Information on inventory relief, via staff consolidation, efforts

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Originally Posted by Dodu

Or they could skip the unnecessary lore and give us.. damage staves, macc. staves, and perpetuation staves. Its an extreme amount of busywork for a very reasonable reward, and we'd still be carrying around, at least, Terra's and Surya's.

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Took 4 pages until someone hit the nail on the head.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

There is a trade-off though: The universal tools and cards cost more. They feel there must always be a tradeoff for convenience like this, it seems.

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This is true, however, a little bit more gil or a little bit more time crafting is worth the inventory space.

Magian staves being condensed would still require that the player builds all of the staves required for the fusion to be magian'd to the max level. The work load would still be the same (if not more to encourage people to make staves they otherwise wouldn't have made), and there would probably be another magian quest to fuse them.

I can see it now...we get to level 99 on all the magian staves, then we are required to do another 300 monster set for each staff to change it from +4 to -4, to which we then take all of the -4s to the moogle, trade all 8 at once (or 4 depending on whichever stats are meshed), and have to kill another 1000 of some type of monster to finally get the Prism Staff of our dreams.

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No it's not, because those staves all have attributes that go beyond the element-specific enhancement. Having all of those stats and skill bonuses and such at the same time would most certainly be stronger all together than having to switch between them. How much is something you can argue, but it would be more advantageous than just having the general magic bonus. The dev team clearly feels that there must be some kind of trade-off for not having to switch between the staves. To them, it's not just a matter of inventory space.

Again, I'm not necessarily endorsing this, but in my view, that's how they are seeing it.

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The magian staves don't have the bonus unique stats like PDT, HMP, and so on. Look at all the damage paths. They all currently end in Damage +5, Accuracy +1, and 12% faster cast for their respective elements. Lumping them all together would not improve those statistics unless SE chose to improve them, hence why the only change is how many inventory spots you get.

As others noted, some would probably still being carrying an Earth/Terra's and a cure staff, maybe an HMP one. They'd still gain more space, and more space means less inventory juggling to make sure you get drops, can change jobs more quickly, and so on.

If we were to lump via name, I would definitely do every Magic Accuracy+5 staff to meld with my Magic Damage+5 ones. That'd definitely be another month or two of guaranteed money from me!

I'd still be content if we lumped via stats. Could even name them after the jobs that are most likely to use them (Goetia's Staff, Caller's Staff, etc).

I'd be fine with trials that merge those staves then, I guess. I think the level 2 skillchain staves idea is the most reasonable from a give-and-take standpoint.

Light and Darkness would be most reasonable to me if not all-in-one. Two is still better than eight.

We'd still have to put forth the work to receive inventory space. I don't understand the "trade-off" argument, since we'd clearly have to do something to fuse the staves together. Nobody's asking for it to be done for free.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

THe whole reason SE created situational gear in the first place is because they consider having many effects on one item - even if you can carry multiple items that have those effects in total - too strong, or at least stronger. They want people to decide what to bring with them, rather than bringing everything.

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That's why I said the logic is inapplicable to staffs. People aren't going to sporadically choose to not bring a staff if they need to use it because the effect on them is so grand. The trade-off for most people is premature, in that they don't pursue the staff to begin with. This leaves SE with the choice between people not doing content they offer and allowing convenience for the player. I strongly suggest SE will choose the latter.

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There is a trade-off though: The universal tools and cards cost more. They feel there must always be a tradeoff for convenience like this, it seems.

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Wrong. SE stated on the Japanese forums that they are looking into making universal tools more available. One way in which they achieve this is through synthesis recipes.

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People aren't going to sporadically choose to not bring a staff if they need to use it because the effect on them is so grand.

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Yes they are. I don't bring all 8 elemental staves with me on any job. I only bring the ones I need for what I'm doing. If you don't need to cast every element of spell, or you don't need the other stat benefits of all 8 stataves, then you don't need to carry them all with you.

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Wrong. SE stated on the Japanese forums that they are looking into making universal tools more available.

