Rudra's Storm mods

Yay Byrth agrees with me in a way :X

But ftp is not everything. RS still has double the amount of WSC of Evis and (for me) 35% more than DE.

Unless I'm using my TP Bonus dagger (I always use the TP Bonus earring), Rudra's doesn't perform comparably to Evisceration, Pyrrhic Kleos, or Dancing Edge for me. If I'm using the TP Bonus dagger, Rudra's does about as well as Evisc or PK, but Dancing Edge is still out in front of the pack. Factor in aftermath and I feel justified using Rudra's over Dancing Edge, but just barely. Factor in that I could be offhanding a STR Kila +2 and getting 2 base damage and 25 attack on both hands . . . and I stop using Rudra's and start using Dancing Edge.

I don't want to waste my offhand just so my weaponskill can be a mediocre alternative to three other weaponskills.

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Originally Posted by Laphine

But ftp is not everything. RS still has double the amount of WSC of Evis and (for me) 35% more than DE.

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I don't think That makes up for ~1.9fTP loss and 1.75fTP loss+Critical Hit chance over DE/Evisc (at 100% TP).

I might be wrong :(

I honestly feel like Im in the Twilight zone here, Why argue to keep a WS bad =.=a I'm so confused, are you people WAR's in disguise or something? Why is improving a WS to be more powerful Solo, as well as consistent Stacked met with such resistance.

Am i taking crazy pills ?!

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Originally Posted by Byrth

This is entirely my point though.

Blade Hi is 4.0 fTP, 60% AGI, and uses a D55 weapon. On top of that, it receives a 10-20% Critical Hit rate bonus (modded by TP) and can crit.

Rudra's Storm is 3.25 fTP, 60% DEX, and uses a D48 weapon. On top of that, it cannot crit unless forced.

While Blade: Hi is useful without a crit forcing JA, Rudra's is not. DNC and THF (ignoring lolBRD for the moment) received a weaponskill that is worthless without pairing it with a crit-forcing JA. If Rudra's had been 3.25 fTP and chance to crit, it would have been comparable to Blade: Hi outside Abyssea and worse than it inside. We could cap dDEX outside Abyssea, but we're also missing .75 fTP and using a dagger instead of a Katana.

I would personally like to see its fTP changed from 3.25~5.25 to 4.25~5.25. This way I could abandon my offhand TP Bonus Fusetto +2 in favor of the STR/Atk Kila +2 (much better for DPS) without any regrets. As it is, I would probably do the best damage outside Abyssea if I used an STR Kila +2 offhand and spammed Dancing Edge, tossing out a Climactic Rudra's only when No Foot Rise is up (once every 3 minutes) for a paltry 30 seconds of aftermath.

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Oh, I can definitely see where you're coming from. I suppose I really should just start quoting posts more often, really. I posted after you but I was primarily responding to Vold's rant about Ukko's and Blade: Hi. I'm just generally too lazy to snip really big quote posts, heh.

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Victory Smite, for example, is extremely powerful in the hands of a Monk, but Puppetmaster lacks the tools to use it to the sort of effectiveness that Monk can.

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Nonsense. VS is still very effective used by a PUP and is far better than the previous best WS. No, it's not AS good as MNK using it, but it's not as if they're two different WS depending on who's using it something. Having the automaton, you can't have as good stats for WSing. In the end, MNK obviously wins and there's a gap that needs closing, but don't make it sound like the WS is substatntially inferior when used by a PUP, because it isn't and I know from experience.

Perhaps I'm overreacting to your statement. But the point is it's a strong WS on either job.

Yes, you are overreacting. Monk can hit +100% Crit Damage, Pup ... can't. Instead of getting instantly defensive about your job's pride, realize that I was simply demonstrating that the raw power of a WS is only as important as the power of the job that wields it. Victory Smite is powerful regardless, but it's only "Brokenly omgz leet" in the hands of a Monk, much like Ukko's is "Brokenly omgz leet" in the hands of a Warrior. Similarly, Jishnu's can be as super powerful as it wants, it will still lack the "Brokenly omgz leet" title as long as Ranger's innate placement issues are still in play.

That's a fair explanation. THat said, you do need to remember that technically, PUP's other tools are (supposed) to make up for not having all of that max crit equipment and such. Not to say they completely do, but that's the concept of course.

