Ideas for Paladin Modification

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Paladins also need a reliable interrupt. Shield bash on a 5 min cool down isn't too useful. It should be changed to like 10 or 15 sec to be more in line with head butt...

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Like this idea a lot. Both are similar effect but with a huge difference in recast times, fix it.

Except Headbutt is a gimp Stun effect most Nms resist while Shield bash is Paladin's counterpart to Weapon Bash and works 95-99% of the time or so?

I thought the idea of cover as a trait in the original post was an interesting idea. I also agree that shield bash (weapon bash as well) should be adjusted. Would it be possible to have ...Bash JA work like charges kinda the way a SCH has charges?

Actually, I do like the idea of Cover being changed into a Job Trait, as it's too much of a hassle to use for only 30sec~ when the person you use it on doesn't always sit still so you can actually cover them...

This change would make people more alert and stop running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

The downside to this though is if it is a 100% proc, it could be game breaking for certain events. Black mages and Samurai, etc. could idle behind the Paladin without worry of beig harmed by any Non-Area Effecting attacks, etc..

At the very least I think reducing the Cover recast to 1~1.5min would be a bit more fair along with adjusting the angle of degree to where the target you wish to Cover has to be at to be Covered. If this were a smaller recastable ability it will also make it more commonly used enough to encourage players to actually stop running from the defending Paladin's protection.

Another thing Paladin is going to require soon is Cure V as Cure IV can no longer keep up with the larger spikes of damage dealt to players now. Atleast by level 99 it should be considered once the content has been properly tested enough to make a successful debate on if it's still needed or not, however... As it stands now, Paladin to some extent requires the Cure V assistance incase they need to toss out a couple heals on their allies should the situation be grim with a follow-up Cure IV on theirself for that extra hate generation and still restore enough HP to last over until they can get another Cure or so in there.

Cure V is completely debatable though, but shouldn't in any way be game breaking atleast.

As for Shield Bash recast reduction being lowered to 10~15 seconds, I am not sure that will be concidered. Not that low atleast as the proc is 99% with the exception of select NM that either have high resistance to Stun or are immune to it; Also the duration is rather long on average. It would be more reasonable to have it at 2min30sec recast at most, 1min00sec minimal.

Paladin does need some work now though as they have lost the ability to tank most of the NM in the game, but I expect this to be temporarily until the level 99 content is released. I love the ideas still that everyone has submitted here still, let's keep up the brainstorming guys!

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Originally Posted by Raka

Actually, I do like the idea of Cover being changed into a Job Trait, as it's too much of a hassle to use for only 30sec~ when the person you use it on doesn't always sit still so you can actually cover them...

This change would make people more alert and stop running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

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Why not leave the JA and make a job trait that would proc like 50%ish(might even be to much)? that way the blm and such would still be at risk if they pulled to much hate

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Originally Posted by JagerForrester

Yeah 750 damage for Atonement is good, but limiting. Raising the enmity cap might hinder us too. I can see the Paladins farther away from reaching the cap with the abilities and hate we currently create versus trigger happy DDs and what they can do.

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Since mobs can do it, why can't the PLD have a "Hate Reset Move" Which resets enmity to zero for everyone in the Party but the PLD. put it on a oh let's say 10 minute timer and I think that could work.

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Originally Posted by Teraniku

Since mobs can do it, why can't the PLD have a "Hate Reset Move" Which resets enmity to zero for everyone in the Party but the PLD. put it on a oh let's say 10 minute timer and I think that could work.

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What would be the point in that? PLD's concern isn't enmity, its DD jobs being able to tank and deal a lot more damage at the same time.

Fill two "old school" party slots with one character.

I've been reading posts on this forum all day about PLD and possible adjustments and fixes... but it seems like most of these ideas don't really fix the underlying problem...

