Job Adjustments manifesto Discussion

WAR: Sounds good, they've actually done a very good job with WAR over-all now. The only thing it's really lacking is a half-decent ability to mitigate damage taken.

MNK: Again, sounds like SE knows what they're doing. I would love to see an ability that allows us to AoE Chakra though, including the Regen effect for people with Invigorate merited.

WHM: Still no way to remove Terror or Amnesia? Also, please for the love of God adjust barspells. The status resist spells in particular are border-line useless and almost never work against NMs.

BLM: No word on Meteor yet?

RDM: Sounds pretty good, would still like to see revisions done to it's melee capability though. Access to items like Loki's Kaftan & Oceleot gear (basically any melee gear BLU can also wear) and the inclusion of the EX weaponskills would be nice. A small boost to Sword & Elemental Magic Skill would also be appreciated. Even with all this, RDM would not replace front-line melee jobs, but it would at least be a viable option in the absence of one unlike the way it's been pretty much since launch.

THF: No complaints here.

PLD: How about a new sentinel-like ability that hampers enmity gain for party members (excluding the Paladin)? Since once you're at the enmity cap, there isn't much the PLD can do to save you. Also please consider making Sentinel last 3 minutes like you did with Last Resort for DRK.

DRK: No, no, and just no. Sacrificing TP gain for more damage? We need new dark magic to inflict statuses like Terror and Plague - things that fit DRK thematically but are also practical. Insurgency should really be changed to a critical-hit weaponskill as well, as right now DRK lacks a truly heavy-hitting WS for the first time in ages.

BST: Krabkatoa jug? Pretty please? :3 Seriously though, it'd be nice if we could actually play around with Charm again.

BRD: All very good ideas, no complaints.

RNG: It sounds like SE is finally getting the message - RNG doesn't need more damage, it can already dish out immense pain. The job needs to be able to fly under the radar and it sounds like we're finally getting that long-awaited fix.

SAM: Still no critical WS hmm? Would it be asking too much to get maybe a new job ability to force our next WS to crit?

NIN: I like what you're proposing, but the issue of Shuriken still needs to be addressed, as well as the lack of Jubaku & Dokumori: Ni. Will we ever see these spells? What about San level enfeebles?

DRG: Again kinda hit or miss here. Our last Healing Breath, III, was gotten at level 40. We should be up to at least HB V by now. I'm very happy they're going to buff the wyvern, but I'd also like to see the breath damage bumped up from roughly 1/3 of WS damage to 1/2 (upon WS only, not Smiting Breath)

SMN: Really guys? Cait Sith & Atomos? It's better than nothing, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who was very much hoping for Bahamut & Phoenix, even as Astral-Flow only summons. Rebirth Flame in particular would add so much versatility to SMN, bringing everyone back into the fight to avoid a costly wipe with their 2 hour.

BLU: SPIKE FLAIL!!!

COR: 3 Rolls & Enhancing Phantom Roll? NICE! Just, please don't nerf Chaos Roll...

PUP: Cool stuff, Valoredge frame could stand to be a bit more durable though? An increase to total elemental capacities would be very nice too so we can equip more of the fancier new parts.

DNC: Really like what I'm seeing here, but can we not have the Triple Attack ability be a Flourish? DNC has too many to choose from as it is for powering up weaponskills since they all have shared timers.

SCH: I fully support more SCH-only magic. Is there any chance of increasing Regain's potency though? At 1/tic it's hardly even worth casting. I would also very much like to see either new abilities or magic that allow a SCH to enhance their fellow mage's abilities - that is, if there's a WHM present the SCH can make them more efficient at healing, or increase a BLM's damage potential. SCH tends to work best in tandem with these jobs rather than as a replacement.

Really the only thing I was looking forward to them addressing was RDM's swordplay.


Guess not.

When is SE gonna learn that Bard doesn't need Fencer? RDM kind of does.


Also, Striking Flourish is already stupid, don't make this Triple Attack one any worse.

