[dev1080] Thief - Assassin's Charge/feint proposed Adjustments

For some reason I though these changes were live as of the Feb. 14 update but they're not even on the test server yet. What I get for skimming over the job changes. Anyway, I'll definitely be lowering Assassin's Charge to 1/5 when this happens, since I was able to land all 3 hits pretty consistently even with flash on last night... As far as feint goes, I guess I'll have to see the TH rate on it and either leave it at 4/5 or up it to 5/5.

Just for arguements sake, I will use Assassin's Charge in TP mode when I'm /dnc in an oshi-I-need-tp moment. It isn't much, but usually will at least push me within an attack phase of Waltz.

As for the updates themselves, I think the TH bonus to Feint is rather awesome. Means we can alternate Feint and Bully (more or less) and really see some TH progression. That being said, it still all depends on the TH cap and over-all usefulness. From the looks of it, VW and Legion are the endgame events of 99, so THWhore will still not have a use beyond Aby-farm, old school events, and Nyzul uncharted.

Long story short. Assassin's Charge 1/5, Aura Steal 4/5, Feint 5/5, then hang up the bonnet for my other jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Delvish

Just for arguements sake, I will use Assassin's Charge in TP mode when I'm /dnc in an oshi-I-need-tp moment. It isn't much, but usually will at least push me within an attack phase of Waltz.

---

Are you missing a lot of Triple Attack gear? With merits you're at 11%. Raider's Bonnet +2 3%, Epona's Ring 3%, Triplus Dagger 3%. This is where I am right now with TA, 20% that's 1 every 5 swings (on average) outside of abyssea. With Raider's Earring and Assassin's Pouliaines on my wishlist I'll be at 24% which is almost once every 4 swings. On top of that, there is 2% double Attack on Atheling, 2% on Twilight belt, 3% on Epona's, which equates to 6.4% (at 20% TA - 6.04% at 24%) after the triple attack has missed it's chance to proc for a total of 26% chance of a multi-hit with my gear, and 30% chance if you have the other 2 pieces.

Given the 2 second delay upon using a JA, you'd get more TP from letting yourself auto-attack than you would from hitting AC unless you are hitting it while you are not engaged, to build that initial TP.

TBH if you're fighting something that you really need the extra TP on, you're probably riding the waltz timer anyway, so you might as well just save AC for your WS and get it killed faster.

why use raider's earring? Brutal is better for any achievable TA rate. Also, the super TA rate that would be necessary for raiders to win will also make it a lousy increase to dps, and i bet a simple attack earring would beat it then.

Atheling mantel actually has 3% double attack rate, and I wouldn't use raider's over brutal earring. The only time I use AC on a melee swing is if I'm /dnc and low on HP and want to be sure I get a triple attack so I can heal myself.

Don't forget Twilight Belt's 2%, and if you're a good Thief these days you'll be /WAR anyway to most events (bar maybe Dynamis).

So right off the bat with Atheling + Twilight /WAR you got 15% Double Attack. 20% With brutal. I stopped using Triplus Dagger when i got my Flame-knife. So my Triple Attack rate is 20% (Head, Ring, Feet, Natural+merits)

So with a Brutal You're looking at 20 / 20
With Raiders its 15 / 21

Think Brutal Wins.

Like I said in the other thread, I got the earring for BLM, so I don't have Suppa. I use brutal/Aesis now, but will swap to raiders/brutal. I did the maths for 3% DA on Atheling, not 2%, just typo'd 2% there, and I always forget about the 5% on brutal for some reason.
With Epona's 3% as well and /war it's 23% DA. Stacked with 24% TA it's a 41% chance to multi-attack, even outside of abyssea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ziero

Personally, I still feel both changes are...kinda useless. As a Thf I've always hated that SE felt our job's only purpose was to enhance drops so the change to Feint is not one I'm looking forward to. And with Ass. Charge, when you get the Augmented +2 Relic feet, you get +5 Crit Hit rate in addition to the +3 TAtt, +TAtt Damage if you fully merit Assassin's Charge, so you'd still want to fully merit it anyway.

