One Tank Job Out of 20 Is Bad Game Design

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Originally Posted by Yarly

What's more pathetic is that out of 18 people, with abyssea having been released for so long, only one of them had PLD leveled and geared. What would you call that? Bad human design?

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It is called band wagon mentality. They only level what is considered good at the time.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

It is called band wagon mentality. They only level what is considered good at the time.

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quoted for truth

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Comment deleted by Moderator

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[Comment deleted by Moderator] And I have other jobs. I'm not speaking for myself, I'm speaking for "The 99 percent." Meaning, all the people who aren't elitists and still find a fun challenge in things that elitists call easy. If people don't say something that's a load of crap, I won't have any reason to speak against it. You think XYZ thing is easy. That's great. Some people think it isn't. That doesn't automatically make those people idiots, and that is what I take issue with. Although you are now taking a nasty offensive attitude with me, you at least don't normally stereotypically declare everyone idiots.

That's all there is to say on that. If you think something's easy, great. Good for you (I'm serious, not sarcastic). Just don't act like EVERYONE is like you and thinks the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'm speaking for "The 99 percent." Meaning, all the people who aren't elitists and still find a fun challenge in things that elitists call easy.

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Why are you speaking for them in a thread for content that wasn't designed for them?

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Originally Posted by Zagen

ITT: Leveling jobs takes forever. Learning how to be competent on your non-favorite job is impossible.

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I've tried to lv MNK when Abyssea was MNKwagon just so it's "easier" for me to get things done, and I couldn't take it past lv 13. The job is boring as fk to play with, and I can't help if I fall asleep whenever I play it.

So no, lving a job is hard for me, I can't overcome boringness when I play the game for fun not for work. If it's easy for you, good for you. But don't use your standard to judge others.

And getting a second account is hard for me too, period. Again, you can afford $26 doesn't mean I can, not everyone live the same life, I have more important stuff to spend money on. If you can afford extra account, good for you. Just leave others alone.

And stop thinking you're so elite and better than others just because you can stand the boringness of lving a job you don't like to play with. It has nothing to do with your skill/gear/knowdge and w/e. Like playing MNK in Abyssea is hard? You pretty much just engage and pop JA/WS.

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Originally Posted by Afania

Like playing MNK in Abyssea is hard? You pretty much just engage and pop JA/WS.

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And stupid people can't even do that properly.

Yeah, any MNK can 2 man Shinryu/Rani etc. Just JA and WS.

I don't give a shit about all the personal attack and stuff in this thread, I just wanted to say I don't really consider anything that can be 3-4manned with average gear (empy +1, no empy weapon) without any real chance of wiping to be hard. This probably includes 98% of abyssea, including most zone bosses and catuare. Unbrewed, that is.

Even pantokrator is more annoying than he is hard. It isn't hard to put together a strategy with like 6-8 people where you cannot possibly lose, unless your tank and healers DC.

Most fights actually get harder the more bodies you throw at it anyway.

Is it hard for certain jobs to solo certain NMs? Sure. Does it make the NM inherently hard when it was designed to be taken down by a group? Not really. That's like saying Windurst mission 10 is the hardest fight in the game "cause i want to solo it on whm".

Almost every fight in this game is designed to be beaten by a group, saying they are hard because you can't solo them on whatever job is just ridiculous.

or maybe you could take the week to level PLD to level 95 which includes getting skill ups, problem solved. Now your LS will have 2 PLDs.

I honestly see it being difficult for them to design a fight to be won by 6-18 that can't also be one by the 2-4 of the pro-est of the pros. In virtually all cases, the difficulty in a large group comes from TP spam. When you lowman anything, that TP spam is suddenly not a problem. The only real counter to that is super high regain so the monster spams TP no matter what.

Probably the only thing that will please you is a new Absolute Virtue-type mob...

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Like playing MNK in Abyssea is hard? You pretty much just engage and pop JA/WS.

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Like playing WHM in *anywhere* is hard? You pretty much just sit there and pop cures.

..... Anything can be made to sound super easy by oversimplifying.

"Like playing Tetris on a gameboy is hard? You pretty much just stack the blocks..."

"Like playing Battletoads on NES with 2 players is hard? you pretty much just get to the end of each level.."