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Actually, I'm not wrong, because they're "looking into it"; it hasn't happened yet. The price is not likely to drop below that of the cheapest used ninja tools; however much it does drop. However, if/when it does happen it will set a precedent for reducing/eliminating tradeoffs for convenience.

Elemental staffs =/= Magian staffs. If people don't anticipate using an element often enough, they generally don't do the staff at all. In cases where people anticipate using an element, they'll give up any other piece of gear for the staff. Since they're the best item at what they do, no situational piece is going to triumph. The decisions you speak of are when two marginally good pieces come into conflict. These staffs are not marginal pieces of gear.

Universal tools not becoming cheaper than standard tools doesn't denote that SE wants you to make a trade-off; it's a function of the market. If they become popular, more people want to buy, and the price rises. It could also mean that SE doesn't want to screw all the crafts dependent on making non-universal tools. Your interpretation doesn't fit the evidence.

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Elemental staffs =/= Magian staffs. If people don't anticipate using an element often enough, they generally don't do the staff at all. In cases where people anticipate using an element, they'll give up any other piece of gear for the staff. Since they're the best item at what they do, no situational piece is going to triumph. The decisions you speak of are when two marginally good pieces come into conflict. These staffs are not marginal pieces of gear.

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Umm... Magian staves ARE situational in the same manner as the elemental staves were. Each one benefits one element. They are the best item for one purpose, but not for another. Thus, they are situational. I really don't know what you're trying to say here. The decision I speak of is when you need one item for one situation and another item for another situation. "s**t's situational."

I'm really starting to think Alhanelem just likes to debate everything. No matter how many agree or how good an idea is, he will ALWAYS debate against it for the sake of debating.

At this point, hes just another Pchan and any debate with him is pointless because he will ALWAYS disagree.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

I'm really starting to think Alhanelem just likes to debate everything. No matter how many agree or how good an idea is, he will ALWAYS debate against it for the sake of debating.

At this point, hes just another Pchan and any debate with him is pointless because he will ALWAYS disagree.

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I don't "just like to debate everything," and I absolutely do not go against everything for the sake of debating. But because people such as yourself just assume and decide this is the case, even if I agree with something, I will get raged against and have people like you posting attacks against me (and writing almost as if you think i'm not there). I'm not "pchan" whoever that is, and I do not just automatically disagree with everything.

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Originally Posted by Yugl

Wrong. SE stated on the Japanese forums that they are looking into making universal tools more available. One way in which they achieve this is through synthesis recipes.

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Which we know everyone will overcharge for.

Which everyone will undercut *

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Umm... Magian staves ARE situational in the same manner as the elemental staves were. Each one benefits one element. They are the best item for one purpose, but not for another. Thus, they are situational. I really don't know what you're trying to say here. The decision I speak of is when you need one item for one situation and another item for another situation. "s**t's situational."

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Most people don't go for situational staffs. Therefore, it's not "Do I bring X staff or not" in most cases. It's "Do I bother making X staff or not." How difficult is that to understand?

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Which everyone will undercut *

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People won't make them much except for themselves unless they can make a profit.

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Most people don't go for situational staffs.

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Oh really. Most people I know have elemental staves or have magian staves, all of which are situational. You do not see people using any of the staves that are built for multiple situations or are decent for overall use.

Whether or not you choose to make something has nothing to do with whether or not it's situational. More than likely, you will need more than one of those staves. Thus, they are situational. You might not need all of them, but you won't be using just one of them 100% of the time.

How difficult is that to understand?

So wait, wanting to do 30% more damage is situational now?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

People won't make them much except for themselves unless they can make a profit.

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Are you honestly implying that undercutting means people can't make profit?

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Oh really. Most people I know have elemental staves or have magian staves, all of which are situational. You do not see people using any of the staves that are built for multiple situations or are decent for overall use.

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How many of them have all 8 magian staffs? How many are in the process of obtaining all 8? How many have stuck with the most important elements and called it?

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Whether or not you choose to make something has nothing to do with whether or not it's situational.

