Neither does that screenshot, so both are equally relevant.
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11-21-2011, 09:46 PMNeisan_Quetz
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11-21-2011, 10:02 PMCrimson_Slasher
If you say so, i personally think the screenshot about a monk/pup ws on a redmage board cant ever be "equally relevent" to a weaponskill useable by a redmage on a redmage board. And no math, insults, angry thoughts, or anything short of proof he wasnt rdm at the time of its use will convince me otherwise.
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11-21-2011, 10:38 PMsaevelQuote:
Originally Posted by Crimson_Slasher
As I've said, haters gonna hate. Just add them to ignore list, that way I never have to deal with GG trolling.
The really funny part is, that wasn't doctored or planned at all. We had just finished killing Tiamat VWNM and I remembered a bunch of people hated and screamed "POIDH!!!101010101". So I scrolled through the log on screen and took snaps of what was there, the last three WS I did. Previously to those three I had done about four or five others, but they scrolled off the screen.
There really is nothing that stops a RDM from dealing damage, no hidden JT that is -100 attack or other silliness. Gear, food, weapons buffs and debuffs, all you need. Gear I've listed before, food was Bison Steak, offensive buffs were haste / enspell / temper, also used the stalwarts tonic, braver's drink and fools drink. Offensive debuffs were Dia III, no dragoon present for Agnon.
The whole point of that pic is to irrefutable proof that should a player put their mind to it, they can deal amazing damage on a "lolRDM". Doesn't mean your only meleeing, good lords no, but dealing damage by virtue of your swords is an option. Melee for damage when possible, if the situation starts getting really hairy then you can always drop back and go pure support mode. Heck I have a special Cure IV macro along with my Cure Pot +10% sword, for when those situations deem it necessary. <stal> is your friend.
The "mage onry" argument would hold more water if there was actually things that required 100% full attention, but with enfeebling completely broken and us unable to be a main healer (melee and main healing do NOT go together), what exactly would a "mage onry" player do? Cast more haste? More refresh? More CureIV? Cast more enfeebles that will get resisted. Slow II / Dia III / Para II aren't exactly hard to land, unless the mobs straight up resistant, and then your no better off in the back. When asked the question, what exactly would a "mage onry" RDM do, the inevitable answer from them is "go change to WHM", thus rendering their entire argument moot.
So like always, haters gonna hate, just gotta ignore them. -
11-21-2011, 10:40 PMsaevelWas RDM/NIN, if people want I can post my TP / WS gears, their not exactly exotic. Lately been working on a -DT/PDT set for TPing. Seems the higher tier VWNM's work better when front liners can survive the aoe's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson_Slasher
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11-21-2011, 10:41 PMsaevelYour just miffed that it exists. Your under the effects of your own cognitive dissonance, ain't nothing nobody says will ever change your mind. There could be piled of proof and all you'll do is plug your ears and say it doesn't exist. Thus we ignore you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
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11-21-2011, 11:02 PMNeisan_Quetz
What exists? That you can post high damage screenshots with all temps then stop WSing when temps are down? You already got proven wrong, no one has to listen to what you say.
The fact you have 2 better dds and 1 better hybrid job, and go Rdm for merit spell procs + Dia says something. -
11-21-2011, 11:05 PMcidbahamuthttp://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp...onjqo1_500.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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11-22-2011, 01:21 PMGreatguardianYou missed the point of the screenshot. The point was that my screenshot meant about as much as his did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson_Slasher
How much did my screenshot mean? Nothing.
Woohoo. 1+1 = 2.
No one denies that even a RDM can lop off the occasional 2k CDC with all of their temps loaded up to bear. Saevel originally claimed that he averaged those numbers, and the community collectively said "BULLSHIT" and proved him wrong.
Now he seems to have ret-conned this by claiming that he only WS's with max temps and buffs on. I say, fine. When I only WS with max temps and buffs on, I average 9k, or 4k+ outside Abyssea on Not-RDM. That doesn't mean any of those numbers mean jack shit, which is the point.