I mean, instead of going 5/5 Feint, 4/5 Aura Steal, 1/5 Ass. Charge I guess I can go 5/5 Ass. Charge, 4/5 Aura Steal and 1/5 Feint. In the end however, it doesn't really change anything. It's not like these changes open us up to having more merit options, it still comes down to juggling merits between the same three categories.

In light of seeing other jobs get lesser used JAs have their recasts dropped or their durations changed, I was kind of hoping Steal/Despoil/Mug would see some adjustments. Personally, I feel the act of actively taking something away from the mob is more in line of what a "Thief" should be as opposed to just being a job that makes things drop more frequently. Instead all Thfs get is the joy of having to rearrange merits. It doesn't really make the job better at anything and instead just reinforces our role as "Treasure Whore", something I'm not too fond of.

---

Evisceration isnt a ws we stack with SA/TA anymore because exenterator is better and the other ws like rudra/mercy dont crit either so the 5% crit bonus is effectively useless if you were under the impression it actually does something

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Delvish

Just for arguements sake, I will use Assassin's Charge in TP mode when I'm /dnc in an oshi-I-need-tp moment. It isn't much, but usually will at least push me within an attack phase of Waltz.

---

using A charge for tpgain actually lowers the tp obtained thanks to jadelay so dont do that.

FYI you guys are all behind the times. We assumed for years that SATA+WS worked like solo SATA for acc.

It doesnt.

When SA/TA(with assassin) all hits have 100% acc. Offhand]/Singles/Doubles/Triples/Quads. All 100% acc.

When SA/TA+WS is used, there is no such acc bonus beyond the FIRST hit. The offhand hit and any DA/TA/QA do NOT have guranteed acc. We often stack dex out the wazoo, so acc isnt much of a problem, but if you are diligent watching your TP returns you will see that it isnt the case. This has been a misconception for years because we all just assumed it worked like a melee SA/TA. It doesnt.

The acc bonus isnt 100% useless because we have been 100% wrong on our assumption on acc with SATA+WS and its still (obviously) a commonly held belief.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aana

FYI you guys are all behind the times. We assumed for years that SATA+WS worked like solo SATA for acc.

It doesnt.

When SA/TA(with assassin) all hits have 100% acc. Offhand/Singles/Doubles/Triples/Quads. All 100% acc.

When SA/TA+WS is used, there is no such acc bonus beyond the FIRST hit. The offhand hit and any DA/TA/QA do NOT have guranteed acc. We often stack dex out the wazoo, so acc isnt much of a problem, but if you are diligent watching your TP returns you will see that it isnt the case. This has been a misconception for years because we all just assumed it worked like a melee SA/TA. It doesnt.

The acc bonus isnt 100% useless because we have been 100% wrong on our assumption on acc with SATA+WS and its still (obviously) a commonly held belief.

---

Not saying i don't believe you....

But can you provide me with these tests and proof please :)? With all these new revelations I'm starting to learn to not take things at face value.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aana

FYI you guys are all behind the times. We assumed for years that SATA+WS worked like solo SATA for acc.

It doesnt.

When SA/TA(with assassin) all hits have 100% acc. Offhand/Singles/Doubles/Triples/Quads. All 100% acc.

When SA/TA+WS is used, there is no such acc bonus beyond the FIRST hit. The offhand hit and any DA/TA/QA do NOT have guranteed acc. We often stack dex out the wazoo, so acc isnt much of a problem, but if you are diligent watching your TP returns you will see that it isnt the case. This has been a misconception for years because we all just assumed it worked like a melee SA/TA. It doesnt.

The acc bonus isnt 100% useless because we have been 100% wrong on our assumption on acc with SATA+WS and its still (obviously) a commonly held belief.