You can mess with enmity formulas all day, and give PLD 100% Cover Job Trait, Give them 5 provokes natively, what have you.
That won't fix it. It still won't make people think "hmmm I need a PLD in this party to tank in Abyssea." for most things.
People would still just have the MNK go all out and Tank all day while doing ridiculous damage, and just have the WHM cure bomb them.
Why?
Because the Mob dies faster doing that. Sometimes having the best offense IS the best defense.
Why should all the DDs hold back so the PLD can keep hate, if there is no consequence to them taking hate? (and in MNKs case, extreme benefit.)

Its a balancing headache really.
The only "solutions" I can think of are:

1) Make the new Mobs so ridiculously powerful that nothing can tank it except a PLD.
(oops, but then, the game becomes rigid again. You NEED X job for X, all other jobs inferior, etc)

2) Start swinging Nerf bats.
(thats just lose/lose for everyone)

3) Buff PLDs Damage Dealing Capabilities While It Is Tanking.

Now before you all start screaming and crying that that isn't balanced, that PLD is only supposed to be 100% defense or some such, think about this idea.

For a PLD to be relevant again, it needs to evolve and adapt to how things are working now.
We need to look at why MNK excels so much now at tanking now, and apply it to PLD with some unique finesse (just slaping on "PLDcounterstanceAbility!" is kinda uninspired)

It is the duty of Paladins to defend others and doing so, makes you want to fight harder; what if a PLD got certain Damage Dealing bonuses/Abilities for Defending other players?

This concept could be centered around Cover.

Make Cover on a lower recast and make it a "stance" of sorts.

Each attack the PLD intercepts while under cover increases the PLDs "Righteousness", a special buff that increases numerically (similar to finishing moves).
Each point in Righteousness increases the PLDs Attack and Haste/FastCast. (+enimity?)

Righteousness doesn't last a long time, it decreases over time when you aren't defending someone with Cover.

Additionally, Righteousness points could be used to activate other abilities.
Such as refreshing Shield Bash, or Cover again.

Or they can be used to buff a Cure spell, Holy/Banish for increased Damage/enimity?

I can see from most of these posts that any real change we can all agree on for sure is something fixing/updating Cover.

Reducing cast time doesn't solve the hate control issue, as hate can spin around between DDs and it makes it difficult to keep attention on one, even more so with a limited time to use it's ability.

In the sense of Cover, I still believe making it a trait is what would work best. It is on at all times, as long as other party members are behind the paladin, they get the effect. but wait, wouldnt everyone just stand by the paladin and no one else takes damage? adjust it so that you make the paladin have to do something by moving around to who needs it. instead of it just being behind the paladin, make it where you have to be directly behind the paladin, in sense. If two people are behind the paladin, if Person A is behind Paladin, and Person B is behind Person A, Person B does not gain Cover effect, since the paladin is not Directly in front of them. This way the paladin has to move to each person.

This would be the smallest fix as even the biggest damage (A brewing DD doing 15k+ dmg in a WS) can be protected by the paladin.

Now of course in Abyssea, which is the main endgame zone at the moment, most jobs dont need to cover since they can do great damage and have a better chance of surviving with High HP, High Damage and Whms Cure Bombing. So what would make paladin stand out again without reducing others in any way and keep the game balanced?

Damage Reduction Traits. +Defense is not bad but at higher levels that bit of extra defense doesn't do much to help paladin's side, but with up to 25% damage reduction. pld would be more useful to tank.

Say a monk is fighting and takes 600 damage from a hit, now paladin just with the traits take 450 damage. in 5 hits mnk took 3000 Dmg and pld took 2250 dmg, meaning it took one less hit than normal

Once the game moves out of aby pld will be again be a great tank, considering if the mobs can devastate other jobs via tp spam or spell spam. What pld does need though is a hp/mp/mdt boost. And along with that perhaps an ability to take Dmg almost like manawall but in the plds case 1/3 the damage is taken from mp instead of hp. Make it a sort of stance or something. Or a merit ability.

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Once the game moves out of aby pld will be again be a great tank, considering if the mobs can devastate other jobs via tp spam or spell spam.

