[Soap Box] {Lock On} & general charity shouts

Wow i didnt know there were so many players that havent seen people do this. Next thing you be telling me is you havent seen them climb up walls or through walls >.>

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Originally Posted by katz

Wow i didnt know there were so many players that havent seen people do this. Next thing you be telling me is you havent seen them climb up walls or through walls >.>

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Again - Have you ever even used Windower before? Do you have even the foggiest idea what in the hell you're actually talking about?

You can't target monsters at their spawn location before they spawn. Period. Even the most advanced Windower plugins only allow you to view corpses, and even that is pretty useless.

As for monsters loading faster on PC, that's a load of crock. The difference is so negligible that any normal human being wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Walking up or through walls? Another windower feature that you have just made up. That is not part of windower. That is/was part of bot packages like FFXIApp or that Wizbot one.

I suggest in the future you research the product you are arguing against before posting. Maybe it'll help you not look like a 'tard.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

SE has said there is nothing with it before and will not ban you for it. So, if its OK by them, its ok to do.

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Assuming you're talking about R/Ex, that's not true. While you won't get banned for it, SE did go out of their way to change certain timed NM drops from Rare to R/Ex because of RMT. RMT then decided to sell the R/Ex item to those camping the R/Ex versions. This way they also tried to(and succeeded) drive up the prices of the non-Ex versions that they had stock piled. It wasn't until enough BCNMers spammed said BCNMs that the market normalized.

The boon which the players thought SE made was short lived. Sure it maybe not be something said verbally but if you can't see the connection then I don't know how to discuss with you. If SE were to make a statement on such a lowly issue it'd probably something along the lines of it being frowned upon but no prosecuted. For those with a lack of morales and ethics, I'm sure that alone would be enough justification.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Ethics has nothing to do with this. There is nothing inherently right or wrong about selling goods and services to other players.

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Wrong.

There is everything inherently wrong when creating a false market. You're falsifying the market by artificially throttling the supply, a supply that is not suppose to be yours. Also, please stop ignoring the distinction between R and R/Ex gear. Scroll != R/Ex

Edjamacation prz

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

When people win a claim, they win the right to anything the monster drops, whether it's the right to keep the items or sell them is up to them. If they lose that claim, you have the chance to claim that right from them.

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This is really stretching reality to suit your own view point. If what you said is true and SE intended for R/Ex gear to be sold then why make it R/Ex in the first place when it simply could be Rare. Obviously R/Ex was never intended to have an economic value. If we can not agree on that then I have nothing further to discuss with you.

Sell it all you want because you can, it doesn't make it right.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

just outclaim them. You have as good a chance as they do, assuming equal levels of speed, skill, and attention.

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To this day, people still cheat and bot. Ignoring this proves one's hidden agenda. Denying this just proves one's ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Puck

I've seen a ton of people on this forum throw around the term "strawman" but none of them have used it correctly.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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That's for the link, it put a smile on my face. However you couldn't be more wrong, which is as funny as a grammar nazi misspelling words when correcting someone's grammar.

Firstly, in the context I used the word in it'd be very hard to wrongfully use even if I didn't know the meaning. Secondly, I know exactly what it means. Heck, even if I didn't I could just google it, I mean srsy? So... 2/10... since you got a reply out of me. ;)

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Originally Posted by Exxodus

Hmm, the OP has brought up a topic that sounds very similar to a /shout arguement that took place in Port Jeuno earlier today, on Sylph. The group leader was shouting to set up a run for Ironclad Severer. The shout stated that the Wieldance Jewel was locked, and that the BLM, PUP, and SMN items, and Ardor Jewel were FL.

Someone started attacking the leader for "locking everything" and forcing people to do work for him for no reward. The attacker was very persistent that in order to make the run fair, that the leader should not be locking "all of the wieldance" jewels.

If this is what the OP is referencing, then I don't see this being a problem.

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I stopped reading here. No, it wasn't in regards to it. In fact I didn't even see that shout fight.

If you understood my post better you'd know that I'm for the idea of mutually beneficial shouts like that.(which is what it seemed like from what you wrote) There's nothing wrong with taking 4 people to kill a mob that drops 4 items(or in your case 5), each person locked onto a specific item.

But thank you for proving my point that this kind of drama is unavoidable on Sylph explaining why I posted in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

As for monsters loading faster on PC, that's a load of crock. The difference is so negligible that any normal human being wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

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I'm not picking on you, I swear!