---

All additional hits caused by a multi-hit weaponskill aren't 100% acc. We've known this for years. It's always been a good idea to stick acc gear on, because a 5-hit ws with an off-hand swing and triple attack (unstacked) is Asuran Fists territory which has something like (off the top of my head) 8% chance to land all 8 hits even with capped acc. Even stacked, DE and Evis have 4 hits that aren't guaranteed.

However, if anyone can show me a screenshot of a bully > sneak attack > ws that returned less than 9%tp (for main and off-hand only) with proof that you were dual-wielding, don't have plague on and didn't kill the mob before all hits went off... oh wait that's practically impossible.

I rarely see less than 14tp returns, and I'm happy with that. Not forgetting that ADL is probably the only mob high enough to worry about acc on that a THF might fight. (WoE and VW = {Job Change}) And there's always Sushi.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Babekeke

However, if anyone can show me a screenshot of a bully > sneak attack > ws that returned less than 9%tp (for main and off-hand only) with proof that you were dual-wielding, don't have plague on and didn't kill the mob before all hits went off... oh wait that's practically impossible.

---

Single hit TP return (9.2%)

Full SA+AC+WS TP return (11.2%)

Not full SA+AC+WS TP return (10.2%)

Conclusion:
100% Triple Attack accuracy with SA+AC doesn't apply to WS.

Test info:
My hit rate was floored (Vicissitude, Mounted Champion, Voracious Violet, only HP cruor buff, no DEX+ or Acc/Skill+ gear) and it took me a while to get 11% TP on WS, just to show the max TP return was indeed 11% with all three hits connecting. The gear was the exact same in all scenarios with no Store TP. I was on THF/WAR to get access to Heavy Swing.

Edit: The 11% was attained without VV Atma, as you can see on the screenshot. My hit rate was so low that building TP took me ages, so I switched after that. The 10% TP screenshot couldn't have happened if the Regain tick kicked in, so obviously it was attained through a 2/3 hit connect on WS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

Single hit TP return (9.2%)

Full SA+AC+WS TP return (11.2%)

Not full SA+AC+WS TP return (10.2%)

Conclusion:
100% Triple Attack accuracy with SA+AC doesn't apply to WS.

Test info:
My hit rate was floored (Vicissitude, Mounted Champion, Voracious Violet, only HP cruor buff, no DEX+ or Acc/Skill+ gear) and it took me a while to get 11% TP on WS, just to show the max TP return was indeed 11% with all three hits connecting. The gear was the exact same in all scenarios with no Store TP. I was on THF/WAR to get access to Heavy Swing.

Edit: The 11% was attained without VV Atma, as you can see on the screenshot. My hit rate was so low that building TP took me ages, so I switched after that. The 10% TP screenshot couldn't have happened if the Regain tick kicked in, so obviously it was attained through a 2/3 hit connect on WS.

---

Going to go test this myself using an easier method, Called a Blind Potion. Cause i fail to believe this... It turns my whole world upside down

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Going to go test this myself using an easier method, Called a Blind Potion. Cause i fail to believe this... It turns my whole world upside down

---

I didn't know Blinding Potions were that potent, I only now looked it up myself. Wouldn't have made it much easier though, although you could /NIN to make sure you don't get hit after WS. Single wielding and doing Mandalic Stab should be just as efficient though. I chose dolls because they're usually EM or T because of the people EXPing there, and Aby offers other things as well (like insane HP pool and Atma).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

I didn't know Blinding Potions were that potent, I only now looked it up myself. Wouldn't have made it much easier though, although you could /NIN to make sure you don't get hit after WS. Single wielding and doing Mandalic Stab should be just as efficient though. I chose dolls because they're usually EM or T because of the people EXPing there, and Aby offers other things as well (like insane HP pool and Atma).

---

Well my Initial Tests show...