*ahem* *deep breath*

Anyway.... as far as the actual topic goes, as I said before: I don't see any reason to complain that a job which is hardly ever used these days is getting a chance to shine in an event. Shouldn't we all be happy PLD has a purpose?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I honestly see it being difficult for them to design a fight to be won by 6-18 that can't also be one by the 2-4 of the pro-est of the pros. In virtually all cases, the difficulty in a large group comes from TP spam. When you lowman anything, that TP spam is suddenly not a problem. The only real counter to that is super high regain so the monster spams TP no matter what.

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When Voidwatch requires almost every single job/spell/ja for procs as options, lower your player count = lower proc rate = lower drop rate = not really worth small manning. There's a video floating around of a SCH soloing the Harpie VWNM so it doesn't take a huge group but without procs your drops suck and you've just wasted your time.

TP Spam if it is a concern at all is something that only happens with ignorant players. So 6 vs. 18 TP spam should be less for the 18 as they'll proc faster as well as kill faster barring your example of a regain mob.

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When Voidwatch requires almost every single job/spell/ja for procs as options, lower your player count = lower proc rate = lower drop rate = not really worth small manning.

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Right, but that's just encouragement to roll with larger groups. It's nothing to do with difficulty.

Anyway, the point of that paragraph was about making a fight hard. The qiestion is how do you make a fight too hard to low-man but not too hard for a large group? I guess pandy warden sort of had the idea by spawning lots of damaging adds, but I can't think of many other ways to do hard without doing "almost impossible" to the best of the best

[Comments deleted by Moderator]

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Right, but that's just encouragement to roll with larger groups. It's nothing to do with difficulty.

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The longer a fight takes the more risk involved. That in and over itself makes the fight more difficult for smaller groups over larger groups because a smaller group will take longer than a larger group. For example duoing Sobek if it gets off 2 Tyrant Tusks that kills both players the fight becomes harder and you must attempt to zombie it. When there are more than 2 people the fight becomes easier because even if 2 people die to Tyrant Tusk there are others to fill in the spot.

Using my Sobek example, more people means more job options becoming available thus allowing for more proc options. So not only does a larger group increase your chance of surviving a bad luck case but it also increases your chances at drops.

Making content harder than it has to be =/= Content is hard.

Though, on a somewhat-related note, I find it kinda funny that my Voidwatch LS has been recruiting for a few weeks now, and has received applications from plenty of Relic/Empyrean players with some of the best gear and the most useful jobs in the game, yet we haven't received a single application from a bloody Drk, Drg, or Bst.

You know it's bad when you have to change your recruitment page from "Have a bloody mage or a Relic/Mythic/Emp", to "Just don't be retarded, we need more DDs for procs".

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Making content harder than it has to be =/= Content is hard.

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I'd be interested in knowing how you determine how hard something should be. (meant with all seriousness, not sarcasm)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'd be interested in knowing how you determine how hard something should be. (meant with all seriousness, not sarcasm)

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If it is easily done in a setup or a strategy that is easy to assemble or implement, then it is easy.

Everything in Abyssea can be killed Mnk+Whm, or full proc'd Whm+Nin+War+Mnk+Blm+Blu.

Likewise, it is extremely easy to level and gear those jobs with Abyssean and GoV EXP.

FFXI's dynamic job system isn't there to promote job individuality, it's there to promote job synthesis as a viable tactical option. If something is harder to do on X, the Developers expect you to change your job to Y. That's part of the decision-making process that is expected of players who have the ability to level every job in the game in the same character.

Mnk+Whm may be cookie-cutter, but it's easy and a viable option for literally anyone. If you choose to make poor tactical decisions for sentimental reasons, then you are actively making content harder than it was intended to be.

(Major edit)

I feel like I might be jumping the gun here, so I'll back up a bit. I feel like you're personally addressing me because you see my character set with main job as PUP. I'm not asking that the jobs I want to play be able to win at everything. But every job should be useful for winning at *something* meaningful. Any job that isn't reasonably part of a sound winning strategy for one or more pieces of endgame content is just extra baggage that shouldn't be there in the first place.

I'm not judging the difficulty of an event based on whether or not PUP can win at it. I hope that's not what your thinking, and I also hope you're not subtly trying to pick on me here. Maybe you can clear this up for me.

