibility of adding equipment like this in the future, it was never a promise that it would be implemented.

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No offense, but its pretty silly to discuss how the pet's treasure hunter could be enhanced to a higher level if the pet's treasure hunter cannot be enhanced to a higher level.

Camate,

Players are upset because for 6 months we were under the impression that SE was going to provide gear to BST with the stat "Pet: Treasure Hunter +#". We should of been informed back in February that we were under the wrong impression, and that it was only a possibility. That is why players are upset.

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Also, that is incredibly rude telling him that he needs to attend English and Language 101. He made a mistake, that's it. Everyone is entitled to make one now and then.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Really? I saw way more DRGs than BST and SMN. I guess it depends on what you mean by "parties end-game." HNM? I sure as heck didn't see BST or SMN fighting wyrms, behemoths, or turtles. Dynamis? It seemed like bringing a pet job was a cardinal sin.


Hmm. It's subjective. Some would say WAR and MNK are overpowered. Some would say WHM is overpowered or perhaps other healers are underpowered compared to it.



What makes you think I don't sympathize with DRK's situation? Just because I complain about my job doesn't mean I don't feel for yours and want you to have fun and see improvements.

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Are you serious about SMNs not being brought to HNMs? SMNs were the only DDs we had against Tiamat, Cerberus, Khimera, etc. We weren't a pet only HNMLS at all. We just used jobs that best fit the fight. It was commonplace for our LS to kill Fafnir/Nidhogg within literally 2 minutes at 75 cap. Using SMNs for certain HNM fights was by far the best choice when it came to doing a huge chunk of hateless damage when taking damage and feeding it TP were too dangerous to have.

We did let BSTs come to things like... Ouryu fights, but it was because the fights were stupidly easy that we could laugh at a crab "beating" on him. PUPs were in the same boat. They were never accepted since their utility on the HNM scene wasn't streamlined and optimal enough to be considered useful.

We always looked at DRGs as a high damage job that does very high damage and can manage their own hate enough to not get in the way. WARs were more preferred, but DRGs were accepted all the same because they're not laughable. This is of course back in the level 75 HNM days where job powerlevels weren't skewed yet.

DRK right now honestly doesn't need anything. Yes their magic is laughable, but that's not the highlight of the job funny enough. A Ragnarok/Retribution DRK is easily on par, or stronger than your Ukonvasara WAR. An Apocalypse DRK is still extremely powerful DD that can't be laughed at.

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Originally Posted by Valkrist

Are you serious about SMNs not being brought to HNMs? SMNs were the only DDs we had against Tiamat, Cerberus, Khimera, etc. We weren't a pet only HNMLS at all. We just used jobs that best fit the fight. It was commonplace for our LS to kill Fafnir/Nidhogg within literally 2 minutes at 75 cap. Using SMNs for certain HNM fights was by far the best choice when it came to doing a huge chunk of hateless damage when taking damage and feeding it TP were too dangerous to have.

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I did forget those tbh. Hey, I can't remember everything.

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We did let BSTs come to things like... Ouryu fights, but it was because the fights were stupidly easy that we could laugh at a crab "beating" on him. PUPs were in the same boat. They were never accepted since their utility on the HNM scene wasn't streamlined and optimal enough to be considered useful.

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Ouryu? I never saw a BST on him. I have done SMN for extra refresh, but Diabolos like to fly away and fight worms 50 yalms away. Never seen a PUP on him either.

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We always looked at DRGs as a high damage job that does very high damage and can manage their own hate enough to not get in the way. WARs were more preferred, but DRGs were accepted all the same because they're not laughable. This is of course back in the level 75 HNM days where job powerlevels weren't skewed yet.

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This is my experience as well.

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DRK right now honestly doesn't need anything. Yes their magic is laughable, but that's not the highlight of the job funny enough. A Ragnarok/Retribution DRK is easily on par, or stronger than your Ukonvasara WAR. An Apocalypse DRK is still extremely powerful DD that can't be laughed at.

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You'll have to discuss this with Elexia.

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Originally Posted by Phogg

This part of your post is where I take issue. Everything by nature in dynamis is competitive. THFs will flee to a mob to take the one you just pulled your weapon out to attack and and bully it in front of your face. MNKs will come out of nowhere to chi blast the same. To claim only BSTs act competitively is disingenuous at best. There is no difference, everyone competes for the mobs. People just point at BST because they see them most frequently in dynamis. That is why people hold that stereotype, not because its valid, but because it is what they are most frequently exposed to.

The irony is, what they truly want, is for THEIR job to be more powerful than a BST in dynamis. Right? That's the end game with all the calls to nerf BST, is it not? So who really is being selfish here? Probably no one, they are just extending that competition here in an attempt to make it easier for them in the game.