ITT though: 2k damage on a VWNM is amazing damage. I average that on Corsair with no temps. -
11-22-2011, 09:09 PMCrimson_Slasher
Even under favorable/maximum conditions, i will always side with the subject of the topic. It doesnt matter if someone smuggled a primeval brew out of abyssea and gave it to him, its still showing something a red mage can do and thats all that matters on the redmage board, it doesnt matter how, why, when, or what to me, because its still a redmage doing something. And even in the situation of it being red mage meleeing with temps, it doesnt diminish its merit, especially when the nukes under said temps are likely to hit about that too. Though if you wanna get some Blu and Pld numbers with the same weapon/ws and temps off pld/blu, thats something that can be more closely compared to me and i can look at that to see the difference. Till then, even if it was under conditions that arent regular, i still say good job!
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11-22-2011, 09:34 PMsaevelQuote:
Originally Posted by Crimson_Slasher
Ahh their taking the "its rigged under X / Y / Z situation!!!10101" route? Their all on my ignore list and while NQ can ~sometimes~ say put together words that sound like an intelligent response, most of what comes out it vitrol. So I don't even bother reading what they say, my words aren't for them and they've made themselves into the peanut gallery.
Every other player has the exact same temps I have, their all replenished every HV proc and one is randomly replenished every regular proc. They last a good amount of time, no reason not to spam them. Plus its not like their doubling your damage or anything, Bravers is only +20 to your stats and Stalwarts is just more attack, something any job can get. A BLU/WAR using zerk and DW should put up higher numbers, but honestly between food, stalwarts and Dia III everyone was hitting attack cap. A PLD though usually is /WAR for voke, without DW their missing a hit so their numbers are a bit lower.
Its kinda funny, outside of those same VWNM fights that I use temps on, there is nothing we can't cap attack on. So the detractors are basically saying, nothing inside abyssea counts, nothing inside VWNM with temps counts, nothing outside VWM but not inside abyssea counts. Thus ... there is absolutely no monster in FFXI that would "count". They would only accept damage done without buffs, without debuffs, without temps, without food ... heck can I wear my gear or does it need to be done naked? You see where this logic leads, they'll keep removing things and changing the situation until they get the desired answer. Every MNK, WAR, DRG, SAM, THF, WHM, PLD, BLU, ect.. gets the exact same temps inside VWNM. We all get the exact same food and atmacite. If anything RDM is left out due to a severe lack of super WS gear. -
11-22-2011, 09:47 PMNeisan_Quetz
You can stop pretending to be a special snowflake right about... now.
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11-23-2011, 03:48 AMGreatguardianOff topic, but you should change your name to Heisan_Quetz so that Saevel can abbreviate it as HQ. Whitebox or bust, bro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
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11-23-2011, 03:48 AMManaKingWow that post served a purpose, nice way to start a fight I guess, instead of talking about what you favorite subjob for RDM is... you know, the topic of the post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
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11-23-2011, 03:50 AMGreatguardianSave the chastisement, it's fairly obvious where this mess started.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManaKing
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11-23-2011, 03:57 AMNeisan_Quetz
It actually took me a few minutes to figure out what they meant by NQ. I wasn't aware I had Normal Quality talking. Next time I'll respond in the vernacular.
On Topic before OP complains: /blu was kinda fun for laughing off certain NMs and still keeping Sang blade too though. I've heard of it being used for healing breeze at birds but never saw it as a necessity after finishing Vert merits and getting relic head. -
11-23-2011, 04:33 AMManaKingNo actually it's not. If you need to point fingers all the time and just beat on each other all the time, then it really becomes quite muddled. I mean if you are just going to insult each other at least keep it on topic. Every topic doesn't have to go 1 or 2 pages before it erupts into some kind of bitter struggle against your fellow RDM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
Hint, while you are fighting each other, nothing constructive is being done and no one cares about how bad RDM is because apparently we are a bunch of negative, abrasive trouble makers that can't even have a conversation with each other. Why should anyone help us when we can't even agree to help each other? -
11-23-2011, 04:34 AMManaKingThank you. I appreciate that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
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11-23-2011, 04:44 AMManaKingOh shit, you can cast cures and nukes at the same time? My god I must have missed when they put double cast in the game. OH WAIT THEY DIDN'T. You can't do 2 things at the same time on any job. Multi-tasking is the result of doing 2 different things over a period of time, not at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
If you are just trying to insult me for a laugh or you are bored, I don't care. I'm only pointing out that doing the same types of things as other jobs at reduced potency at the same rate as them is why RDM is essentially outdated and unequal to other jobs from a balance standpoint. That is one of RDMs problems. That is something that has to be accounted for when they are looking at re balancing RDM, if they have any interest in doing so. -
11-23-2011, 04:45 AMcidbahamutWelcome to every Red Mage forum ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManaKing
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11-23-2011, 05:47 AMGreatguardianI was going to say something about this, then I realized that BG didn't have job-specific forums so this statement is 100% correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by cidbahamut
Which forums have Red Mage subforums? XIAH, Alla, and the OF. Yup, sounds about right.