Some weaponskills though, are underwhelming regardless of who uses them. I believe Rudra's Storm was being used as the example here?

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I don't think That makes up for ~1.9fTP loss and 1.75fTP loss+Critical Hit chance over DE/Evisc (at 100% TP).

I might be wrong :(

I honestly feel like Im in the Twilight zone here, Why argue to keep a WS bad =.=a I'm so confused, are you people WAR's in disguise or something? Why is improving a WS to be more powerful Solo, as well as consistent Stacked met with such resistance.

Am i taking crazy pills ?!

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I'm not entirely happy about RS lol, but i don't think we need a big change to make it the best for us. 4.25 as Byrth put it would be awesome. If we did get it to crit it would just shift things and ppl would now say "ohh thf and dnc do too much damage. Nerf them!".

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Originally Posted by Laphine

I'm not entirely happy about RS lol, but i don't think we need a big change to make it the best for us. 4.25 as Byrth put it would be awesome. If we did get it to crit it would just shift things and ppl would now say "ohh thf and dnc do too much damage. Nerf it!".

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Nah, THF would never get that powerful, Even considering a 6.0fTP mod with chance of crit wouldn't scratch what an Ukon or VS could do. Even if it could, It would only be with SA or TA, where as MNK and WAR can freely rape face, and do better DPS inbetween WS, and WS more frequently because it would't be tied to a 60s(x2) JA timer.

(outside Abyssea of course)

4.25 would still be weaker than DE/Evisc would it not? I mean, The Aftermath would make up for it, But i don't think even thats justified when again, we look at Ukko and VS, both supreme WS who get the pleasure of Kick-ass damage without sacrificing anything, and keep Aftermath up.

Still think 5.0 would be a nice baseline, but maybe 4.5?

With 4.25ftp RS would be a little bit better, which is great to make the aftermath a positive bonus. So yeah if it could crit, i'll be throwing the numbers i currently can with fusetto and SA. I really think this would push the edge a lot, specially for dnc and their skillchain spam.

But you know what, i'll just shush lol. Of course i'll be happy if RS is suddenly able to crit lol.

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Originally Posted by Laphine

With 4.25ftp RS would be a little bit better, which is great to make the aftermath a positive bonus. So yeah if it could crit, i'll be throwing the numbers i currently can with fusetto and SA. I really think this would push the edge a lot, specially for dnc and their skillchain spam.

But you know what, i'll just shush lol. Of course i'll be happy if RS is suddenly able to crit lol.

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Well, Remember if it can crit it wouldn't do number comparable to SA or TA, because of SA and TA's 100% mods :P (DEX and AGI respectively).

It'd just be significantly more useful unstacked too ;P!

I am, but SA (throwing numbers now) dex bonus might increase the overall ws damage by 25% or so. TA agi bonus under that for sure. I kinda think the offhand/and all the other extra attacks critting would out do them (if not, TA one at least) with the huge amounts of crit attack bonus we have.

I for one dont see anything wrong with Rudra's storm. Its a powerful ws already. Thf's with Twashtar actually make me jealous inside abyssea. Nothin like seeing a thf Crank out a 3k+ Rudra's then continue meleeing with aftermath effect and getting 3k+ crit melee hits. Its a good damaging ws and thf has been laid out to accentuate its nature of landing good crit hits often.

3k Rudra's in Abyssea should make you sad, not jealous. Look at this thread, haha.

If they bumped up Rudra's base fTP by 1 and let it crit hit, I'd only need 1 WS macro.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

3k Rudra's in Abyssea should make you sad, not jealous. Look at this thread, haha.

If they bumped up Rudra's base fTP by 1 and let it crit hit, I'd only need 1 WS macro.

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That sounds like a simple adjustment... Raise fTP by 1, and let it crit. = New best friend.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

That sounds like a simple adjustment... Raise fTP by 1, and let it crit. = New best friend.

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Sounds simple, but have you ever heard of the Relic Weapon Skills? Even with Damage +25% from the level 90 Relics and including their Aftermaths, half of them are still useless. That content was released more than half a decade ago and still hasn't been adjusted to the point that it's usable.