If suddenly NIN was the king of Dynamis, and all you saw were Ninja's everywhere competing for mobs against you, suddenly, all NINs would be considered selfish and everyone would call for them to be nerfed. The stereotype is a logical fallacy based on a frequency of encounters, and the biggest laugh about the entire situation is those "non-bsts" thinking this way completely disregard that those they are calling bandwagon BSTs and calling for nerfs, are considered that because they leveled the job ONLY to farm dynamis. Meaning, they are not BSTs at all, so those you call selfish are actually NINs, or PLDs, or MNKs, or whatever their real job is. They leveled BST for dynamis due to their infatuation with a min/max mentality. The same mentality that unfairly excluded BSTs from group events over the years. But now BSTs are the ones who are selfish....

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You're absolutely right that BST has a lack of claiming ability compared to THF and BST in Dynamis if you're only looking at a subjobless BST. Every BST in Dynamis will be /DNC and have access to Animated Flourish for a ranged claim. BST/DNC are perfectly capable of out claiming anyone else. Only the BSTs that are foolish enough to face pull are the ones that should be losing in terms of claiming ability.

The reason why BSTs are looked poorly upon in Dynamis is more than just them claiming things. It's that they're claiming multiple monsters at the same time. That 2:1 ratio is what causes BSTs to have the upper hand and the one of the reasons why they're looked so poorly upon. It's when the BSTs suddenly go up to 5:1 or higher that BSTs are looked as totally greedy. The same goes for the cleaving PLDs that were mentioned earlier as well.

You're right that people want their jobs to be "number 1". This is the real reason why BST's TH was dropped. The influx of BSTs in Dynamis showed how unbalanced the system was. Whenever you see an influx of X thing to do Y thing, something's broken. BSTs in this situation really are in the wrong in thinking that they're entitled to being better TH than every job in the game aside from THF and to think that they're entitled to have the monopoly to farming in Dynamis.


I really do not think anything that SE has done or said has been in the wrong regarding this TH "promise". Nothing was promised ever. Players were led on, yes. But promised no. The players complaining should just accept that not everything said is what's going to happen. Someone earlier had said that language is fallible. It's something that's interpreted by the individual that can lead to an infinite amount to meanings. The players are taking one of those possible meanings and demanding that it happens. It's really the players that are being unreasonable here.

We don't see people complaining or boycotting cars that are fresh of the lot. Every year concept cars are made and are "promising" the future of cars. Once the actual car comes into production, not even half of the things in the concept car are even in the finished product. People accept that some goals are lofty and sometimes just aren't going to be practical.

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Originally Posted by Valkrist

We don't see people complaining or boycotting cars that are fresh of the lot. Every year concept cars are made and are "promising" the future of cars. Once the actual car comes into production, not even half of the things in the concept car are even in the finished product. People accept that some goals are lofty and sometimes just aren't going to be practical.

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That would be because they legally have to have a disclaimer stating not all products on a concept car will make it to production.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

That would be because they legally have to have a disclaimer stating not all products on a concept car will make it to production.

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Soon enough the forum mods, and company, will always have to have a subnote saying the same thing at the rate of things.

Right now I don't think the players of FFXI really realize how lucky they are to actually give feedback to the dev team. Most modern game developers have this stance, to don't listen to the opinions of the players. Blizzard Entertainment for example has a well known policy to never put a player's suggestion into production. (I won't go more into it further because it's just opening a different can of worms.) Ron Gilbert (creator of the Monkey Island series) was recently quoted saying

"

You have to do what you want to do, and you have to do what you think is the right thing to do and what you think is the best thing to do. People who like what you do and are fans of your work are just going to like what you do as long as you do something true to yourself. You can get into a lot of trouble when you start to worry too much about what people are going to think because then you start to get into this weird self-censorship cycle. You do something that might be interesting and different and unique, but you become too worried what people are going to think, and you censor it.

Creative things, no matter what they are-books, video games, whatever-if they're really good, they have lots of pointy little edges, and that's what makes them interesting. It's all these pointy little spikes and all these little things you can cut yourself and prick yourself on, that's what makes creative work interesting. If you get into self-censorship mode, you start to pound all those pointy edges away because you're very afraid of offending somebody or worried what somebody will think of it. And then what you're left with is kind of blah, just not interesting. I think you just need to do what you think is the right thing to do, and hopefully people like it."

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

Please understand that the original message that I posted was not intended as a guarantee that we will be adding this kind of gear in the future. This was meant to only be an example of how the pet’s Treasure Hunter could be enhanced to a higher level. While this does not rule out any possibility of adding equipment like this in the future, it was never a promise that it would be implemented.

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Truth is you posted it to give false hope, so you could then argue no one had a problem with the reduction to TH1, when in reality little people did because you implied there would be gear.

Poor way to play it for a company.

meh moot point our opinions do not matter on this fact either way they can only hear our wallets

I normally don't like to play the race card but I BET if the JP community see this, their uproar and protest would make things differently for SE.