Really, the issue isn't so petty as you make it sound, Mana. Red Mage is in a pretty shitty position right now, and it needs some tuning up. The problem is, some people want to tune up the absolute weakest facet of Red Mage because it fits their lore/mentality/playstyle and not because it would be most beneficial to the job in relation to the other 19 in the game.
Red Mage shined for years because of its magic. Right now, even with all the crap it gets, the real reason Red Mage has fallen behind is really more that they haven't received anything new in the past 20 levels while other jobs have been revamped to hell. If Red Mage's magic side were to receive a buff equivalent to the kind of upgrades Black Mage, White Mage, and Scholar got, it would be pretty damn well off.
If, instead, we got some sort of Melee buff, what then? Will people suddenly value Red Mage as a damage dealer? I don't think a lot of people here realize that people really will not suddenly applaud Red Mage Melee even if it gets a buff. Even if Red Mage's melee was brought in line with its Magical prowess, the position of the job in the overall scheme of things Would Not Change. No one needs magical swordsmen. It's a fun RPG archetype, and I almost always play one in The Elder Scrolls (believe it or not), but it's positively useless in the realm of an MMO like FFXI.
Look at Summoner. Look at Beastmaster. Look at pre-buff Scholar and pre-buff Puppetmaster. Good lord, look at Blue Mage. Look at Dark Knight.
Buffing the weakest aspect of jobs in order to make them more well-rounded is not viable. It will not change the desirability, and thus the usability, of the job at all. What happens when SE gives DRKs Occult Acumen? What happens when SE gives DRKs MAB on their Relic Armor, huh? That armor becomes Trash. What Dark Knight needs is a solid Melee buff, just like what Red Mage needs is a solid Magic buff. Appealing to the weakest link in hybrids is just a recipe for disaster. -
11-23-2011, 07:45 AMCrimson_Slasher
Id rather be a substitute, well rounded hybrid than an incredibly restricted specialist when i play rdm, i signed up to be a hybrid.
While that statement is nice and all, look at it this way, most jobs have more than one function, they have a core function, but also a second, powerful function. And like people say, nobody is gonna invite a dedicated enfeebler, we lack enhancing, we lack cure power, and we are insufficient as nukers and meleers. For me, id rather use those plentiful, single target extended duration buffs, the swords/daggers we are so infatuated with, and the gear that we love to collect to chip away at a mob. Id rather let my mp tick endlessly to full, slinging a few enfeebs while i poke, prod, jab, slap, and strike a mob, and let that excess mp that im carrying go towards a few emergency uses, like helpful cures, and hastes when the whm cant manage with all the curing. I know i can likely hit as hard/harder with nukes, but if i dump my mp gauge, then it takes me that much longer to pop convert for an emergency cure.
But i like to be a mode switcher. I love a lot of "outdated" concepts. And again, just like anyone else, part of rdm is nostalgia and the flexibility it has in roles. Too many people say "you want to do x on rdm? go level another job!" but i find that funny, because just about in every way we are matched and outclassed. Enhancing is best left to whm/brd/cor/smn, Enfeebs can be done by brd/nin/blu, melee by most jobs, heals by whm, and soon sch, and even smn can do well if they utilize carbuncle's ward pacts. Nukes have been covered by blm/sch, and almost matched by blu, and even smn can sling magical damage. Tanking isnt even on the radar for the most part, so where does that leave us? Just like you said, enhancing our weakest trait will "NEVER" make us wanted, but unless enfeebles are the ONLY way to kill a mob, neither will those, and as long as someone can enhance better than us, neither will that. Those are what you consider our "Strongest" traits.