Many people believe otherwise, however they believe in favor of PS2. (lolwut, yeah man srsly) There's logic in this as the game was designed on the PS2 and ported over to PC/Xbox. I'm not sure where the xbox fairs but I tell you this much, not everyone loads equally.

My wife's character will ALWAYS see things before me despite the fact that my character existed about a year before her's and that I have at least the same, if not better, connection via our router and have always had the better PC since I use it more. The only thing i can think of is my name being further in the alphabet than hers but I'd seriously hope SE isn't that bad to have done that.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Walking up or through walls? Another windower feature that you have just made up. That is not part of windower. That is/was part of bot packages like FFXIApp or that Wizbot one.

I suggest in the future you research the product you are arguing against before posting. Maybe it'll help you not look like a 'tard.

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Before you go slandering anyone about tard you should check the facts out, I wasnt the only person in the group who saw the said individual climbing up the wall to get to an nm pop that you normally have to conflux to. Just because you are naive enough to think people dont cheat in the game doesnt mean it doesnt go on. Its sad that I hear people say "Im using the "special" JP pop system to out pop everyone" and you see the said person out pop the groups time after time. You think they just get lucky then you are extremely naive.
And yes, its probably not basic windower but when people say I got to load windower to do it then windower is to blame as much as any of the bot programs. PS and Xbox dont get windower, therefore this is also as far as Im concerned another advantage over other players.

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Originally Posted by Toggles

That's for the link, it put a smile on my face. However you couldn't be more wrong, which is as funny as a grammar nazi misspelling words when correcting someone's grammar.

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You implored people not to "strawman;" explain what you think that means. Because you're using a buzzword people like to throw around on here a lot, and none of you really know what it means or how to use it.

Whoa... everyone needs to get off their high horses and chill...

First of all, Windower is proven to be a harmless tool, whether or not you are on PC, people who use it don't affect anyone else around them. The ability to actually hack or alter the gameplay mechanics are separate programs which people actually pay for and are definitely illegal. No one is denying that people use them, but that's beside the fact that it's completely off topic.

Second: I don't know about your server, but on Rag (and Caitsith) I never saw or knew anyone to camp timed NMs solely to exploit and profit from rare/ex drops. Typically when people sell such items, they already have buyers lined up, therefore those who are selling the items are actually accepting money for their time and effort in assisting players who would not be able to acquire such gear on their own. Doing this is 100% NOT morally or financially incorrect in any way.

There are those who like to shout in Port all day like in the OP's examples who offer no reward for peoples' assistance, those are the groups you typically want to avoid because the only help they get really know how to derp it up. However, it does provide good entertainment when you're bored.

Also, some fool was trying to sell leech spots in Abys for a mil a head earlier, granted he promised 30-90 in a sitting, I can find my way into those parties for free almost effortlessly. It's so sad. Fortunately money is almost worthless these days so no one is really hurting from any of these 'exploitations.'

Lol at the people who still don't understand what windower is and does in 2011.

Lord, sometimes I wonder how you have the mental capicity to use a computer. Research the topic, because windower does not do what you think it does. It's not some sorcerous heathen tool that lets you manipulate space-time before the unwashed masses.

Lol all you want about windower. It still gives you an advantage over other users who cant use it. Id love to write the macros you guys can but sadly xbox dont allow it. You Can use windower to re write dat files to accept 3rd party software. The fact that you dont know this is surprising how little you exploit your windower. Remind me again if its harmless how come you need to use it over someone who doesnt use it. You might think you arent getting any advantages but then why are you using it. Id ban all windows from the game on the pc if I could. Windower has not been proven to not give you any advantage. The day you put it on xbox and its the same is the day you can prove it.

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Originally Posted by katz

Lol all you want about windower. It still gives you an advantage over other users who cant use it. Id love to write the macros you guys can but sadly xbox dont allow it. You Can use windower to re write dat files to accept 3rd party software. The fact that you dont know this is surprising how little you exploit your windower. Remind me again if its harmless how come you need to use it over someone who doesnt use it. You might think you arent getting any advantages but then why are you using it. Id ban all windows from the game on the pc if I could. Windower has not been proven to not give you any advantage. The day you put it on xbox and its the same is the day you can prove it.

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Yes.
8675309

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Originally Posted by Puck

You implored people not to "strawman;" explain what you think that means. Because you're using a buzzword people like to throw around on here a lot, and none of you really know what it means or how to use it.

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*sigh* If you wanted to know how to use it you could just google it. ;)

Anyway, when I asked people not to strawman me I was asking them to refrain from taking my words and turning them into something I didn't say for the sake of 'proving me wrong' all the while I never said w/e twisted point they're now arguing.