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I guess pld is the only job that can wear PDT and MDT gear

Alright, time to throw out an idea of my own.

Seeing as how the playerbase trend has shifted towards emphasis on DD'ing, it makes sense to continue that route. DD'ing has been just as much a factor in tanking as staying alive. That aspect became blatant with the introduction of Atonement (and the MNK tank in abyssea... although they were tanking things like salvage bosses in the past.)

So as a means of keeping PLD competant in it's own field, upping damage is the only realistic way to do it (besides the nerf bat.) Almace helps immensely with this, and while I personally think it's good enough to justify a PLD being in a party/alliance, others may not share the sentiment.

Anywho... on to the idea.
How about something along the lines of a job trait or ability that reduces weapon delay based on enmity? Something on par with NIN's tier of Dual Wield or MNK's Martial Arts traits.

But if that sounds overpowered, there could be a stipulation like if you fall below 50% or 75% HP, the trait is inactive. Said stipulation gives us incentive to use our magic (along with dmg reduction gear), rather than wait for the WHM to take notice and Cure V you. It also makes enmity spiking JA's more useful.

Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by DreamerGuyAliquis

I've always thought it would be interesting and fun if PLD would get a Trait that would allow it to use Shields with Great Swords.
C'mon, Great Swords really don't have a main job.
Yes, yes, DRK and WAR use them.... yeah not really! DRK is all about Scythes, and they are vehement about it as people freak out when a PLD isn't "SWORD + BOARD or GTFO" (even when GS, club, and staff are already situationally useful.)
Giving PLDs the option of great sword, and letting them retain Shield could help give PLDs some DD + defensive options to employ in abyssea and in future areas. Traits, job ability and or Stances could be employed to balance this

-STANCES- (like NIN, WHM and SAM employ to their jobs) would be a great addition to PLD.
A way for PLD to Maximize Defense, Healing Magic, etc, while actually tanking and then a way for them to Maximize their offense to regain enmity when the mob is looking at the MNKs, i mean DDs.

Why not give PLD some Holy Destructive power? if a MNK can be the be all end all Tank + DD... may as well buff PLD up and give it some more relevance.

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i kind of like this ideah how about bucklers become a arm or sholder wearing shield that can be used with two handed weapons on all jobs

if you ask me i know the frustration of being a paladin and trying to keep hate and being really reliant on mp and buffs to keep hate. paladins should be able to use there shields as a weapon like a ninja dual weilding 2 katanas why not paladin dual weilding a one handed weapon and a shield. shields should do better damage then what shield bash puts out. over haul the base def of all shields to a higher number and make that def number also there attack also add a few shield base weapon skills that either dish out stat enfeebles to enemys or buffs the paladin and party. even better the shield adds a ws onto any ws you use with your main hand example you do attonment shield closes attonment with some kind of shield bashing ws that causes a burst if you do spirits within the shield follows up by healing the paladin with the energy taken if you savage blade the shield on landing will do savage uppercut and launch enemy into the air and stun them. then you can always get some kind of counterbash on every shield block

i have always said that the kinds of armor that paladin has had horrible stats they dont do enough and require massive macroing to i would like to see armor that is more versitile and offer a better assortment of stats or some way to merge stats of current armors in the game to make them into better suits. Paladins main problem is horrible weak base damage numbers on there swords that you can choose, not everyone can get a burtgang or an excaliubur at 75 swords needed to have a base attack of 44 minimal and most decent ones were in there 30's other then bluemage no job really uses swords and relys on them like pld the heavy espandon types had good damage but stats were lousy for tanking and delay was slow an espandon type sword with emnity and def stats or double attack attributes would of been nice back then. the other problem is clubs paladin was origonally meant to be a undead killer and club has the best effect against undead but there are no really decent maces or clubs for pld the ones that are there are really slow also paladin should be able to get hexa strike. as far as greatsword goes on pld well staff has higher combat power how about good staff weapons for pld i use to use a primate staff and staff fight solo with spirit taker i could last forever there is always the possiblity that staff tanking could come back on pld as long as the staff offers some good attack stats as well as dmg down basically if you ever capped out combat skills on pld prior to level cap raise you would find that sword shield club and staff were the highest and polearm and greatsword 2nd