So what would you improve? They wont improve our cures/heals, they are unlikely to improve our nuking, they seem incapable of improving our enfeebling, and our enhancing/melee get passable updates at best. I personally see the biggest option being melee because, even if we become good, there will always be other jobs who can always do the job too, and that competition itself is a form of game balance, and will prevent us from being "overpowered" simply because other jobs can do it too.
I spoke my subjob peace already, page 1 or 2. But it just dumbfounds me how greatguardian wants our strengths to be improved, but shy of a total reshaping of the job (and if thats the case, why dont you play a job suited to that very task?) they will never be worth use in most events unless it is the only option period. -
11-23-2011, 08:04 AMGreatguardian
What makes you think Enfeebles are not worth a party slot on their own merit? Plenty of jobs (nay, almost all of the most powerful/desired ones) gain a party slot because they excel in a single role. Specialization is always more powerful than Hybridization in a Team-based MMO. Two Red Mages will never be able to kill as fast as a Warrior and a Bard duo.
I don't particularly care what you signed up for, because that doesn't affect me. I don't particularly care what you enjoy, because you're always free to do whatever the hell you want and it won't affect me one bit. All I care about are the adjustments that are going to need to be made to the job as a whole, and I'll tell you right now that adjusting Melee won't do jack shit for Red Mage. Red Mage will be in the exact same place it is now: a funsies job where people who throw massive bitchfits or cry all the time about coming on it will be able to because no one wants to deal with their shit, and no one else because it's not worth wasting a party slot in a well-constructed group.
Re-instate the gap between WHM/SCH/BLM enfeebles and RDM enfeebles, make shit actually land, and update our spell library to level 99 and bam, suddenly leaders will start actually asking people to come on Red Mage again. I'd know, I am one. -
11-23-2011, 09:19 AMCrimson_Slasher
Seriously? Yeah enfeebles are great, in theory, but not all events are focalized around one single central nm that MUST be enfeebled. And the tedious nature of applying enfeebles to every mob, when in many situations the mob will die seconds after with or without them, is not a situation where enfeebling is required. Not every event is voidwatch, most events are not big bad boss-challenge-timeattack styled content, in fact, voidwatch and some of WOE seems to be of the few exceptions to this rule.
Anyone can call themselves a leader, but a leader doesnt just decide what people do and go and tell them to deal with it, a real leader uses the people they have and encourages them to be their best. Sure they can fix enfeebles, but you are clearly dilusional to think just making them land, and making a few petty spells with solve the problem alone. And how far can you improve them before people start pissing and moaning about it. We need just the right amount or it broken to such a level that theres no shadow of doubt its needed and for the devs to openly state "theyre ment to be brokenly powerful, deal with it." -
11-23-2011, 09:31 AMNeisan_Quetz
And? Such events typically do not require large groups in any way shape or form. What matters is making Rdm viable in a party setting, and making enfeebles relevant on harder mobs can go a long way, if done right. Otherwise enjoy soloing.
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11-23-2011, 10:21 AMGreatguardian
Lol. Sorry, but I've been leading linkshells in this game longer than most of this forum has been playing at all. You don't need to lecture me on proper leadership and utilization of talent. There is, however, a balance that must be struck between utilizing a player correctly and utilizing their jobs correctly. Thankfully, I've generally been lucky enough to lead a group of people mature enough to understand the necessity of that balance.
There is a difference between commanding Player A to get on Bard and asking Player A to get on Bard if he doesn't mind, because we could really use one tonight. Plenty of people on these boards paint me as an authoritarian bastard, but honestly, you can ask anyone who's been in a linkshell with me and you'll damn near-universally hear the same thing. I'm a nice, laid back guy who excels in group management, logistics, and leadership.
With that in mind, no, I really don't lose anything by asking people to come RDM or not-RDM. There is no loss of morale. In the case that someone really does throw a hissy fit over being asked to come not-RDM, or intentionally falls asleep at the wheel because they can't come what they want all the time, chances are they're not someone myself or anyone else in my shell wants to work with anyways.
