If RDM and SCH can't have Cure 5, give us Afflatus Misery/Solace

Is this where we ask for defender to do something more than boost loldefense, or has that boat long since sailed.

I've had some decent WAR tanks before now who can take a beating. I don't see them in Abyssea, but then I don't see PLD ones either - at least not often. I'm just agreeing with the dude that WAR is versatile. WAR might need work on its defense side, but I'm just saying, its capable of taking the defensive position as a tank.

The word 'extreme' might well...be a bit extreme, but I'm using Xelith's words here. A WAR is capable of being a DD and a tank.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

WAR can activate Retaliation and be healed by a White Mage, meaning a WAR is capable of fulfilling dual roles - tank and heavy DD.

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You had a minor typo, but don't worry, I fixed it for you.

I don't think I've ever seen a tank that hasn't needed a healer. A good tank is backed by a good healer, tanks aren't invincible after all. If you can take a beating enough to stay alive and keep hate, then you can tank.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

I don't think I've ever seen a tank that hasn't needed a healer. A good tank is backed by a good healer, tanks aren't invincible after all. If you can take a beating enough to stay alive and keep hate, then you can tank.

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Doesn't mean that WAR has defensive capabilities.

Edit: Unless you consider killing things faster than imaginable defensive

At the risk of derailing things further, I'll post once more to try to clarify. I think the point about Warrior currently functioning better as a tank than some melee jobs is relevant, even though you fell into the dark abyss of mentioning Defender and it's ilk.

Being a huge jerk-face, I expressed this in a jerk-faced manner.

Defender was a poor example - I thought using it would illustrate how you have alternative roles like defense vs offense, but obviously failed and made things worse using Xelith's words "Extreme Offense" and "Extreme Defense". My mistake.

But WAR can still DD and tank. In Abyssea it would seem WAR is much better for DD than tanking, so I don't know if WARs want something better than defender and to increase their own defensive capabilities or not (I know some folk who want their PLD to tank more), but it wouldn't mean they'd be stepping on the toes of other tanks, just as WAR's DD isn't stopping other people's jobs from DDing (though it is much better for proccing red, granted, but I'm moving proc jobs aside here).

What WARs want: Well, nothing really. Ukko's Fury is enough to hold me over for a while. Only thing that's even been discussed in terms of "can have" are some silly ideas and Quadruple Attack! More like pipe dreams though.

Edit: Went way off topic.

SCH needs a Helix type cure!
RDM needs an enhancing type cure!

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

What WARs want: Well, nothing really. Ukko's Fury is enough to hold me over for a while. Only thing that's even been discussed in terms of "can have" are some silly ideas and Quadruple Attack! More like pipe dreams though.

Edit: Went way off topic.

SCH needs a Helix type cure!
RDM needs an enhancing type cure!

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True.

Also, does anybody know what Embrava is like? If it's any good, it might be the answer for SCH if it wasn't only available under Tabula Rasa (Tabula Rasa would allow me to spam Rapture and cure like a boss anyway).

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

SCH needs a Helix type cure!

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Two or three of them actually but gdi, that's a fucking awesome idea! Sounds a lot like WoW or other MMO but whatever, it would be a very very original concept in FFXI! A HoT that does an initial heal and then goes on, if you want you can "consume" the remaining HoT with a modusveritas-like JA.

Omg I'm in love with this scenario! But it would probably be a bit too far off from current game mechanics. Too bad! Doubt it's gonna happen in the last 95>99 levels :P but that's a shame, it was an awesome idea.

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Originally Posted by Xellith

Im going to put this as simply as I can.

SCH isnt a whm.
SCH isnt a blm.

SCH SHOULDNT get abilities and spells that put it on par or surpasses these jobs.
SCH SHOULD Remain lesser than these two jobs.

Why? Because you can flick back and forth from healer to nuker.

Deal with it.

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I actually did come up with a method of having it so that SCH and RDM can have cure 5. It involves making it so that every cure spell with WHM will put on a powerful regen effect on the target. Also add more monsters that use doom moves that are unrecoverable with medicine and have it so that cure spells with misery up 100% remove the doom effect.

And there you have it. You get cure 5 and whms still are main healers.

