Hey remember SC > MB? Make it required.

Having SCs auto increase lights in VW without a stagger would be kinda kewl.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Having SCs auto increase lights in VW without a stagger would be kinda kewl.

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Not really, take the ability to red stagger out of mages hands and what's the point of bringing any that's not a whm? more so what's the point of bringing anything other than cors and sams?

stop being lazy and just type not everyone wants to hear another guys voice or w/e i dont i perfer typeing

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Skillchains were also being fully resisted by Pil too, to stay on topic. 1.5k Wildfire closed a 91 damage Darkness, and the Light SCs that the Mnk was self-SC'ing weren't doing much better.

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probably because you're making a skillchain that doesn't fit the monster's weakness, had you made light, it would have yielded fire or wind damage which is a caturae's weakness.

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Originally Posted by Phafi

probably because you're making a skillchain that doesn't fit the monster's weakness, had you made light, it would have yielded fire or wind damage which is a caturae's weakness.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Skillchains were also being fully resisted by Pil too, to stay on topic. 1.5k Wildfire closed a 91 damage Darkness, and the Light SCs that the Mnk was self-SC'ing weren't doing much better.

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Small sample size, obviously, but I certainly didn't see any full damage lights go off.

SC+MB with a horde of BLMs works under the assumption that black mages can do more and/or safer damage than melees. In practice, they certainly don't do more damage than melees, and I don't feel that they offer much additional safety either.

Someone's going to be tanking it, so there will always be a couple melees in range of things no matter what setup you use. Beyond that, as long as melees are only consistently in when they have Fanatic's up, black mages really aren't much safer than standard DDs. Their range grants them the ability to continue to DD without needing Fanatic's, but BLM damage alone isn't really able to hold a candle to Empyrean DDs or especially Corsairs that are rocking Discipline+Coercion+Tactician's+Miser's+Monarch's+Braver's+Stalwart's+the Crit one even if they're (aside from the COR) limited to only zerging when Fanatic's is up.

The Magic Burst +30% atmacite could be interesting, but again would require such a BLM-heavy setup that it's probably not worth doing - especially considering how many procs you lose out on by both ditching melees and having Blms use damage spells rather than proc spells.

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Originally Posted by Shinzonx

stop being lazy and just type not everyone wants to hear another guys voice or w/e i dont i perfer typeing

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Um... what?

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

playing well

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Biggest misconception ever. Right on par with EXP grinding at 5k/hr 1-75 is required to learn how to play a job.

Skillchains don't have a skill aspect. It's so easy, a caveman could do it.

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Originally Posted by Brolic

Not really, take the ability to red stagger out of mages hands and what's the point of bringing any that's not a whm? more so what's the point of bringing anything other than cors and sams?

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You would still need to stagger for temps and I'm not talking about a 20% increase. Maybe 3-5% per SC. Maybe make it so SCs add blue and MBs add red. Most of your lights would still come from staggers but if you were 8% from cap and couldn't find that tasty proc you could just set up an SC or 2.

what are you suggestion lvl 4 skillchain ? cosmic evultions

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

91 damage Darkness skillchains, and the Light SCs weren't doing much better.

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Originally Posted by Phafi

probably because you're making a skillchain that doesn't fit the monster's weakness, had you made light, it would have yielded fire or wind damage which is a caturae's weakness.

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This is my favorite part of the thread.

The idea of seeing a new proc system for skillchain/mb makes me ;;

More mobs like Qutrubs/AMK moogles meaning you get quad DMG skillchains and double magic burst bonus making these mobs drop fast for those clever enough to exploit this weakness is the way to go.

Outside that i still solo skillchain and mb on SCH and i see BLUs skillchaining like crazy still so i don't think it's dead.

Not to mention sekkoni WS x2 > Light or darkness = wrecked mob is awesome still :)

FFXI evolved and changed for better or worse.

Anyone that says that SC+MB *always* sucked is an absolute moron.

They definitely had a very important place in the past.