Enfeebles are also pretty boss. If you're working with mobs weak enough that they're being spammed and you don't need enfeebles anyways, Red mage's ancillary magical functions are more than sufficient to handle these situations already. Red Mage doesn't lack in non-Abyssean lowman, it lacks in serious party/group play. -
11-23-2011, 01:01 PMCrimson_Slasher
The point im getting at is the situations where you would need a dedicated enfeebler are few and far, as like you said, most spammed mobs (Nyzul, assaults, limbus, einherjar, dynamis, select abyssea) Involve mobs downed too quickly to need enfeebling, which while a rdm can handle said mobs with nukes/etc, why not take a better mage, or a DD? And on the hardest nms, in many cases, the enfeebling is either totally resisted, doesnt take full effect and at times cant even be noticed, and once again, outside of dia, another job tends to be more effective. I may not be a big ls leader like you, but thats really neither here nor there, i do my leading in the field with people i do and dont know, to keep it varied, but i AM a number cruncher, and ive found few situations, even when the enfeebles can be landed, that again, outside of dia, actually benefit in finishing time due to enfeebles.
However i would like to see a general boost to everything of rdm, thats partly what gain spells are for, mnd/int for enfeebs and cures/nukes sorta, str/dex for melee, agi/vit for tanking, and chr for...being sexy i suppose? But yes, i dont want to see total stagnation of the job, i wanna see magic improved too, but i think that just enfeebs being fixed arent nearly enough, and frankly, i miss the old days when skillchains were planned. Id love to see situations where every party member is at ground-zero, skillchaining because it has something to contribute, and because of this, and because not every "mage" should have to back-line in every event just to get invites, id like to see more melee love.
Thats my opinion and stance, it isnt wrong, i offered a very broken mage friendly idea a while back but it was something that would truely make rdm overpowered and hence was just an idea, not realistic. Thats what the board is for though, not attacking eachother but the issues, and offering potential fixes. Though that is something a lot of rdms would like to see prolly, a 50% higher mp cost for 50% more potency. a 150mp 1000 damage nuke raised to 225mp 1500 damage, a 88mp 400hp cure 4 moved to 132mp 600 hp cure (before gear potency calculation) but then we would be a veritible super-mage, throwing blm-grade nukes and whm-grade heals. -
11-23-2011, 03:19 PMManaKingQuote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
I agree with GG. No matter what kind of RDM you are, Enfeebles are what we need. Regardless of subjob, we need to be able to do our job (see what i did there, keeping it in line with what we are discussing).
RDMs can significantly reduce the amount of damage that people engaging a mob take by reducing that mobs total damage through debuffs and to a lesser extent buffs. It doesn't matter if you are engaging or sitting back, your job is to keep the people around the mob in good shape. Slow, Blind, Paralyze, Addle, Bio/Dia, Dispel and to a lesser extent silence, bind, gravity, and sleep/break are all good ways to buffer the tanks and DDs from quick or near instant KOs from more powerful mobs. Currently, these spells are completely at the mercy of how cheaply the mobs were constructed.
We are there to help WHMs keep people alive. The WHM can do nothing to keep people alive if the mob is going at full speed and can just run through people faster than they can cure them. A WHM is a poor solution to the instant KO from damage, because there isn't anything they can do when they can't slow down a mobs damage. RDM can't do anything either, but that is because RDM is broken right now. We are supposed to have tools to be able to slow mobs down and take the wind out of their sails, but currently our enfeebles might not work at all.
The point of RDMs is to make it so either themselves or others can outlast what they are engaged with. We are cripplers, we are protectors, and we are support in the broadest implication of the word. If you are willing to learn how to play all of RDM, there will never be a situation where you won't be useful. The problem with that last statement is that currently we are undervalued because we are underpowered. The situation where you won't be useful is the situation where a party fills up and every jobs does what you can do, but better. That is the current state of RDM. Not only was our main focus arbitrarily thrown out of existence by whatever amazing person came up with mobs being straight immune to our magic, but all of our other strengths aren't strong enough to make us desirable. You should not take a RDM to anything right if you can get anything else, unless you know that the RDM can land enfeebles on it.