TP/hit - 11
SA WS - 11
SA AC WS - 13
SA AC WS - 13
SA AC WS + Blind potion - 12
SA AC WS + Blind Potion - 13
SA AC WS + Blind Potion - 13

... I don't know, Theres something else at work here. The chance of me landing 2, Let alone 3 Hits of a SA/AC if the second/third hit weren't heavily acc buffed is so improbable... That I'd have a higher chance of winning the Bonanza than landing 3 hits in a row with Floored Accuracy.

Let alone twice. Its really quite baffling. The absolute improbability of it... There has to be something more to this...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Well my Initial Tests show...

TP/hit - 11
SA WS - 11
SA AC WS - 13
SA AC WS - 13
SA AC WS + Blind potion - 12
SA AC WS + Blind Potion - 13
SA AC WS + Blind Potion - 13

... I don't know, Theres something else at work here. The chance of me landing 2, Let alone 3 Hits of a SA/AC if the second/third hit weren't heavily acc buffed is so improbable... That I'd have a higher chance of winning the Bonanza than landing 3 hits in a row with Floored Accuracy.

Let alone twice. Its really quite baffling. The absolute improbability of it... There has to be something more to this...

---

Maybe your accuracy was not as low as you think it was? Is Blinding Potion really -256? What was your hit rate, and what level was the mob?

Also, it's quite possible that WS get an innate accuracy bonus for all hits regardless. Me, for one, I had a very hard time getting that 11% TP return, only managed that once.

Having done quite a few more tests I've noticed something interesting ish. I got 10% TP almost every time, with a few 11% TP exceptions. I've never seen 9% TP return. I guess the old "only first two hits" rule applies to this as well. Perfect accuracy on the first two hits, and regular accuracy on the third hit.

Regardless, the verdict stands, additional merits for this are almost entirely wasted.

Finally found the original thread that tested this back in 2010.

I miss spoke in my other post. Offhand does land, but anything besides main+offhand has no ac boost. Screenshots and everything. Screenshot of a 9TP return, SA+AC Sharkbite when the TP return for 2 hits is only 9. Its pretty undisputable. Missed both triple attack hits AND the 'second' sharkbite hit. Whole thing but main and off completely whiffed.

Credit to Melphina for this test.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

Having done quite a few more tests I've noticed something interesting ish. I got 10% TP almost every time, with a few 11% TP exceptions. I've never seen 9% TP return. I guess the old "only first two hits" rule applies to this as well. Perfect accuracy on the first two hits, and regular accuracy on the third hit.

Regardless, the verdict stands, additional merits for this are almost entirely wasted.

---

Yah, Seems to be a "First two hits" Situation.

My accuracy was most certainly floored btw >_>

/points up. Only the main/offhand that give full hit TP (4.X generally) are 100%. Everything else can miss.

I wouldnt say extra merits are fully wasted. All the options are meh. What are you going to do instead? Ambush? lolTH feint? None of the 'additional effects' are OMGBBQ GOTA HAZ!

I will add though, mercy stroke thfs should strongly consider AC merits because unlike the rest of us that stack 90+ dex on all our WS for loads of acc on WS anyway, a mandau thf using str based mercy builds doesnt have all that free acc. Acc on an AC is most welcome in a build like that on a WS that strong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aana

/points up. Only the main/offhand that give full hit TP (4.X generally) are 100%. Everything else can miss.

---

/points up. That makes no sense. Explain my minimum of 10% TP return please.

I have a theory that would explain both Melphina's and my results, but I need some further testing to make sure. I'll try to finish it after work today.

I was pointing to the link in my post that clearly shows a 9tp return. You only need 1 incidence that all hits can miss to prove all hits can miss. The question was "do additional hits have guaranteed acc like melee SATA?" The screenshot of 9tp proves the answer is no.

What more complex theory do you need when it clearly shows they all missed, and it was also sharkbite which meant that the triple (2hits) and the 'second' hit of SB missed. It doesnt get much clearer than that.