If the math gurus have gone out and done serious hard number crunching with actual experiments (not anecdotes) and have determined that everyone spamming WS as soon as TP hits 100% is a far better Damage Over Time then setting up SCs then so be it. The game evolved away from SCs.

Anybody want to post those hard numbers? Or is everyone just pissing in the wind about what is really better?

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Originally Posted by Sappho

FFXI evolved and changed for better or worse.

Anyone that says that SC+MB *always* sucked is an absolute moron.

They definitely had a very important place in the past.

If the math gurus have gone out and done serious hard number crunching with actual experiments (not anecdotes) and have determined that everyone spamming WS as soon as TP hits 100% is a far better Damage Over Time then setting up SCs then so be it. The game evolved away from SCs.

Anybody want to post those hard numbers? Or is everyone just pissing in the wind about what is really better?

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It's a pretty simple concept to follow on paper. I've not seen skillchain damage in forever so if the numbers are for it I'll be all for it. That said, consider the following scenario.

2 DDs, one has a 6-hit build while the other has a 5-hit build.

By the time the DD with the 6-hit build reaches 100 TP, the other DD will be sitting on 120 TP. Let us further assume for the sake of argument that each DD's weaponskill inflicts 2,000 damage. That 20 TP overflow could have been put towards a second weaponskill, so in order to keep pace the skillchain will need to inflict at least 20% of the weaponskill's damage.
2,000 damage * (0.20) = 400 damage
That's just for a basic skillchain with two DDs, and that's just to break even. To be superior it would need to exceed 400 damage.

Now throw in more DDs, single-handed weapons, and human error. Every component increases the damage the skillchain needs to achieve in order to be the superior battle tactic.

With anecdotes of skillchains dealing less than 100 damage, it seems unlikely that the math will favor it, but I'm willing to change my tune if there's some hard data to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

This is the pertinent comment. For anyone who doesn't understand it, here is a bit of explanation:

The only situations I see people use Skillchains or Magic Bursts anymore is either self-chains or groups playing around or showing off.

The reason for this is very clear - while a skillchain does allow for more damage, which is excellent if you can pull off a self-skillchain, very rarely does TP in a party match up so that people can blast weapon skills at the exactly right time, and the damage from waiting for a skillchain or using a weapon skill with a little bit of extra TP simply does not match up enough in many situations to justify putting the effort into a skillchain.

If people really want Skillchains + Magic Bursts to be more viable, there either has to be more damage or other effects from performing them all around, and a better reward for using a weapon skill without having to hit one of the 100/200/300 TP marks exactly.

There are a ton of suggestions that could be made to this end, like having a level four skillchain that requires three skillchains (so players can't self-skillchain it) or making magic bursts boost the potency of -ja style spells. Posting these would be more helpful then simply "making SC+MB neccisary for a victory" by far.

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The only way to bring SC > MB back for general purposes is to make Sekkanoki a permanent passive trait.

(note that this would be a horrible idea and would not actually succeed in bringing back SC > MB)

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Originally Posted by Camiie

I try to skillchain when possible, but I'd never go out of my way to do so. Hey, I'm horrible at math, and I don't understand all the damage formulas but I know things go better when I just use my most powerful WS and my fellow DDs do the same. If we happen to skillchain then awesome! Bonus damage! If the mage happens to MB off of us, sweet! Even more bonus damage! If we all hold our TP and MP waiting for that magic moment... no.

I'm sure others here could figure it out, but I can't imagine how much damage they'd have to add to the skillchains and MB bonus themselves to make them worth doing.

Of course, what I really wanted to say to the OP is... your avatar is really, really pretty! I mean... my gosh... I love your hair! And your eyes! And... you have the best complexion.. Well I could just say you have the prettiest face ever... and...wait I did already... oh, I should stop! Sorry! Got carried away! Um... /blush... yeah anyway... bye!

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IDK, yours is pretty amazing as well. I might have to dye mine's hair to go darker at some point *laughs*.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Biggest misconception ever. Right on par with EXP grinding at 5k/hr 1-75 is required to learn how to play a job.