My disclaimer addressed obvious strawman arguments that I saw coming.

An example would be the post by Exxodus. Despite my disclaimer, he still was confused about my stance. However confused != strawman. I don't feel like he strawman'd my OP but it came very close. "If this is what the OP is referencing" was the saving grace. As you can see in my response to his post, I am not against what he referenced. Had he implied I was[against] and then went on to show me how I was wrong under said skewed circumstances...

Another borderline strawman post is when Greatguardian brought up Rare nonEx scrolls that BLMs want to lot. The only difference is he didn't 'accuse' me of having that stance, instead he likened it to what I was saying. I'm sure that's probably a fuzzy line that people often can't tell the difference between... maybe what you're referring to on your little crusade here.

Again, you could have just googled it instead of asking me to explain it for you, it's a pretty simple concept to grasp. ;)

take what someone said/their position
change it slightly(to be obviously wrong) to suit your needs
easily 'prove them wrong' because of your changes
???
profit


Now happily admit you're a 'grammar nazi misspelling word while scolding someone for improper spelling' and we can be on our ways. ;)

Isnt English a wonderful language. Spoken in so many countries and yet somehow the same words are used for different meanings. A strawman poll is used as a vote amongst peers.

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Originally Posted by Toggles

*sigh* If you wanted to know how to use it you could just google it. ;)

Anyway, when I asked people not to strawman me I was asking them to refrain from taking my words and turning them into something I didn't say for the sake of 'proving me wrong' all the while I never said w/e twisted point they're now arguing.

My disclaimer addressed obvious strawman arguments that I saw coming.

An example would be the post by Exxodus. Despite my disclaimer, he still was confused about my stance. However confused != strawman. I don't feel like he strawman'd my OP but it came very close. "If this is what the OP is referencing" was the saving grace. As you can see in my response to his post, I am not against what he referenced. Had he implied I was[against] and then went on to show me how I was wrong under said skewed circumstances...

Another borderline strawman post is when Greatguardian brought up Rare nonEx scrolls that BLMs want to lot. The only difference is he didn't 'accuse' me of having that stance, instead he likened it to what I was saying. I'm sure that's probably a fuzzy line that people often can't tell the difference between... maybe what you're referring to on your little crusade here.

Again, you could have just googled it instead of asking me to explain it for you, it's a pretty simple concept to grasp. ;)

take what someone said/their position
change it slightly(to be obviously wrong) to suit your needs
easily 'prove them wrong' because of your changes
???
profit


Now happily admit you're a 'grammar nazi misspelling word while scolding someone for improper spelling' and we can be on our ways. ;)

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Maybe you should've taken your own advice and Googled it before you proved that you don't know what it means.

straw man
n.
1. A person who is set up as a cover or front for a questionable enterprise.
2. An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated.
3. A bundle of straw made into the likeness of a man and often used as a scarecrow.

You didn't provide a single example of someone employing a strawman argument. Instead you cobbled together your own idea of what you think it means and gave examples that in no way exemplified the use of a strawman.

Now happily admit that you threw around a buzzword with no idea what it actually meant like so many other "master debaters" on this board.

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Originally Posted by katz

Before you go slandering anyone about tard you should check the facts out, I wasnt the only person in the group who saw the said individual climbing up the wall to get to an nm pop that you normally have to conflux to. Just because you are naive enough to think people dont cheat in the game doesnt mean it doesnt go on.

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"My group is retarded enough to think that this tool is a product of the windower team".

How about you take a mintue to re-read my post:

THIS IS NOT A WINDOWER PLUGIN.

WHAT YOU ALL WITNESSED WAS A PLAYER USING A DIFFERENT 3RD PARTY APPLICATION LIKE FFXIAPP OR WIZBOT.

You quoted me then tried to argue against me but didn't even apparantly read my post. My issue with your posts is that you accuse windower.net of offering plugins or services that are just not offered. In all cases what you saw was a player using a botting program like FFXIAPP or Wizbot. However, you slander Windower.net by suggesting this crap is available through them. It is not. You have done no research. You are starting trouble for no reason other than either 1) ignorance or 2) trolling. Sit down, shut up.

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Originally Posted by katz

Lol all you want about windower. It still gives you an advantage over other users who cant use it. Id love to write the macros you guys can but sadly xbox dont allow it. You Can use windower to re write dat files to accept 3rd party software. The fact that you dont know this is surprising how little you exploit your windower. Remind me again if its harmless how come you need to use it over someone who doesnt use it. You might think you arent getting any advantages but then why are you using it. Id ban all windows from the game on the pc if I could. Windower has not been proven to not give you any advantage. The day you put it on xbox and its the same is the day you can prove it.