No one personally attacks me because my main job is PUP

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I strongly disagree with this after watching a BST solo Turul. (much to my annoyance... I wanted to brew him... BST took about an hour to kill it without a brew)

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1. The point wasn't the length of time, fact is a PET job can solo 99+% of Abyssea.

2. I'm calling bull**** on 1 hour to kill something especially Turul.

1 hour is perfectly believable especially with the quality of BST I've seen, I don't know why you think it isn't.

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Sorry I read half the thread and got bored of people arguing over what "end game content" is - so didn't read past page 3.

In response to the OP's topic however - PLD is a luxury. A handful of jobs can successfully tank T1-T4 (sandy, windy, basty) VW nm's reasonably comfortably. Might need a few extra cures, yet can still be done with a few setup modifications. In fact you can probably do this for Jeuno/Zilart nm's as well - with the right setup.

As for Q.Q about not having a PLD at your disposal - at ragnarok I would nearly run out of fingers to count on if I were to name all the Ochain/Aegis PLD's I knew on here that tank VW nm's on a consistent basis. Have you not noticed the large amount of Ochains that have popped up ever since VW came out?

If you don't have a PLD in the LS - shout for it! It's not hard - I am pretty certain you will be able to find one..

As mentioned in previous posts - What is a WHM designed for? Healing. What is a BLM designed for? Nuking. What is a PLD designed for? Tanking!

Every role has it's specialists - yet also has it's hybrids. A SCH can assist with heals & nukes, a NIN can tank, enfeeb & light DD, a MNK can heavy DD & tank moderately (ie. Hybrid). A PLD is designed to tank (ie. Specialist).

So in summary - No, PLD is not the only tank. Other jobs *can* do it, just not as well as PLD can (Abyssea drops that theory out the window however, due to atmas).

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If you insist on making things ten times harder than they have to be, that still doesn't make those things innately hard.

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The same can be said to anything in the game. Voidwatch is cake. AV was cake at 75 (now it's pretty clear that they were expecting you to bring several alliances to keep the fight going after meteor).

AFK laughing myself into a tiny little ball.

"Give Paladin a purpose again!"

*patches later*

"Baw, Paladin has a purpose again!"

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AV was cake at 75

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So how many times did you beat it at 75 with legitimate tactics that didn't result in a patch to change AV, or that didn't get one or more people suspended or banned?

AV was only "cake" for a short time (before cap rises) when DRK zerging worked. Then they patched that out, and it was hard again.

(Wall of Justice doesn't count either, that was patched and people got in trouble for it)

Nobody did beat it because you needed 3-4 alliances to take it down, BUT it's artificial difficulty (like voidwatch anyway, and PW). There is very little content that is difficult for a given realistic number of people. Out of my mind, Einherjar was decent in difficulty even with 30+ people, mostly because there was no place for gimp DDs in tier III. Maxing out the number of coins per run in dynamis was also semi-difficult for the same reasons. And of course salvage ! Killing all NMs plus boss with 6 could only be done with well geared player and with a good organization.

Difficulty is difficulty whether or not it comes from mechanics that feel forced/artificial.

I'd agree that salvage was one of the better challenges in the game (prior to cap increase), though it still allowed for many jobs to participate as long as the people playing them were competent and not stupid. PLD remained under-appriciated during that time though. It's good to see it being used in VW.

PLD is no more useful in voidwatch. Everytime people think something is hard they think PLD. I've done the level 90 fights on mnk w/o trouble. SE gave us cheats with sherzo, earthen armor and perfect defense. Anyone is immune to damage with EA+sherzo, not just paladin so yeah. And I'd say PLD is less at its avantage because EA+sherzo is more efficient when you take more damage.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

PLD is no more useful in voidwatch. Everytime people think something is hard they think PLD. I've done the level 90 fights on mnk w/o trouble. SE gave us cheats with sherzo, earthen armor and perfect defense. Anyone is immune to damage with EA+sherzo, not just paladin so yeah. And I'd say PLD is less at its avantage because EA+sherzo is more efficient when you take more damage.

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Please tell me that's hyperbole and you don't actually believe that scherzo/EA makes you immune to hundred fists, quadruple attack, and extreme DoT like Kaustra.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

PLD is no more useful in voidwatch. Everytime people think something is hard they think PLD. I've done the level 90 fights on mnk w/o trouble. SE gave us cheats with sherzo, earthen armor and perfect defense. Anyone is immune to damage with EA+sherzo, not just paladin so yeah. And I'd say PLD is less at its avantage because EA+sherzo is more efficient when you take more damage.