Skillchains don't have a skill aspect. It's so easy, a caveman could do it.

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There is no misconception about it. I've seen plenty of people who have no idea how to do a SC properly, much less what it will make. I get that you don't like SC > MB but at least don't talk like an opinion is a fact, when what we are talking about is an opinion.

My opinion is that SCing and team work are aspects of online game play that I appreciate and keep me interested and invested in playing. Your "fact" that SCing doesn't always yield more damage is legitimate, but it does nothing to address the current state of the game that boils down to an extremely stale and boring proc system. If you like a proc system that doesn't rely on actual player cooperation, then why are you playing online with other people? I would much rather make SCs than spam moves that have no actual purpose in teaching anyone to play better in a cooperative manner.

SCs are about actual synergy between people, where as this proc system is about nothing more than bringing the right ingredients to a fight and mashing them into the pot. There is nothing interesting or additive to the experience. I expect more from a game that actually had good game play for majority of it's first 75 levels.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

It's a pretty simple concept to follow on paper. I've not seen skillchain damage in forever so if the numbers are for it I'll be all for it. That said, consider the following scenario.

2 DDs, one has a 6-hit build while the other has a 5-hit build.

By the time the DD with the 6-hit build reaches 100 TP, the other DD will be sitting on 120 TP. Let us further assume for the sake of argument that each DD's weaponskill inflicts 2,000 damage. That 20 TP overflow could have been put towards a second weaponskill, so in order to keep pace the skillchain will need to inflict at least 20% of the weaponskill's damage.
2,000 damage * (0.20) = 400 damage
That's just for a basic skillchain with two DDs, and that's just to break even. To be superior it would need to exceed 400 damage.

Now throw in more DDs, single-handed weapons, and human error. Every component increases the damage the skillchain needs to achieve in order to be the superior battle tactic.

With anecdotes of skillchains dealing less than 100 damage, it seems unlikely that the math will favor it, but I'm willing to change my tune if there's some hard data to the contrary.

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I mean that is what I'm talking about. SCs and MBs actually doing more damage so that they would be worth it to even the math crunchiest of peoples.

I get that data crunching is fun for some people and they only care about the most efficient strategy, trust me I do. But for the rest of us that actually realize that we are playing a game and actually want to be able to enjoy it, we would really like additive game play that isn't just about data crunching. We would like to have an enjoyable and memorable experience; and that just isn't made out of pretending we are machines.

Watching mobs blow up in front of you from cooperative effort is my favorite memory from early FFXI. Sure the story lines are good and character building is fun, but some of the game play is starting to get sour.

If people actually don't know how to Skillchain, are they having trouble figuring out that pants no go on head too?

@Sappho, I'm honestly too lazy to redo math that was done years ago to appease this discussion. I'll admit it. I'm lazy, and I have no vested interest in it. However, if you want a synopsis, skillchains suffer from lowest common denominator syndrome.

Skillchains decrease or nullify the value of x-hits and additional attacks (DA, TA) on WS damage because, no matter how fast Player A gets TP, they will always have to wait for Player B to get TP before they can weaponskill. If Player A gets two triple attacks in a row on WAR, while Player B misses twice in a row, Player A will be sitting at 300 TP before Player B is ready to skillchain with him.

Beyond that, Skillchains require the entire party/alliance to stop and hold their TP for the assigned pair to skillchain, a matter which can take 4-5 seconds on its own, or longer if there is a magic burst involved. People are sitting on their hands over nothing.

As for the past, no. Skillchains were never, ever good. People did them. That didn't mean they were good. People did Skillchains because people did not understand how the game worked. People also hunted IT+++++++++ monsters for EXP, and thought 5k/hr was epic JP button godmode exp.

Skillchains phased out because people got better at the game, not worse. Reminisce about the good old days all you want. That doesn't mean that running Kirin around with an Earth Staff Paladin for 6 hours was ever a bloody good idea.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If people actually don't know how to Skillchain, are they having trouble figuring out that pants no go on head too?