What else is there to explain that needs some further analysis?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aana

I was pointing to the link in my post that clearly shows a 9tp return. You only need 1 incidence that all hits can miss to prove all hits can miss. The question was "do additional hits have guaranteed acc like melee SATA?" The screenshot of 9tp proves the answer is no.

---

What a limited point of view. Here's mine:

• When dual wielding, two hits have perfect accuracy
• When using a two-handed weapon, two hits have perfect accuracy

Now, the chance that this is a coincidence is the chance that one of the two extra hits connected to the power of the number of samples, so
1-(1-(2*acc*(1-acc)))^n,
where acc is the actual hit rate (20% in my case) and n is the testing sample (well over 20, but don't know the exact number, so I'll use that). So, the chance that this is a coincidence is less than 0.04%, or put differently, it's 99.96% probable that they're related. Yet, you're saying this doesn't need further analysis?

Also, how is saying "it works on the first two hits" more complex than "it works on the certain two hits when dual wielding but otherwise on one hit"? And how is it more complex if we already know that there's other effects that work on the first two hits of a WS (like the ability to double/triple attack)?

Lulz i didnt see you were testing with a staff (assumed daggers since it was a thf discussion :P) so i couldnt imagine what you still needed to 'verify' that wasnt already in the link i posted. I thought you were trying to create some weird model beyond "you can miss additional 1tp hits" for SA+Dagger skills when it is quite clear from my link that you could. Makes way more sense now.

On staves:
Its been known for years that SA+WS with a 2handed weapon gurantees the 1st TWO hits. This has been the case since SA+Sturmwind/Double thrust/Enpi was all the rage in 2004. Thats why you cant get a 9% with a staff with such crap acc leaving you with 10 in most cases. The 11 was probably just an odball outlier since acc can only get floored for melee hits to 20%, so always a 1/5 chance to land that 3rd hit and probably just rolled lucky.

SA with 1handed weapons is 100% on the 1st hit. If you DW, you also get 100% on the offhand.

2hand=1st 2 hit 100%. 1hand=main 100%, offhand(if applicable) 100%.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aana

On staves:
Its been known for years that SA+WS with a 2handed weapon gurantees the 1st TWO hits. This has been the case since SA+Sturmwind/Double thrust/Enpi was all the rage in 2004.

---

I guess that, relatively speaking, I'm still new to the THF scene. I didn't have a DD pre-2009 and only leveled THF later that year, and I've never once been DD/THF, so none of that was known to me. However, it seems you're the one overcomplicating things now. It seems pretty obvious and simple: SA/TA guarantee the first two hits of a weapon skill to land. There's no need for any distinction by cases.

something something the new merit stuff for AC is gonna give chance @ quadruple attack now instead of ACC per merit?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Falseliberty

something something the new merit stuff for AC is gonna give chance @ quadruple attack now instead of ACC per merit?

---

... What?

Where are you getting that from >_>?

The untranslated post from a few days ago. Rough translation:

[[
First couple quotes are notes about the original dev1080/dev1084 plans, which was reducing default recast time from 15 minutes to 5, and adding 25% accuracy per additional merit rather than reducing recast time. The translated versions of those are here and here.

Since they worked out that you virtually never need any substantial amount of additional accuracy, they planned to change the effect.

Note that the original change is what's going in on the test server tomorrow.

Concerns

If the use of the abilities was only for auto-attack, it'd be fine. However the effect isn't so workable when combined with weaponskills. It can only either work with the first hit or all hits.

Essentially, either you can get the accuracy boost on the first hit allong with the DA/TA (which makes the accuracy mostly useless due to the innate boost you get on the first hit anyway, and even less so when combined with SA/TA), or get the accuracy on all hits but also have the DA/TA proc on all hits (which is overpowered).


So, the effect of the revised change is that:

Warrior's Charge: Instead of -2:30 to the reuse timer, additional merits add 5% to the chance that you'll triple attack rather than just double attack.