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This is my final straw for you, apparently your stupidity knows no bounds. Just ecasue you don't NEED a PLD in voidwatch, doesn't mean that it's 'no more useful in voidwatch'. Voidwatch requires a tank that can keep hate without dealing too much damage during the proccing stage. That, you incompetent fool, is paladin.

Finally time to add you to ignore list methinks.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

This is my final straw for you, apparently your stupidity knows no bounds. Just ecasue you don't NEED a PLD in voidwatch, doesn't mean that it's 'no more useful in voidwatch'. Voidwatch requires a tank that can keep hate without dealing too much damage during the proccing stage. That, you incompetent fool, is paladin.

Finally time to add you to ignore list methinks.

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It's also nice to have a pld to hold the adds.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

This is my final straw for you, apparently your stupidity knows no bounds. Just ecasue you don't NEED a PLD in voidwatch, doesn't mean that it's 'no more useful in voidwatch'. Voidwatch requires a tank that can keep hate without dealing too much damage during the proccing stage. That, you incompetent fool, is paladin.

Finally time to add you to ignore list methinks.

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I think you are the ignorant one. A DD tank can stop dding while procing...

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A DD tank can stop dding

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One would sort of expect that if a "DD tank" stops DDing, they'll therefore stop tanking.

Yes, it's not that simple, but I still did a doubletake when I read that....

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

One would sort of expect that if a "DD tank" stops DDing, they'll therefore stop tanking.

Yes, it's not that simple, but I still did a doubletake when I read that....

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Precisely. Especially if it's a DD job without hate tools like provoke (eg mnk/nin)

If pld tank come /war monk too just saying.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

If pld tank come /war monk too just saying.

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Bad english design.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

If pld tank come /war monk too just saying.

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/WAR has VE hate tools not CE hate tools. When you're taking hits you lose CE meaning you want CE hate generating tools like Cure Spells, the VE is less important. If VE mattered MNK would have Boost spamming as a hate argument.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

(Major edit)

I feel like I might be jumping the gun here, so I'll back up a bit. I feel like you're personally addressing me because you see my character set with main job as PUP. I'm not asking that the jobs I want to play be able to win at everything. But every job should be useful for winning at *something* meaningful. Any job that isn't reasonably part of a sound winning strategy for one or more pieces of endgame content is just extra baggage that shouldn't be there in the first place.

I'm not judging the difficulty of an event based on whether or not PUP can win at it. I hope that's not what your thinking, and I also hope you're not subtly trying to pick on me here. Maybe you can clear this up for me.

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No one's "Picking on you". I just pick up very specific trends that you seem to follow every time you get into a posting binge like this. When a job that you like, typically Pup or Smn or any "Unpopular job" which would encompass these, comes under fire from the community you will stand up and become as defensive as possible - to the point where you often contradict yourself or stumble over your own logic - in order to preserve your job's "pride".

All jobs do not need to be useful at everything. That is why we have Mog Houses and the ability to change jobs. All jobs are good at something. The difference lies in the artificial value of those strengths as dictated by the community. If Abyssea is more "popular" than some BCNMs, then Ninja will be more popular than Beastmaster or Summoner. That does not mean that Ninja is anywhere near as valuable as a Summoner in some BCNMs, but simply that no one particularly cares about BCNMs.

FFXI's dynamic job system was designed make changing jobs as much a tactical element of gameplay as how you actually fight the monster. You don't see people throwing 5 Warriors at Lorbulcrud and coming out on top, do you? The game is designed in such a way that teamwork and job setups are as essential to winning a battle as the battle itself. When the difficulty of monsters and battlefields is assessed, it is done so assuming that the players have arranged themselves in the most effective manner possible - because that is the smart thing to do.

If people want to add artificial difficulty by bringing Summoners and Dark Knights to Abyssea, they're welcome to it. But that doesn't make Abyssea hard. It just means that they are adding artificial difficulty to an otherwise easy event.