@Sappho, I'm honestly too lazy to redo math that was done years ago to appease this discussion. I'll admit it. I'm lazy, and I have no vested interest in it. However, if you want a synopsis, skillchains suffer from lowest common denominator syndrome.

Skillchains decrease or nullify the value of x-hits and additional attacks (DA, TA) on WS damage because, no matter how fast Player A gets TP, they will always have to wait for Player B to get TP before they can weaponskill. If Player A gets two triple attacks in a row on WAR, while Player B misses twice in a row, Player A will be sitting at 300 TP before Player B is ready to skillchain with him.

Beyond that, Skillchains require the entire party/alliance to stop and hold their TP for the assigned pair to skillchain, a matter which can take 4-5 seconds on its own, or longer if there is a magic burst involved. People are sitting on their hands over nothing.

As for the past, no. Skillchains were never, ever good. People did them. That didn't mean they were good. People did Skillchains because people did not understand how the game worked. People also hunted IT+++++++++ monsters for EXP, and thought 5k/hr was epic JP button godmode exp.

Skillchains phased out because people got better at the game, not worse. Reminisce about the good old days all you want. That doesn't mean that running Kirin around with an Earth Staff Paladin for 6 hours was ever a bloody good idea.

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I killed several mobs with skillchains faster than any damn party you could have put together other than a ranger burn. I am not sure exactly what game you were playing back in 03-04 but it wasn't the same one I was. People didn't get BETTER they got over buffed to compensate for the jobs being weak(mostly just people saying they got tired of chipping away HP on mobs).

I have read so many of your post and i agree on some but on this topic you are completely off base. When exactly did you start playing this game to have such an opinion about this? I was plane hacking 16,000 exp/hour on smn with a bst on pets, on my first character, when this 5k/hr was epic but that didn't mean the majority of the time on regular mobs it was shit. I also never had a party with any job kill as fast as a distortion/freeze(while leveling) death either.

There were gimmick ways to do things but the majority of the time it wasn't easy because of all this upgraded crap SE has thrown our way. I would challenge most of you to fight Fafnir/Tiamat/Vrtra/etc back at 75 before any of the good updates to jobs were introduced ( This means no guilo/penta 60TP type things/etc). It would be epic just how GOOD people think they are now to see how much has changed.

I want to get back to cooperation and team play. SC should be brought back into play like mentioned above. This zerg fest full time needs taken out and team work put back into the playing style. I saw this style coming to fruitation as K club came into existence then even more when they started huge buffing after 2 handed update. The game IMO has went to hell since then.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

As for the past, no. Skillchains were never, ever good. People did them. That didn't mean they were good. People did Skillchains because people did not understand how the game worked.

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You were around during the NA release in October 2003? I'm not saying the past is better than the present and I frankly don't give a fig leaf about going back.

**But** back in the days where you had a fixed party of the same six players leveling together (because everyone had to be the same level) the party format was typically: PLD, WHM, BLM, BRD/RDM, DD, DD.

The only people that had to worry about the Skill Chain rotation were the two DD. If one of the two DD couldn't get his shit together so that both were building TP at the same rate then you kicked his ass to the curb and found someone that didn't suck.

Once WoW came along and every game company in the world wanted to dumb down their shit to the zerg mentality so that they could have an MMO with ten million subscribers, then everything changed.

I never had to sit in Jeuno for six hours with my party flag up waiting for a group. Because I was awesome.

But I quit right before COP launched to go play WoW and farm purplez six nights a week in the same lame ass raid zone. Wheeeee!!!!!

Would I like FFXI to return to the much more difficult days of the past?
Let me try Abyssea for six months and I'll get back to you. I still haven't seen those areas.

I've been playing since windows release in October 2003.

People got better.

Want to know the biggest thing people finally got through their heads years after the game was released?

Fighting IT++++++++ monsters as an EXP party is pants on head retarded.

