[dev1115] Job Adjustments: Red Mage

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Originally Posted by Kristal

Favorite job? I don't think there's anyone left that would still called it their favorite job... favorite SUBJOB, sure.

Unless ofcourse... perhaps when they are in a melancholic mood, thinking back of the times when the maximum level was still 75 and enfeebling skill still counted. When the difference between RDM and /RDM was beyond doubt, instead of negligable...

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Disagree.

It is still my favourite job, not being able to play it, or it having little to nothing unique to itself doesn't change that. It's my best geared job and my favourite to play as (even if it's only allowed solo now.)

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Disagree.

It is still my favourite job, not being able to play it, or it having little to nothing unique to itself doesn't change that. It's my best geared job and my favourite to play as (even if it's only allowed solo now.)

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Same here Daniel_Hatcher I'm lucky to have a group of friends that occasionally say come rdm other than that my rdm sits^^.

We have 3 people that play RDM in my LS with me. No one cares that there is a medium DD that is also going to cure them. Enfeebles are generally a joke, because anything worth enfeebling is probably immune to the idea.

In Voidwatch, I do almost nothing but proc magic because VW is boring and in Aby I don't do anything since you don't have to do anything in Aby if you have more than 3 people. BUT the second we are doing other events like Dynamis, Einherjar, Limbus, or Salvage I show up and actually have a good time.

I'm still not decided about Neo Nyzul or Legion. I don't really have any interest in slowing my friends down since there are time limits that actually matter in those events.

Just so annoying that as a RDM,
-We can't Accession our unique major spells, but SCH can Accession our most useful ones.
-We can't use Afflatus:Misery or Afflatus:Solace but WHM can use Convert
-BLMs learn stronger nukes past level 75.
-Our best enfeebles are our merit spells.
-WHM and BLM can enfeeble about 75% as well as RDM with Tier1's they get from /RDM.
-/BRD Ballad is nerfed and /NIN Utsusemi Ni is weakened but /RDM convert and refresh are full strength.
-We learn Cure before SCH and have naturally higher healing skill but don't get Cure V; SCH gets Regen V though. So RDM loses out in healing compared to both WHM and SCH.
-Highest enhancing skill, but we can only enhance ourselves and our strongest enhancing spells, other jobs get as well, or even better.
-WHM is the 'healing specialist', BLM is the nuking specialist and RDM is the "healing and enhancing specialist". So why does the healing specialist get AoE enhancing as well as AoE curing and why does the nuking specialist get AoE enfeebling in addition to AoE nuking? Shouldn't the enfeebling/enhancing specialist get the AoE enhancing/enfeebling? What good does having the highest skill for potent bar-spells and gain-spells if it only affects the RDM itself?
-Our main function is to enfeeble but 90% of NMs heavily resist enfeebling. I haven't seen many NMs that heavily resist nukes or magic damage though.
-Gravity II is our last enfeebling spell. 95% of NMs are immune to it. Even if they weren't nobody kites things anymore and the -40 evasion is minor at best especially with the gear melees wear now, feint, bards and corsairs. BLMs get Meteor which can do 60-80k damage. WHMs get a super buffed Raise spell that has shorter weakened status and bestows Reraise III on the target, SMN gets Odin and Alexander which are both extremely useful, SCH has Regen Vs which can regen up to 80+/tick and all RDM gets are Gain-Stat spells which are all useless except Gain-INT/Gain-MND but only affect us(for the enfeebles which will never land or loltier4 nukes which SCH gets Ebuillence for or BLM has Tier V nukes). All RDM gets is freaking Gravity II. Absolutely worthless. Where's Haste II? Stoneskin II? Dia IV?

Steps that can be taken:
1) Make Blind II, Paralyze II, Slow II, Phalanx II, Dia III into scrolls sold at an NPC.
2) Turn those merits into 'mastery traits' which increases potency/cast/recast/accuracy of Dia/Blind/Slow/Paralyze/Phalanx. Or make traits that augment those spells.

Blind Mastery- In addition to lower accuracy, target's evasion will be lowered.
Reduced Evasion -5 per merit.

Paralyze Mastery- In addition to paralyzing, target's magic evasion will be lowered.
Reduced Magic Evasion -5 per merit

Dia Mastery- In addition to lowered defense, target's magic defense will be lowered.
Reduced Magic Defense -2 per merit.