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Lol? Of course it does. I'm not going to pursue a staff I'll use in 1% of my entire FFXI experience even if it is the best in that 1% scenario.

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More than likely, you will need more than one of those staves. Thus, they are situational. You might not need all of them, but you won't be using just one of them 100% of the time.

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HA! Here's where I throw your logic back at you. If I can combine them into Avatar, Damage, and Magic Accuracy staff, I would still need more than one of those staffs. By your logic, that means they're situational. Since they're situation, SE should have no problem with doing that because we still need to pick some items over others. BAM!

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Originally Posted by Kimble

I'm really starting to think Alhanelem just likes to debate everything. No matter how many agree or how good an idea is, he will ALWAYS debate against it for the sake of debating.

At this point, hes just another Pchan and any debate with him is pointless because he will ALWAYS disagree.

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Doesn't sound like the guy I know. He does always disagree, but he really does think he's right. ;)

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Originally Posted by Kimble

So wait, wanting to do 30% more damage is situational now?

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No, wanting to do 30% more damage with element X vs wanting to do 30% more damage with element Y is situational.

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Doesn't sound like the guy I know. He does always disagree, but he really does think he's right.

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False on both counts. I don't always disagree, nor do I think I'm always right.

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Are you honestly implying that undercutting means people can't make profit?

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Yes, if they have to undercut below cost to make the tools cheaper than just using the normal ones. It all depends on how much the recipes cost. You won't sell the crafted universal tools if they end up costing too much above what the normal tools cost. I suppose some people will happily pay more for convenience, but others will buy whatever is cheapest.

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Lol? Of course it does. I'm not going to pursue a staff I'll use in 1% of my entire FFXI experience even if it is the best in that 1% scenario.

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I'm not sure what you're saying here, but it sure doesn't have to do with whether something is situational or not. If something is good in 1% of situations, that's still a situation and the item is still good for it, hence the word SITUATIONAL. Unless you only EVER need one out of the 8 staves, then yes, they're situational. Just because that situation isn't common enough for you to move your lazy behind to get it, doesn't mean the item doesn't have a situational benefit.

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HA! Here's where I throw your logic back at you. If I can combine them into Avatar, Damage, and Magic Accuracy staff, I would still need more than one of those staffs. By your logic, that means they're situational. Since they're situation, SE should have no problem with doing that because we still need to pick some items over others. BAM!

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HAH! Here's where you failed to throw my logic right back at me, because your statement makes no sense! If you could combine all of the staves you neeed into one, it would no longer be situational, because you would not still need more than one of those staves. By my logic, that means it's NOT situational! BAM!

NOT situational = Something that is good all-around, and does not need to be swapped out for something else.
situational = something that is useful but does not cover all the bases and must be swapped for another item when a specific situation calls for it.

Do you only need one staff for general use? Then it's not situational. Do you need multiple staves for different purposes? Then they are situational. How hard is this to understand?

If I had a staff that boosted all elements in all ways as you described, then why would I need more staves? What would those other staves do?

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How many of them have all 8 magian staffs? How many are in the process of obtaining all 8? How many have stuck with the most important elements and called it?

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If you don't have all 8 staves or aren't pursuing all 8, then that simply means you have no need of the situational benefit that the ones you didn't get offer. it doesn't suddenly strip the term "situational" from the list of words that would describe them.

If I had a damage staff, I'm not using it to cast break. If I had an accuracy staff, I'm not using it to cast Blizzard IV. So... it's still situational.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Yes, if they have to undercut below cost to make the tools cheaper than just using the normal ones.

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Too bad the statement was undercut, not undercut to the point of no profit. If it were the latter, your point would be redundant and stupid.

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I'm not sure what you're saying here, but it sure doesn't have to do with whether something is situational or not.

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You said the choice to make or not make a staff does not depend on whether the staff is situational or not. It does.

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[B]HAH! Here's where you failed to throw my logic right back at me, because your statement makes no sense! If you could combine all of the staves you neeed into one, it would no longer be situational, because you would not still need more than one of those staves. By my logic, that means it's NOT situational! BAM!