as far as improveing ablities well sheild bash needs to be every 30 second and have more hit power and should have several types of bashes that can inflict anything from stun (shield bash) to paralize (shield crash) to sleep (shield head crush) or silence ( shield throat jab)

extra job ablities well someone sugested goad or something i like that paladin has always needed a voke that dont take mp but other then vokes paladin needs job abities that improve attack how about one that when used the next attacks blocked by shield are absorbed and turned into tp mp or hp or damage is built up and returned in the next ws pld does.

as far as always active traits well if pld aint gonna hit hard then hit often give pld triple attack and counterbash ability with shield
those are my suggestions other then more types of spells for pld

it's not a paladin problem.. it's a ffxi problem.

maybe if they gimped counter and retaliation hard, people would have less incentive to use dd's as tanks.. but even then.. why not use a ninja?

so now you either need mobs that spam aoe, or swing crazy fast to tear down shadows. if it spams aoe then why bother with a tank. your pt is still getting wrecked.

and if it swings crazy fast, that's just more opportunities for counter or retaliation to proc, so you better have gimped those already. you should probably also make sure the mob hits crazy hard so ONLY a pld can survive it. cuz if any job that outdmgs pld can hold hate and survive, that will be the better option.

it's just the way it is, you only need as much defense as you need to survive the fight, but you can never have enough offense. the mob could always die faster.

it's gotten so bad that i don't think pld can be made relevant without revamping the way the game works.. for example... change the way th works so it builds more steadily over time, but then raise or remove the cap on it. this would at least make an argument for drawing a battle out. NOT killing an nm asap. giving the thf as much time as possible to build as much th as possible. but then you also have to change the way loot drops. if a mob can only drop 1 of an item ANYWAY then you only need enough th to make it drop 1.. and again.. if the war, mnk, or nin can just SURVIVE while this is going on, while holding hate... then they are still competing for that spot..

that's just one random example, but the point is... it's not about making pld a tank.. it's about making HAVING a tank at all worthwhile. right now we don't generally need ANY defense centric job, and we'd only be hurting ourselves by using one.

Since Abyssea seems to be Paladin's main problem, I was thinking that adding new Atma designed to help the job DD tank in the zones would assist it greatly.

For example Atma of Monkey Grip: Allows the character to wield a 2 handed weapon with a shield. Along with stats somewhat comparable to high level atma like VV RR and Paladin would have a much better chance of keeping hate.

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Originally Posted by Blaksen

Since Abyssea seems to be Paladin's main problem, I was thinking that adding new Atma designed to help the job DD tank in the zones would assist it greatly.

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PLD was out dated as a tank in almost every event before Abyssea the difference back then a lot of people didn't want to risk it either due to fear or poor support for a nonPLD tank.

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Originally Posted by Blaksen

Since Abyssea seems to be Paladin's main problem, I was thinking that adding new Atma designed to help the job DD tank in the zones would assist it greatly.

For example Atma of Monkey Grip: Allows the character to wield a 2 handed weapon with a shield. Along with stats somewhat comparable to high level atma like VV RR and Paladin would have a much better chance of keeping hate.

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Or instead of an atma, since this is to fix a specific job, make it a job trait of some kind. Give it to PLD at .. say Lvl 60, that a shield can be equipped along with a 2-h weapon, such as a polearm or greatsword. It shouldn't do very much, though it might take a tiny graphical tweak to draw the shield on the back of the hand while using 2-h weapon--maybe changing stances so the shield doesn't block the face of the char. But make a trait this way.

This won't fix the job, but it would be a unique addition for a pld--giving a little more to them...

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Originally Posted by Zagen

PLD was out dated as a tank in almost every event before Abyssea the difference back then a lot of people didn't want to risk it either due to fear or poor support for a nonPLD tank.