I'm just thankful that I got Climactic Flourish so Rudra's has a place in my arsenal at all.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I mean, Ideally you can SA or TA it, but lets face reality, how often can you do things "Ideally"? Its very rare for me these days that i can easily land a SA, TA is no problem, but its also much weaker, for one Favoring AGI for TA DMG over DEX (Rudra's mod) leads to lesser damage (by a very noticeable extent) when compared to SA just stacking the DEX.

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Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you with my suggestion.

Since it can be hard to stack a SATA on a WS, there should be a job ability Thief gets at like 90 that uses both and makes it so they don't get used until you WS. This way, it would be easier to get a SATA off on a weapon skill. Thieves that want to separate the two will still have to work for it, keeping some player skill in the equation.

Yah, At least they're acknowledging a lot of WS's need adjusting... (or at least, said a lot of WS would adjusted)

Part of me feels like they won't do anything to help THF, so this probably won't get updated, but the other part of me has faith they at least want to make the job remotely playable.

Once we finish demystifying Treasure Hunter, their go-to excuse to make THF Mediocre won't quite hold water... Especially if tests stay the course they are now...

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you with my suggestion.

Since it can be hard to stack a SATA on a WS, there should be a job ability Thief gets at like 90 that uses both and makes it so they don't get used until you WS. This way, it would be easier to get a SATA off on a weapon skill. Thieves that want to separate the two will still have to work for it, keeping some player skill in the equation.

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I had always figured some JT that allowed you to SA from any direction with a penalty to damage would be nice.

I think of it less like "Oh i can be lazy now from anywhere" and more like "No more "FU*KING PI** GODDAM**** MOTHER F**KER WHY'D YOU MOVE THE MOVE WHEN I WAS SATA'ING" type of thing.

Like say, Using SA from the sides would impose a 25% penalty to SA mods (i.e instead of 100% DEX mod, you'd only get 75%), and when used from the front, You'd only get 50%.

It would be more of a "The mob turned, but at least i did some damage" not a "LAZY TIME LOL"

Easy fix for SA and TA would be to turn them into a forced crit from any direction, but not give the DEX or AGI bonus if their current activation conditions weren't met.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Easy fix for SA and TA would be to turn them into a forced crit from any direction, but not give the DEX or AGI bonus if their current activation conditions weren't met.

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I like my Idea >:|

But that one is nice too... Would really help some weaponskills, While not breaking some, and its not ridiculously broken.

If THF was reliably able to force Rudra's to crit every ~30 seconds without spending time circling the monster and asking their friends to move closer to it, stop spinning it, etc., it would be a big boost to their damage and a big load off the annoying-ness factor of catering to a THF.

I guess since this topic took off, I'll post my outright opinion rather than trying to explain a bit of reasoning I don't even agree with.

Making some of a job's weapon skills weaker because a job has abilities to enhance weapon skills is fist-fight-over-a-pudding-cup retarded. Especially considering Sneak Attack and Trick Attack are Thief's only damaging abilities.

Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, and Climactic Flourish exist primarily to increase weapon skill damage. Not to make a toned down weapon skill's damage acceptable compared to other options.

At the very least, Rudra's Storm could use an fTP boost at 100% to put on it par with Blade: Hi's fTP. That would maintain Rudra's Storm's synergy with those job abilities, but make the process feel like a reward for using a job ability rather than a punishment for using Rudra's Storm without one.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

"Description: Deals Heavy damage and weighs target down. Chance of Critical hit Varies with TP
Modifiers: 60% DEX
fTP: 5.0"
(While we're at it, do this for Mercy Stroke too, keep Mercy Stroke STR mod though)

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I disagree about Mercy Stroke. Get rid of the hidden 25% Ws damage multiplier they tacked onto it back at lvl 90 (this was a ghetto solution imo) Leave the fTP at 3.0 and change it to accurately reflect the actual number of hits in the animation. Change it to TP = chance of critical hit.

In fact, do this for all relic WS, increase duration and potency of the aftermath and change the double/triple damage proc from 5% to 20%. Weapons with useless/detrimental added effects like poison should also have their added effect changed to something that is actually useful. e.g. plauge effect on Mandau rather than poison (go back and make that change at lvl 75 rather than 95, that was a mistake that should have never existed in the first place)

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I don't know, Maybe I'm a unique THF, I just don't understand why everyone's so comfortable Rudra's being a steaming pile of Mediocre unless its stacked... I don't mind it replacing Evisc, or DE, thats what i want it to do in fact.