We need enfeebles back and we need to be better at them than everyone else. Buffs, w/e they are cool, if you want to include them I will never say no. But this bullshit with our only A rank Skill being no better than anyone else's in any qualitative sense that matters to a party needs to go. People give us back our enfeebles. That is the first of many steps that RDM needs to get it back on track. -
11-23-2011, 06:20 PMsaevelUnfortunately, sitting back and casting enfeebles just means you get to see them be resisted more. This is SE's fault in their attempt to crush soloist RDM's. People can sling all the mud they want, eventually it boils down to them wanting RDM to just be a WHM. And even if SE "fix's" enfeebles, it's not a full time job, wasn't in 04,05,06,07,08 nor anything after that. You slap them on and ... then sit around ... with your light staff shoved where the sun don't shine waiting for them to wear off to reapply.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManaKing
Current enfeeble library is,
Useful ones
Dia III: Godly, can't be resisted and effect is direct and scales dramatically
Slow II: mediocre, can be resisted but few NM's have high resistance to it. Scaling is poor due to haste formula.
Para II: potent on anything not resistant, absolutely worthless on anything that is resistant which unfortunately includes most of the boss's you'd want enfeebles on.
Poison II: Damage isn't high enough to matter, can be useful in long solo's with Saboteur
Addle: Won't make any significant difference on NM's but seeing as few are resistant might as well toss in on the stack
Then the crap enfeebles
Blind II: Only useful in low-man situations with a evasion tank vs a weak NM. Vs anything bigger you won't lower it's accuracy to under the accuracy cap.
Silence: everything that you'd want to silence is immune, nothing more to say.
Bind: see Silence
Gravity: see Bind
Break: see Gravity
Sleep: see Break
Bio III: I hold my own special hatred for people who insist on using this. Other then some sort of /SCH long DoT solo it's completely useless. The -attack won't actually change the damage anyone takes due to enemy Ratio being floored at 1. And what's worse, it blocks / overwrites our best debuff Dia III, so not only does it do nothing, but its worse then nothing as it's blocking an extremely useful effect. The sole reason to have 1 merit in this is for the ridiculous VWNM procs, that's it. I'll say it one last time, using Bio III will NOT reduce the damage your tanks are taking. At most it could slightly reduce the CS MNK or zerked WAR due to their defense being so low to begin with.
So out of our "master of enfeebling" we have five useful enfeebles, out of those five three are consistent and out of those three only one is great. It doesn't take a large amount of effort to keep the applicable enfeebles in place. That's the whole reason I started building a melee set to begin with. If I'm going to be standing around with my light staff shoved up my --- I might as well contribute some form of damage. And from there it grew.
And before the annoying people try to say how *great* slow II is, let me demonstrate. Slow and Haste the same thing, one is merely the negative of the other. Thus while we state 30% haste as 100/(100-30), 30% slow then must be stated as 100/(100+30). Wanna see what happens as you scale slow up?
100/115 = 0.8695 (86.95% attack speed)
100/130 = 0.7692 (76.92% attack speed)
100/150 = 0.6666 (66.66% attack speed)
And finally the ZOMG awesomeness of 100% slow
100/200 = 0.5000 (50% attack speed).
Slow gets exponentially worse as you stack more of it, its the inverse of the exponential effect of haste and defense down. This is why I stopped using saboteur on Slow II, I realized that it was better used on other enfeebles if possible. Along with the fact that regular hits were not even scratching our tanks, it was the monsters TP moves that are the most damaging, and we can't do squat about that. Not even the age old "TP FEEd!!1010101011 oHH NOES010101" argument works as most NM's can now use TP moves without needing TP, thanks SE.
So let the bashing, hating and name calling continue. -
11-23-2011, 11:38 PMcidbahamutOnly if you don't know how to spend excess MP.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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11-24-2011, 02:53 AMGreatguardianThis is essentially what it comes down to.Quote:
Originally Posted by cidbahamut
This whole "Pink mages only cast Haste and then afk" strawman is getting old. Good Red Mages were always riding their Convert timers and MP bars to the limit with their spells. I'm sorry that most Red Mages were, well, bad, but that's the case with most jobs really. Giving bad Red Mages swords isn't going to fix that fact, either.
Red Mage, even as a pure mage, plays significantly differently than White Mage. Conflating the two is insulting, but that's par for the course with Saevel so whatever. -
11-24-2011, 03:11 AMManaKing
I asked what people sub on RDM because I've come to the conclusion that a RDMs sub is generally more useful than the main job of RDM itself. A RDMs sub can change how effective a RDM is in specific fight from being legitimately useful to not really good for anything besides Cure IV and maybe Tier IV nukes if you can spare the MP.