Point is this. You are ALWAYS going to HAVE to be worse at healing than whm. Its not your job to be the best. Its to be the best of what schs can do. (I still think sch shouldnt even exist btw...)

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No one denies this. Cure V IS a spell SCH and RDM should get, it's not a question. It's a fact. Up until Cure VI was added RDM was always only one step behind other jobs with no AoE, so not getting Cure V when VI has been added and subjobs gain IV is a joke.

SCH as it stands is an odd one, it's currently on par with BLM for it's single target nukes, yet so very far behind Cure's on WHM. Now I'm not saying I want them to get Cure VI but it's certainly odd to be so far behind on curing but not on nuking.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

Two or three of them actually but gdi, that's a fucking awesome idea! Sounds a lot like WoW or other MMO but whatever, it would be a very very original concept in FFXI! A HoT that does an initial heal and then goes on, if you want you can "consume" the remaining HoT with a modusveritas-like JA.

Omg I'm in love with this scenario! But it would probably be a bit too far off from current game mechanics. Too bad! Doubt it's gonna happen in the last 95>99 levels :P but that's a shame, it was an awesome idea.

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It's definitely appropriate for how the job works. I used to love Regen II in the lower levels (37-50) because it was enough to keep people alive, because it meant I was able keep people's HP up and do other things. I think in a cure bombing situation your healing-helix would be there to enhance your curing, just as in a nuking situation your helices may be useful in enhancing your damage dealing (or dealing damage whilst you save somebody's ass). In other situations, you could throw that healing helix and take advantage of other roles - you may nuke or use elemental-helix spells or throw some enhancements, remove status effects or help with crowd control. Would it be overpowered? The recast of a helix is 37 seconds, so you couldn't spam it onto multiple party members at once, you could helix a tank, but reserve Cure IV for other members. Helices can't be AoE'd either, so you wouldn't be able to work around it. It'd help balance SCH's curing side, appeal to its exclusive set of spells and at the same time, be unique and restrictive enough to allow WHM to be the better healer with its own set of exclusive spells to top. Many reasons why this is a good idea, but we don't want to flatter the poor bloke too much. :p

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

No one denies this. Cure V IS a spell SCH and RDM should get, it's not a question. It's a fact. Up until Cure VI was added RDM was always only one step behind other jobs with no AoE, so not getting Cure V when VI has been added and subjobs gain IV is a joke.

SCH as it stands is an odd one, it's currently on par with BLM for it's single target nukes, yet so very far behind Cure's on WHM. Now I'm not saying I want them to get Cure VI but it's certainly odd to be so far behind on curing but not on nuking.

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Seriously, how many times do we have to go over this. Cure VI is not a reason to get a spell, Cure VI is a joke. White Mages would be less offended if you asked for Cure VI, because it sucks.

Imagine if Black Mage had a nuke that costed one hundred more MP to do one hundred more damage. This is pretty much what Cure VI is to a White Mage.

Saying that White Mage having Cure VI is a reason to get a spell, is to show massive, willful ignorance about the way healing works in the game.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

Sup.

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Can this be the rallying cry of White Mages everywhere, at least in response to people saying that nobody enjoys playing the job?

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

I like that it fulfills it's purpose really well, but it gives me more buttons to push than other single purpose jobs

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Several times I've almost requested to make the job harder to pick up and play, given the amount of people who talk about leveling a White Mage mule, but the more I think about it, perhaps it isn't that White Mage is so easy you can dual box it, but instead that traditional melee jobs are so easy that you can pick up another account and still be able to smack stuff for damage.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Seriously, how many times do we have to go over this. Cure VI is not a reason to get a spell, Cure VI is a joke. White Mages would be less offended if you asked for Cure VI, because it sucks.

Imagine if Black Mage had a nuke that costed one hundred more MP to do one hundred more damage. This is pretty much what Cure VI is to a White Mage.

Saying that White Mage having Cure VI is a reason to get a spell, is to show massive, willful ignorance about the way healing works in the game.

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No it isn't, the fact Cure IV doesn't cut it anymore is the reason the jobs need Cure V.