I'm sure no WAR complains they don't get to use Raging Rush anymore... No MNK complains Victory Smite out-classes Asuran/Tornado... I would think.

I think a modest boost to Rudra's that would allow it to be more powerful than Evisc/DE unstacked isn't asking too much from SE, It would only server to help THF. Its not going to make THF better than WAR or MNK, But It'll help THF in a small way, which is what it needs.

Again, Like my proposed adjustment above, It would make Rudra's a fierce unstacked WS, but it would not make it any more powerful stacked than it is now. It would keep it useable a lot more often, allowing Thwast THFs to keep up Aftermath without sacrificing damage where applicable.

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Chance of critical hit varies with TP

Damage varies with TP

Pick one, you can't have both. If you get your wish and they make Rudra's a TP=critical WS then you can say goodbye to fTP 3.25~5.25. Extra TP will just gain you an extra 10-15% critical hit rate and you won't be seeing 6k+ Rudras anymore.

Know what would be better than changing Rudras?

An ability that:

Forces a critical hit on the next WS regardless of direction.
Changes STR/Attack relationship to 1:1 on the next WS.
Has a 20 second cooloff and shares it's recast timer with Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

3k Rudra's in Abyssea should make you sad, not jealous. Look at this thread, haha.

If they bumped up Rudra's base fTP by 1 and let it crit hit, I'd only need 1 WS macro.

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All piercing weak peon mobs on that thread. Someone in my LS did over 10k to Ironclad Cleaver with Mercy Stroke. When you take away the *1.5 damage that's still over 7k to an iron giant. (I imagine he must have been using temps and Assassin's Charge to do that though)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Nonsense. VS is still very effective used by a PUP and is far better than the previous best WS

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Smite has effectively 5.25 FTP (2.25+1+1+1) and 60% STR WSC.
Pummel has effectlvely 5.75 FPT (0.75+1+1+1+1+1) and 32% STR 32% VIT WSC.
I wouldn't call that "Far better".

Firstly I'd like to mirror Spankwustler's sentiments, they hit the nail on the head with my argument. SA and TA should make good WS's Great, not Mediocre Weaponskills "Acceptable". The purposeful weakening of our Weaponskills because of those abilities is getting old.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Chance of critical hit varies with TP

Damage varies with TP

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You confuse me Atom! From the first post you quoted I was for "Change it to crit with a high fTP mod".

Later on Byrth suggested a Raise in the fTP to 4.25~4.5 but keep the rest similar (I.E a flat 1.0 increase to fTP across the board), or, an increase to 1.0fTP, Which i also agreed with. So i like both ideas, and either or would work!

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Pick one, you can't have both.

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You can have "Critical hit WS" with "Damage varies with TP". Look at True Strike... "Deals Critical Damage(critical hit 100%). Accuracy Varies with TP". So we could have both, if they made it 100% Crit. Which i do doubt however.

I still think a 5.0fTP Chance of crit WS would not break Rudra's, It'd make it respectable unstacked, but stacked damage would remain the same, in fact 0.25fTP Weaker than it is now at 300%!

But this make indeed be asking a bit too much...

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If you get your wish and they make Rudra's a TP=critical WS then you can say goodbye to fTP 3.25~5.25. Extra TP will just gain you an extra 10-15% critical hit rate and you won't be seeing 6k+ Rudras anymore.

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Speculation! There is no proof to this, its only a pessimistic point of view. Why do you think that a already terribly weak weaponskill unstacked will have to be nerfed in order to make it useful unstacked?

Maybe back in the days of CoP, I'd of agreed with you, But not today. The Dev has some hope...

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Know what would be better than changing Rudras?

An ability that:

Forces a critical hit on the next WS regardless of direction.
Changes STR/Attack relationship to 1:1 on the next WS.
Has a 20 second cooloff and shares it's recast timer with Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.

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those still fall in line with the main problem i try to address with the weaponskil. I do like the general idea though, Very much.

To make it clearer, WAR doesn't need any Job ability active to make ukko's outperform Raging Rush, MNK Vic / Asuran, THF should not need a job ability to make their mediocre DD abilities less mediocre. The job is already bottom of the barrel, Restricting it more and more is just what I'd like to avoid.