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1) Windower cannot "rewrite dat files"
2) Datmodding does not give an advantage to the player (unless you count clearing the HORRIBAD LAG FROM CONFLUXES an advantage)
3) Windower Team (Nitsuj, Aikar, Azaril, etc) != w!zbot team != random billy bot maker. Get your facts straight. Windower team is very much against botting, which, if you would look 6 inches past your nose and check out the forums and approved/unapproved mods you would see.

Gawd.

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Originally Posted by katz

Isnt English a wonderful language. Spoken in so many countries and yet somehow the same words are used for different meanings. A strawman poll is used as a vote amongst peers.

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Whatever you say Kyi :3

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Originally Posted by katz

Isnt English a wonderful language. Spoken in so many countries and yet somehow the same words are used for different meanings. A strawman poll is used as a vote amongst peers.

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No no, that's a straw poll, not strawman.

A strawman argument is picking out one specific part of a statement and attacking it, rather than addressing the issues raised.

And @ OP, I agree that locking everything just because you start the group is BS and idiotic. My remedy though is to just ignore the groups. I admit I have had people who joined just to help, but I've never locked more than one item per character in the group. I also don't do FL on items unless no one has locked it, I don't like groups where people are fighting for drops so everyone gets to lock an item before we head out. Seems like common sense to me that everyone gets something for their work.

Still off.

Straw manning is taking an opponent's argument, ignoring it completely, and then creating an argument that looks similar to theirs on the outside and destroying it without actually addressing the original point.

Example:

-"Dogs are smelly"
-"Dogs? Cats clean themselves all the time! How can you call Cats smelly when they're practically always licking themselves? You're an idiot!"
-"What the crap does that have to do with dogs?"

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Originally Posted by Toggles

I don't know if I should feel better or worst that it's not just my server. ;)

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It's not just your server. I see downs syndrome kids shouting for stuff all the time on Odin. I think it's fun to join these groups, then ditch after they get there, also to call them foolish in shout, or shout and say I'm doing the same thing they are, but not being dumb about it.

The new annoyance is the people who join shouts for NMs that have decently expensive pop items, and then don't buy pops, but want equal lotting rights on stuff. That just infuriates me.

</3 to the huge derails.

A big thanks to Anethia, Harukusan and wish12oz(love the sig) for addressing the topic in which I was interested. Now I know that Lakshmi, Ragnarok, Caitsith and Odin have the same junk, at least to some degree.

Greatguardian, we obviously don't agree on some issues, nothing personal. Sorry for the "Edjamacation" cheap shot, I was irked by the strawman accusation and it slipped out.

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Originally Posted by Puck

Maybe you should've taken your own advice and Googled it before you proved that you don't know what it means.

straw man
n.
1. A person who is set up as a cover or front for a questionable enterprise.
2. An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated.
3. A bundle of straw made into the likeness of a man and often used as a scarecrow.

You didn't provide a single example of someone employing a strawman argument. Instead you cobbled together your own idea of what you think it means and gave examples that in no way exemplified the use of a strawman.

Now happily admit that you threw around a buzzword with no idea what it actually meant like so many other "master debaters" on this board.

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Darn my overwhelming urge to insult you. I'll try to keep this as civil as possible.

What I said falls under point 2 of your definition, it's just a condensed explanation of what I said. I'll explain for you.

"2. An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated."

An argument or opponent = take what someone said/their position
set up so as to be = change it slightly(to be obviously wrong) to suit your needs
easily refuted or defeated. = easily 'prove them wrong' because of your changes
"??? profit" = for the lols because forum discussions get too heated and could use some lols

What Kiroh said is a way(i.e. taking words out of context) you can strawman but is not an all inclusive definition. Greatguardian's definition was dead on. I'll reiterate, my original usage of the word was just fine and so was my post explaining it.

I've been using the term 'straw man' before it became a buzz word and I'm flattered that you'd liken me to a 'master-debater'. Really, I'm just some schmuck with strong opinions.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...93l193l0.1l1l0

All from the first page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

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A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position

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http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

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Description of Straw Man
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

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http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

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As the "straw man" metaphor suggests, the counterfeit position attacked in a Straw Man argument is typically weaker than the opponent's actual position, just as a straw man is easier to defeat than a flesh-and-blood one. Of course, this is no accident, but is part of what makes the fallacy tempting to commit, especially to a desperate debater who is losing an argument.