Look, new attachments are fine, but we're already working with a very wide range of very useful attachments, in an incredibly restricted field. If you're going to keep using attachments as a way to get out of actually making changes to the puppets themselves (barrier module shouldn't be needed to make a puppet that's had a shield built in since day 1 use it) give us more freedom to choose what we want. Give us some more attachment slots, or raise the element capacity on each puppet so we can choose which element we want to focus in.

And Warrior. More offense is good. But we're quickly ending up in the same boat as Rng in terms of paper defense vs big damage. Maybe something that greatly increases enmity, Retaliation rate and damage reduction in exchange for lowered swing speed. More retaliations would make up for slow swings long as we kept hate on ourselves.

Also....

DO NOT: Make this odin-like ability require the use of call beast (especially with an expensive jug). I don't consider being asked to have no pet for up to 5 minutes so I can buff a party an increase in utility. If SE wants to do this, they either need to give us another way to call a pet other than jugs (see my request to have a free pet) - or they need to make this new ability usable while we have a pet out. I don't want to have to nuke my 14K dipper jug pet so I can use some lame ability (yes odin using the smn's two-hour is lame).

Replacing familiar with a buff on a two hour timer would also be sucky. Don't do it.

I'll all for more steal.

Look, I think we're missing something here. Take the manifesto in its entirety. Look at the pictures.

These adjustments and changes are intend to balance out players who each already have two or three empyrean weapons to their name. They're not for the masses.

If you can't manage at least one empyrean weapon, these aren't intended for you. Go level a useful job, n00b.

:[ I was going to post something about emo DRKs being more emo, but I couldn't think of anything clever.

QQ

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Originally Posted by Deadvinta

Really the only thing I was looking forward to them addressing was RDM's swordplay.

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Is this a joke? RDM does have a big problem right now, but lolmelee isn't it. RDM was never intended to be a primarily melee oriented job at high levels and there's no reason to expect that to change.

The primary problem RDM faces in level 90 content is that RDM (and SCH) is no longer a useful healer! The game has been reduced to only one viable healer job and SE shows no indication of whether they even intended that to be the case. For both RDM and SCH, not a good enough healer + bad selection of yellow procs = unwanted job. Their unique spells are insignificant, or at least unappreciated.

Maybe, if the post-90 endgame doesn't have the enormous HP pools of abyssea, Cure IV will stop being junk, but even so, the fact that you have the same top heal as a BLM or BRD doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

There's no discussion (explicitly at least) of whether SE wants any job other than WHM to be able to heal effectively, or what plans they have to make that possible again at higher levels the way it was at 75.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Look, I think we're missing something here. Take the manifesto in its entirety. Look at the pictures.

These adjustments and changes are intend to balance out players who each already have two or three empyrean weapons to their name. They're not for the masses.

If you can't manage at least one empyrean weapon, these aren't intended for you. Go level a useful job, n00b.

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In that case these job adjustments are for the severely mentally handicapped, as there is NO SITUATION where you should be using 5/5 AF3+2 for anything on any job other than MNK, BLM, and SMN.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Every other Flourish category has 3 members, and it makes a lot of sense to me at least to put a DA force and a TA force in the same category as they're pretty similar abilities. It is isn't like you can both DA and TA on your next hit anyway, and the two current flourishes in Flourishes III are mutually exclusive (don't stack with each other or, oddly, sneak attack).

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I follow your logic but wouldn't that make the DA flourish pointless? I know you can enhance it with gear but is that gonna make it useable over a forced triple attack? I'm not trying to argue I'm just actually curious since I'm not a DNC expert.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I follow your logic but wouldn't that make the DA flourish pointless? I know you can enhance it with gear but is that gonna make it useable over a forced triple attack? I'm not trying to argue I'm just actually curious since I'm not a DNC expert.

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Well, it could break down like this:
Climactic Flourish: 100% Crit hit, +20% damage
Striking Flourish: 50% Crit hit, DA
TA Flourish: 0% Crit hit, TA

Whether Striking or the TA Flourish would ever get any use is debatable. Before the past update, the only Flourishes III worth using was Striking for DNCs with Rudra's, and it was just barely worth using over spamming slightly more Eviscerations. The TA Flourish has almost no chance of being useful to us in any way. If they put it on a 30 second timer and had it consume 2 Finishing moves, I'd still never use it.

