On Artifact Armor.

Well, making AF viable again may actually make people who skipped it go back and check out the story / lore that goes with it, but I can't get behind this unless it somehow ends with a trial that uses both the relic and the AF piece to make one uber piece. Even if it's just combining the relevant stats. I have too much gear, and I like most of my AF right where it is right now....in storage and forgotten.

I agree that they should probably work on new stuff instead of old stuff, but there is one aspect of upgrading AF1 that I like: For the most part AF1 is stuff we already have, and upgrading it would only make it better, therefore it wouldn't really require more inventory slots like it would if they added something new.

My inventory is strained already, so if they just buffed gear that I'm already carrying around, it'd be great.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Yet with the ease of leveling these days, through antiquation you're basically advocating the abandonment of old content and lore (that not everyone may have experienced) solely because you don't want to step into an old area again and are talking like that is it how it has to be. Some of the AF quests are left open-ended or relatively unexplained, like what happened with Rainemard and the San d'Orian church for RDM.

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In my opinion, I think it would be good to expand on this. Every job has one NPC in general that has something to do with their class quests. Black Mage has Shantotto, Monk has Oggbi, Dark Knight has Zeid. Perhaps there could be a quest/trial that gives you an armor set in their name, such as Erlene's Attire (Scholar), Laila's Attire (Dancer), or Zeid's Armor (Dark Knight); something handcrafted by the best/iconic member of that job class to bring your abilities that much higher, with a set bonus to match. Long shot? Hell yes.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Once you get past the concepts of abilities and the like, equipment like Artifacts and Relics is a subset of those themes in both function (ideally...) and aesthetics.
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I see people wanting things brought up to new standards, maybe even setting bars relative to independent gear options.

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Look different, play well, have fun.^^

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Likewise, expanding on the lore doesn't necessarily equate to making the gear wtfbbqawesome or equivalent to AF3.

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Just a thought, why does AF3 have to be the only set of best gear? I believe there should be more than one set of job-defining/visually notable gear that makes a job class truly shine. Artifact and Relic would do that nicely, without creating new gear people can't store.

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Originally Posted by Raksha

I agree that they should probably work on new stuff instead of old stuff, but there is one aspect of upgrading AF1 that I like: For the most part AF1 is stuff we already have, and upgrading it would only make it better, therefore it wouldn't really require more inventory slots like it would if they added something new.

My inventory is strained already, so if they just buffed gear that I'm already carrying around, it'd be great.

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I keep about 99% of it in storage, so just pulling it out to upgrade = inventory -1. And this is SE, so of course they won't make an NPC that can store the new upgraded gear until 1-2 years after you stop using it again.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I keep about 99% of it in storage, so just pulling it out to upgrade = inventory -1. And this is SE, so of course they won't make an NPC that can store the new upgraded gear until 1-2 years after you stop using it again.

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They already stated the moogle would be able to store it.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Well, making AF viable again may actually make people who skipped it go back and check out the story / lore that goes with it, but I can't get behind this unless it somehow ends with a trial that uses both the relic and the AF piece to make one uber piece. Even if it's just combining the relevant stats. I have too much gear, and I like most of my AF right where it is right now....in storage and forgotten.

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We both know people would just spam enter through the cutscenes if all they were after was the gear. If people care about story/lore, they do story/lore quests. If they don't, they don't. If they have to for nice gear, they spam enter.

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Originally Posted by MakkotoParinne

Just a thought, why does AF3 have to be the only set of best gear? I believe there should be more than one set of job-defining/visually notable gear that makes a job class truly shine. Artifact and Relic would do that nicely, without creating new gear people can't store.

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It doesn't. There is definitely gear being released that's better than AF3. But you know what doesn't need to be better than AF3? AF2. And AF1. You know, the AF with the lower numbers that we got years ago. AF3 shouldn't be any more of an end-all be-all at 99 than AF2 was at 75, or AF1 was at 60, but you know, that doesn't mean any of these sets should be the fulltime iconic job set. On top of that, why does flavor/lore/iconic gear have to trump other pieces in the same slot? Even most AF1, and a lot of AF2 still has macro use today, otherwise I'd never be messing around with Moogle Slips 4 and 6 all the time. It's not "Useless", just not fulltimed or TP'd in (... okay, Ninja TPs in AF1, what the hell).