Assassin's Charge: Instead of -2:30 to the reuse timer, additional merits add 5% to the chance that you'll quadruple attack rather than just triple attack.
]]

There's also a followup post in that same thread made yesterday to answer some questions a jp poster had.

Hmmm, I'm going to Keep 5/5 Feint, But maybe go with 4/5Asn Charge and 1/5 Aura Steal, Keep my merits how they are, 20% Chance of Quad attack on Mercy stroke doesn't strike me as horrible.

a 20% chance of an extra hit still sounds silly. Although it's not like we have so many options...

I would rather have a decent boost to triple attack damage instead. This (hopefully) would affect the damage of the main hit of a ws, making it much more juicy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laphine

I would rather have a decent boost to triple attack damage instead. This (hopefully) would affect the damage of the main hit of a ws, making it much more juicy.

---

It would likely work like DA and TA and just add another melee round of the main weapon in the mix. Which, I have to say, sounds pretty awesome to me, I have no idea why people are not psyched about this. I'm pretty sure I'll keep 5/5 AC and maybe 5/5 AS, depending on how shitty the TH adjustment for Feint will be.

You mean instead of 3 hits we would have, idk, 6? lol Certainly it would be awesome, but by Motenten's words it doesn't sound like that at all for me.

"Instead of -2:30 to the reuse timer, additional merits add 5% to the chance that you'll quadruple attack rather than just triple attack."

But if an AC triple attack had a chance to proc a quadruple, it would be very interesting indeed. Otherwise we are talking about a single extra hit worth of damage every 25min of AC usage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laphine

You mean instead of 3 hits we would have, idk, 6? lol Certainly it would be awesome, but by Motenten's words it doesn't sound like that at all for me.

---

Huh? Why not? I don't see him say anything about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laphine

But if an AC triple attack had a chance to proc a quadruple, it would be very interesting indeed. Otherwise we are talking about a single extra hit worth of damage every 25min of AC usage.

---

A single extra hit worth of damage every 5min (why 25min?). Doesn't sound too bad to me. What if AC would give the next WS a 15% damage boost? Because that's about what it boils down to, even more depending on WS.

I considered that the QA replaces TA back there. 20% chance to get a quadruple it's 1 QA every 5 ACs. 1 lousy extra hit in 25min. Now if the QA is procd from the TA, we would have 3 extra hits every 25min. Much better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laphine

I considered that the QA replaces TA back there. 20% chance to get a quadruple it's 1 QA every 5 ACs. 1 lousy extra hit in 25min. Now if the QA is procd from the TA, we would have 3 extra hits every 25min. Much better.

---

I see, talking averages. And I maintain that this is better than the alternative (accuracy boost). Assassin's Charge is a pretty small bonus in itself, if you think about it, this is still quite nice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

I guess that, relatively speaking, I'm still new to the THF scene. I didn't have a DD pre-2009 and only leveled THF later that year, and I've never once been DD/THF, so none of that was known to me. However, it seems you're the one overcomplicating things now. It seems pretty obvious and simple: SA/TA guarantee the first two hits of a weapon skill to land. There's no need for any distinction by cases.

---

I realize it sounds nitpicky, but its just not quite the same thing. 2hand is 1st 2 hits. 1hand is just the 1st hit (IE sharkbite single wield doesnt land both hits, or evis or anything else), UNLESS you DW and then it gets the stats of your offhand instead of your mainhand for the second 100% hit. Its not a big deal anymore since DW is native, but its still not the 1st 2 hits. And i didnt mean that everyone should know it and your dumb, i was only pointing out that its been known for years so you dont have to go personally verify and reinvent the wheel on old stuff.
______________________________
On topic, the quad attack is ok i guess. I would be flabberghasted if it actually added an additional 3 hits BEYOND the 2 that TA gives. I would suspect that it just makes the triple into a quad and nothing more. We do still have the 8hit limitation to deal with which would make it worthless on things like evis/DE that is already5+1 hit normally (DW) and 8 with just a normal TA. Even on 4+1 Exenterator a quad atack on 1st hit would prevent a TA on the offhand hit which is actually a bit of a kick in the teeth.