Very careful balancing could give each one of the Flourishes its own special little niche, but realistically Flourishes III is a wash for anyone but Twashtar or Daka DNCs, and even those DNCs would only be using two of the flourishes. The TA Flourish might be useful for, like, Terpsichore Dancers outside Abyssea, but they'd really likely be better off with Climactic.

The ability to change the damage type of a weapon is by far the strongest example ability, being a 25-50% boost to damage on many mob types. Since warrior is already at the top of the DD food chain, implementing that would be devastating to all the other DD jobs.

The example DRK abilities are terrible. Lowering tp gain is a bad thing, and taking more damage to deal more damage with elemental weaponskills is by far the worst of all of them.

I hate to say it but lolPup is quickly becoming lolDrk. We got shafted on Quietus, now they want us to use elemental WS? Come on SE do you hate dark knights that much? The TP for DoT seems like a bad idea as well, now days mobs live for only 30secs or so...

I think SE wants DRK to not exist anymore or they have plans for mobs that take 80x damage to elemental weaponskills, but we know that's not true.

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Is this a joke?

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No it's not. This is a joke. If SE is going to advertise it, they should back it up as well.

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RDM does have a big problem right now, but lolmelee isn't it. RDM was never intended to be a primarily melee oriented job at high levels and there's no reason to expect that to change.

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Context is important. In HNM content, I agree with you. In almost everything else, I don't. Red Mage is a job that enhances melee and other traits through magic. This includes however, our own. It is an integral (and advertised) part of the job, and the dangling of high end weapons and certain melee pieces in front of this class, without a utility to use it in more situations, is very frustrating to a good portion of the job's populace, regardless of the language they speak.

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The primary problem RDM faces in level 90 content is that RDM (and SCH) is no longer a useful healer! The game has been reduced to only one viable healer job and SE shows no indication of whether they even intended that to be the case. For both RDM and SCH, not a good enough healer + bad selection of yellow procs = unwanted job. Their unique spells are insignificant, or at least unappreciated.

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1. As far as Solo healing, I agree with you. However, in the case that more than one job is present, RDM(Sch) + DNC(Rdm,Sch) is often adequate on everything but, *gasp* HNM level mobs. And then, in Abyssea, there's brew.

2. Abyssea is not the end all, be all of the Game. If Voidwatch is any indication RDM still has its uses, even in support healing, in what seems to be a trend they're trying to make with that event. However, they're pretty clearly stating they want us to emphasis more on our more defining traits.

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Maybe, if the post-90 endgame doesn't have the enormous HP pools of abyssea, Cure IV will stop being junk, but even so, the fact that you have the same top heal as a BLM or BRD doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

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Shouldn't these jobs have their defining traits emphasized first, and become a mock-healer second? Red Mage should be the enhancer/enfeebler they attempt to describe here, especially for HNMs. There are more than enough ways to mock up healing duties with current healing capacities. Not that I'm saying we should never get Cure V, far from it. But the viability of us as a healer should not be the primary concern for neither Red Mage, nor Scholar.

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There's no discussion (explicitly at least) of whether SE wants any job other than WHM to be able to heal effectively, or what plans they have to make that possible again at higher levels the way it was at 75.

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Because I think it's pretty clear they want White Mage to be unquestionably the go-to healer. And when looking for substitutes, you should be looking to divide the role between jobs that can heal, to get a more equivalent performance.

Elemental Magic is an advertised portion of the Dark Knight job.

Works out pretty well for them.

Sup Occult Acumen.

The Dark Knight suggested adjustments are the biggest slap in the face I think any job has ever seen, and that is saying a lot. Please let SE consider this garbage with feedback.

Well it looks like they STILL don't really have a strong footed direction for Dragoons...I swear they are on the last of the list...Oh and the only way to make the Wyvern last longer SE is to give it Magic Damage Taken -75% trait (Occ. Absorbs dmg failed on our helm)

And like mentioned already if you give us some weaker rehash of a spell for SCH's "Tabla Rasa" only spell, I'm gonna rage all over these forums, and through the process create a Crimson Grimoire! (joking aside, please just give us Mighty Guard and Ultima for the 2hr; thanks!)