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This.

The only thing that prevented PLD from being more widely obsolete pre-Abyssea was people. It was all in the mind. Groups that weren't afraid of change were using DD tanks years ahead of Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

This.

The only thing that prevented PLD from being more widely obsolete pre-Abyssea was people. It was all in the mind. Groups that weren't afraid of change were using DD tanks years ahead of Abyssea.

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I wouldn't say that. I'd say it was that jobs were more well defined in whatever niche role they filled in prior endgame. But they were still capable of crossing the line per se.

Pre-Abyssea when you heard DRK what popped into your head? Zerging. It was what DRK was used for, and that was fine. A good DRK knew how to tank, and tools like Apoc generally help. But that was more the player than the job's specifications.

RDM tanking was rather popular on mobs that Atonement spam wasn't applicable on. And at the end of the day, it took a good RDM to tank. Not one that grew up as a Refresh/Haste bot.

I'm pretty sure there's a video floating around Youtube somewhere of a BLM/NIN tanking Byakko. Any job can be thrown into a tank role, provided the player knows how to tank and has adequate support to do it. PLD was just the default tank because they were easier to gear (homam, MDT, fire resist: done) and easier to play. And it was sufficient, it wasn't detrimental to have a PLD over another job. May not of been 100% optimal but it easily got the job done.


Now with abyssea, damage has spiked so high that it is quite literally the only hate tool that makes sense to use. Thus making the average turtle PLD not just obsolete, but incapable of tanking at all.

Well, the average turtle PLD was always obsolete and incapable of tanking at all. That's a given. DDs may hit hate cap in 15-30 seconds these days, but that does not mean they were unable to easily hit it in 60-90 seconds pre-Abyssea.

You're absolutely right when you say all jobs are/were capable of crossing the line. Heck, in some cases (SAM, MNK, DRK, sometimes NIN), "DD" jobs were better tanks than PLDs were long before Abyssea came out. Really, the only reason a lot of good players were unable to tank regularly on those jobs were misconceptions by their group, especially bad/mediocre White Mages who had a tendency to only focus on curing "Tank" jobs while everyone else could just die and it would be "their own fault" (this makes me rage so hard).

When it really comes down to it, Paladin has never really taken much less damage than any other job with equivalent defensive gear. Most every melee job can cap PDT and MDT in sets if they so choose, it's simply a matter of getting a competent player who actually has those sets. Shield has always been a bit of a crapshoot, and other jobs can most definitely match Pld's Enmity gain and damage reduction in other ways (Seigan, Stuns, Counters, etc).

I suppose what I'm saying is, in an environment with higher end players who were able to deal lots of damage on their DDs and had proper gear sets, Paladin has been obsolete for a very very long time. It just seems a bit more widespread now because, in Abyssea, even full Aurore trash can deal respectable damage with Atmas and Cruor buffs while rocking 3,500 HP, while even full teal Whms have infinite MP.

The problem has become more visible to social/casual players, but most higher-end endgamers have been seeing this for years now.

Here is an idea I had as one way to help out Paladin. Still working out the bugs, but feel free to post your thoughts on it.


Name: Endurance
Type: Job Ability
Recast: 5:00
Duration: 3:00
Target: Self

Description: Negates enmity loss, gradually lowers allies enmity with each successive shield block.

Notes:

- Will only decay party/alliance members enmity on the current target the Paladin is fighting.
- Will negate enmity loss from all forms of damage.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

All these ideas of "higher enmity cap for Paladin", "improve cover", "flash 2", etc are driving me nuts. The problem with Paladin isn't that it needs to be made a better tank per se; it's that it needs to be made more versatile and bring more to a group than being a sponge. Paladin isn't worthless cause it can't provoke more. Paladin isn't useless cause it needs to cover more people. Paladin is useless because a wide array of jobs can sponge now and those jobs also contribute to the party. I'll post my entire list of suggestions and issues I believe plague PLD once I get home. In the meantime, I'd recommend reading my suggestions on page 1 if you haven't.