Phalanx Mastery- In addition to reducing damage, target may occasionally absorb damage.
Chance of absorbing +1% per merit

Slow Mastery- In addition to slow, target's attack will be lowered.
Reduced evasion -5 per merit.

Bio Mastery- In addition to bio, target's magic attack will be reduced.
Reduced Magic Attack -5 per merit.


Bam. This allows us to get stronger spells than our level 75 spells while still having merits pertaining to those spells so we can start getting things like Dia IV, Bio IV, Slow III, Paralyze III, Phalanx III etc. SCH gets Regen V and WHM gets Cure VI, BLM gets TierV nukes, why are RDM stuck on Tier II spells? We need our own line of potent spells!!

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

-BLMs learn stronger nukes past level 75.

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We got Tier IV nukes. Not sure what the problem is there.

Ok, let's see if I can cut down to some core issues....

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

-BLMs learn stronger nukes past level 75.

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So does RDM. I wasn't aware we had access to Thunder IV when the level cap was 75?

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

-Our best enfeebles are our merit spells.

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I would argue that our best enfeebles are Silence and Gravity, which aren't merit spells. Of course, by saying this, I would have to say that our merit spells lack in accuracy, potency and relevance.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

-.../RDM convert and refresh are full strength.

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You win on this one... preferably reduced to 50% conversion.
However, /rdm Refresh should be full potency. /whm Regens and Haste are full potency, too. Don't see the problem there....

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

-We learn Cure before SCH and have naturally higher healing skill but don't get Cure V; SCH gets Regen V though. So RDM loses out in healing compared to both WHM and SCH.

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Scholar is not a mage, sorta. Scholar is simply a "student of magic" rather than a "magely mage", which is why the have access to more powerful BASIC spells, but lack a lot of native spells (Haste, Refresh, so on). Additionally, SCH has less MP and less MP Restoration (Convert, Conserve MP, etc) and require subjob consideration.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

-WHM is the 'healing specialist', BLM is the nuking specialist and RDM is the "healing and enhancing specialist". So why does the healing specialist get AoE enhancing as well as AoE curing and why does the nuking specialist get AoE enfeebling in addition to AoE nuking? Shouldn't the enfeebling/enhancing specialist get the AoE enhancing/enfeebling? What good does having the highest skill for potent bar-spells and gain-spells if it only affects the RDM itself?

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RDM is not, and never has been, a "specialist" of anything. We have access to -some- White Magic, -some- Black Magic, and -some- Combat Equipment. If you really aren't careful, they could take Enspells, Refresh and Gravity away from us, since "true" RDMs of the past didn't have any "RDM only" spells.

However, I will agree that Poisonga, Sleepga, Paralyzega, Silencega, Slowga, Bioga, Gravija (needs to be added), Blindga and Bindga need to be accessible to RDM. Not because "we are masters of [enter school of magic here], but because SE gave the FFXI version of RDM a "A+ skill" in Enfeebling Magic.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

-Gravity II is our last enfeebling spell. 95% of NMs are immune to it. Even if they weren't nobody kites things anymore and the -40 evasion is minor at best especially with the gear melees wear now, feint, bards and corsairs. BLMs get Meteor which can do 60-80k damage. WHMs get a super buffed Raise spell that has shorter weakened status and bestows Reraise III on the target, SMN gets Odin and Alexander which are both extremely useful, SCH has Regen Vs which can regen up to 80+/tick and all RDM gets are Gain-Stat spells which are all useless except Gain-INT/Gain-MND but only affect us(for the enfeebles which will never land or loltier4 nukes which SCH gets Ebuillence for or BLM has Tier V nukes). All RDM gets is freaking Gravity II. Absolutely worthless. Where's Haste II? Stoneskin II? Dia IV?

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No job has Haste II, so no one needs it. Same to Stoneskin. Dia IV? Take Dia III out of the merit categories before you start asking for a higher tier.

And nice plug in for Arise. Problem is no one's gotten the spell yet... so it's a little too early to be complaining about something that you haven't even seen used yet.

Oh, and hear you mentioned that Gravity is worseless. We'll get back to that in a second.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

1) Make Blind II, Paralyze II, Slow II, Phalanx II, Dia III into scrolls sold at an NPC.

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No. Stop giving spells to NPCs. Any Spell beyond Lv.80 should be quested and hard-as-hell to acquire.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

2) Turn those merits into 'mastery traits' which increases potency/cast/recast/accuracy of Dia/Blind/Slow/Paralyze/Phalanx. Or make traits that augment those spells.