NOT situational = Something that is good all-around, and does not need to be swapped out for something else.
situational = something that is useful but does not cover all the bases and must be swapped for another item when a specific situation calls for it.

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Terra's for Idle/PDT, Swords or Dagger for when RDMs need to en-melee certain NMs, and Plutos for resting. Still situational even if you combine the Avatar, Damage, and Magic Accuracy staff into one staff. BAM!

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If you don't have all 8 staves or aren't pursuing all 8, then that simply means you have no need of the situational benefit that the ones you didn't get offer. it doesn't suddenly strip the term "situational" from the list of words that would describe them.

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Too bad that's not the component of your argument I'm at conflict with. Your argument contains several point, the most relevant being that 1) SE wants you to choose between gear 2) Staffs are situation 3) SE makes gear situational so that you'll choose to carry some pieces and not others at given times. From this, you inductively argue that SE will not combine staffs because they want to maintain 3 and the only way to do so is to keep players from choosing to carry one piece over another. My counter is that Magian staffs are likely the last piece of gear a player is going to give up when choosing which pieces to carry or not because people often don't do the Magian staffs they'll marginally use. Hence, they won't satisfy (3). If they don't satisfy (3) already, SE can combine them without a problem.

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Terra's for Idle/PDT, Swords or Dagger for when RDMs need to en-melee certain NMs, and Plutos for resting. Still situational even if you combine the Avatar, Damage, and Magic Accuracy staff into one staff. BAM!

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If I'm a summoner, what do I care if an RDM needs a sword for enspells? The staff isn't situational to *me*. The staff wouldn't be situational to a black mage. The staff wouldn't be situational to a white mage. The job you're playing matters. The only way you could make an item like that completely nonsituational to all jobs would be a weapon that's "all jobs, level 1, DMG:150, "All effects of all spells, abilities and all stats +30%". Think we'll ever get that? probably not...

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Hence, they won't satisfy (3). If they don't satisfy (3) already, SE can combine them without a problem.

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They still satisfy (3), unless you only get one of the staves and only ever need one of the staves.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

If I'm a summoner, what do I care if an RDM needs a sword for enspells? The staff isn't situational to *me*. The staff wouldn't be situational to a black mage. The staff wouldn't be situational to a white mage.

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SMN would want Terra's/Plutos. RDM would want sword/dagger+Terra's (Unless using PDT Sword + Genbu's) + Pluto's on occasion. BLM wants Terra's/Plutos. WHM wants Terra/Plutos/Owleyes+Genbu's Shield. Still situational. BAM!

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They still satisfy (3), unless you only get one of the staves and only ever need one of the staves.

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They don't satisfy (3) because you can't choose between bringing gear you don't have and another piece of gear.

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They don't satisfy (3) because you can't choose between bringing gear you don't have and another piece of gear.

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Um, what? Yes, you can choose, unless, like I said, you only actually need one out of the eight. If you need more than one, you'll have more than one, and you will be choosing between a piece of gear you have and another piece of gear.

Your funny logic just doesn't make any sense.

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SMN would want Terra's/Plutos. RDM would want sword/dagger+Terra's (Unless using PDT Sword + Genbu's) + Pluto's on occasion. BLM wants Terra's/Plutos. WHM wants Terra/Plutos/Owleyes+Genbu's Shield. Still situational. BAM!

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Bam? what are you bamming? you haven't refuted anything I've said here.

If I had an all-in-one elemental staff (be it crafted or magian), why would I need a terra's or pluto's? In fact, why would any of the jobs you listed need those if they had an all-in-one staff?

Are you saying I'd need pluto for healing MP? Who rests MP anymore?

Terra's staff? When do I ever NEED that on SMN or BLM or WHM if I have an all in one staff?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Um, what? Yes, you can choose, unless, like I said, you only actually need one out of the eight. If you need more than one, you'll have more than one, and you will be choosing between a piece of gear you have and another piece of gear.

Your funny logic just doesn't make any sense.