As for WHM, I've levelled it but paint drying is more entertaining than playing as it. It's a means to an end as opposed to a fun job.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

We don't want to be the best. We want our jobs to do what they were intended to do. One of the roles of RDM and SCH is to heal - not to heal as well as a WHM, but to be able to fill the role if a WHM isn't available. Now it's a necessity for many NMs to bring a WHM (this is excluding procs, because WHM has the upper hand even then, light procs). For every other job type there's a choice - if you need a tank you might choose a THF or a NIN, for Melee damage you might choose a WAR or a DRK, for enhancing you might choose a BRD or COR, for ranged attack you might choose a COR or RNG, for nuking you might choose a SCH or a BLM, for healing, you choose a WHM unless the NM is weak enough, then you've got a choice.


I also love SCH exclusive content, so as a solution I like Leon's idea because it's very much within the nature of SCH. His suggestion appeals to my play style from lower levels.

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This is all incorrect and has less to do with jobs capabilities and the dev team and more to do with the playerbase. SCH and RDM are not made to replace WHM if it isnt there. They are not healers. They are hybrids with RDM having more melee/enfeeble focus and SCH being more casting focused. SCH has decently capable nukes and can increase their accuracy with abilities, less mp cost, and some fast cast. Yes I know someone earlier mentioned how they hate books used as a reason but that is your unique ability, learn to use it more effectively and you can make up for "short comings" RDM just has never been allowed to melee...ever it is the only job that can have room to really complain, especially with the decision to give it high enhancing skill and not giving it unique buffs or AoE pro/shell.

If you need a tank you do not pick THF unless the mob is easy and does mostly physical attacks, if it nukes a THF is dead. It does not have the shadows or higher INT of NIN to block those and cannot enfeeble or use /DNC the same way to survive. WAR has the ability to use MANY weapon types and off tank, playerbase won't allow that. DRK's have just stopped using their magic completely and have the advantage to SC and MB....something people just rarely do anymore, it can also enfeeble and absorb attributes but doesn't, again playerbase fault.

When I start seeing more SCH's use their books and helix spells to boost their skills then maybe I can understand the want for more, but few do. However I agree with the idea of RDM getting more unique and AoE buffs or a buff/heal and giving SCH a super heal helix cool thing instead of Cure V.

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No it isn't, the fact Cure IV doesn't cut it anymore is the reason the jobs need Cure V.

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The fact that rdm and sch's highest cure is subbable /whm now and /rdm in the future is somewhat indicative of how outdated it is. Maybe we "aren't healers" but 44/51 levels without an upgrade is pretty amazing.

Cure v, healing helix, whatever, can't speak for how rdm's think but I'm sure most sch would be happy with anything as long as it lets them cast while waiting on cure4 recast.

As for misery/solace. That's silly, you're silly.

If it's less to do with the dev team then why was Cure IV available to RDM and SCH before Abyssea? In allowing RDM and SCH to use Cure IV when Cure IV was powerful enough for a main healer they've made RDM and SCH healers and healers who can be used when a WHM is not available. The player base will take what's available to them and make use of it. It's not the primary role of a RDM or SCH, granted, but it is 'a' role. With Abyssea Cure IV is less useful and RDM and SCH are in need of an update if they're going to remain true to their previous capabilties. Don't get me wrong, SCH is still a fantastic healer and people I team up with me probably think it's odd that I think SCH needs work in its healing department.

But personally, I love embracing a job's exclusivity and what makes them special rather than borrow too much from another job, hence I prefer the healing helix and enhancing cure ideas over being given Cure V.


But:

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When I start seeing more SCH's use their books and helix spells to boost their skills then maybe I can understand the want for more, but few do.

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This surprises me. I can't live without my stratagems (or books) and helix spells are great and can be used in a number of situations - as a companion for nukes, to deal additional damage without gaining a lot of hate whilst you spend your timing enhancing and healing and even to keep claim on an NM, but also kite them - SCH/RDM is great for kiting when a tank is dead or charmed - you're wearing the mob down, keep claim without having to directly damage the enemy.

Mind you, I've never teamed up with another SCH, even when using my other level 90 jobs, so I don't know how other people are playing the job.

Cure 4 sucks now. Cure 5 please.

Really though, WHM is the only viable healer now. Anything else yanks hate all over the place or just can't cure for enough. Wouldn't a supporting RDM with Cure V help when the WHM is incapacitated?

