[dev1080] Thief - Assassin's Charge/feint proposed Adjustments

[Arcon]

I would rather have a decent boost to triple attack damage instead. This (hopefully) would affect the damage of the main hit of a ws, making it much more juicy.

It would likely work like DA and TA and just add another melee round of the main weapon in the mix. Which, I have to say, sounds pretty awesome to me, I have no idea why people are not psyched about this. I'm pretty sure I'll keep 5/5 AC and maybe 5/5 AS, depending on how shitty the TH adjustment for Feint will be.

[Laphine]

You mean instead of 3 hits we would have, idk, 6? lol Certainly it would be awesome, but by Motenten's words it doesn't sound like that at all for me.

"Instead of -2:30 to the reuse timer, additional merits add 5% to the chance that you'll quadruple attack rather than just triple attack."

But if an AC triple attack had a chance to proc a quadruple, it would be very interesting indeed. Otherwise we are talking about a single extra hit worth of damage every 25min of AC usage.

[Arcon]

You mean instead of 3 hits we would have, idk, 6? lol Certainly it would be awesome, but by Motenten's words it doesn't sound like that at all for me.

Huh? Why not? I don't see him say anything about it.

But if an AC triple attack had a chance to proc a quadruple, it would be very interesting indeed. Otherwise we are talking about a single extra hit worth of damage every 25min of AC usage.

A single extra hit worth of damage every 5min (why 25min?). Doesn't sound too bad to me. What if AC would give the next WS a 15% damage boost? Because that's about what it boils down to, even more depending on WS.

[Laphine]

I considered that the QA replaces TA back there. 20% chance to get a quadruple it's 1 QA every 5 ACs. 1 lousy extra hit in 25min. Now if the QA is procd from the TA, we would have 3 extra hits every 25min. Much better.

[Arcon]

I considered that the QA replaces TA back there. 20% chance to get a quadruple it's 1 QA every 5 ACs. 1 lousy extra hit in 25min. Now if the QA is procd from the TA, we would have 3 extra hits every 25min. Much better.

I see, talking averages. And I maintain that this is better than the alternative (accuracy boost). Assassin's Charge is a pretty small bonus in itself, if you think about it, this is still quite nice.

[Aana]

I guess that, relatively speaking, I'm still new to the THF scene. I didn't have a DD pre-2009 and only leveled THF later that year, and I've never once been DD/THF, so none of that was known to me. However, it seems you're the one overcomplicating things now. It seems pretty obvious and simple: SA/TA guarantee the first two hits of a weapon skill to land. There's no need for any distinction by cases.

I realize it sounds nitpicky, but its just not quite the same thing. 2hand is 1st 2 hits. 1hand is just the 1st hit (IE sharkbite single wield doesnt land both hits, or evis or anything else), UNLESS you DW and then it gets the stats of your offhand instead of your mainhand for the second 100% hit. Its not a big deal anymore since DW is native, but its still not the 1st 2 hits. And i didnt mean that everyone should know it and your dumb, i was only pointing out that its been known for years so you dont have to go personally verify and reinvent the wheel on old stuff.
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On topic, the quad attack is ok i guess. I would be flabberghasted if it actually added an additional 3 hits BEYOND the 2 that TA gives. I would suspect that it just makes the triple into a quad and nothing more. We do still have the 8hit limitation to deal with which would make it worthless on things like evis/DE that is already5+1 hit normally (DW) and 8 with just a normal TA. Even on 4+1 Exenterator a quad atack on 1st hit would prevent a TA on the offhand hit which is actually a bit of a kick in the teeth.

I wouldnt really loose any sleep over a 20% shot every 5 min to land 1 extra hit (that can miss) on a WS unless you are a Twash/Mandau thf as those WS have monster mods and only 1+1 hit base so it wont overwrite a TA proc on the offhand. QA+TA=7hit rudra/mercy.....that sounds kinda nice for some screenies, even though it has little effect on overall DOT as a thf.

Honestly, none of our merit 'adjustments' do anything really awesome. But the adjustments do take the 'cookie cutter' effect away. You can stick 1 in everything then whatever the F you want after that since none are so game breaking that you MUST HAZ EET. I do like that aspect of a little customization, even if minor.

[Arcon]

I realize it sounds nitpicky, but its just not quite the same thing. 2hand is 1st 2 hits. 1hand is just the 1st hit (IE sharkbite single wield doesnt land both hits, or evis or anything else), UNLESS you DW and then it gets the stats of your offhand instead of your mainhand for the second 100% hit. Its not a big deal anymore since DW is native, but its still not the 1st 2 hits. And i didnt mean that everyone should know it and your dumb, i was only pointing out that its been known for years so you dont have to go personally verify and reinvent the wheel on old stuff.

Well, apparently I do because much of what you said is not correct. It does always work on the first two hits, even when single-wielding. Show me one screenshot of a single-wielded SA/TA'd Shark Bite returning less than 6 TP. I just tested it with Fast Blade and I never got less than 7 TP return, but I got plenty of 6TP returns without it. Much of what you think is "known" is often "guessed" or sometimes "misinterpreted". Ask people what's known about TH and they will tell you everything from "it doesn't do anything" to "it guarantees every third drop but only if you're wearing a subligar and are facing towards the mothercrystal".

Also, about TP return when dual wielding, the first two hits return full TP. This is undisputable fact and can be very easily tested. To my knowledge, it's currently believed that the offhand hit occurs right after the mainhand hit (something I don't subscribe to myself yet), hence the second full TP return would be from the offhand hit. However, personally I think people just assumed the offhand hit to occur right after the mainhand hit because of the TP return of the second hit. I have found no testing supporting either theory, and unless that can be provided somehow I'll get on to testing that myself soon.

So, either way, current testing fully supports the theory that the rule is simply "first two hits of a WS" for the accuracy boost from SA/TA, even when single-wielding and even when the second hit is the offhand hit, as may very well be the case.

[Ophannus]

Any word yet if TH11 is the cap? Since 5/5 Feint merits would be 100% chance of increasing TH and the recast is 5min, can it be possible to see if TH11 is the cap by feinting every 5 min for about 30min with base TH7 on test server?

[Laphine]

Feint is 2min recast. Also, TH11 was never a cap considering the TH12 pics out there. But maybe we could prove them to be fake pics? lol i never saw th12 i think.

The real question, since i haven't read anything and stopped playing yet again, is whether feint is 100% TH proc at the feinting hit or a double proc rate while it's effect is up.

[Arcon]

Feint is 2min recast. Also, TH11 was never a cap considering the TH12 pics out there. But maybe we could prove them to be fake pics? lol i never saw th12 i think.

Pretty sure it's uncapped. I don't know where people get 11 from, when there's been tons of reports going to 13 and higher, there's a few screenshots with 14+ about (even on this forum somewhere).

The real question, since i haven't read anything and stopped playing yet again, is whether feint is 100% TH proc at the feinting hit or a double proc rate while it's effect is up.

That is the big question, currently. Personally I think it's the latter. I don't think SE will actually make it increase TH so readily, this would lead to big abuse (like on Behemoth). Could get 5 THF to increase TH to 30 in ten minutes, which sounds just ridiculous. Although if it had a cap, this would definitely be the way to find out.