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Ok, then you can still choose between Ultra Staff, Terra's Staff, Owleyes+Genbu's Shield, and Sword/Dagger. And since, according to you, I can "choose" between gear I don't have and those I do, it wouldn't be a problem for SE to combine all the aforementioned weapons into one. After all, I'm still making a choice between carrying that and onion dagger, even if I don't own a onion dagger.

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If I had an all-in-one elemental staff (be it crafted or magian), why would I need a terra's or pluto's? In fact, why would any of the jobs you listed need those if they had an all-in-one staff?

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Because a combined magian staff still lacks PDT+Refresh+Cure Cast Reduction+hMP+Evisceration+CDC.

Once again, you ability to make no sense astounds me. Why are you talking about things you don't have? Let's see. I need to enhance slow, so there's my magian earth staff. Next, I need to cast thundaja. There's my thunder magian staff for that. Lets just say those are the only two things I ever need to do, and I only have those two staves. I have to choose between casting slow with the earth staff, and casting thundaja with the thunder staff. Two different situations each calling for a different piece of gear.

Like I said for the 50th time, unless you only ever need one staff, you will need to switch between one or more weapons, and thus (3) is fufilled.

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Evisceration

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Is not something you find on a staff. whoa, we're making less and less sense by the sentence.

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Originally Posted by Yugl

They don't satisfy (3) because you can't choose between bringing gear you don't have and another piece of gear.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Um, what? Yes, you can choose

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Once again, you ability to make no sense astounds me. Why are you talking about things you don't have?

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Aaaaaaand we're done here.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Is not something you find on a staff. whoa, we're making less and less sense by the sentence.

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Which means an ultra staff is still situational! Hence, SE should have np making it.

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Which means an ultra staff is still situational! Hence, SE should have np making it.

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When would I ever use evisceration?

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Aaaaaaand we're done here.

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Good, I'm glad you've decided to give up, because you discovered you actually aren't making sense.

Alhanelem, stop talking. NO ONE AGREES WITH YOU. Go away.

It's not 'overpowered' to be able to take 8 staves that do the same thing and condense them down to one. Or are you in the camp that being able to stack crystal clusters is 'overpowered'.

Seriously. Your argument is wrong, you are wrong. Go. Away.

I dont think its overpowered to make one staff have Magic damage +5 and -12% magic casting time another one with pre cost -6 and BP delay -10. How would it be broken to save inventory space?

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Alhanelem, stop talking. NO ONE AGREES WITH YOU. Go away.

It's not 'overpowered' to be able to take 8 staves that do the same thing and condense them down to one. Or are you in the camp that being able to stack crystal clusters is 'overpowered'.

Seriously. Your argument is wrong, you are wrong. Go. Away.

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Someone didn't read the thread. You are calling SE wrong, because as far as I can tell, SE feels this way. SE is the one who feels that all the staves rolled into one would be too powerful.

You know what? I would LOVE to have all 8 staves rolled into one. I'm simply explaining why it won't happen.

So maybe you should go read the *&#^$ thread before you continue to attack me and being immature.

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I dont think its overpowered to make one staff have Magic damage +5 and -12% magic casting time another one with pre cost -6 and BP delay -10. How would it be broken to save inventory space?

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I agree. I would love to have it. Again, I'm only trying to explain away why SE won't make it happen.

You people have just decided to hate on me and not even really read or try to understand what I'm saying. Little did you know I was agreeing with you the whole time. I WAS ONLY TRYING TO EXPLAIN, OR PERHAPS HYPOTHESIZE IS THE WORD, WHY SE WILL NOT DO IT.

Obviously something about how I go about discussing things is confusing people or causing them to get the wrong idea, because now I get perosnally attacked even when I agree with the person doing the attacking!

Well, perhaps stop it and wait for SE to actual give us a response.

You seem like you are trying to pass that what you think SE will say is fact, when it is not.

I have a useful suggestion:

How about adding the Obi effects to the magian staves?

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Originally Posted by Kimble

Well, perhaps stop it and wait for SE to actual give us a response.