No, that would take the WHM's job away, wouldn't it.

It's not like WHM has huge cure potency, low casting times, cureskin, potent barspells, and mp return pants. Cure V is the only thing that's keeping them the main healer.

RDM and SCH will remain neglected, to say the least.

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Really though, WHM is the only viable healer now. Anything else yanks hate all over the place or just can't cure for enough.

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Or has ridiculous timers. (PUP, SMN, DNC) Though I bet if a DNC could spam their highest waltz, it would pull more hate than any other spell.

INB4 they raise the level of Cure IV to 50 for WHM to "fix" this problem.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

INB4 they raise the level of Cure IV to 50 for WHM to "fix" this problem.

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Lol, sounds like something they would do.

You give people Cure V they'll complain about being forced to focus on healing. You don't give people Cure V and they'll complain about not being able to heal effectively.

I'd rather complain about things I have to do than Things I can't do.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I'd rather complain about things I have to do than Things I can't do.

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^
This, many many times.

Yeah SE hurry up and give Rdm Cure V so they can move on to continuously whining about the next thing they can't do as well as another job (let's see you spent years crying about not being able to melee as well as a DD job, now it's crying over healing capacity, so I guess next is to cry that you can't nuke as well as Blm). As for Addle, you guys can keep it. I don't recall Whms ever asking for it, nor do we want it. Hell you can have Cure V (and VI for that matter) and Regen III; SE can give Whm a job trait that scales up allowing us to break the hard cap on cure potency and a few additional pieces of gear that have enhanced Regen potency on them.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Imagine if Black Mage had a nuke that costed one hundred more MP to do one hundred more damage. This is pretty much what Cure VI is to a White Mage.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

The fact Cure IV doesn't cut it anymore is the reason the jobs need Cure V.

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Is it weird that I think both of these statements are totally true and agree with both of them?

I think an awesome solution would be to increase the effect that MND and Healing Magic Skill have on Cure VI and give other jobs Cure V. If a decent White Mage's Cure VI were an assured full-cure for anybody outside of Abyssea, the spell wouldn't be the best thing since sliced meat but at least it wouldn't feel like "a worse Cure V for times when Cure V is down".

Unique methods of preventing people from dying would be super awesome, but given how incredibly "unique" stuff like Adloquium and the Animus spells turned out, I think the first reaction to such spells being announced would be fear. The second would be anger. The third would be split between acceptance and complaining about some aspect of Summoner.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I'd rather complain about things I have to do than Things I can't do.

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I'd rather laugh at people who refuse to perform a function of their job, while it adds more depth to my job and allows me to do more things, thus have tons more fun.

There is no reason for a MMO with 20 jobs to have ONE viable healer in every situation imaginable. If you cannot see this, you are blind.

Oh look, more WHM curebots who are scared RDM / SCH will take their job away (again). WHMs were only unwanted in merit parties. You were never replaced.

We don't want your job. We want to be able to support you. Cure IV isn't good enough for that.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I'd rather complain about things I have to do than Things I can't do.

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RDMs and SCHs really need to get over being left out in Abyssea, because a lot of the time it was either due to the ignorance of the playerbase or they planned on farming stuff during Light proc.

RDM or SCH can main heal the vast majority of seal NMs, they can main heal some Empy NMs, etc. I'd rather see both jobs get some more unique abilities rather than Cure V; it is nice that SCH and RDM are getting more cure potency next update.

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Originally Posted by Zatias

Oh look, more WHM curebots who are scared RDM / SCH will take their job away (again). WHMs were only unwanted in merit parties. You were never replaced.

We don't want your job. We want to be able to support you. Cure IV isn't good enough for that.

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Right, that was a lot of supporting RDM did at 75 healing. They were the sole healer for about 1/2 the events in game, if not more.

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Originally Posted by Salvation

Yeah SE hurry up and give Rdm Cure V so they can move on to continuously whining about the next thing they can't do as well as another job (let's see you spent years crying about not being able to melee as well as a DD job, now it's crying over healing capacity, so I guess next is to cry that you can't nuke as well as Blm). As for Addle, you guys can keep it. I don't recall Whms ever asking for it, nor do we want it. Hell you can have Cure V (and VI for that matter) and Regen III; SE can give Whm a job trait that scales up allowing us to break the hard cap on cure potency and a few additional pieces of gear that have enhanced Regen potency on them.