DDs didn't get uberbuffs out of nowhere. They just started targeting VT monsters which gave them tons more EXP/hour and weren't flooring their Accuracy and Ratio.

Tiamat and Fafnir were also always piss easy, even before the 2H buff. Vrtra was only ever really difficult because of his pets, area aggro, and charm - which meant bringing a larger number of people. Most shells with the requisite numbers were capable of killing him, hell most still are, it's just rarely worth it. Besides, nowadays he's always down because BSTs solo him for the Cashmere.

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Originally Posted by Sappho

You were around during the NA release in October 2003? I'm not saying the past is better than the present and I frankly don't give a fig leaf about going back.

**But** back in the days where you had a fixed party of the same six players leveling together (because everyone had to be the same level) the party format was typically: PLD, WHM, BLM, BRD/RDM, DD, DD.

The only people that had to worry about the Skill Chain rotation were the two DD. If one of the two DD couldn't get his shit together so that both were building TP at the same rate then you kicked his ass to the curb and found someone that didn't suck.

Once WoW came along and every game company in the world wanted to dumb down their shit to the zerg mentality so that they could have an MMO with ten million subscribers, then everything changed.

I never had to sit in Jeuno for six hours with my party flag up waiting for a group. Because I was awesome.

But I quit right before COP launched to go play WoW and farm purplez six nights a week in the same lame ass raid zone. Wheeeee!!!!!

Would I like FFXI to return to the much more difficult days of the past?
Let me try Abyssea for six months and I'll get back to you. I still haven't seen those areas.

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You are going to be so disappointed if you are expecting something hard or team fights like before. It is fun for low groups and while i agree on some aspects of the game now is better than the past. I don't like things SE have done to take team work out and let it be a TP/zerg game.

=/ Fight Pil. He's legitimately difficult and requires a team effort. Abyssea isn't the whole game, it's just the casual game.

Voidwatch could definitely use some drop system tweaks to be worth the time for more people, though. I only do it because it's fun.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I've been playing since windows release in October 2003.

People got better.

Want to know the biggest thing people finally got through their heads years after the game was released?

Fighting IT++++++++ monsters as an EXP party is pants on head retarded.

DDs didn't get uberbuffs out of nowhere. They just started targeting VT monsters which gave them tons more EXP/hour and weren't flooring their Accuracy and Ratio.

Tiamat and Fafnir were also always piss easy, even before the 2H buff. Vrtra was only ever really difficult because of his pets, area aggro, and charm - which meant bringing a larger number of people. Most shells with the requisite numbers were capable of killing him, hell most still are, it's just rarely worth it. Besides, nowadays he's always down because BSTs solo him for the Cashmere.

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How exactly are you going to sit there and compare this overbuffed shit we get now to back then on those mobs?

EDIT: I never thought they were the GODS of FFXI but to say they were "easy" in the same sentence as "easy" abyssea/VW shit is seems crazy talk.

Now you're just comparing apples to oranges.

If you knew people that were still fighting IT+++++ monsters in EXP parties when CoP came out, then I guess *those* people got smarter.

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together quickly figured out that if it took 5 minutes to kill one 200 EXP monster, but you could kill ten 100 EXP monsters in the same time...well DUUUHHHH!!!!! No shit Sherlock.

But we were talking about Skill Chains. But if the people that were playing on your server couldn't do the math on IT+ monsters then it is small wonder that they couldn't get it together for SCs.

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Originally Posted by Chriscoffey

You are going to be so disappointed if you are expecting something hard or team fights like before. It is fun for low groups and while i agree on some aspects of the game now is better than the past. I don't like things SE have done to take team work out and let it be a TP/zerg game.

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Honestly, after reading these forums for the month that I have been back, I debated even buying the Abyssea expansions.

Again: No one is incapable of doing SCs unless they are seriously mentally handicapped. They're just worthless.

Back on the point you missed: Skillchains and MBs are comparable to fighting IT monsters. Sure, bonus damage (bonus exp). But in the meantime you could have done 10 other monsters (10 other WS) and gotten way more exp (done way more damage).