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First off, paladins are not useless. They provide a powerful blend of high defense and cure power no other job can, and can even play a powerful support role with the right sub job and equipment. If players fail to utilize all of their strengths that isn't the fault of the paladin.

I'm tired of other paladins complaining that so many other jobs can tank. They are MELEE classes, they are MEANT TO TANK. Warriors, monks, even dragoons...ninjas - these jobs are suppose to melee. Melee jobs TANK. The fact they do more damage than paladins is the way it should be. Paladins have greater defense so they should have lesser offense than some of the other tanks. So what if other tanks can kill faster. Too many people are making a big fuss out of nothing. It would be utterly stupid if paladins were the only viable tanks in the game and people had to recruit one else they could not kill anything.

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Originally Posted by Dale

First off, paladins are not useless. They provide a powerful blend of high defense and cure power no other job can, and can even play a powerful support role with the right sub job and equipment. If players fail to utilize all of their strengths that isn't the fault of the paladin.

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None of this is needed in a tank outside of Voidwatch currently.

Edit: BTW a BLU provides higher DEF and Cure power than PLD. As well as much more damage.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

None of this is needed in a tank outside of Voidwatch currently.

Edit: BTW a BLU provides higher DEF and Cure power than PLD. As well as much more damage.

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I disagree blue mage provides a higher DEf than paladin. They may have better heals, but when you take into account the paladin's shield, i think they significantly trump Blue Mage on physical defense.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I disagree blue mage provides a higher DEf than paladin. They may have better heals, but when you take into account the paladin's shield, i think they significantly trump Blue Mage on physical defense.

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BLU has a higher Defense stat, which everyone knows is useless as hell and that was his point. PLD's "Defense" is utter crap. PLD's Shield? Less crappy crap, but still crap.

Inb4: "It's not crappy just because 5-10+ jobs can do it better, because I can do it at a standard which I believe to be acceptable and contentious"

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

BLU has a higher Defense stat, which everyone knows is useless as hell and that was his point. PLD's "Defense" is utter crap. PLD's Shield? Less crappy crap, but still crap.

Inb4: "It's not crappy just because 5-10+ jobs can do it better, because I can do it at a standard which I believe to be acceptable and contentious"

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lol...well it doesn't surprise me you are now saying defense sucks as well. Everything (but you i'm sure) sucks according to you :)

It doesn't matter that Blue has a higher defense stat - though that's debatable as a pld can sub blue and use cocoon as well. When you take into account the Paladin's ability to frequently block damage with his shield his physical defense trumps that of a blue mage. I never limited my comments to just the pure defense stat and nothing else. There is a lot more to defense than just the raw stat and all sorts of factors that contribute to how well a character can withstand damage.

That being said I disagree with you that defense is usless as hell. So if that was his point i disagree with him on that as well. I find a high defense to make a huge difference, and even on occasion sub blue to my red mage for the added survival. So in no way is it "useless as hell". Just another example of your silly need to call everything sucky and useless.

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Originally Posted by Dale

lol...well it doesn't surprise me you are now saying defense sucks as well. Everything (but you i'm sure) sucks according to you :)

It doesn't matter that Blue has a higher defense stat - though that's debatable as a pld can sub blue and use cocoon as well. When you take into account the Paladin's ability to frequently block damage with his shield his physical defense trumps that of a blue mage. I never limited my comments to just the pure defense stat and nothing else. There is a lot more to defense than just the raw stat and all sorts of factors that contribute to how well a character can withstand damage.

That being said I disagree with you that defense is usless as hell. So if that was his point i disagree with him on that as well. I find a high defense to make a huge difference, and even on occasion sub blue to my red mage for the added survival. So in no way is it "useless as hell". Just another example of your silly need to call everything sucky and useless.

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MNKs who roll Counterstance full time with a whooping 60-100ish DEF would like to have a word with you...