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http://www.drury.edu/ess/Logic/Informal/Strawman.html

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Straw Man occurs when

an opponent takes the original argument of his/her adversary

and then offers a close imitation, or straw man, version of the original argument;

"knocks down" the straw man version of the argument (because the straw man, as its name implies, is a much easier target to hit, undermine, etc.)

-- and thereby gives the appearance of having successfully countered/overcome/answered the original argument.

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Now happily admit you're guilty of your own accusations and we can be on our ways. ;)

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Originally Posted by katz

The trouble is the playing fields arent level out there. We all know people who use windower to see mobs "appear" long time before anyone else can see them. The amount of server lags also disadvantages the non pc users.

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Wow so much wrong here.

Windower doesn't allow anyone to see anything before anyone else. All Windower does is make the game go into a windowed mode. To my knowledge there are no plugins that allow for this. If someone is seeing monsters then they are using a bot of some sort.

Also, PC have much more lag than PS2. PS2 players obtain information way before PC. My old LS leader was a PS2 leader and he could outclaim lots of people because of this. If you don't believe me, go to an airship on a PC and a PS2; for the PS2 version the airship will stop and you can board, but for the PC version, you can board the airship before the airship has fully stopped.

Also Japanese receive information faster than North Americans. (Or at least they used to, I don't know if this is accurate anymore.)

To the OP, if there's a scam shout, don't join it. If people are idiotic enough to join it then they will hopefully learn their lesson when it's over.

I have to say I disagree with GreatGuardian about the Black Mage scrolls only because the item doesn't evenly distribute money to everyone who worked for it. First off not everyone in the alliance pulls their weight equally (some don't even pull their weight at all) and secondly the scroll can only benefit one person. While I agree that 500k would be nice to have and that they are ripping us off of a profit, the scroll isn't a guaranteed profit until the scroll appears in my inventory. Nothing gained, nothing lost. I'd personally rather see someone benefit from it because I know the struggle of collecting gil for scrolls and armor, but like I said, I can understand how it could be considered a scam.

I only get angry when people claim that they can "use" something only to turn around and sell it on the auction house.

Edit: Wanted to add a bit more.

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Originally Posted by Toggles

Wrong.

There is everything inherently wrong when creating a false market. You're falsifying the market by artificially throttling the supply, a supply that is not suppose to be yours. Also, please stop ignoring the distinction between R and R/Ex gear. Scroll != R/Ex

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Um, do you know how mercenary groups actually work? I have never seen a mercenary group randomly pick a monster, go out, outclaim other people, and then laugh at them as they ask for money or to let the item drop. While this may happen it's not the norm.

How mercenary groups normally work is that they decide they want to kill a monster for x item, but nobody in the group wants y item, so they shout or /tell around asking who would like to buy the y item from them. Whoever buys it doesn't have to do any work, just has to provide the appropriate amount of gil.

My linkshell sells tons of +2 items because we're there for the emp. item, not the gems. The gems are sold to people who could use them but don't have the manpower to kill the NMs. They walk away with their new +2 armor and we walk away with lots of gil. There's absolutely nothing wrong, disgusting, or immoral about our transaction.

Whether the item is normal, rare, ex, or rare/ex doesn't matter. An item is an item. Some people have lots of friends, a good linkshell, or a decent way to rally up manpower. Some people don't. For those that don't there is gil to help them get whatever it is they need.

In before "rare/ex means you need to work for it!!!!"

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Originally Posted by Toggles

This is really stretching reality to suit your own view point. If what you said is true and SE intended for R/Ex gear to be sold then why make it R/Ex in the first place when it simply could be Rare. Obviously R/Ex was never intended to have an economic value. If we can not agree on that then I have nothing further to discuss with you.

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They never said we couldn't sell rare/ex. If that was the case then we would be seeing more Voidwatcher like items where you have to participate to get a reward at the end, and nobody can share their rewards with each other via a treasure pool.

It's rare/ex so you cannot trade, bazaar, auction house, or send it through the delivery box (minus mules). That doesn't mean you cannot trade something else for lottings rights to this item, such as your time (by joining a linkshell or killing a different monster in exchange), points (a linkshell), or gil.

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Originally Posted by Toggles

Sell it all you want because you can, it doesn't make it right.

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Doesn't make it wrong either.

I was always thankful of mercenary linkshells because I never wanted to join a linkshell and deal with the rules of attendance and lotting rights. I could farm money on my own time, play whenever I wanted without being a slave to a group of people, and in the end walk away with items I wanted. Same with people willing to buy things my group doesn't want; at least the items are going to someone who can use them rather than rotting.