Frankly, I'm not sure what you want. AF1 is about as useful as it should ever be, really. I hate the idea of people running around fulltiming JSE at 99 because it's best-in-slot. Everyone looks the same. Tantra this, Tantra that. Sure, high-end players will always end up looking somewhat similar due to the nature of gear in this game, but that doesn't mean making easily-obtainable grind gear the best for each job is even close to a good idea. At the same time, please don't even say you want it to be "Good but not the best". It already is. Every job I play uses at least 1 piece of AF1/AF1+1. All of them. Some jobs use 4 pieces of AF1/+1. I'd say that's useful enough.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

We both know people would just spam enter through the cutscenes if all they were after was the gear. If people care about story/lore, they do story/lore quests. If they don't, they don't. If they have to for nice gear, they spam enter.

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Your probably right, was just wishful thinking. To be honest, the last couple jobs I've leveled, I didn't even bother with AF, and I like the stories.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

On top of that, why does flavor/lore/iconic gear have to trump other pieces in the same slot?
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Frankly, I'm not sure what you want.

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I suppose random armor found in the gut of some ugly monster makes more sense.

I already said multiple times what I want, more than one set of gear that has good stats/set bonus that is visually appealing and/or job-defining. We already have those in the form of Artifact and Relic Armor, without creating more random sets. On that note, it does follow the trend to have AF1 upgraded in the same manner as the rest of the old gear in this game.

The questline/lore is important. I think it makes more sense for ancient armor with backstory to be the "best gear" rather than a random item found in a treasure chest from the Walk of Echoes or something.

1) I've addressed the trend. I dislike the trend. I don't think it should continue. Just because Homam is getting a facelift doesn't mean AF1 needs to. Neither should be getting facelifts to begin with.

2) We already have three sets of gear with good stats and a set bonus that is visually appealing and job-defining. I still use AF1 and AF2 as well as AF3 on all of my jobs, without needing to upgrade them. Do you just want to fulltime AF or something? Or do you want to crash the crafting and endgame markets completely by making AF the penultimate gear? Because those are still important parts of the game.

3) Define "Best". There will never be a single "Best piece of armor in the game for everything" in any slot, ever. What do you want? Best TP piece? Best WS piece? Best macro piece? Best skill piece? Best potency piece? Most AF1/AF2 is already the Best in slot for job-specific abilities because they have job-specific enhancements like Temple Cyclas/Melee Gloves' Chakra boost and Commodore Tricorne's Phantom Roll enhancement. A lot of AF is already the "Best" at something. Do you just want it to be the best at Everything? If so, that's impossible.

I would like it if they released new abjurations that drop in Sky / Sea / Einherjar / Limbus / Abbysea / (my god I can't believe I'm saying this) ...Voidwatch, that can be traded in along with corresponding pieces of AF, Relic and Empyrian Armor to create jizztastic Single pieces of armor that combine all the stats.

IE: trade in warlock's + Duelist's + Estoqueur's hat +abjuration and receive :

NEW PIMP HAT NAME +3
[Head] All Races
DEF: 31 HP +14 MP +40 INT +8 MND +8
Magic Accuracy +7
"Magic Atk. Bonus" +7
Elemental magic skill +10
Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
Enfeebling magic casting time -12%
Enfeebling magic skill +15
Adds "Refresh" effect
Set: Augments "Composure"

Maybe they let you pick which model you want to keep, so that you can pick your look. Fashion freaks could redo the quest by obtaining all the crap again if they wanted to change looks.

Of course this will never happen, but it sure would be nice if we could stop juggling all these JSE sets.

I think they're still struggling with the cap on the number of attribute types that can be placed on a single piece of gear, so "uber gear" is pretty much impossible.

Yeah, I forget what the cap is on attributes, but I'm sure quite a few pieces would go over it. Maybe They could compensate somehow.....they probably would mess it up though :P

It's just a pipe dream. You know if they ever did it there would have to be some new crappy thing they did to "balance" it, like make it so that the piece doesn't function with gear macros or something lame :P

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

1) I've addressed the trend. I dislike the trend. I don't think it should continue. Just because Homam is getting a facelift doesn't mean AF1 needs to. Neither should be getting facelifts to begin with.

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It's not just homam, it's homam, af2, nyzil gear, and salvage gear, plus we already had sky gear augments so why would af1 be left out?

I feel this is SE being cheap, and not being consistant.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I still use AF1 and AF2 as well as AF3 on all of my jobs, without needing to upgrade them.

Do you just want to fulltime AF or something?