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Originally Posted by Zagen

MNKs who roll Counterstance full time with a whooping 60-100ish DEF would like to have a word with you...

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Hm...ok so i'm to take from this comment that because monks have counterstance that somehow means defense sucks?

I"m finding your posts and reasons as to why everything sucks more and more difficult to follow I have to admit.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Hm...ok so i'm to take from this comment that because monks have counterstance that somehow means defense sucks?

I"m finding your posts and reasons as to why everything sucks more and more difficult to follow I have to admit.

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Counterstance drops a MNK's DEF to VIT/2 +1. In other words they are turning they're DEF into crap compared to PLD's DEF. That said the increase to Counter rate far out weighs the drastic loss of DEF because again DEF is useless when it comes to mitigating damage.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Counterstance drops a MNK's DEF to VIT/2 +1. In other words they are turning they're DEF into crap compared to PLD's DEF. That said the increase to Counter rate far out weighs the drastic loss of DEF because again DEF is useless when it comes to mitigating damage.

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Sorry but i'm still lost. How does a monk using counterstance mean defense is useless when it comes to mitigating damage? We are not all monks. We don't all have counterstance. This may be your worst argument yet. This one is even worst than your Red Mage nukes suck cause Black Mage nukes are better one.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Sorry but i'm still lost. How does a monk using counterstance mean defense is useless when it comes to mitigating damage? We are not all monks. We don't all have counterstance. This may be your worst argument yet. This one is even worst than your Red Mage nukes suck cause Black Mage nukes are better one.

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Counterstance adds 40% Counter rate onto a MNK's 10% base. In other words an additional 40% of all melee hits from an enemy will do 0 damage. If DEF was valuable MNKs wouldn't be so willing to give it up for 40% of hits doing 0 damage.

That doesn't even account for the extra damage dealt from those counters.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Counterstance adds 40% Counter rate onto a MNK's 10% base. In other words an additional 40% of all melee hits from an enemy will do 0 damage. If DEF was valuable MNKs wouldn't be so willing to give it up for 40% of hits doing 0 damage.

That doesn't even account for the extra damage dealt from those counters.

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Ok so let me get this straight. You are saying that because monks have an ability that let's them counter damage 40% of the time in exchange for a penality to their defense that means defense as a whole sucks and is useless?

I stand by my earlier comment...and this is the worst argument of why something sucks you have yet to produce.

Maybe if we were all monks and had the option of turning on a move that counters 40% of attacks directed at us this argument may have some merit...

Defense may not be good for monks (I woudn't know, i don't play one), but from a Paladin or Red Mage perspective, I assure you it helps a lot and isn't useless.

He's saying Defense sucks because, no matter how high your defense gets, NMs of any worth are still going to be capping or near capping cRatio on you. And, once cRatio is capped, no additional damage is taken by having lower defense.

Nutshell: It doesn't matter if your Defense is 700 or 7, if the monster is capping cRatio then you'll take the exact same amount of damage. QED: Defense is utterly worthless unless you're actually making a significant dent in cRatio, which is quite literally impossible on the vast majority of harder NMs and not worth doing on weaker NMs that would die in a minute or two in DD gear.

Edit: Oh yeah. Counterstance reduces more damage than any non-Ochain shield ever will. Shield is an absolutely horrible method of mitigating damage and requires an Ochain to be at all useful.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

He's saying Defense sucks because, no matter how high your defense gets, NMs of any worth are still going to be capping or near capping cRatio on you. And, once cRatio is capped, no additional damage is taken by having lower defense.

Nutshell: It doesn't matter if your Defense is 700 or 7, if the monster is capping cRatio then you'll take the exact same amount of damage. QED: Defense is utterly worthless unless you're actually making a significant dent in cRatio, which is quite literally impossible on the vast majority of harder NMs and not worth doing on weaker NMs that would die in a minute or two in DD gear.

Edit: Oh yeah. Counterstance reduces more damage than any non-Ochain shield ever will. Shield is an absolutely horrible method of mitigating damage and requires an Ochain to be at all useful.

