Whats your favorite subjob for RDM? What is your least favorite?

[Crimson_Slasher]

Id rather be a substitute, well rounded hybrid than an incredibly restricted specialist when i play rdm, i signed up to be a hybrid.

While that statement is nice and all, look at it this way, most jobs have more than one function, they have a core function, but also a second, powerful function. And like people say, nobody is gonna invite a dedicated enfeebler, we lack enhancing, we lack cure power, and we are insufficient as nukers and meleers. For me, id rather use those plentiful, single target extended duration buffs, the swords/daggers we are so infatuated with, and the gear that we love to collect to chip away at a mob. Id rather let my mp tick endlessly to full, slinging a few enfeebs while i poke, prod, jab, slap, and strike a mob, and let that excess mp that im carrying go towards a few emergency uses, like helpful cures, and hastes when the whm cant manage with all the curing. I know i can likely hit as hard/harder with nukes, but if i dump my mp gauge, then it takes me that much longer to pop convert for an emergency cure.

But i like to be a mode switcher. I love a lot of "outdated" concepts. And again, just like anyone else, part of rdm is nostalgia and the flexibility it has in roles. Too many people say "you want to do x on rdm? go level another job!" but i find that funny, because just about in every way we are matched and outclassed. Enhancing is best left to whm/brd/cor/smn, Enfeebs can be done by brd/nin/blu, melee by most jobs, heals by whm, and soon sch, and even smn can do well if they utilize carbuncle's ward pacts. Nukes have been covered by blm/sch, and almost matched by blu, and even smn can sling magical damage. Tanking isnt even on the radar for the most part, so where does that leave us? Just like you said, enhancing our weakest trait will "NEVER" make us wanted, but unless enfeebles are the ONLY way to kill a mob, neither will those, and as long as someone can enhance better than us, neither will that. Those are what you consider our "Strongest" traits.

So what would you improve? They wont improve our cures/heals, they are unlikely to improve our nuking, they seem incapable of improving our enfeebling, and our enhancing/melee get passable updates at best. I personally see the biggest option being melee because, even if we become good, there will always be other jobs who can always do the job too, and that competition itself is a form of game balance, and will prevent us from being "overpowered" simply because other jobs can do it too.

I spoke my subjob peace already, page 1 or 2. But it just dumbfounds me how greatguardian wants our strengths to be improved, but shy of a total reshaping of the job (and if thats the case, why dont you play a job suited to that very task?) they will never be worth use in most events unless it is the only option period.

[Greatguardian]

What makes you think Enfeebles are not worth a party slot on their own merit? Plenty of jobs (nay, almost all of the most powerful/desired ones) gain a party slot because they excel in a single role. Specialization is always more powerful than Hybridization in a Team-based MMO. Two Red Mages will never be able to kill as fast as a Warrior and a Bard duo.

I don't particularly care what you signed up for, because that doesn't affect me. I don't particularly care what you enjoy, because you're always free to do whatever the hell you want and it won't affect me one bit. All I care about are the adjustments that are going to need to be made to the job as a whole, and I'll tell you right now that adjusting Melee won't do jack shit for Red Mage. Red Mage will be in the exact same place it is now: a funsies job where people who throw massive bitchfits or cry all the time about coming on it will be able to because no one wants to deal with their shit, and no one else because it's not worth wasting a party slot in a well-constructed group.

Re-instate the gap between WHM/SCH/BLM enfeebles and RDM enfeebles, make shit actually land, and update our spell library to level 99 and bam, suddenly leaders will start actually asking people to come on Red Mage again. I'd know, I am one.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Seriously? Yeah enfeebles are great, in theory, but not all events are focalized around one single central nm that MUST be enfeebled. And the tedious nature of applying enfeebles to every mob, when in many situations the mob will die seconds after with or without them, is not a situation where enfeebling is required. Not every event is voidwatch, most events are not big bad boss-challenge-timeattack styled content, in fact, voidwatch and some of WOE seems to be of the few exceptions to this rule.

Anyone can call themselves a leader, but a leader doesnt just decide what people do and go and tell them to deal with it, a real leader uses the people they have and encourages them to be their best. Sure they can fix enfeebles, but you are clearly dilusional to think just making them land, and making a few petty spells with solve the problem alone. And how far can you improve them before people start pissing and moaning about it. We need just the right amount or it broken to such a level that theres no shadow of doubt its needed and for the devs to openly state "theyre ment to be brokenly powerful, deal with it."