I just have faith SE would update the WS and not be Old-team bad. A lot has changed, Increasing Critical hit Damage cap to 100%, increasing Fast cast Cap, etc. A lot of that stuff makes me believe we don't need to sacrifice anything to make this WS useful. It can happen, and its not asking for anything that other jobs don't already have. (Again, aside from the ones already explained)

Also Again, I like your idea, It would actually be pretty well, It still kinda falls in line with the aspect of limiting the abilities, but there is a lot of freedom in it, so i don't hate it at all. However, with Rudra's, It would still need a little fTP boost @ 100% TP to make it useable over Evisc/DE without sacrificing damage on WS for Aftermath.

Thanks for reading!

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

All piercing weak peon mobs on that thread. Someone in my LS did over 10k to Ironclad Cleaver with Mercy Stroke. When you take away the *1.5 damage that's still over 7k to an iron giant. (I imagine he must have been using temps and Assassin's Charge to do that though)

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If it's only *1.5 damage, that means my Ukko's would've normally done 11.5k! While not unbelievable on Visions or Scars mobs, that's pretty hard to believe on high defense mobs like Ironclads.

No, more like *2, and more realistically more like *2.5 considering their defense and the lack of attack that THF gets. I think I read somewhere that it's actually *3 though, which makes that damage pretty sad.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

If it's only *1.5 damage, that means my Ukko's would've normally done 11.5k! While not unbelievable on Visions or Scars mobs, that's pretty hard to believe on high defense mobs like Ironclads.

No, more like *2, and more realistically more like *2.5 considering their defense and the lack of attack that THF gets. I think I read somewhere that it's actually *3 though, which makes that damage pretty sad.

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It's *1.5 to one damage type after it does a WS and *0.5 to all other damage types.

If it were *2 or *3 you would have 15-25k Ukko's when it was in slashing mode. Highest I've ever seen Ukko's on that particular mob is 12kish and this was from someone that averages 6-8k ukkos normally with spikes above 10k sometimes.

As expected.

You cant hide from the truth!

This is my best Ukko's Fury.

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/204/averageukkos.jpg

It's a screenshot so it must be true.

Went back into the BG damage thread and found this as the most recent Ukko vs. Ironclad Smiter SS. Someone else posted an 11k Ukko's to Heqet, so I guess it could be only a factor of 2? Not very important though, honestly, because it's in Abyssea.

It would be nice if Rudra's got a buff. I'm not holding my breath though.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Went back into the BG damage thread and found this as the most recent Ukko vs. Ironclad Smiter SS. Someone else posted an 11k Ukko's to Heqet, so I guess it could be only a factor of 2? Not very important though, honestly, because it's in Abyssea.

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When I see a screencap that falls far outside what is known/tested I just assume it's been faked because it probably has been. 5 minutes with photoshop can create any damage numbers you want.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

When I see a screencap that falls far outside what is known/tested I just assume it's been faked because it probably has been. 5 minutes with photoshop can create any damage numbers you want.

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Okay, well it looks like that guy has been consistently faking his screenshots then. People have posted 11k Ukko's on Glavoid as well. If you look back far enough in the thread, you'll find people telling someone that his 10k Ukko's against Smiter is a joke because the thing takes double damage.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

When I see a screencap that falls far outside what is known/tested I just assume it's been faked because it probably has been. 5 minutes with photoshop can create any damage numbers you want.

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You're right. I've photoshopped this entire thread. Oh, and I photoshopped your opinion too.

I'd prove it to you but It'd be photoshopped as well, So you'll just have to take my Photoshop for it.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

You're right. I've photoshopped this entire thread. Oh, and I photoshopped your opinion too.

I'd prove it to you but It'd be photoshopped as well, So you'll just have to take my Photoshop for it.

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I Photoshopped your Summoner.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

It would be nice if Rudra's got a buff. I'm not holding my breath though.

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I assume things will wither remain the same or change for the worse, in both FFXI and life. Any other outcome is a pleasant surprise that I initially view with suspicion.

It's always worked out really well for FFXI, and better than I'd like to think about for life.

got that right. I just wish both RL and FF had a bit more happy endings and cliches lol