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Sorry but I find my non-ochain shield very useful, and it saves my ass all the time. As does my defense.

The logic that defense sucks because monks have counter stance and some very difficult NMs will hit you hard no matter what is retarded. I fight NMs everyday i find very worth doing and my defense and shield block deffinitely help. If i were to change into DD gear I would be the one dying in a minute or two...not the NM

Your argument is also reliant on cherry picking certain fights you deem "worthy" as the basis for your entire post. We should just end this here and agree to disagree.

You think defense and all non-ochain shields suck. I don't.

Talking with you is like talking with someone who says submarines suck in war cause you happen to be engaged in a land war currently. It's impossible to argue with and makes little sense. Yes. In some situations defense is not that useful. But that doens't mean it just sucks and is useless. This game doens't revolve around just the fights you enjoy doing or think are worthy to do.

When did I say "Only certain super hard NMs cap cRatio on you"?

There are two kinds of NMs. NMs where cRatio is capped, and NMs that are dead in 60 seconds anyways.

The vast majority of NMs will cap cRatio on you. Especially outside Abyssea. Any perceived increase in survivability from defensive gear is purely placebo =/

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

When did I say "Only certain super hard NMs cap cRatio on you"?

There are two kinds of NMs. NMs where cRatio is capped, and NMs that are dead in 60 seconds anyways.

The vast majority of NMs will cap cRatio on you. Especially outside Abyssea. Any perceived increase in survivability from defensive gear is purely placebo =/

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Ok time to get specific. Which monsters are you talking about that defense doens't help on? Let's hear this "vast majority" of monsters that defense is usless against?

Kirin, Shijin, all outside Sea Jailers, Abyssea +2 NMs in Scars/Heroes zones, all Body seal NMs in Heroes zones, AV, PW, VNMs T3 and above inside/outside Abyssea, ZNMs T3 or above, ToAU HNM, RotZ HQ HNM, KS99 HNM, all of Voidwatch, Fomor NMs in the past, in general any NM that is or was worth a crap and/or above level 95 aside from a few notable exceptions scattered here and there with extremely low attack values.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Le...ction_and_pDIF

inb4 anecdotes about taking a bajillion less damage when stacking kaiser gear and getting instantly killed when putting on DD gear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Kirin, Shijin, all outside Sea Jailers, Abyssea +2 NMs in Scars/Heroes zones, all Body seal NMs in Heroes zones, AV, PW, VNMs T3 and above inside/outside Abyssea, ZNMs T3 or above, ToAU HNM, RotZ HQ HNM, KS99 HNM, all of Voidwatch, Fomor NMs in the past, in general any NM that is or was worth a crap and/or above level 95 aside from a few notable exceptions scattered here and there with extremely low attack values.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Le...ction_and_pDIF

inb4 anecdotes about taking a bajillion less damage when stacking kaiser gear and getting instantly killed when putting on DD gear.

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Ok well I will put this argument to the test. I will go fight a Body Seal NM in Abyssea tonight and comapre how much I get hit for with defense and without it :) Will be in touch and we'll see if your argument is crap or not. I strongly suspect that it is, but I'll wait till I do the test myself before I judge.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Ok well I will put this argument to the test. I will go fight a Body Seal NM in Abyssea tonight and comapre how much I get hit for with defense and without it :) Will be in touch and we'll see if your argument is crap or not. I strongly suspect that it is, but I'll wait till I do the test myself before I judge.

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I hope you know how to properly test things.... As in a sample size of 100 is a nice start, making sure all variables are accounted for as in -PDT on either job you use, DEF levels for each job are fixed, etc. There are a lot of variables to account for when testing and somehow I doubt you will do this.

Edit: After that test you should see how a given fight with say a MNK + WHM and a PLD + WHM takes from start to finish, how much damage is taken with each job. You'll find what everyone else has when you do this, that is that because of the kill speed and how broken defensive mechanics are currently the MNK takes less damage.