[Neisan_Quetz]

And? Such events typically do not require large groups in any way shape or form. What matters is making Rdm viable in a party setting, and making enfeebles relevant on harder mobs can go a long way, if done right. Otherwise enjoy soloing.

[Greatguardian]

Lol. Sorry, but I've been leading linkshells in this game longer than most of this forum has been playing at all. You don't need to lecture me on proper leadership and utilization of talent. There is, however, a balance that must be struck between utilizing a player correctly and utilizing their jobs correctly. Thankfully, I've generally been lucky enough to lead a group of people mature enough to understand the necessity of that balance.

There is a difference between commanding Player A to get on Bard and asking Player A to get on Bard if he doesn't mind, because we could really use one tonight. Plenty of people on these boards paint me as an authoritarian bastard, but honestly, you can ask anyone who's been in a linkshell with me and you'll damn near-universally hear the same thing. I'm a nice, laid back guy who excels in group management, logistics, and leadership.

With that in mind, no, I really don't lose anything by asking people to come RDM or not-RDM. There is no loss of morale. In the case that someone really does throw a hissy fit over being asked to come not-RDM, or intentionally falls asleep at the wheel because they can't come what they want all the time, chances are they're not someone myself or anyone else in my shell wants to work with anyways.

Enfeebles are also pretty boss. If you're working with mobs weak enough that they're being spammed and you don't need enfeebles anyways, Red mage's ancillary magical functions are more than sufficient to handle these situations already. Red Mage doesn't lack in non-Abyssean lowman, it lacks in serious party/group play.

[Crimson_Slasher]

The point im getting at is the situations where you would need a dedicated enfeebler are few and far, as like you said, most spammed mobs (Nyzul, assaults, limbus, einherjar, dynamis, select abyssea) Involve mobs downed too quickly to need enfeebling, which while a rdm can handle said mobs with nukes/etc, why not take a better mage, or a DD? And on the hardest nms, in many cases, the enfeebling is either totally resisted, doesnt take full effect and at times cant even be noticed, and once again, outside of dia, another job tends to be more effective. I may not be a big ls leader like you, but thats really neither here nor there, i do my leading in the field with people i do and dont know, to keep it varied, but i AM a number cruncher, and ive found few situations, even when the enfeebles can be landed, that again, outside of dia, actually benefit in finishing time due to enfeebles.

However i would like to see a general boost to everything of rdm, thats partly what gain spells are for, mnd/int for enfeebs and cures/nukes sorta, str/dex for melee, agi/vit for tanking, and chr for...being sexy i suppose? But yes, i dont want to see total stagnation of the job, i wanna see magic improved too, but i think that just enfeebs being fixed arent nearly enough, and frankly, i miss the old days when skillchains were planned. Id love to see situations where every party member is at ground-zero, skillchaining because it has something to contribute, and because of this, and because not every "mage" should have to back-line in every event just to get invites, id like to see more melee love.

Thats my opinion and stance, it isnt wrong, i offered a very broken mage friendly idea a while back but it was something that would truely make rdm overpowered and hence was just an idea, not realistic. Thats what the board is for though, not attacking eachother but the issues, and offering potential fixes. Though that is something a lot of rdms would like to see prolly, a 50% higher mp cost for 50% more potency. a 150mp 1000 damage nuke raised to 225mp 1500 damage, a 88mp 400hp cure 4 moved to 132mp 600 hp cure (before gear potency calculation) but then we would be a veritible super-mage, throwing blm-grade nukes and whm-grade heals.

[ManaKing]

Re-instate the gap between WHM/SCH/BLM enfeebles and RDM enfeebles, make shit actually land, and update our spell library to level 99 and bam, suddenly leaders will start actually asking people to come on Red Mage again. I'd know, I am one.

Enfeebles are also pretty boss. If you're working with mobs weak enough that they're being spammed and you don't need enfeebles anyways, Red mage's ancillary magical functions are more than sufficient to handle these situations already. Red Mage doesn't lack in non-Abyssean lowman, it lacks in serious party/group play.