Blind Mastery- In addition to lower accuracy, target's evasion will be lowered.
Reduced Evasion -5 per merit.

Paralyze Mastery- In addition to paralyzing, target's magic evasion will be lowered.
Reduced Magic Evasion -5 per merit

Dia Mastery- In addition to lowered defense, target's magic defense will be lowered.
Reduced Magic Defense -2 per merit.

Phalanx Mastery- In addition to reducing damage, target may occasionally absorb damage.
Chance of absorbing +1% per merit

Slow Mastery- In addition to slow, target's attack will be lowered.
Reduced evasion -5 per merit.

Bio Mastery- In addition to bio, target's magic attack will be reduced.
Reduced Magic Attack -5 per merit.

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1. So... Gravity. You think gravity's -40 Evasion is pointless, but you want to add a possible -20 evasion to Blind II... assuming you can land Blind II in the first place, and assuming you cap it, and assuming that -40 and -20 actually add up to -60EVA after formula check....

So is "Evasion Down" pointless or not?

2. All your other Masteries are, let's put this nicely. "Stupid". Here's why:

a. You are applying a "guaranteed" potency (ex. "Reduced Magic Evasion -5 per mert). This is WHY all the NMs we face have flat out immunities... a scaled potency factor is the only modification that would encourage allowing us to have more/additional spells/effects.

b. We have a D skill in Dark Magic, but you want us to have "Bio Mastery"? Saboteur was the compromise for the "mastery" and "proficiency" argument, so I doubt a whole LINE of "Mastery" traits will get anyone's fair shake. Truth be told, other jobs allow these additional effects (other EVA down, DEF down, Absorb effects)... we shouldn't be able to do EVERYONE'S job as good as they can. Or else you'll be on the other side of the fence and they'll complain that RDM/ is more powerful than XXX job! And they'd be right.

c. Slow Mastery... Attack will be lowered? Why not just cast Slow II and Bio II/III? Or are you saying that you want to be able to reduce a target's attack speed by 50% and DEF by 50%? Yeah, that wouldn't be unbalanced at all.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Bam. This allows us to get stronger spells than our level 75 spells while still having merits pertaining to those spells so we can start getting things like Dia IV, Bio IV, Slow III, Paralyze III, Phalanx III etc. SCH gets Regen V and WHM gets Cure VI, BLM gets TierV nukes, why are RDM stuck on Tier II spells? We need our own line of potent spells!!

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There are "some" spells that I'd love to have... but right now it is more important for us to be able to use our -current- spell list effectively before we had more straw and hay to the "Scarecrow in a Chapeau."

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Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

You win on this one... preferably reduced to 50% conversion.
However, /rdm Refresh should be full potency. /whm Regens and Haste are full potency, too. Don't see the problem there....

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No, he doesn't. Convert is fine except in the minds of the "WHM is the boogieman" squad (which is funny because /RDM is actually the inferior choice to /SCH, and Convert barely makes it competitive at all; basically people who repeat this show how little they actually know about the game). Do Dancers complain that other jobs can use Haste Samba constantly while accusing Ninjas of getting full potency? They don't because they can merit it. Perhaps there should be more gear enhancing Convert gear, traits, or perhaps Red Mage's Convert Recast merits should be better, but having Convert from /RDM isn't what is remotely making anyone better then Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

Additionally, SCH has less MP and less MP Restoration (Convert, Conserve MP, etc) and require subjob consideration.

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No clue what you're talking about here, Scholar has decent amounts of auto-refresh gear, Arts cost reductions, Strategems to reduce MP costs, Sublimation (which gets better as levels increase), Conserve MP, Aspir, and more (many of these are available in enough amounts from /SCH that this sub is amazing for White Mage, again, /RDM Convert on WHM is a joke repeated by people who don't understand the game well).

In all honestly, I don't understand why White Mage is such the boogieman here, we're talking about a highly vulnerable position you'd be vying for. If you can provide "just enough" healing while being able to do anything else, you win the slot. With the cure formula adjustments, Red Mages can now Cure IV for numbers very close to a White Mage's Cure IV... and White Mages with decent gear and capped skill no longer need to use Cure V (and never needed to use the massive MP hog, Cure VI, again another item proclaimed repeatedly by those with lacking knowledge on the game).

