[Soap Box] {Lock On} & general charity shouts

[Toggles]

You implored people not to "strawman;" explain what you think that means. Because you're using a buzzword people like to throw around on here a lot, and none of you really know what it means or how to use it.

*sigh* If you wanted to know how to use it you could just google it.

Anyway, when I asked people not to strawman me I was asking them to refrain from taking my words and turning them into something I didn't say for the sake of 'proving me wrong' all the while I never said w/e twisted point they're now arguing.

My disclaimer addressed obvious strawman arguments that I saw coming.

An example would be the post by Exxodus. Despite my disclaimer, he still was confused about my stance. However confused != strawman. I don't feel like he strawman'd my OP but it came very close. "If this is what the OP is referencing" was the saving grace. As you can see in my response to his post, I am not against what he referenced. Had he implied I was[against] and then went on to show me how I was wrong under said skewed circumstances...

Another borderline strawman post is when Greatguardian brought up Rare nonEx scrolls that BLMs want to lot. The only difference is he didn't 'accuse' me of having that stance, instead he likened it to what I was saying. I'm sure that's probably a fuzzy line that people often can't tell the difference between... maybe what you're referring to on your little crusade here.

Again, you could have just googled it instead of asking me to explain it for you, it's a pretty simple concept to grasp.

take what someone said/their position
change it slightly(to be obviously wrong) to suit your needs
easily 'prove them wrong' because of your changes
???
profit


Now happily admit you're a 'grammar nazi misspelling word while scolding someone for improper spelling' and we can be on our ways.

[katz]

Isnt English a wonderful language. Spoken in so many countries and yet somehow the same words are used for different meanings. A strawman poll is used as a vote amongst peers.

[Puck]

*sigh* If you wanted to know how to use it you could just google it.

Anyway, when I asked people not to strawman me I was asking them to refrain from taking my words and turning them into something I didn't say for the sake of 'proving me wrong' all the while I never said w/e twisted point they're now arguing.

My disclaimer addressed obvious strawman arguments that I saw coming.

An example would be the post by Exxodus. Despite my disclaimer, he still was confused about my stance. However confused != strawman. I don't feel like he strawman'd my OP but it came very close. "If this is what the OP is referencing" was the saving grace. As you can see in my response to his post, I am not against what he referenced. Had he implied I was[against] and then went on to show me how I was wrong under said skewed circumstances...

Another borderline strawman post is when Greatguardian brought up Rare nonEx scrolls that BLMs want to lot. The only difference is he didn't 'accuse' me of having that stance, instead he likened it to what I was saying. I'm sure that's probably a fuzzy line that people often can't tell the difference between... maybe what you're referring to on your little crusade here.

Again, you could have just googled it instead of asking me to explain it for you, it's a pretty simple concept to grasp.

take what someone said/their position
change it slightly(to be obviously wrong) to suit your needs
easily 'prove them wrong' because of your changes
???
profit


Now happily admit you're a 'grammar nazi misspelling word while scolding someone for improper spelling' and we can be on our ways.

Maybe you should've taken your own advice and Googled it before you proved that you don't know what it means.

straw man
n.
1. A person who is set up as a cover or front for a questionable enterprise.
2. An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated.
3. A bundle of straw made into the likeness of a man and often used as a scarecrow.

You didn't provide a single example of someone employing a strawman argument. Instead you cobbled together your own idea of what you think it means and gave examples that in no way exemplified the use of a strawman.

Now happily admit that you threw around a buzzword with no idea what it actually meant like so many other "master debaters" on this board.

[noodles355]

Before you go slandering anyone about tard you should check the facts out, I wasnt the only person in the group who saw the said individual climbing up the wall to get to an nm pop that you normally have to conflux to. Just because you are naive enough to think people dont cheat in the game doesnt mean it doesnt go on.

"My group is retarded enough to think that this tool is a product of the windower team".

How about you take a mintue to re-read my post:

THIS IS NOT A WINDOWER PLUGIN.

WHAT YOU ALL WITNESSED WAS A PLAYER USING A DIFFERENT 3RD PARTY APPLICATION LIKE FFXIAPP OR WIZBOT.

You quoted me then tried to argue against me but didn't even apparantly read my post. My issue with your posts is that you accuse windower.net of offering plugins or services that are just not offered. In all cases what you saw was a player using a botting program like FFXIAPP or Wizbot. However, you slander Windower.net by suggesting this crap is available through them. It is not. You have done no research. You are starting trouble for no reason other than either 1) ignorance or 2) trolling. Sit down, shut up.

[Aver]

Lol all you want about windower. It still gives you an advantage over other users who cant use it. Id love to write the macros you guys can but sadly xbox dont allow it. You Can use windower to re write dat files to accept 3rd party software. The fact that you dont know this is surprising how little you exploit your windower. Remind me again if its harmless how come you need to use it over someone who doesnt use it. You might think you arent getting any advantages but then why are you using it. Id ban all windows from the game on the pc if I could. Windower has not been proven to not give you any advantage. The day you put it on xbox and its the same is the day you can prove it.