You seem like you are trying to pass that what you think SE will say is fact, when it is not.

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No, I'm not passing it as fact. I am however passing it as a probable hypthesis, as they have made statements in the past that would imply that something like an all-elements-in-one staff is not likely.

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How about adding the Obi effects to the magian staves?

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would be cool, to be sure, but now we're talking about combinging two items in different gear slots. That would eliminate the need for any of those items and allow you to wear a belt with completely different effects. Don't you think that might be taking it a little far? Don't get me wrong, though, because I like the idea, just saying.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

That would eliminate the need for any of those items and allow you to wear a belt with completely different effects.

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There aren't a lot of good belts you can wear - the best belts you can wear currently are the Obi, or if none of them are an option, some form of Fast Cast or Haste belt, or a belt that gives like 5 MAB or 10 INT or MND. The obi are so far ahead of any other equip option except when casting stuff that isn't affected by any more potency like Raise or certain enhancing magic (stuff you'd macro away from the obi for) that it wouldn't really hurt much to include this into the elemental staves.

In fact, the elemental staves don't have much further to go currently, so it sort of makes sense these effects would be added. I've heard that the cure potency staff for example, is only going up 1% in the next five levels, and the most common assumption is that by 99 it will only go to 25%. Two percent in nine levels is pitiful for the cost of upgrading - I certainly hope there is more to the upgrade then that.

All that said, if SE decides to make the staves work like obi in addition to other effects, the trial will probably include either farming the parts for the obi, or turning in an obi itself to make the staff. If the even plan on it. But I don't think that a couple extra INT or MAB is going to be the reason they wouldn't do this if they plan on not doing it.

ITT: Alhanelem thinks he knows how the Devs think.

Tell me Al, since you seem to have an in with the Devs, why don't you expand on some things that I'm sure a lot of people are very interested in?

Why are most mythics shit?
Why do the Devs continue to make melee based Relic/Mythic/Emp staves for BLM and SCH?
Why does RDM not have native staff skill?

There are a great many mysteries I'm sure people would be delighted to know since you seem to understand the Devs more than any of us.

Analhelm ruining another great idea. You posted what you had to say, you disagree with great ideas all over the place.

You also like to argue and cause topics to go...off topic. If this wasn't true you would have stopped bickering after your first post and let people continue discussing the topic of combining the staves. We get it, you and Koprg have 70 extra inventory slots; the rest of us do not.

In before you say "I WILL NOT BE HELD DOWN" or some other martyrish excuse for why you need to keep propagating your ideas. You've said your peace and we disagree. Leave it at that. Any continuation to the contrary is an admission of guilt as far as WANTING to argue and WANTING to cause trouble in every topic you post in. That's called trolling and it is not okay on these message boards.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Someone didn't read the thread. You are calling SE wrong, because as far as I can tell, SE feels this way. SE is the one who feels that all the staves rolled into one would be too powerful.

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Did SE ever say that? Don't tell people they are disagreeing with SE, when SE didn't say anything. They are disagreeing with you.

Noone wants to hear your explanation of why SE won't do anything 50 times in one thread. Are you allowed to say it? Of course, but once is enough, and when everyone in the thread disagrees with you for the next 5 pages, its time to bow out and let people discuss what they want to discuss, instead of continuing an argument that is obviously going nowhere.

Viewing threads that Analhelm hijacks gives me a headache...

Along the lines of combining staves, I think it's a good idea. Maybe even a staff sack or a pouch of some kind would be cool too. Not saying that it would be easy or possible to implement, would just be cool is all.

In my opinion, a very likely reason that SE devs haven't yet considered combining staves is that they aren't "done" with the trials they have planned for them. Assuming that they intend to continue to add trials for the existing staves to makes them better as the level cap increases further, it would make sense that they would want those staves to be at their final stage before any kind of combination were to take place. Merging existing staves now wouldn't make sense if they plan to add more trials for them between now and 99. If they were going to merge them, the would most likely want to merge the final versions.