I agree with GG. No matter what kind of RDM you are, Enfeebles are what we need. Regardless of subjob, we need to be able to do our job (see what i did there, keeping it in line with what we are discussing).

RDMs can significantly reduce the amount of damage that people engaging a mob take by reducing that mobs total damage through debuffs and to a lesser extent buffs. It doesn't matter if you are engaging or sitting back, your job is to keep the people around the mob in good shape. Slow, Blind, Paralyze, Addle, Bio/Dia, Dispel and to a lesser extent silence, bind, gravity, and sleep/break are all good ways to buffer the tanks and DDs from quick or near instant KOs from more powerful mobs. Currently, these spells are completely at the mercy of how cheaply the mobs were constructed.

We are there to help WHMs keep people alive. The WHM can do nothing to keep people alive if the mob is going at full speed and can just run through people faster than they can cure them. A WHM is a poor solution to the instant KO from damage, because there isn't anything they can do when they can't slow down a mobs damage. RDM can't do anything either, but that is because RDM is broken right now. We are supposed to have tools to be able to slow mobs down and take the wind out of their sails, but currently our enfeebles might not work at all.

The point of RDMs is to make it so either themselves or others can outlast what they are engaged with. We are cripplers, we are protectors, and we are support in the broadest implication of the word. If you are willing to learn how to play all of RDM, there will never be a situation where you won't be useful. The problem with that last statement is that currently we are undervalued because we are underpowered. The situation where you won't be useful is the situation where a party fills up and every jobs does what you can do, but better. That is the current state of RDM. Not only was our main focus arbitrarily thrown out of existence by whatever amazing person came up with mobs being straight immune to our magic, but all of our other strengths aren't strong enough to make us desirable. You should not take a RDM to anything right if you can get anything else, unless you know that the RDM can land enfeebles on it.

We need enfeebles back and we need to be better at them than everyone else. Buffs, w/e they are cool, if you want to include them I will never say no. But this bullshit with our only A rank Skill being no better than anyone else's in any qualitative sense that matters to a party needs to go. People give us back our enfeebles. That is the first of many steps that RDM needs to get it back on track.

[saevel]

I agree with GG. No matter what kind of RDM you are, Enfeebles are what we need. Regardless of subjob, we need to be able to do our job (see what i did there, keeping it in line with what we are discussing).

RDMs can significantly reduce the amount of damage that people engaging a mob take by reducing that mobs total damage through debuffs and to a lesser extent buffs. It doesn't matter if you are engaging or sitting back, your job is to keep the people around the mob in good shape. Slow, Blind, Paralyze, Addle, Bio/Dia, Dispel and to a lesser extent silence, bind, gravity, and sleep/break are all good ways to buffer the tanks and DDs from quick or near instant KOs from more powerful mobs. Currently, these spells are completely at the mercy of how cheaply the mobs were constructed.

We are there to help WHMs keep people alive. The WHM can do nothing to keep people alive if the mob is going at full speed and can just run through people faster than they can cure them. A WHM is a poor solution to the instant KO from damage, because there isn't anything they can do when they can't slow down a mobs damage. RDM can't do anything either, but that is because RDM is broken right now. We are supposed to have tools to be able to slow mobs down and take the wind out of their sails, but currently our enfeebles might not work at all.

The point of RDMs is to make it so either themselves or others can outlast what they are engaged with. We are cripplers, we are protectors, and we are support in the broadest implication of the word. If you are willing to learn how to play all of RDM, there will never be a situation where you won't be useful. The problem with that last statement is that currently we are undervalued because we are underpowered. The situation where you won't be useful is the situation where a party fills up and every jobs does what you can do, but better. That is the current state of RDM. Not only was our main focus arbitrarily thrown out of existence by whatever amazing person came up with mobs being straight immune to our magic, but all of our other strengths aren't strong enough to make us desirable. You should not take a RDM to anything right if you can get anything else, unless you know that the RDM can land enfeebles on it.

We need enfeebles back and we need to be better at them than everyone else. Buffs, w/e they are cool, if you want to include them I will never say no. But this bullshit with our only A rank Skill being no better than anyone else's in any qualitative sense that matters to a party needs to go. People give us back our enfeebles. That is the first of many steps that RDM needs to get it back on track.