SC+MB also loses value on VT monsters because they die so quickly. The old Distortion>Freeze combo to nearly one-shot things was fun for a while, I guess, but it was never an optimal way to kill things.

@Buffs, no I know that players have definitely received better gear and buffs in general since the inception of the game, but a large portion of our progress came from the fact that people like Kaeko, Motenten, and Kirschy sat down and determined how the game worked and what our stats are doing for us. Even in 2004-2005 conditions, if we would have known then what we know now, things would not be nearly so hard as they were perceived to be.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Again: No one is incapable of doing SCs unless they are seriously mentally handicapped. They're just worthless.

Back on the point you missed: Skillchains and MBs are comparable to fighting IT monsters. Sure, bonus damage (bonus exp). But in the meantime you could have done 10 other monsters (10 other WS) and gotten way more exp (done way more damage).

SC+MB also loses value on VT monsters because they die so quickly. The old Distortion>Freeze combo to nearly one-shot things was fun for a while, I guess, but it was never an optimal way to kill things.

@Buffs, no I know that players have definitely received better gear and buffs in general since the inception of the game, but a large portion of our progress came from the fact that people like Kaeko, Motenten, and Kirschy sat down and determined how the game worked and what our stats are doing for us. Even in 2004-2005 conditions, if we would have known then what we know now, things would not be nearly so hard as they were perceived to be.

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See i agree with you on that point , however, there is this looming "We're dead" feeling every time I think about fighting HNM before and it's mainly due to the fact you don't chip away mobs HP anymore. When i can see a mob that suppose to be the cream of the crop HP going down 20% in less than a minute but knowing that didn't happen before it irks me to believe your "easy" mode of today is even close to back then. You chipped away mobs HP and even in doing that it was with teamwork with other people not the zerg fest way because it just wasn't much of an option that I can remember was available. I never was in a party of 15 rangers so i couldn't tell you about that.

That really just comes down to people not knowing how in the world to mine for fish back in the day.

If we level synced to 75, threw on 75-only gear/weapons, and went to kill HNMs, we'd still wreck them faster than we used to because we know how their stats work and how our stats work. We know what's good and what isn't, and how to optimize ourselves.

Dnc gets +33% SC damage with AF3+2 hands. Sam gets 16%. Mnk and nin get 12%.

So, suppose I close light on mnk with a 2k Smite, or close darkness on dnc with a 1.5k Evis. Dnc's evis generates a potential 2k darkness, and the 2k Smite generates a potential 2240 light. How much time is that worth waiting for?

Mnk with Smite is generally around 60/40 melee/ws split, so the Light SC is worth about 45% of a ws cycle. That means that if it took me 20 seconds to get TP for the ws, with that Light SC I could stop meleeing for 9 seconds and keep the same DPS as if I didn't sc at all.

If you figure the dnc is at a 70/30 melee/ws split, the Darkness SC is worth about 40% of a ws cycle. 8 seconds out of 20, if they were at the same pace as the mnk.


Next, how much does your DPS go down if you hold TP?

Mnk (Smite), 0.5 over-TP rounds (default agressive play): 262 DPS, 6 rounds/weaponskill.
Add 3 rounds for holding to ~150 TP, so 3.5 over-TP rounds: 236 DPS

Lost 10% of total DPS by holding TP to skillchain.

Add a Light SC's worth of damage to the 3.5 over-TP config: 329 DPS
Add a Fragmentation SC's worth of damage: 292 DPS

Total DPS went up by 11% (Frag) to 25% (Light) by waiting to skillchain. (Applying this to the one closing the skillchain, since they're the ones that need to wait, rather than splitting between the two jobs.)

Dnc obviously gets the most out of it, while mnk/sam/nin just get a nice little boost. Other jobs don't get that boost, but the difference isn't large enough that they wouldn't see roughly the same results as the above example.