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The nuking aspect of RDM is perfect, it's inferior to BLM but NOT crazy inferior like it is curing wise.

No traits are necessary for WHM, the JA is amazing and the easy way they can reach 50% Potency, all they need to do is make Healing Magic actually relevant to cures.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Right, that was a lot of supporting RDM did at 75 healing. They were the sole healer for about 1/2 the events in game, if not more.

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Too bad the cap isn't 75 anymore, and I never had an event where RDM was designated main healer. They were always supporting the WHMs.

Unless you mean exping was the other half of "events". That I would understand.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

Is it weird that I think both of these statements are totally true and agree with both of them?

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It is because the guy who I replied to totally ignored the point he made a few minutes before and acted like I was arguing against some idiot's post. If the argument he wanted to make from the start wasn't "Other mages should get Cure V because White Mage gets Cure VI" he shouldn't have said that from the start.

Personally, if other jobs get Cure V, I will demand to SE that they give those jobs Cure VI, because if they can convince SE to give them Cure V, maybe they can convince SE to fix Cure VI.

The only legit argument I've seen about anything White Mage completely and utterly has (aside from Cure V) that can't be replaced or almost matched by something else are the White Mage AF3 pants, at least in lowman situations. Stuff like cure potency (guess who is going to be able to cap it next update?), magic defense, debuff removal, light damage nukes, cureskin, one light based sleep spell, are all things other jobs get, or can come close enough to that it doesn't matter.

I think that if SE ultimately decided to give Cure V to other jobs, and that they wouldn't improve White Mage's cure abilities to compensate, White Mage should get a slew of other tools and improvements to fit other role. They should be incredibly extreme improvements to secondary roles for White Mage to fill. Afflatus Misery could use a buff anyways, so I think that would be a good place to start.

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Originally Posted by Zatias

Too bad the cap isn't 75 anymore, and I never had an event where RDM was designated main healer. They were always supporting the WHMs.

Unless you mean exping was the other half of "events". That I would understand.

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Rdm healer at 75: Nyzul, experience, salvage, limbus farming, einherjar t1 and t2 wings, sky farming, dynamis

White mage healer- HNMs, ultima and omega, t3 einherjar and Odin, sky Gods

Your mileage may vary of course, this is just a quick list of how the various linkshells I was in worked it.

If I was in Dynamis on Rdm it was /blm, /drk, and I've heard of /nin and have the Rdm solo stones and have the blms crowd control (not that it was hard to main heal in dynamis, Rdm had other things to do).

Exp pts are not events, stop talking about exp parties. Whm/sch could still heal effectively in exp pts anyway.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Rdm healer at 75: Nyzul, experience, salvage, limbus farming, einherjar t1 and t2 wings, sky farming, dynamis

White mage healer- HNMs, ultima and omega, t3 einherjar and Odin, sky Gods

Your mileage may vary of course, this is just a quick list of how the various linkshells I was in worked it.

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This just shows that WHM has always been the superior healer in more difficult events. RDM was support/grinding type healing.

In our dyna shells black mages handled the stones and crowd control, red mages main healed the DD parties. Experience was one thing I mentioned. You can leave it out and the list still shows red mage as sole healer in many events.

I don't for a second believe many salvage groups were using anything but red mage as main heal. Same with limbus, my first limbus they flat out refused to allow white mages in the zone. Red mage was just too efficient.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Personally, if other jobs get Cure V, I will demand to SE that they give those jobs Cure VI

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The Red Mages and Scholars of Vana'diel would cast Cure VI for the first time, then they would know the pain of losing a fourth of their Magic Points for a disappointing cure and you would know revenge. The wheel of fate rolls over us all.

Exp/merit was the only thing I've ever done in which whm wasn't preferred.

Could rdm handle some of those things? Perhaps, but isn't that an argument for buffing rdm curing for the new levels?

Whm/Sch could have effectively done Nyzul and Dynamis last I checked, so knocking those two off leaves limbus, salvage, einherjar, and sky farming on your list.