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The Dark Knight suggested adjustments are the biggest slap in the face I think any job has ever seen, and that is saying a lot. Please let SE consider this garbage with feedback.

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The only thing about this Elemental WS business I can think of is that in the "Refinements to Weapon Skills" they're going to give Elemental Weaponskills a gigantic buff. That's the only way this makes sense to me.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Well it looks like they STILL don't really have a strong footed direction for Dragoons...I swear they are on the last of the list...Oh and the only way to make the Wyvern last longer SE is to give it Magic Damage Taken -75% trait (Occ. Absorbs dmg failed on our helm)

And like mentioned already if you give us some weaker rehash of a spell for SCH's "Tabla Rasa" only spell, I'm gonna rage all over these forums, and through the process create a Crimson Grimoire! (joking aside, please just give us Mighty Guard and Ultima for the 2hr; thanks!)

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Oh sh--

I just thought of something.

Comet.

Oh if that's true, the rage from the BLMs.

<No thanks!>

Although, I hate to say it, it's probably true....

Sadly, it makes "S.E.nce"

BST summoning pets like SMN's 2hr gimmicks, only, it wont be their 2hr and probably they will get Bahamuth before SMN just to troll us more.

Joke aside... its not funny. Hope we get more details on all the adjustments cuz these statements doesnt sound very prommissing as we get close to the magnus opus of leveling in the Final Fantasy lore. tho its nice to have a word from SE stating "we kinda are working on it"

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Elemental Magic is an advertised portion of the Dark Knight job.

Works out pretty well for them.

Sup Occult Acumen.

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Maybe if our elemental nukes from our limited mp pool was on par w/ a blms, but right now a naked rdm could out nuke us. What we need is a FAST high damage dark-based spell and a job ability to make our next WS crit.

On a serious note, does anyone remember 2010's Job Vision dealie? They implemented maybe half of what was on there, and went completely opposite directions for the rest. None of it is set in stone, nor does it reflect any sort of Job Adjustments that are currently in development.

Exhibit A: Monk was slated to get "An ability which would allow them to knock the target off guard after evading an attack" or something similar. What'd we get instead? Impetus. Which rocks. Hardcore.

Honestly, I'm happy with the notes as a whole, since they reflect that the Dev team is taking the Support aspect of Red Mage more seriously. There's little point in being the best enfeebler in the game when high level NMs are straight up immune to enfeebles (sup Requiem syndrome). Dark Knight ideas look terrible, but they don't constitute an actual update yet so I wouldn't worry too much.

Edit: Drk doesn't need crits. Abyssea is over. Last Resort update was awesome. Etc.

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What we need is a FAST high damage dark-based spell and a job ability to make our next WS crit.

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What if this JA + Adjustments would make your next Elemental WS do the on-par damage with a WS you force-crit? I mean, this is expecting much out of SE, mind you, but would you accept it if that was the case?

I think SE's trying not to over-duplicate mechanics here, but reach the same goals through different methods.

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Originally Posted by Zoner

Maybe if our elemental nukes from our limited mp pool was on par w/ a blms, but right now a naked rdm could out nuke us. What we need is a FAST high damage dark-based spell and a job ability to make our next WS crit.

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I agree with you, as no doubt do most Drks. But SE apparently has never played DRK, or plays it and casts Aero III for 200 damage and weapon skills with Infernal Scythe for 350. Apparently they think that is awesome and needs to be buffed so Aero III does 250 and Infernal Scythe does 400. This has been going on for years with DRK. I hoped with the advent of the forums they would see the balance issues, but they are just making them worse. Buffing SAM and WAR again?

The Beastmaster ability to call forth pets with characteristic abilities sounds like one of the rewards I listed for Chocobo Derby (yes, shameless plug.):

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Originally Posted by AyinDygra

They act like normal spells and can be used/cast with or without avatars/pets present.