People forget about melee damage when considering SC penalties. You've slowed your weaponskill down by a few rounds, but those few rounds also did damage themselves.

The *primary* problem with skillchains is resists. When SCs only do about 1/10 of their potential damage, they are certainly not worth it. This is compounded by the blink problem, where the SC isn't animated and damage isn't displayed if you gear swap on the weaponskill. Because there's no reliable way to see how much damage is being done, people tend to ignore it altogether, on the assumption that it probably got resisted to near nothing anyway.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

That really just comes down to people not knowing how in the world to mine for fish back in the day.

If we level synced to 75, threw on 75-only gear/weapons, and went to kill HNMs, we'd still wreck them faster than we used to because we know how their stats work and how our stats work. We know what's good and what isn't, and how to optimize ourselves.

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I really don't think i would do that much better. I was playing mostly mage and remember my melee in party being shit for damage no matter which melee came into party. Dark knight actually was great for damage however they couldn't hit anything due to accuracy problems. There wasn't food or good gear to adjust them properly. This was the typical problem for most things melee related considering that if you had 1 more of any attribute you were a god over someone else. I can remember them not wanting me in a party because i couldn't afford morion earrings back then. I just don't accept its because we are so much smarter,as much as, over boosted compensation.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Dnc gets +33% SC damage with AF3+2 hands. Sam gets 16%. Mnk and nin get 12%.

So, suppose I close light on mnk with a 2k Smite, or close darkness on dnc with a 1.5k Evis. Dnc's evis generates a potential 2k darkness, and the 2k Smite generates a potential 2240 light. How much time is that worth waiting for?

Mnk with Smite is generally around 60/40 melee/ws split, so the Light SC is worth about 45% of a ws cycle. That means that if it took me 20 seconds to get TP for the ws, with that Light SC I could stop meleeing for 9 seconds and keep the same DPS as if I didn't ws at all.

If you figure the dnc is at a 70/30 melee/ws split, the Darkness SC is worth about 40% of a ws cycle. 8 seconds out of 20, if they were at the same pace as the mnk.


Next, how much does your DPS go down if you hold TP?

Mnk (Smite), 0.5 over-TP rounds (default agressive play): 262 DPS, 6 rounds/weaponskill.
Add 3 rounds for holding to ~150 TP, so 3.5 over-TP rounds: 236 DPS

Lost 10% of total DPS by holding TP to skillchain.

Add a Light SC's worth of damage to the 3.5 over-TP config: 329 DPS
Add a Fragmentation SC's worth of damage: 292 DPS

Total DPS went up by 11% (Frag) to 25% (Light) by waiting to skillchain. (Applying this to the one closing the skillchain, since they're the ones that need to wait, rather than splitting between the two jobs.)

Dnc obviously gets the most out of it, while mnk/sam/nin just get a nice little boost. Other jobs don't get that boost, but the difference isn't large enough that they wouldn't see roughly the same results as the above example.


People forget about melee damage when considering SC penalties. You've slowed your weaponskill down by a few rounds, but those few rounds also did damage themselves.

The *primary* problem with skillchains is resists. When SCs only do about 1/10 of their potential damage, they are certainly not worth it. This is compounded by the blink problem, where the SC isn't animated and damage isn't displayed if you gear swap on the weaponskill. Because there's no reliable way to see how much damage is being done, people tend to ignore it altogether, on the assumption that it probably got resisted to near nothing anyway.

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We aren't stupid to believe SC NOW are always going to be better than zerg, however, what we are trying to portray is the simple fact that everyone now is on this zerg mentality after it's introduction. This means to hell with teamwork on a higher level and just TP spamming the fuck out of everything. I didn't say SC are harder but they are harder to do than just button pressing one after another without pausing to see what is going on.