The reason why this is the case is because our main job is broken. We can't be counted on to enfeeble properly or significantly. We aren't in a position to do our main job first and then work on our secondary roles in the group like we should be able to. All we have is hodgepodge of secondary roles with no job specialization to do them well or even competently. That is part of the reason we are getting all pissy about my staff is better than your sword and vice versa, because at the end of the day, both your staves and swords both suck compared having a main job. What you should be able to do is enfeeble properly, effectively, and with the highest proficiency in the game. You are given your other strengths so that you have secondary roles that fit the situations that you are in. Not to make them the main focus of your job.
If you fix enfeebles to do what they were intended to do, then we can go back to fighting with each other over why their main hand is stupid, but we will be able to do it while actually doing something for the rest of the party. SE has expressed the interest in Enfeebling being the focus of RDM, and I am happy about it. But when and how is still the issue for me.
If they don't make Enfeebling worthwhile again, then they need to push our nuking, healing, and melee up to compensate for getting a lemon of a main job. We would need a lot of work making RDM into an effective hybrid if their intention is to leave Enfeebling in the state that it is in. We can't be bad at a lot of different things and expect to be wanted by the general populous, it's just not realistic. We have to be decent at everything and have JT and JA abilities that reinforce the hybrid nature of our job. JAs like Sacrosanctity and Immanence and Job traits like Fencer and Occult Acumen need to be coming our way. If that is taking away from the identity of other jobs, THEN FIX OUR MAIN JOB SO WE HAVE SOME JOB IDENTITY. -
11-24-2011, 03:29 AMManaKingNo that is the point, RDM and WHM aren't supposed to be the same. WHM has a full job kit and RDM has a half baked kit that is outdated and under powered. In my opinion WHM and RDM should be able to be in the same party because they don't have the same role. WHM is the healer and defensive buffer. RDM is the offensive debuffer and is an off-healer if needed. WHM keeps them up and protected, RDM undermines the offensive power of the mob and helps keep the party in control of the situation by filling roles that need to be reinforced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
If you WHM has healing on lock down, you should find something that you can do to lessen the threat of the mob. That can be by contributing direct damage to shorten the length of the engagement with the enemy. It can also be to further undermine the threat the mob presents by stunning for you group so that you can nullify spells and TP moves.
You should always have a WHM as a healer for anything significant, it has the tools to do its job. RDM does not have the tools to be a main healer. There is no reason for RDM to be stepping on WHMs toes, but there is no reason that a RDM has to be severely limited by what other jobs can do to determine what it can't. -
11-24-2011, 02:52 PMsaevelNotice how he falls back to the old "I disagree with you so therefor you must suck" argument. Talks about riding convert timer ..... upon which I reply .. doing what exactly? Invariably the answer is "supporting the party", upon which I ask again, doing what exactly. And it goes round and round until it comes out, "supporting the party" is just casting Cure IV over and over again, coupled with the occasional erase / paralyna / silena. With the new duration bonus haste / refresh cycles aren't even an issue anymore. Enfeebled are cheap for their duration and quantity. This leaves two things that can possibly drain MP, Cure IV and nukes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManaKing
So once fully dissected he's argument (and pretty much every anti-melee player) is that he's doing damage via nukes vs my doing damage via sword. We both cure the same, hence my reference to the ubiquitous <stal> macro, swinging swords does not prevent me from casting cures when need be. Cure IV is no substitute for Cure V, I won't be main healing, but I will be support curing the best I can. And I can guarantee me sword will deal more damage this his nukes over the course of a fight. There is a reason XP burns forced BLMs to go solo their XP.
Ultimately the argument boils down to them wanting to make RDM into WHM. If your going to be leveraging you role on spamming cures, then you should be on WHM. If you want to throw nuking into the mix then come on SCH, they have VASTLY superior capabilities in that regard. If you only want to melee with swords then come on WAR / SAM / DRG / ect.., their VASTLY superior at it then a RDM will be. If you want to heal, nuke AND swing swords, then com RDM it's what the job was designed for. Enfeebles were tacked on after the job was made, they were never particularly powerful and SE has since nerfed them into oblivion.