That leaves White Mages with very little to edge out , such as slightly better Barspells, Shellra V, Curaga, and for the pedantic, Boost-STAT. Really, for mage parties and lowman the Refresh II, some extra nuking damage would seem like the better choice... the problem is that Bard does Refresh better with better Haste to for covering the extra DD damage in cases where the healing is more negligible, and for cases where the healing is more important Scholar has Regen V, Aurorastorm, and Rapture (you could craft a very convincing argument that Scholar is better at cures then White Mage at this point), while having better nukes, better buffs for mages, and even a better haste under their two hour. So basally, even in cases where you'd be better off with some nuking damage while still needing the occasional cure, Scholars will be taking your job. Considering that Red Mage is more then just a healing job, I'd think being better at both White and Black Magic while on one Job/Sub combination wouldn't sit very well with Red Mages, but apparently White Mage has to be the boogieman.

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By the way, as said by a Community Rep in this thread, SE isn't currently doing a major revamp of merits right now, they're changing stuff that involve timers. Working with SE with suggestions so improvements would come now while they're working on merits and timers would be suggestions about duration of spells not being based on how many merits you have, or if you were going out on a limb, asking for Convert merits to reduce the timer further. Instead we get suggestions for major revamps of the Red Mage merits when SE clearly says that's not what they're doing right now. It is probably a good idea to have a thread about merit overhauls, it is not a good idea to cry about the current merit changes when the clear goal isn't to magically fix every merit (Protectra, Ancient Magic, merit Bloodpacts) but instead to adjust timers related to merits unless you're asking for adjustments to timers.

I'm sure that if they're listening SE is already well aware of the concerns everyone repeats about major merit overhauls for Red Mage for whenever they get around to it, I'm less certain they know about timer adjustments in line with their stated goals for adjustments that they could be doing for Red Mage merits right now.

I don't want RDM to have better healing or better nukes... leave that to the actual specialists. All I ask is that the single A+ skill we have actually work the same way everyone else's A+ skills do... more stuff unique to it.

I'm the Enfeebling junky. Everything else is a stash of "meh" and "ok as it is" for me.

Although, I'll say this, very few subjobs act like RDM, insofar as /rdm gives Refresh (/brd requires 2 songs) and a full convert. Does that make it "overpowered" as a subjob? Of course not. But it doesn't seem too fair either that RDM gives more as a SJ than a lot of other jobs do. Of course, with the level cap of 99, and most stuff is being done at an easier-than-necessary level, I shouldn't expect anything less from SE for the remainder of FFXI's tenure.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

By the way, as said by a Community Rep in this thread, SE isn't currently doing a major revamp of merits right now, they're changing stuff that involve timers. Working with SE with suggestions so improvements would come now while they're working on merits and timers would be suggestions about duration of spells not being based on how many merits you have, or if you were going out on a limb, asking for Convert merits to reduce the timer further.

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Hmm... taking this one step at a time would probably work best. There's a lot of work to be done, but they got to start somewhere.
Convert Recast merits lowering recast by 60 seconds (from 20 seconds) would allow RDM to use Convert every 5 minutes versus 10 minutes on subjobs, which seems neither overpowered nor imbalanced. If anything, it's more in line with JAs on other (sub)jobs.
Dia III, Bio III and Phalanx II not requiring 5/5 upgrades just to get 100% effectiveness has been suggested countless times, but I guess it can't hurt to mention it again since SE _is_ likely to look at it right now. Being the precursor to the weaponskill merits really annoyed me.

I would love a trait for Convert that reduces the HP cost while still granting the same MP. Similar to DRK's Soul Eater one. Would be nice for the same potency and only loosing half HP.

While the gimp on Subjob is the dangerous levels on HP loss.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

Hmm... taking this one step at a time would probably work best. There's a lot of work to be done, but they got to start somewhere.
Convert Recast merits lowering recast by 60 seconds (from 20 seconds) would allow RDM to use Convert every 5 minutes versus 10 minutes on subjobs, which seems neither overpowered nor imbalanced. If anything, it's more in line with JAs on other (sub)jobs.

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My thoughts exactly about them taking one step at a time, I already commented very early in this thread with suggestions that fit, although Convert might not exactly be in the cards, I'll give more thoughts for it in a moment.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

I would love a trait for Convert that reduces the HP cost while still granting the same MP. Similar to DRK's Soul Eater one. Would be nice for the same potency and only loosing half HP.