I really believe reintroducing SC back at some form on HNM and teamwork is what FFXI was really about not zerging full time. I am just sitting and waiting to see what the 99 stuff will be about. I don't want another procing system but i would like a more detailed type of SC weakness on mobs where like in hydra cutting off its heads takes away huge regen of HP/etc. I am hoping they can do something similar with SC that is fair enough for most of the jobs which makes teamwork at the forefront of a HNM fight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Back on the point you missed: Skillchains and MBs are comparable to fighting IT monsters. Sure, bonus damage (bonus exp). But in the meantime you could have done 10 other monsters (10 other WS) and gotten way more exp (done way more damage).

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It doesn't have to be that way.
Clearly I'm shouting at the wind.

I started to write a long example of the way my old static group used to do SCs, but then I realized there's no fucking point. Those days are gone.

Just TP zerg everything to oblivion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

As for the past, no. Skillchains were never, ever good. People did them. That didn't mean they were good. People did Skillchains because people did not understand how the game worked. People also hunted IT+++++++++ monsters for EXP, and thought 5k/hr was epic JP button godmode exp.

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TO

BE

FAIR

back in the day enough people played the game and were leveling concurrently to severely overcrowd most level-appropriate camps that were not

1) peppered with shit like undead or overleveled goblins or other assorted nonsense that could wipe you and set you back like 20 minutes provided you could even recover at all, or

2) out in the middle of goddamn nowhere (looking directly at you, Altepa), so any benefit of more level-appropriate, nonthreatening mobs was immediately counterbalanced by the fact that the only tank in your level range doesn't have the telepoint and rrrrggjhhwdrvgilophvipr

so, wailing away at IT+azillion sort of made sense in that there weren't enough mobs to really support the kind of low-VT-mulching the game had always been designed for in the places where you could reasonably expect to get to with random mouthbreathers; this, more than "skill", was why static XP parties with friends were useful.

Otherwise, U RAPPIN: GOOD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sappho

It doesn't have to be that way.
Clearly I'm shouting at the wind.

I started to write a long example of the way my old static group used to do SCs, but then I realized there's no fucking point. Those days are gone.

Just TP zerg everything to oblivion.

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That is pretty much what I'm saying because nobody wants teamwork apparently on an MMO just epeen numbers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Total DPS went up by 11% (Frag) to 25% (Light) by waiting to skillchain. (Applying this to the one closing the skillchain, since they're the ones that need to wait, rather than splitting between the two jobs.)

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Motenten, I love you so much right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by scaevola

TO

BE

FAIR

back in the day enough people played the game and were leveling concurrently to severely overcrowd most level-appropriate camps that were not

1) peppered with shit like undead or overleveled goblins or other assorted nonsense that could wipe you and set you back like 20 minutes provided you could even recover at all, or

2) out in the middle of goddamn nowhere (looking directly at you, Altepa), so any benefit of more level-appropriate, nonthreatening mobs was immediately counterbalanced by the fact that the only tank in your level range doesn't have the telepoint and rrrrggjhhwdrvgilophvipr

so, wailing away at IT+azillion sort of made sense in that there weren't enough mobs to really support the kind of low-VT-mulching the game had always been designed for in the places where you could reasonably expect to get to with random mouthbreathers; this, more than "skill", was why static XP parties with friends were useful.

Otherwise, U RAPPIN: GOOD

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I remember a goblin in yhoater epic wiping like 30 people that zoned in. I miss some of those old days. I never laughed so hard in my life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sappho

Motenten, I love you so much right now.

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Yeah but it will vary accordingly. I just find that most people are so into this TP spam they don't want to change playing style to even consider teamwork in SC again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chriscoffey

I remember a goblin in yhoater epic wiping like 30 people that zoned in. I miss some of those old days. I never laughed so hard in my life.

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The Yuhtunga Bouncer Squad was goddamn hilarious and sort of gave this feeling like the goblins were actually telling us to get the hell off their island thank you very much but I hesitate to call it "fun"

Funny is probably more accurate.

I would be fine with skillchains the way they are if they did just 1 thing:

Fix the blinking issue when switching to TP gear after closing weapon skill - hides the skillchain animation and also doesn't show up in the log even if a skillchain is present.