* Ranger could get limited access to these creatures through a non-MP Job Ability called "Forest Friends" to call random weaker versions of: Sylph, Ixion, Unicorn, Moogle, Yeti, Choco & Mog, White Chocobo. They would never know which one they'd get, but it could be influenced by the zone they're in.
~ Sylph: (Midnight Dance: Heals the party's HP.)
~ Ixion: (Rampant Stance: Physical AoE damage, can inflict Weight, Stun, Aspir)
~ Unicorn: (Grace of Hera: AoE Esuna on party with regen)
~ Moogle: (Moogle Dance: Restores some HP to all pets in the party)
~ Yeti: (Moogle Toss: Throws his moogle at the enemy.)
~ Choco & Mog: (Chocobo and Mog Super Double Jump Kick: Two physical jump attacks, TP given to Ranger.)
~ White Chocobo: (Chocobo Recharge: Restores a little MP to the party)

* Beastmaster could have a method to call on some of these with "Nature's Wrath"! Similar selection to Ranger, with different effects in battle, geared toward damage:
~ Sylph: (Lethe Arrows: Ranged attack, knockback, chance for Bind and Amnesia)
~ Ixion: (Trample: Physical AoE damage, can dispel)
~ Moogle: (Mog Bomb: AoE moderate fire damage)
~ Yeti: (Cold Shoulder: Shoulder Slam with chance to stun, deals Ice elemental damage)
~ Choco & Mog: (Stampede: Mog rides the lead chocobo (replaced by your personal chocobo registered to your whistle) of a flock that run through dealing multiple physical attacks. Mog gets knocked off and uses "Mog Flash" that can blind the enemy, then runs away.)

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Sounds like only Beastmaster will be getting it though.

Shameless plug or shameless plug?

Regardless, the Bst changes paired with an adjustment to Familiar just seem to me like an Odin/Alexander type ability for BST if they choose to use Familiar without a pet summoned.

And these job adjustments barely scratch the surface of our ambitious plans! Expect to see the following alterations and improvements as well.


Extras
•Additional Planned Adjustments

•Weapon skill refinements

•Adjustments to enfeebling magic

•Revisions to job-specific merit point enhancement attributes.

Did no one read this, suprised to see so much complaining in the thread, when everything could end up being better then what any of us envision. Their Vision of each jobs role is more exciting then any of their proposed changes or additions thus far.

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Originally Posted by Finuve

as some one in the DRK forums put it, SE is trolling us

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On behalf of all Red Mages...welcome to the club? >.>;;

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Read the opening comment about RDM and thought SE had put the BRD description in the wrong place:

"Support specialists who excel at transforming their allies from mere mortals into demigods with their enhancements."

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This a thousand times over. Part of me keeps hoping that's an editing error. Would have been nice if they acknowledged any of the discussions on our forums, too.

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Originally Posted by Habiki

And these job adjustments barely scratch the surface of our ambitious plans! Expect to see the following alterations and improvements as well.


Extras
•Additional Planned Adjustments

•Weapon skill refinements

•Adjustments to enfeebling magic

•Revisions to job-specific merit point enhancement attributes.

Did no one read this, suprised to see so much complaining in the thread, when everything could end up being better then what any of us envision. Their Vision of each jobs role is more exciting then any of their proposed changes or additions thus far.

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So I can look forward to my Infernal Scythe dmg going from 400 to 500dmg? woot woot..

No. I think you meant to say "On behalf of a few very vocal Red Mages."

On behalf of the Red Mages who excel in their spellcasting roles and like it that way, Thank Altana.

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Originally Posted by Zoner

So I can look forward to my Infernal Scythe dmg going from 400 to 500dmg? woot woot..

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No you can look foward to all your weaponskills getting a boost. Just because theres a new ability that raises the amount of damage the dark knight takes, but also raises the amount of magic and elemental weapon skill damage it deals, doesn't mean you should only use infernal scythe now to make the most of the new JA.

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Originally Posted by Habiki

No you can look foward to all your weaponskills getting a boost. Just because theres a new ability that raises the amount of damage the dark knight takes, but also raises the amount of magic and elemental weapon skill damage it deals, doesn't mean you should only use infernal scythe now to make the most of the new JA.

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So I can look forward to my Shadow of Death dmg going from 150 to 200dmg? woot woot..

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There fixed it, happy?