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Either of these would work as a fix, although I'm more inclined towards a job trait in general for whatever the fix is... in fact, something like reduces the MP cost so that by 99 if you have both the Mythic weapon (which should get some sort of adjustment so that converting allows your MP to go above max probably) and job traits reduce the HP cost to nil (these job traits would be 50-80ish), and then follow up with timer adjustments that in conjunction with the merits reduce the timer to five minutes (76-99).

It is a bit off topic (especially since I just said we should be focusing on merit timers like SE is), so really if we want this it should go into another thread (and if I made one it would be for adjustments to BLM/RDM/WHM/SCH in general not just Red Mage). That said, Divine Seal gets improved job traits at 50 (still not worth meriting the recast though), and Elemental Seal has some uses with Meteor (although I could see it getting an adjustment such as +Conserve MP or +Occult Accumen), I could see Convert getting some adjustments for main RDM while not trying to fix what isn't broke for /RDM.

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Originally Posted by Kristal

Dia III, Bio III and Phalanx II not requiring 5/5 upgrades just to get 100% effectiveness has been suggested countless times, but I guess it can't hurt to mention it again since SE _is_ likely to look at it right now.

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People shouldn't give up on trying to get more general enfeeble adjustments when SE comes to the part of their roadmap to adjust enfeebles in general (and other changes too), but definitely gonna trumpet this loud in this thread for something SE could do right now for merit/timer adjustments.

There are plenty of threads for talking job adjustments but for this one, I'd like to clearly ask SE to look into changing the duration benefits on Dia III/Bio III/Phalanx II because it is in line with their merit timer adjustments and is the right thing to do.

Well, the roadmap shows changes "will" be made (not "under consideration") about monster enfeebling magic resistence.

Of course, this won't happen for another month and change at a minimum... but now would be a good time to start testing the resistences as they stand (testing beyond the "it doesn't stick so it must be immune" theory) so we can see exactly what kinds of change(s) get implimented.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

-WHM is the 'healing specialist', BLM is the nuking specialist and RDM is the "healing and enhancing specialist". So why does the healing specialist get AoE enhancing as well as AoE curing and why does the nuking specialist get AoE enfeebling in addition to AoE nuking? Shouldn't the enfeebling/enhancing specialist get the AoE enhancing/enfeebling? What good does having the highest skill for potent bar-spells and gain-spells if it only affects the RDM itself?

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Speaking strictly in terms of archetypes, enhancing/buffs are built into healing. This is why healers as a rule can buff their comrades. Red Mage is a hybrid. A guy with black magic, white magic, and a sword in hand. That's VERY different from being a healer.

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-Our main function is to enfeeble but 90% of NMs heavily resist enfeebling. I haven't seen many NMs that heavily resist nukes or magic damage though.

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You're not taking into account that enfeebles as per Final Fantasy are pretty damn OP when looking at the big picture of debuffs relative to MMOs. Again, Red Mage wouldn't have run into this problem if it received magic that actually enfeebled a mob instead of try to shut it down in some way. Reducing potential damage is very different from negating an action (Paralyze). Reducing potential magic damage is very different from locking up spells (Silence). Reducing effectiveness and damage from special attacks is very different from locking those up (Amnesia).

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- Where's Haste II?

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Considering Haste is just as spell, we don't need a II version of it unless it's self cast, scales with enhancing skill and gives us much more than recast reductions and faster auto-attacks.

With all of this said, you can't take the same approach taken to BLM WHM and SCH. Firstly because the job is a hybrid, and if there's gonna be uber spell then I expect uber melee buffs to maintain the hybrid aspect of the job. Secondly because the job is built upon borrowing things from other jobs. That has to always be kept in mind when dealing with RDM.

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I'm sure that if they're listening SE is already well aware of the concerns everyone repeats about major merit overhauls for Red Mage for whenever they get around to it, I'm less certain they know about timer adjustments in line with their stated goals for adjustments that they could be doing for Red Mage merits right now.

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The problem I have with getting something "right now" is that it'd be a band aid on a bullet wound. The merits simply don't do much for the job and thus need to be replaced. I don't think anyone on these forums actually disagrees with that. I also fear getting something "right now" would be used as an excuse to not redo the merits for the job. If SE is going to clean up the mess, I expect them to clean it up the right way and not take shortcuts to get one of the two camps to shup up.

I'm gonna say this .. Traits traits traits.