Or do you want to crash the crafting and endgame markets completely by making AF the penultimate gear? Because those are still important parts of the game.

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1. Okay, why not have them upgradable so they do their job better? Nothing quite like better gear!

2. Suuuure. I'd like one set with everything on it, sure, but that's not possible with the current mindset of players and Dev team members.

3. Yes, damn those synergy workers/crafters, wearing their smocks and.. being.. synergists/crafters.

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Along with consistancy, I'd just like more options. I don't want to look like everyone else, walk like everyone else, talk like everyone else, TP in the same gear, weaponskill in the saaaame gear. It might as well be Final Gear Options Fantasy With No Variety. I'd like to have more than one set of gear with good stats on it while looking like the job I play.

Idea: You weaponskill in a piece of gear that has 30 STR on it. You TP in a piece of gear that has 10% Haste. Why not.. (wait for it!!) make a piece of gear with 30 STR and 10% haste? Add that onto a nice piece of matching equipment (such as Warrior's AF1) and you have a decent set of armor that looks okay, does it's job, and you don't need to gear swap. Blown out of proportion, but that's the gist of it.

On that note, upgrading old gear would be nice so people could use the gear they liked with a higher level standard. Why do you think they are upgrading old sets? People used to wear it, it is no longer relevant, and they don't want their hard work to be blown out of the water.

More sets of equipment to do well in a party/solo setting while looking aesthetically appealing would be nice. Again, just pushing around some ideas.

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Originally Posted by Concerned4FFxi

It's not just homam, it's homam, af2, nyzil gear, and salvage gear, plus we already had sky gear augments so why would af1 be left out?

I feel this is SE being cheap, and not being consistant.

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How in the world do you come to the conclusion that the difficulty to obtain AF1 is even close to Homam, AF2, Nyzul, or Salvage gear and therefore deserving of the same treatment?

A toddler could get 5/5 AF1 in a few hours

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

How in the world do you come to the conclusion that the difficulty to obtain AF1 is even close to Homam, AF2, Nyzul, or Salvage gear and therefore deserving of the same treatment?

A toddler could get 5/5 AF1 in a few hours

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It's more of a matter of perspective. At that time, without higher level help (read: not level 70+ when you did your AF1), the quests were rather vague and difficult (read: Wiki hasn't been around forever).

I don't think anyone said anything about the difficulty of obtaining AF1. Most armor sets aren't difficult to obtain, they are more of a grind-with-no-success thing unless someone isn't doing their job properly. At least, that's my experience on the matter.

Upgrading it would be consistant, like they are upgrading every other set of old gear.

Hm. And here I figured they were updating old sets because they knew damn well that they didn't have nearly enough content ready for the release of level 99, and modifying old systems is easier than coming up with new ones. But that's totally not in line with anything else they've been doing over the past couple years, right?

Uber gear is also completely out the window due to engine limitations, unfortunately. Gear only has a certain number of "Slots" where you can add effects or attributes to them. This is why a lot of AF loses its elemental resistance component when an effect is added in the +1. There simply isn't space for all of the attributes. This means that FFXI will always be an extremely macro-dependent game. They will never be able to release any single piece of armor that's good enough for anyone to fulltime.

But, you're right, as long as they're upgrading all of that nice, endgame level 75 armor, they may as well upgrade the level 50 armor while they're at it too. Gee, wouldn't it be nice if they augmented our level 30 RSE too? I think that'd be swell. They may as well be consistent. 75-52 is only 23 levels, and 52-30 is 22 levels! There's precedent, see!?

Well... +1s from limbus were 75 right? I guess if they went that route, it would ............ still be dumb. Also, I would be sad because I'm pretty sure I tossed all my Thief +1 gear except for feet. Would be lame if I had to go get all that crap again.

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Originally Posted by MakkotoParinne

I suppose random armor found in the gut of some ugly monster makes more sense.

I already said multiple times what I want, more than one set of gear that has good stats/set bonus that is visually appealing and/or job-defining. We already have those in the form of Artifact and Relic Armor, without creating more random sets. On that note, it does follow the trend to have AF1 upgraded in the same manner as the rest of the old gear in this game.

The questline/lore is important. I think it makes more sense for ancient armor with backstory to be the "best gear" rather than arandom item found in a treasure chest from the Walk of Echoes or something.

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3/5 of AF armor are found in tresure chest!

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Originally Posted by Concerned4FFxi

It's not just homam, it's homam, af2, nyzil gear, and salvage gear, plus we already had sky gear augments so why would af1 be left out?