If making things more difficult makes it more fun for you, by all means do it. However, that does not make the content hard. It just means that you are willing to make it harder on yourself in order to have more fun. Fun is good. Keep it up. But you can't, at the same time, turn around and say that the content is not easy. It is easy. You just have to change jobs.

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That is why we have Mog Houses and the ability to change jobs. All jobs are good at something.

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You say this a lot yet you also frequently call it into question. And No- Every job SHOULD be useful for something. If it's not useful, then it shouldn't exist.

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If making things more difficult makes it more fun for you, by all means do it. However, that does not make the content hard.

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No, of course it doesn't. But you still haven't answered the question of what DOES make content hard. I can only say for sure that something isn't as hard as it should be when it was clearly designed to be fought by a larger group but gets beaten by one or two players.

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If people want to add artificial difficulty by bringing Summoners and Dark Knights to Abyssea

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Bringing <insert job here> shouldn't be adding "artificial difficulty" as long as each key role of a well-formed group (e.g. tank, damage, support) is in some way filled by each person present. If bringing <insert job here> is a general liability (not a specific liability, e.g. bringing black mages to a fight against something that's magic immune), then that job is fundamentally flawed and needs to be fixed.

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That does not mean that Ninja is anywhere near as valuable as a Summoner in some BCNMs, but simply that no one particularly cares about BCNMs.

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I see it as a problem if the only thing something is percieved to be "good" at is something that nobody wants to do.

The developers DO expect that most of us likely have more than one max level job. However, they do NOT expect everyone to have leveled every job when playing high level content. Different jobs can be used in different ways without making things more difficult than they have to be. You don't seem to recognize this. If you need melee damage, any one of several jobs can provide that. One or more of them might do a bit more damage than the others, but generally you're not making a fight "artificially difficult" by bringing something other than the current bandwagon DD. Any of several jobs can provide healing. Many times you can use any of these jobs without making the fight "artificially difficult." Any of a number of jobs are capable of "tanking." Many times you can use any of these jobs without making the fight "artificially difficult." I have 5 jobs to 95. Not all of them, but if you can't reasonably find some way to include me in a fight on any one of those five without making it more "artificially difficult," then I see a problem.

None of us uses different jobs from those in the strategy picked first by elitists with the specific intent of making content harder. The elitist community of today almost never uses any job other than MNK, WAR, WHM, BLM and BRD. That's only 25% of the classes in the game. This doesn't happen in any other MMO I've played. In WoW, DDO, FFXIV, LOTRO, MapleStory, and most other MMOs you don't see a couple jobs always being used and the rest just ignored.

Again: What DOES make something hard? What are the conditions for you? That you can't duo it on MNK and WHM? That it's impossible for the average player?

1) Actually, when looking at a setup for NMs, I'm sure the developers do assume that all players have access to all jobs. Or, rather, that each player has diverse enough of a job spread - or diverse enough of a linkshell - in order to create any feasible job combination.

2) I already said all jobs are good at something. They are all useful for something. The difference is how much the community values that "something" that they are good at. Summoner can solo a hell of a lot better than Warrior, and can deal hate-free TP-less damage from a long range. Does the community care about other people solo'ing? Not really. Is hate-free TP-less damage from a long range important in Abyssea? Nah. In Voidwatch or future hard content? It's purdy nice, bro.

3) What makes content hard? The difficulty of content is assessed based on how difficult the content is to complete using the most effective jobs, most effective strategy, and the intended number of players.

Hard content is content that is difficult or challenging to complete effectively despite using the most effective jobs, most effective strategy, and the full intended allotment of players.

In this sense, most content in FFXI really isn't that hard. AV pre-PD was not "hard", it simply had absolutely ridiculous expectations (64+ players, etc). Any time where you use fewer people than the intended allotment for content, you are making it more difficult than it was intended to be.

Of course, I'm sure this will still boil down to how unreasonable expectation of player skills makes my assessment "unfair" to all of the game's casuals. I consider Voidwatch "harder" content, even though I don't have much trouble with it personally. I know a group of 18 casuals, despite a perfect setup, can still flail around miserably and die in Voidwatch. Abyssea, however, is absolutely nothing if not easy. Throw a group of 18 hamsters at monsters in Abyssea and they will die.

First para: The latter part of it is more accurate. They dont expect all jobs from everyone, only that someone can team up with people who do have the jobs they are missing.