First off RDM should have the ability to be as effective with a sword or dagger equipped. There should be a trait that's like fencer on other jobs to improve, cure potency, magic accuracy, magic potency. Right now the role of enfeebler is punished because staves give us more mage benefit then the native weapons we're capable of using.

Magic Fencer, Increases Magic affinity when equipping bladed weapons dependent on the melee skill level of the weapon equipped. This allows the melee aspect without totally hurting the mage part.

As for temper: The most I think temper could get away with as self target is having an aura based effect like the avatars.

Secondly to get a slot in a party these enfeebles we're supposed to SPECIALIZE in should really hurt an enemy. When they stick they should stick hard and not have laughable effects. The enfeebles should make party leaders think this "OMG we must try and get a RDM their enfeebles will make these fights so much easier."

Right now the mentality is "OMG we must try and get a BRD/COR their buffs will make these fights so much easier." This is the cold hard truth and the main reason RDM's aren't given a spot in the harder events.

Until the enfeeble thing happens RDM is little more then a non-specialist that attempts to be everything but ends up being slightly better then something when it counts. Players can poke and prod this job until their fingers bleed. New Job abilities, gear etc. shouldn't be whats fixed. What should be fixed is making the jobs specialized abilities stand out enough that people take notice.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

...[T]hese enfeebles we're supposed to SPECIALIZE in should really hurt an enemy. When they stick they should stick hard and not have laughable effects. The enfeebles should make party leaders think this "OMG we must try and get a RDM their enfeebles will make these fights so much easier."

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Traditionally enfeebles are absolutes: Slow = Slow; Paralyze can negate any action, Silence prohibits any Spells, Amnesia (non-accessible) prohibits abilities... the reason why our enfeebles aren't of any significant use is not because they are weak enfeebles, but rather because making an NM difficult requires it to not be so easily inhibited.

Our enfeebles should have a variation to them: if they are easy to stick, they should be hard to proc, if they are easy to proc, they should be hard to stick. Not every spell should work the same way Dia (and Bio) does....

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Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

Paralyze can negate any action

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Paralyze does not affect TP moves, which is part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Paralyze does not affect TP moves, which is part of the problem.

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The Problem is that these Spells are absolutes. Paralyze is the only spell which "might" stop an action, but when it procs, it does stop it; Slow is a guaranteed %, Silence/Amnesia are guaranteed effects, so on and so forth.

If we want our enfeebles to actually matter, the behavior of the spells will have to change in conjunction with monster immunities/resistences.

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Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

Traditionally enfeebles are absolutes: Slow = Slow; Paralyze can negate any action, Silence prohibits any Spells, Amnesia (non-accessible) prohibits abilities... the reason why our enfeebles aren't of any significant use is not because they are weak enfeebles, but rather because making an NM difficult requires it to not be so easily inhibited.

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Quoting for emphasis. Someone else finally gets it.

If I were adjust enfeebling with the caveat that no new spells are actually added, I would change the following:

Paralyze: Attack Down, Accuracy Down and random chance of preventing an action. Attack down effect stacks with Bio, Accuracy Down effect stacks with Blind. NM's are immune to the chance of preventing an action.

Silence: Magic Attack Down, Magic Accuracy Down and prevents the use of magic for duration of effect. NM's are immune to the "prevents use of magic".

Bio and Dia can now affect the same mob.

It's not much, but it would be a good start, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

[Some good stuff]

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I don't see why Dia and Bio shouldn't stack, although I think that perhaps they should not be a guaranteed % of DEF/ATK down, respectively.

I'm not a big fan of adding effects to spells, because I'm more of a purist in terms of spell names versus effect. However, I think that spells should be adjusted as such:

--Paralyze Chance %: Anywhere from 3~33.33%, but take out immunity (3% Para chance is close enough to immunity, but will still give a -chance- of effectiveness).
--Silence duration: Anywhere from 5~120 seconds... let NM resistence build up over time.
--Slow %: Vary from 5%-50%; same concept as above for potency and duration.
--Sleep: Same as Silence, except (Sleep 5~60sec max, Sleep II 5~120sec max)
--Bind: No change
--Gravity: Movement Speed Reduction: -10~-40%; Evasion down -5%~-25%, conditional to potency/duration checks.
--Etc, etc

Again, the easier to land, the harder to proc; the harder to land, the higher the proc; Immunities should be elemental, not spell-based (ie. Immune to Silence should be immune to all Wind-based spells, effects, and WSs)....