I wouldnt really loose any sleep over a 20% shot every 5 min to land 1 extra hit (that can miss) on a WS unless you are a Twash/Mandau thf as those WS have monster mods and only 1+1 hit base so it wont overwrite a TA proc on the offhand. QA+TA=7hit rudra/mercy.....that sounds kinda nice for some screenies, even though it has little effect on overall DOT as a thf.

Honestly, none of our merit 'adjustments' do anything really awesome. But the adjustments do take the 'cookie cutter' effect away. You can stick 1 in everything then whatever the F you want after that since none are so game breaking that you MUST HAZ EET. I do like that aspect of a little customization, even if minor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aana

I realize it sounds nitpicky, but its just not quite the same thing. 2hand is 1st 2 hits. 1hand is just the 1st hit (IE sharkbite single wield doesnt land both hits, or evis or anything else), UNLESS you DW and then it gets the stats of your offhand instead of your mainhand for the second 100% hit. Its not a big deal anymore since DW is native, but its still not the 1st 2 hits. And i didnt mean that everyone should know it and your dumb, i was only pointing out that its been known for years so you dont have to go personally verify and reinvent the wheel on old stuff.

---

Well, apparently I do because much of what you said is not correct. It does always work on the first two hits, even when single-wielding. Show me one screenshot of a single-wielded SA/TA'd Shark Bite returning less than 6 TP. I just tested it with Fast Blade and I never got less than 7 TP return, but I got plenty of 6TP returns without it. Much of what you think is "known" is often "guessed" or sometimes "misinterpreted". Ask people what's known about TH and they will tell you everything from "it doesn't do anything" to "it guarantees every third drop but only if you're wearing a subligar and are facing towards the mothercrystal".

Also, about TP return when dual wielding, the first two hits return full TP. This is undisputable fact and can be very easily tested. To my knowledge, it's currently believed that the offhand hit occurs right after the mainhand hit (something I don't subscribe to myself yet), hence the second full TP return would be from the offhand hit. However, personally I think people just assumed the offhand hit to occur right after the mainhand hit because of the TP return of the second hit. I have found no testing supporting either theory, and unless that can be provided somehow I'll get on to testing that myself soon.

So, either way, current testing fully supports the theory that the rule is simply "first two hits of a WS" for the accuracy boost from SA/TA, even when single-wielding and even when the second hit is the offhand hit, as may very well be the case.

Any word yet if TH11 is the cap? Since 5/5 Feint merits would be 100% chance of increasing TH and the recast is 5min, can it be possible to see if TH11 is the cap by feinting every 5 min for about 30min with base TH7 on test server?

Feint is 2min recast. Also, TH11 was never a cap considering the TH12 pics out there. But maybe we could prove them to be fake pics? lol i never saw th12 i think.

The real question, since i haven't read anything and stopped playing yet again, is whether feint is 100% TH proc at the feinting hit or a double proc rate while it's effect is up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laphine

Feint is 2min recast. Also, TH11 was never a cap considering the TH12 pics out there. But maybe we could prove them to be fake pics? lol i never saw th12 i think.

---

Pretty sure it's uncapped. I don't know where people get 11 from, when there's been tons of reports going to 13 and higher, there's a few screenshots with 14+ about (even on this forum somewhere).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laphine

The real question, since i haven't read anything and stopped playing yet again, is whether feint is 100% TH proc at the feinting hit or a double proc rate while it's effect is up.

---

That is the big question, currently. Personally I think it's the latter. I don't think SE will actually make it increase TH so readily, this would lead to big abuse (like on Behemoth). Could get 5 THF to increase TH to 30 in ten minutes, which sounds just ridiculous. Although if it had a cap, this would definitely be the way to find out.