I feel this is SE being cheap, and not being consistant.

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because
1)homam, af2, nyzul salvage sky gear were "end game" gears and AF1 were not
2) AF1 already got upgraded

If you want to play the endgame semantics game, when the cap was 60, AF would've been considered endgame for its time along with things like Roc, Simurgh, Serket, and Lumberjack. Granted, this is a period most anyone outside of Japan wouldn't know about since NA release came with both Zilart and the 75 cap.

Still, as others have noted, it doesn't take long to get most of these pieces (minus mandatory day/JP midnight waits or moon phase stuff like with RNG), but antiquation and abandonment of content we both paid for and devs spent a lot of time on is a reality if we subscribe to the belief of just washing our hands of it and hoping for something new. Again, there's nothing saying legitimate new content can't be related to these in some way along with other general shinies.

No, I most certainly do not feel that Garrison and Eco-Warrior should still be relevant in 2012.

That's pretty much what this comes down to.

So, how slippery is that slope of yours?

Almost as slippery as yours, considering you're the one who brought up the 60 cap and tried to call Artifact armor "Endgame".

Do you use any +1'd gear from Limbus? If so, where's the violent rage about SE using an upgrade system for content a couple years down the line? Strangely enough, Limbus was in no way related to their base piece's original acquisition methods... Curious precedent, that.

One or two pieces. Why only one or two? Because most of the upgrades are insignificant. If that's all this was, and it didn't detract at all from the development of real endgame (hint: not possible), I honestly couldn't care less. Unfortunately, here's the way things look in the real world:

1) Developing a system to dick around with AF1+2 means not developing a system for new gear/rewards/stuff. Straight up. Even if the new event is the same either way, I'd rather get new gear from it than magian upgrades for level 50 armor.

2) No one in this camp, including the OP, is going to be happy with minor upgrades to the existing pieces like AF1+1. They are going to want massive overhauls that make them better than AF3+2 and/or Voidwatch part 1/2 armor. If it doesn't beat AF3+2, it will be deemed worthless. Do you see a problem with this? I do. The flaw is not in level 50 armor being upgraded, per se, it's in level 50 armor suddenly being better than level 90/95/99 armor.

To expand upon this, even if they avoided overpowering AF1+2, what would essentially change? Niche macro pieces will stay niche macro pieces. Nothing is gained. So, why waste time on it? Opportunity cost is a very real thing. If I had the option to hire more people onto the Dev team and help them produce more content, I would. But I don't. Therefore, real priorities have to be assigned to what the team actually works on. AF1 is not a priority.

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Originally Posted by hiko

3/5 of AF armor are found in tresure chest!

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Not exactly what I mean. There's a difference between armor with backstory and armor that has none.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

No one in this camp, including the OP, is going to be happy with minor upgrades to the existing pieces like AF1+1. They are going to want massive overhauls that make them better than AF3+2 and/or Voidwatch part 1/2 armor.

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Not super overpowered. On par, if not somewhat less is some regards, with AF3+2, while having a certain stat setting them apart. Just like what they should do with all endgame gear sets that people tried tirelessly to attain (AF1+1 being one of them, and in turn AF1), with slightly different stats for different playstyles.

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On that note, I'm beating a dead horse. It doesn't matter what we say or do: they will be upgraded or they won't. We shall wait and see, and anything else said on the subject is null and void.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Gee, wouldn't it be nice if they augmented our level 30 RSE too? I think that'd be swell. They may as well be consistent. 75-52 is only 23 levels, and 52-30 is 22 levels! There's precedent, see!?

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I don't know what you mean. I have much more priority for my level 1 RSE to be upgraded, there is NOTHING else I want more.

And we're back at square 1. If you don't want Af1 to be overpowered, you just want it to be best at "something", preferably relating to the job.

Okay.

Temple Cyclas: Best Chakra body
Temple Gloves: Best Boost gloves
Temple Crown: Best Focus head
Temple Gaiters: Best Dodge feet
Temple Hose +1: Best Guard legs

Hm. Maybe Monk is a fluke.

Gallant Leggings: Best Shield Skill feet AND Best Holy Circle feet (goes from 15% to 17% damage bonus)
Gallant Coronet: Best Cover head
Gallant Breeches +1: Best Phalanx legs

Oh dear. What is this? Uhhh, maybe a mage then,

Warlock's Chapeau: Best Fast Cast head
Warlock's Tabard: Best Enfeebling Magic Skill body
Warlock's Tights +1: Best Enhancing Magic Skill legs
Warlock's Gloves +1: Best Parrying Skill hands
Warlock's Boots +1: Best Shield Skill feet

Well, shit.