All told, think the developers nailed it allmost perfect. Top DD jobs are top DD jobs, support roles stay support roles, etc.

Pup, well looks like making the whm pup good for anything beyond status removal, giving Harly and rdm spells beyone level 50 and 72 are still out, can't really see a justification but I'm sure there is one, just not a rational one.

Pld it looks like they still want it to be a tank and they are giving it some tools to deal with how game balance has become totally screwed, not sure they'll be adequate but at least it's an attempt.

Rng, this stuff has needed to happen for years! Some hate control! Assume they'll get some benefit from the damage calc changes that were announced for all jobs.

Drg, not sure, they say they'll do something about how wyvern is so easily 1-2 shot, but the most obvious one-giving it some defense-doesn't appear on the menu.

Bst-ok, I got issues here. Uber pets that do an Odin? What about the call beast timer, because they'll probably be on it. So we get one super move and then for 4:57 (- whatever u got in merits) we are without a pet at all? A bst without a pet is known as a gimp warrior, and soon becomes a corpse.

Brd-Requiem is going to work again? excuse me, I have to go change my pants...

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

Bst-ok, I got issues here. Uber pets that do an Odin? What about the call beast timer, because they'll probably be on it. So we get one super move and then for 4:57 (- whatever u got in merits) we are without a pet at all? A bst without a pet is known as a gimp warrior, and soon becomes a corpse.

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Yeah.... sounds like fun

and by fun, I mean suckage

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Originally Posted by Nebo

THF - If Steal/Aurasteal/Despoil recast timers aren't seperated and lowered to start with there is no point in wasting update resources on these. They will still be useless.

The success rate of steal/despoil is not the issue. It is not even the point. The problem with these abilities is that they are useless, poorly designed, and mashed together in a way that makes no logical sense.

Aside from the fact that steal/despoil don't work on NM's or most worthwhile endgame content, there are a total two things worth stealing in the entire game. Increasing the success rate of Steal is not going to address this.

But if you are increasing the success rate of steal with TH, Aurasteal NEEDS to be a seperate ability. If not, dispelling enemies that have useless (I cannot stress this enough) items to steal will become very difficult. But again, Aurasteal should have never been attached to Steal from the start. Stealing an enhancment effect should have never had anything to do with stealing an item. It is simply absurd.

No amount of increasing the success rate for Despoil is going to fix that ability if you don't address what is wrong with it. Inflicting enfeebling effects should have nothing to do with stealing USELESS (are we getting this yet?) items. Despoil should seek to steal the enfeebling effect it inflicts, not items. If Despoil is going to be made useful at all, it needs to be specific. This variable enfeeble that it inflicts now is of no use to anyone. It doesn't work on anything worthwhile, it inflicts effects that have no use whatsoever to the monster type you are fighting (Hello Magic Attack down on mobs that don't use magigc YAY!). Despoil was a complete waste of multiple update resources. Upping its success rate is not going to fix it. Don't waste your time.

More party only restrictions on job abilities....more useless enmity manipulation garbage....more giving away everything that is unique to THF.

GG, SE. GG.

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This sums up my feelings about the thief changes pretty well.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

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Oh sh--

I just thought of something.

Comet.

Oh if that's true, the rage from the BLMs.

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i thought of Ultima

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Originally Posted by Duelle

On behalf of all Red Mages...welcome to the club? >.>;;
This a thousand times over. Part of me keeps hoping that's an editing error. Would have been nice if they acknowledged any of the discussions on our forums, too.

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you mean all the troll that ask rdm to become mele job?
a

The BST ability has potential but only if executed properly. Infact, the quick pets only make sense if you can call them along side your normal pet much like NPCs can.

If you can use these super pets in addition to your jugpet/charmed ally then BST just got a DPS bump so long as the damage isn't terrible. Being able to call out a large pet to deal some damage then vanish like avatars has potential.

I know alot of people complain about Charm getting no love but at this point it makes more sense to make better jugpets, make Sic/Ready quit sucking (the TP attacks are pathetic) and work on improving BST DPS through the pet.

If every 76+ jugpet had an aura effect, that'd be even more inline with giving the job utility.