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Originally Posted by Toggles

To this day, people still cheat and bot. Ignoring this proves one's hidden agenda. Denying this just proves one's ignorance.

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Some do, some don't. It is just a video game after all, does it matter if someone cheated when you log out of the game and attend to real life responsibilities?

I personally don't see any pleasure in cheating because it is just a game. If I'm going to put in that much energy I'd rather go find something else to do.

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Originally Posted by Toggles

There's nothing wrong with taking 4 people to kill a mob that drops 4 items(or in your case 5), each person locked onto a specific item.

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I'm honestly surprised people are so offended by having other people lotting on the same item as you. Back in the day monsters we would farm would have very very poor drop rates, and everyone was after the same thing. Now that monsters drop up to 4 different kinds of seals, people feel entitled to one of them. I have no qualms with everyone locking in a job/item, but sometimes people have to share to get the necessary job or help in.

I really dont get the big deal over this. People are free to shout and do what they. If people want to join, they are free to do so. If they just want one seal and dont care about the other 3, they prob could care less if one person is getting the other 3.

Would I join? Most likely not. Should I start a fight with them and mess with them and call them stupid for doing it? Not really. Everyone has freedom of choice.

Wow this entire thread is like a gigantic waterfall of misinformation.

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Originally Posted by Toggles

Darn my overwhelming urge to insult you. I'll try to keep this as civil as possible.

What I said falls under point 2 of your definition, it's just a condensed explanation of what I said. I'll explain for you.

"2. An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated."

An argument or opponent = take what someone said/their position
set up so as to be = change it slightly(to be obviously wrong) to suit your needs
easily refuted or defeated. = easily 'prove them wrong' because of your changes
"??? profit" = for the lols because forum discussions get too heated and could use some lols

What Kiroh said is a way(i.e. taking words out of context) you can strawman but is not an all inclusive definition. Greatguardian's definition was dead on. I'll reiterate, my original usage of the word was just fine and so was my post explaining it.

I've been using the term 'straw man' before it became a buzz word and I'm flattered that you'd liken me to a 'master-debater'. Really, I'm just some schmuck with strong opinions.[/B]

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Yet you're still stretching the term to cover things that clearly are not strawman arguments. Comparisons, analogies, and the use of relevant examples are not "strawmanning" (to use your verb form). "Taking words out of context" is not the use of a strawman, either. These are common points that occur in any discussion that lately people are throwing the term "strawman" at to dismiss comments that refute their standpoint, much like throwing the term "trolling" at a comment (which you've already done).

There's not really anything to "strawman" about your original post to begin with. It's just a rant. It took the conversation shifting to a discussion about whether or not it's "ethical" for people to sell the rights to Ra/Ex items before an actual argument with some sort of point/counterpoint emerged. Even then it hasn't occurred in regards to your rant.

Actually the closest thing to the use of a straw man in this thread isn't even related to your post. It's Katz trying to bring up Windower in response to Greatguardian's post about claiming. He did so, however, due to extreme ignorance of what Windower actually can and can't do, but went there anyway thinking it was easier to attack rather than actually addressing Greatguardian's points about the rights to claims.

I admit I have never looked into a 3rd party software called windower. I was refering to the comments other people said to me when I saw incidents. As to windower that you guys are all getting on your high horses about, it is still giving you advantages that are not available to xbox and ps2 users. I know this for a fact, my pc version sees more than my xbox version, like 10 secs more. Both are logged in the game at the same time, I see one char drops 10secs before I see the other char drops. So I can see with my own eyes that pcs have advantages over xbox users. For people who say there isnt any difference, I would suggest you try using alternative systems and see it for yourself. As far as Im concerned windower is a 3rd party software that is not supplied by SE and is therefore against existing SE policies no matter what it does.

What you're describing is actually an artifact of the disengaging process, I think. From what I've seen, character that kills the monster always seems to see the drops in the log later. It's not related to PS2 or PC. I've sat two PCs next to each other and my WHM consistently sees drops first.

Hmm but what about if you didnt kill the mob on either char and you still see the difference?

I don't know, because I was duoing. I know that the treasure box icon showed up above the character names at the same time on both PCs. I think it's like how the opener of a BC treasure box always sees the loot in the chat log last.

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Originally Posted by Puck

Yet you're still stretching the term to cover things that clearly are not strawman arguments. Comparisons, analogies, and the use of relevant examples are not "strawmanning" (to use your verb form). "Taking words out of context" is not the use of a strawman, either. These are common points that occur in any discussion that lately people are throwing the term "strawman" at to dismiss comments that refute their standpoint, much like throwing the term "trolling" at a comment (which you've already done).