At least, that's what -I- would like to see.

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Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

Traditionally enfeebles are absolutes: Slow = Slow; Paralyze can negate any action, Silence prohibits any Spells, Amnesia (non-accessible) prohibits abilities... the reason why our enfeebles aren't of any significant use is not because they are weak enfeebles, but rather because making an NM difficult requires it to not be so easily inhibited.

Our enfeebles should have a variation to them: if they are easy to stick, they should be hard to proc, if they are easy to proc, they should be hard to stick. Not every spell should work the same way Dia (and Bio) does....

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That's ironic you said this because almost all the mobs that have these immunities can be stun locked in some way or another. If seen from outside the box buffs from brd/cor stack and don't resist. RDM is a job that's supposed to help the team by making the monster weaker. Buffs do the same but ,are considered more useful because they don't resist on the party. THe rolls can be bad with an inexperienced player but still potent. It's simple logic, they always make the enemy easier by making the team stronger.

What does RDM have? Spells and abilities that aren't as benefiting the team at the same level. Why?, because they can't stick big stuff so their not nearly as useful. Back when chainspell stun was the rage a lvl mnk75/drk37 could stick it like a lvl drk75/war37. Likewise flash also stuck as mnk75/pld37. Here comes a RDM that's well geared and they couldn't even chainspell native spells with the same effect potency as subjob spell with lower skill. About the only thing that would stick was dias.

On a final note for mobs that need procs, If a mob is weak to it should automatically have 100% accuracy. Potency and duration would still be restricted if skill was low.

It's not ironic "that I said it."

It's stupid because that's how SE did it.

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Originally Posted by Llana_Virren

I don't see why Dia and Bio shouldn't stack, although I think that perhaps they should not be a guaranteed % of DEF/ATK down, respectively.

I'm not a big fan of adding effects to spells, because I'm more of a purist in terms of spell names versus effect. However, I think that spells should be adjusted as such:

--Paralyze Chance %: Anywhere from 3~33.33%, but take out immunity (3% Para chance is close enough to immunity, but will still give a -chance- of effectiveness).
--Silence duration: Anywhere from 5~120 seconds... let NM resistence build up over time.
--Slow %: Vary from 5%-50%; same concept as above for potency and duration.
--Sleep: Same as Silence, except (Sleep 5~60sec max, Sleep II 5~120sec max)
--Bind: No change
--Gravity: Movement Speed Reduction: -10~-40%; Evasion down -5%~-25%, conditional to potency/duration checks.
--Etc, etc

Again, the easier to land, the harder to proc; the harder to land, the higher the proc; Immunities should be elemental, not spell-based (ie. Immune to Silence should be immune to all Wind-based spells, effects, and WSs)....

At least, that's what -I- would like to see.

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I'll disagree, mostly because lack of consistency has a hand in making things undesireable. My suggestions keep the caveat in mind, while at the same time addressing the fact that enfeebles aren't exactly useful because, as you and I have been saying, they are absolutes. Having a RDM build up their enfeebles by giving enfeebles stacking effects plays on the supposed specialization of RDM while giving spells normally not used for NMs new use and value.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Paralyze: Attack Down, Accuracy Down and random chance of preventing an action. Attack down effect stacks with Bio, Accuracy Down effect stacks with Blind. NM's are immune to the chance of preventing an action.

Silence: Magic Attack Down, Magic Accuracy Down and prevents the use of magic for duration of effect. NM's are immune to the "prevents use of magic".

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No.

Immunities need to be removed in all instances. Giving NMs an automatic pass on being affected by enfeebles(or parts of an enfeeble in your example) is a significant part of what got us into this hole in the first place. Put down the shovel and stop digging.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

No.

Immunities need to be removed in all instances. Giving NMs an automatic pass on being affected by enfeebles(or parts of an enfeeble in your example) is a significant part of what got us into this hole in the first place. Put down the shovel and stop digging.

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Sorry, but there's a reason other MMOs make bosses immune to effects that shut down normal mobs. This is a case of SE trying to go against the grain and RDM paying the price for it.

Except SE has shown they can subvert that even if they do land by giving monsters unnamed AoE TP moves that require no TP to use.

In the case of a mob having a immunity to a spell which base element there weak too is the real issue. Example: A mob that's wind base and weak to Ice shouldn't have a immunity to Ice base spells like paralyze. That's just doesn't make sense.