Unfortunately, sitting back and casting enfeebles just means you get to see them be resisted more. This is SE's fault in their attempt to crush soloist RDM's. People can sling all the mud they want, eventually it boils down to them wanting RDM to just be a WHM. And even if SE "fix's" enfeebles, it's not a full time job, wasn't in 04,05,06,07,08 nor anything after that. You slap them on and ... then sit around ... with your light staff shoved where the sun don't shine waiting for them to wear off to reapply.

Current enfeeble library is,
Useful ones
Dia III: Godly, can't be resisted and effect is direct and scales dramatically
Slow II: mediocre, can be resisted but few NM's have high resistance to it. Scaling is poor due to haste formula.
Para II: potent on anything not resistant, absolutely worthless on anything that is resistant which unfortunately includes most of the boss's you'd want enfeebles on.
Poison II: Damage isn't high enough to matter, can be useful in long solo's with Saboteur
Addle: Won't make any significant difference on NM's but seeing as few are resistant might as well toss in on the stack

Then the crap enfeebles
Blind II: Only useful in low-man situations with a evasion tank vs a weak NM. Vs anything bigger you won't lower it's accuracy to under the accuracy cap.
Silence: everything that you'd want to silence is immune, nothing more to say.
Bind: see Silence
Gravity: see Bind
Break: see Gravity
Sleep: see Break
Bio III: I hold my own special hatred for people who insist on using this. Other then some sort of /SCH long DoT solo it's completely useless. The -attack won't actually change the damage anyone takes due to enemy Ratio being floored at 1. And what's worse, it blocks / overwrites our best debuff Dia III, so not only does it do nothing, but its worse then nothing as it's blocking an extremely useful effect. The sole reason to have 1 merit in this is for the ridiculous VWNM procs, that's it. I'll say it one last time, using Bio III will NOT reduce the damage your tanks are taking. At most it could slightly reduce the CS MNK or zerked WAR due to their defense being so low to begin with.

So out of our "master of enfeebling" we have five useful enfeebles, out of those five three are consistent and out of those three only one is great. It doesn't take a large amount of effort to keep the applicable enfeebles in place. That's the whole reason I started building a melee set to begin with. If I'm going to be standing around with my light staff shoved up my --- I might as well contribute some form of damage. And from there it grew.

And before the annoying people try to say how *great* slow II is, let me demonstrate. Slow and Haste the same thing, one is merely the negative of the other. Thus while we state 30% haste as 100/(100-30), 30% slow then must be stated as 100/(100+30). Wanna see what happens as you scale slow up?

100/115 = 0.8695 (86.95% attack speed)
100/130 = 0.7692 (76.92% attack speed)
100/150 = 0.6666 (66.66% attack speed)

And finally the ZOMG awesomeness of 100% slow
100/200 = 0.5000 (50% attack speed).

Slow gets exponentially worse as you stack more of it, its the inverse of the exponential effect of haste and defense down. This is why I stopped using saboteur on Slow II, I realized that it was better used on other enfeebles if possible. Along with the fact that regular hits were not even scratching our tanks, it was the monsters TP moves that are the most damaging, and we can't do squat about that. Not even the age old "TP FEEd!!1010101011 oHH NOES010101" argument works as most NM's can now use TP moves without needing TP, thanks SE.

So let the bashing, hating and name calling continue.

[cidbahamut]

And even if SE "fix's" enfeebles, it's not a full time job, wasn't in 04,05,06,07,08 nor anything after that. You slap them on and ... then sit around ... with your light staff shoved where the sun don't shine waiting for them to wear off to reapply.

Only if you don't know how to spend excess MP.

[Greatguardian]

Only if you don't know how to spend excess MP.

This is essentially what it comes down to.

This whole "Pink mages only cast Haste and then afk" strawman is getting old. Good Red Mages were always riding their Convert timers and MP bars to the limit with their spells. I'm sorry that most Red Mages were, well, bad, but that's the case with most jobs really. Giving bad Red Mages swords isn't going to fix that fact, either.

Red Mage, even as a pure mage, plays significantly differently than White Mage. Conflating the two is insulting, but that's par for the course with Saevel so whatever.