There's not really anything to "strawman" about your original post to begin with. It's just a rant. It took the conversation shifting to a discussion about whether or not it's "ethical" for people to sell the rights to Ra/Ex items before an actual argument with some sort of point/counterpoint emerged. Even then it hasn't occurred in regards to your rant.

Actually the closest thing to the use of a straw man in this thread isn't even related to your post. It's Katz trying to bring up Windower in response to Greatguardian's post about claiming. He did so, however, due to extreme ignorance of what Windower actually can and can't do, but went there anyway thinking it was easier to attack rather than actually addressing Greatguardian's points about the rights to claims.

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You're not worth my time anymore so I'll try to keep this short.

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Originally Posted by Toggles

What Kiroh said is a way(i.e. taking words out of context) you can strawman but is not an all inclusive definition.

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Originally Posted by Puck

"Taking words out of context" is not the use of a strawman, either.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

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Reasoning

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
1. Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.
2. Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[2]
3. Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[1]
4. Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
5. Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
3. Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious, because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position.

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You have a serious reading comprehension problem. When I listed in-thread examples I specifically stated they fell short. Funny that, considering the relevancy of your posts to this topic. No, seriously, do you even realize how many times you've done it in this thread, presumably without even knowing since you still can't fully understand the term.

ANYTHING(virtually?) can be strawman'd, even a 'rant'. Why you think otherwise it beyond me.




Sources cited, examples given, simplistic step by step comparisons made showing your errors, yet you still fail to accept that you're wrong. Others' have tried their hand at it and you do not budge. Just about all your words can accurately be said straight back to you, that's how out of touch your are on the topic.

You struck me as a total troll from the start but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Since then I've realized I should have went with my initial instinct instead of helping out your 'ignorance'. I'll be disregarding the rest of your posts on the matter. Neither side wins in a "NO, you!" war.

Good day to you, sir.

Yep, you went back down the route of insinuating "trolling" just as you did before. Good luck avoiding all that "strawmanning" and other forms of "trolling" trampling over your ultimately irrelevant rants in the future.

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Originally Posted by Meyi

stuff (sorry for the snip)

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Okay so first off I actually agree with or don't have a problem with most of the things you said.

A couple things:

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I have never seen a mercenary group randomly pick a monster, go out, outclaim other people, and then laugh at them as they ask for money or to let the item drop. While this may happen it's not the norm.

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I have. It didn't happen to me personally but I've seen it happen more than once. It was a pretty cr*p thing to watch.

I agree when you say it's not the norm but it sure must have been 'norm' enough for the poor people I saw get shafted. Maybe there was more to it, maybe not, idk but nevertheless it exists. Let's not forget that 1 out of 100,000 is still 100% to the 1 person out of every 100,000.

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There's absolutely nothing wrong, disgusting, or immoral about our transaction.

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You're fighting the mob because you guys need something. There's nothing wrong with that. Making someone else pay for an item that would otherwise 'drop into the abyss' just because you don't know them is, well... it's definitely not 'nice', that's for sure.

I'm not talking about that in the OP, though. It's a gray area I don't care to get into, both sides have valid points.

The 'immoral' I was speaking about(before I got derailed by others) was falsely creating a market for said R/Ex item. inb4 poidh ;)

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In before "rare/ex means you need to work for it!!!!"

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lol

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They never said we couldn't sell rare/ex.

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I agree. But as I said to GG(I think), it's pretty obvious that they never intended for R/Ex to be sold... another grey area.

It's like saying "if I can climb the fence then it's okay for me to be in there". Logicically we know the purpose of a fence as we do the purpose of a R/Ex tag. If we can't agree on this then there's no further discussion for the two of us to have.

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I'm honestly surprised people are so offended by having other people lotting on the same item as you. Back in the day monsters we would farm would have very very poor drop rates, and everyone was after the same thing. Now that monsters drop up to 4 different kinds of seals, people feel entitled to one of them. I have no qualms with everyone locking in a job/item, but sometimes people have to share to get the necessary job or help in.

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This is the big one I wanted to address, mainly the earlier parts of it. Yeah, I was there when you'd have an alliance going into EN and the second someone finally got their paper they magically had some pressing matter that they needed to attend. Thing is, if I wanted to be playing that kind of game after all these years... well, I wouldn't want to be, period.

Now onto the correction I have to make of that quote in regards to my OP. I'm not offended by lotting against others in equality, never said I was.