My argument still stands, RDM isn't a single category or function and to attempt to define it as such will always lead to failure. It does lots of things, and while none are the best they are more then functional. Due to this multi-role discipline it takes a lot of concentration and effort to play, sticking to one small set of abilities over and over again is doing the job a disservice. A good RDM can slip into and out of the front lines easily, they know when to hit the NM and when to disengage, when to nuke, when to cure and which spells are the most effective on which NMs. We have a plethora of tricks we can deploy depending on the kind of fight it is and our sub choice. -
11-24-2011, 03:55 PMcidbahamutMissing 23% Cure Potency is not 'curing the same'. Bullshit less please.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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11-24-2011, 04:09 PMManaKingOnly if you are actually missing it. You can get 25% with Galenus and Tefnut Wand. You also get 25 MP, 10 MND, and 5 Healing Magic skill. Your staff only give Cure Potency, and less than the combination of the 2. I mean if we are getting technical, your staff is outdated and inferior. I don't care if you want to use it, that is your choice. But you really shouldn't be trying to tell someone that a staff is the superior curing tool, when it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by cidbahamut
@ Savael
Enfeebling was great when this game came out. You could significantly lower the damage a mob could do to you. There was nothing tacked on about it. If you chose not to use it, you were shooting yourself in the foot. -
11-24-2011, 04:16 PMGreatguardianYou're melee'ing with a Galenus and a Tefnut wand, then? I think that's the primary concern. It's not staff v clubs, it's Melee (and thus locked main/sub) versus Casting (gaining access to the Main/Sub slots)Quote:
Originally Posted by ManaKing
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11-24-2011, 04:22 PMcidbahamutThat would require weapon slots to not be locked, which saevel is most likely doing so he can get all those awesome screenshots of him doing CDC. Can't reach 100 TP if you're switching in a cure potency wand every time you throw a cure.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManaKing
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11-24-2011, 04:39 PMManaKingIf you wanted to you could, which is more than you can say for a staff. Put staff skill on RDM and I would instantly pick one up. Without it, no dice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
If you are RDM/NIN you have the option to melee with your chosen main hand/offhand and switch if needed to a Cure Potency Main/Sub if you think the situation merits it. With Staves and /Mage you don't have that option. If it is an option you don't want then you won't miss it. But in the case of people that enjoy melee-ing with a RDM, they have the same resources or slightly better for curing. Show me a cure potency grip and then you can say Staffs heal better.
Savael or anyone for that matter can make decisions on the fly about where his best interests are. If the first 75% of an NM is a cake walk and the last 25% is serious BSN, then what is the point of NOT meleeing for the first 70~% and then walking back when you know the shit is going to hit the fan and switch weapons for cure potency?Quote:
Originally Posted by cidbahamut
Everyone needs to know when to walk away from a dangerous situation, being a RDM doesn't make it any different. If Savael is sticking it to NMs that can AOE 1 or 2 Shot him, then he is doing it wrong. But if he can contribute DPS and end a fight sooner while not adding extra burden to the healer, then there is no reason that he can't be there.
There are plenty of bad players in every job. Just because most RDMs that try to melee do it horribly wrong, doesn't mean that everyone will do it horribly wrong. If RDM is going to get gimped based of the absolute max of what the job can cheap out of itself, then you shouldn't be limiting people who are trying their best to get the absolute max out of their job. -
11-24-2011, 05:31 PMMirage
I wonder how strong hexa strikes I could pull off on things like Ildebrann.
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11-25-2011, 02:21 AMGreatguardian
You're still weighing out opportunity cost. If you're not going to be melee'ing the whole time, then you lose out on a ton of magic-specific buffs when you're in the backline by being on Ninja sub. Even then, if someone were to only run in and do 3 CDCs in a fight for 2k each, I could easily outdamage them overall by just staying in the backline on RDM/SCH and tossing out nukes while supporting the party.
People like to throw out Rdm's nuking potential pretty quickly, and you're most definitely not hitting that potential on /Nin with swords equipped. Likewise, if you are using swords, ditching your TP even only decently often is a huge hit to your damage. Just ask any Thief that gets conned into swapping in Thief's Knife and they'll tell you the same thing.
I've never advocated against melee on weak targets. In fact, it's significantly more efficient than nuking on weak enemies, and always will be. But if you're in a situation that warrants backing out or switching weapons, you will contribute far more damage by just being on the backlines and fully utilizing your magic.
Inb4: "Saevel>> You don't have any magic. Just Dia 3 and Cures. How pedantic."