1) Windower cannot "rewrite dat files"
2) Datmodding does not give an advantage to the player (unless you count clearing the HORRIBAD LAG FROM CONFLUXES an advantage)
3) Windower Team (Nitsuj, Aikar, Azaril, etc) != w!zbot team != random billy bot maker. Get your facts straight. Windower team is very much against botting, which, if you would look 6 inches past your nose and check out the forums and approved/unapproved mods you would see.

Gawd.

[Rearden]

Isnt English a wonderful language. Spoken in so many countries and yet somehow the same words are used for different meanings. A strawman poll is used as a vote amongst peers.

Whatever you say Kyi :3

[Kiroh]

Isnt English a wonderful language. Spoken in so many countries and yet somehow the same words are used for different meanings. A strawman poll is used as a vote amongst peers.

No no, that's a straw poll, not strawman.

A strawman argument is picking out one specific part of a statement and attacking it, rather than addressing the issues raised.

And @ OP, I agree that locking everything just because you start the group is BS and idiotic. My remedy though is to just ignore the groups. I admit I have had people who joined just to help, but I've never locked more than one item per character in the group. I also don't do FL on items unless no one has locked it, I don't like groups where people are fighting for drops so everyone gets to lock an item before we head out. Seems like common sense to me that everyone gets something for their work.

[Greatguardian]

Still off.

Straw manning is taking an opponent's argument, ignoring it completely, and then creating an argument that looks similar to theirs on the outside and destroying it without actually addressing the original point.

Example:

-"Dogs are smelly"
-"Dogs? Cats clean themselves all the time! How can you call Cats smelly when they're practically always licking themselves? You're an idiot!"
-"What the crap does that have to do with dogs?"

[wish12oz]

I don't know if I should feel better or worst that it's not just my server.

It's not just your server. I see downs syndrome kids shouting for stuff all the time on Odin. I think it's fun to join these groups, then ditch after they get there, also to call them foolish in shout, or shout and say I'm doing the same thing they are, but not being dumb about it.

The new annoyance is the people who join shouts for NMs that have decently expensive pop items, and then don't buy pops, but want equal lotting rights on stuff. That just infuriates me.

[Toggles]

</3 to the huge derails.

A big thanks to Anethia, Harukusan and wish12oz(love the sig) for addressing the topic in which I was interested. Now I know that Lakshmi, Ragnarok, Caitsith and Odin have the same junk, at least to some degree.

Greatguardian, we obviously don't agree on some issues, nothing personal. Sorry for the "Edjamacation" cheap shot, I was irked by the strawman accusation and it slipped out.

Maybe you should've taken your own advice and Googled it before you proved that you don't know what it means.

straw man
n.
1. A person who is set up as a cover or front for a questionable enterprise.
2. An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated.
3. A bundle of straw made into the likeness of a man and often used as a scarecrow.

You didn't provide a single example of someone employing a strawman argument. Instead you cobbled together your own idea of what you think it means and gave examples that in no way exemplified the use of a strawman.

Now happily admit that you threw around a buzzword with no idea what it actually meant like so many other "master debaters" on this board.

Darn my overwhelming urge to insult you. I'll try to keep this as civil as possible.

What I said falls under point 2 of your definition, it's just a condensed explanation of what I said. I'll explain for you.

"2. An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated."

An argument or opponent = take what someone said/their position
set up so as to be = change it slightly(to be obviously wrong) to suit your needs
easily refuted or defeated. = easily 'prove them wrong' because of your changes
"??? profit" = for the lols because forum discussions get too heated and could use some lols

What Kiroh said is a way(i.e. taking words out of context) you can strawman but is not an all inclusive definition. Greatguardian's definition was dead on. I'll reiterate, my original usage of the word was just fine and so was my post explaining it.

I've been using the term 'straw man' before it became a buzz word and I'm flattered that you'd liken me to a 'master-debater'. Really, I'm just some schmuck with strong opinions.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...93l193l0.1l1l0

All from the first page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Description of Straw Man
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

As the "straw man" metaphor suggests, the counterfeit position attacked in a Straw Man argument is typically weaker than the opponent's actual position, just as a straw man is easier to defeat than a flesh-and-blood one. Of course, this is no accident, but is part of what makes the fallacy tempting to commit, especially to a desperate debater who is losing an argument.

http://www.drury.edu/ess/Logic/Informal/Strawman.html

Straw Man occurs when

an opponent takes the original argument of his/her adversary

and then offers a close imitation, or straw man, version of the original argument;

"knocks down" the straw man version of the argument (because the straw man, as its name implies, is a much easier target to hit, undermine, etc.)

-- and thereby gives the appearance of having successfully countered/overcome/answered the original argument.

Now happily admit you're guilty of your own accusations and we can be on our ways.