Here's what I'm 'offended' about(remember, this is a package deal):

Shouter gets guaranteed lots
NM takes no prep work -or- equal prep work is not present
Everyone else who fought equally as hard are FLing for drops for which there are not enough of for all

Now this may not be a common occurrence on your server. From my experience on my server, however, it is.

Where does it end? Selling atmas? Selling boss clears? Because I've seen both of those and that's just jerk s**t right there. I'm not talking about "I'll pay you to get me an atma", I'm talking about group of 8-10 people killing w/e boss and won't invite you for clear unless you pay. They lose nothing from you joining...

To get this on topic.

Before SE decided they didn't want me playing more I saw these all over Phoenix as well.. I figured the stupidity was limited to just the cut throat gil focused nature of all the players selling anything they could get their hands on including their grandmother.

Good to know it transcends all the servers.

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Originally Posted by Toggles

Where does it end? Selling atmas? Selling boss clears? Because I've seen both of those and that's just jerk s**t right there. I'm not talking about "I'll pay you to get me an atma", I'm talking about group of 8-10 people killing w/e boss and won't invite you for clear unless you pay. They lose nothing from you joining...

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Ah, as I said before, people can sell whatever they want to sell... if they have an audience to sell to. If you feel this is corrupt then make your own shout to go do it instead. The beautiful thing about Abyssea is that many of the monsters respawn rather quickly (???s included).

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Where does it end? Selling atmas? Selling boss clears? Because I've seen both of those and that's just jerk s**t right there. I'm not talking about "I'll pay you to get me an atma", I'm talking about group of 8-10 people killing w/e boss and won't invite you for clear unless you pay. They lose nothing from you joining...

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It's called Greed, it's very common in FFXI and pretty much any online community that involves money and people. people like that love to take advantage of you in order to make money.

a Fool and his money, some people will pay for anything if they don't have to work for it. i'v know many people who just sit in jueno or whitegate and just shouted for everything to wanted to buy. could swear they don't even leave the area unless to go buy it.

Who cares if people buy gear? Is it wrong to go buy fast food instead of cooking at home? I swear the crap people take a stance on these days amazes me.

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Originally Posted by Toggles

Where does it end? Selling atmas? Selling boss clears? Because I've seen both of those and that's just jerk s**t right there. I'm not talking about "I'll pay you to get me an atma", I'm talking about group of 8-10 people killing w/e boss and won't invite you for clear unless you pay. They lose nothing from you joining...

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People wouldn't do that if other people weren't willing to pay for it.

No idea why you get so worked up over this. Does it affect you in any way if someone is shouting in Port Jeuno offering boss win/atma/whatever for a price?

A couple of things irks me: one is when someone is shouting for people for a seal NM, and has themself as only lotter on the seal they want, then everything else is 0/2. And in those cases where people join a seal NM shout group where you have to buy a somewhat expensive pop item/set, and it turns out they never did but still lot on seals.

However, none of these more or less dumb shouts mentioned throughout this thread really bother me. I'll never understand why people feel need need to start a bitchfest in shouts because of it. If you don't like the deal, don't take it. Don't join these shout groups.

Edit (still waking up, sorry):

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I'm talking about group of 8-10 people killing w/e boss and won't invite you for clear unless you pay

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I have to say I have never heard of that happening, at least on my server. Whenever I've been doing a zone boss for w/e reason, and someone is there asking for win, I've invited them np, and I don't know anyone who's charged the person needing the win before inviting them. Agreeing with that part, if someone is standing there @ pop spot asking to join for win only, and get told they need to pay, that's a pretty shitty thing to do.

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A couple of things irks me: one is when someone is shouting for people for a seal NM, and has themself as only lotter on the seal they want, then everything else is 0/2.

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What seal NM inside abyssea requires 7 people to begin with?

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

What seal NM inside abyssea requires 7 people to begin with?

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You know the answer to that, all I'm saying is I see these shouts and they make me facepalm.

Technically, you're not selling the atma/item.

You're selling the chance at it, with [usually] a pre-obtained pop set that would otherwise take the buyer a long time to achieve.

Sure, I'm not okay with it [who the hell tries to market 100% R/E drops?], but people find even the weirdest ways to make money.

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Originally Posted by Modoru

You're selling the chance at it, with [usually] a pre-obtained pop set that would otherwise take the buyer a long time to achieve.

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A good merc group will charge you only if the item drops. I know some who charge up front but return the gil if it doesn't drop, anyways the point is if you're paying just for a chance that's a deal just as bad as locking multiple/all the good items before getting others for +1/2 items.