I mean more of a set like AF3, how people can wear it as a whole set. But like I said, beating a dead horse. They'll do what they do.

Hopefully, like I said previously, a member of the Dev team will clarify what will happen.

As a full set, it will either be better than something or it won't be. There is no "Alternative TP set". It's better, or it's worse. Adding stats that don't influence the final outcome has a net effect of 0.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

How in the world do you come to the conclusion that the difficulty to obtain AF1 is even close to Homam, AF2, Nyzul, or Salvage gear and therefore deserving of the same treatment?

A toddler could get 5/5 AF1 in a few hours

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And homam or af2 is hard to acquire? Ask yourself why did they upgrade af1 to af1+1 in the first place, if what you said was true. It's easy to get all of these gear sets, granted some are more time consuming than others, but getting af1+1 requires a good amount of time as well, more than it does since af2 rains from the sky in dynamis. The only difficulty in getting af2 is there is a randomness about the drops, but theres also a randomness to the af1+1 items also.

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Originally Posted by MakkotoParinne

It's more of a matter of perspective. At that time, without higher level help (read: not level 70+ when you did your AF1), the quests were rather vague and difficult (read: Wiki hasn't been around forever).

I don't think anyone said anything about the difficulty of obtaining AF1. Most armor sets aren't difficult to obtain, they are more of a grind-with-no-success thing unless someone isn't doing their job properly. At least, that's my experience on the matter.

Upgrading it would be consistant, like they are upgrading every other set of old gear.

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Thank you, that's my point I been stressing. Consistency.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

But, you're right, as long as they're upgrading all of that nice, endgame level 75 armor, they may as well upgrade the level 50 armor while they're at it too. Gee, wouldn't it be nice if they augmented our level 30 RSE too? I think that'd be swell. They may as well be consistent. 75-52 is only 23 levels, and 52-30 is 22 levels! There's precedent, see!?

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Again, another person not looking at the bigger picture. The gear IS NOT LEVEL 50, it's the same level as af2/af2+1, af1+1 is what the highest current form of af1 there is, the current level to equip af1+1 is 70+. we are going forward, not backwards.

P.S. lol at your RSE remark, it's obviuos you'll say anything just to trash a topic you don't approve.

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Originally Posted by hiko

because
1)homam, af2, nyzul salvage sky gear were "end game" gears and AF1 were not
2) AF1 already got upgraded

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AF2 got an upgrade as well
AF1 gets their current +1 from an endgame event, limbus, so whats your point?

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Do you use any +1'd gear from Limbus? If so, where's the violent rage about SE using an upgrade system for content a couple years down the line? Strangely enough, Limbus was in no way related to their base piece's original acquisition methods... Curious precedent, that.

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Thf feet, whm hands, blu body, smn legs, nin body, there's two macros peices and three possible full time full time peices, depending on your gear set, right off the top of my head. Just because the content came out in it's orginal fashion, didn't stop the DEV from saying that it was good enough to warrant it's upgrade in Limbus to AF1+1, to be on the same level with relic and relic+1. I like serious debates, but some of these posts are amazingly lacking in logic, and people say anything just because they refuse to back down from what they said earlier, even when the evidence is out there that proves their point is mute.

GOOD GOD QUINTUPLE POST

STOP. JUST STOP.

Square Enix should just make: "All the time melee/TP/DMG Armor set."

Quest: What the hell are you doing!? "Hey now that Quest name is all that I could think of, On short notice"

You gotta collect this:
Artifact: Fighter's Armor +1 Set
Relic: Warrior's Armor +2 Set
Empyrean: Ravager's Armor +2 Set

Just using the WAR Job as a metaphor. You just freed up 10 inventory spaces also you don't have to run back and fourth to the Porter-Moogle!!! Also I'm sure Lv.99 will bring more weapon skills, abilities etc... This is just an "Rough" idea of what one set could look like.

Edit: Just think how many macro's it would free up for those Abilities and useful things like items and not just gear swaps, If you put all that time into getting all those Sets and having those Stats, Whats really the point in gear swapping. The "Final set" would incorporate all those stats in to "one set!" Now that would be the best reward in the game I think!

I still say that AF should be an ingredient in the new relic.