Puppetmaster Demand Thread

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Originally Posted by Annalise

With the new testing of how the heat sink works, this would be pretty remarkable.

In fact for anyone who is having burden problems, I suggest you A) attach the heat sink if you don't have it already to ANY frame you are using, and B) learn how it works.

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Way to completely miss the OP.

Shinron is tossing the idea that there should be a way to set maneuvers as using them breaks the natural flow of fighting and therefore reduces the amount DPS.

If it wasn't for the long animation and delay after or a way to set maneuvers quick i.e separating timers or add a JA/attachment that creates a extended duration maneuvers.

I could see an JA/Attachment like "Regulator/ion" that could induce master/automation slow for the tradeoff of extended maneuvers. That would balance the increased DPS from master and the devs happy for not overpowering a job.

I, myself like the 3 timers for Maneuvers. Add my overload gear, bang out 3 maneuvers, deploy, gear swap back to DD gear etc and go to it. Rinse repeat.

Overloading would be MY problem to control. And I like the post about 3 of the same would still take the same amount of time.


That would make it so that pup could possibly be involved in more end game activities.

Halldir from Odin

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Originally Posted by Kristal

You can do that already. For example on Spiritreaver, you could Dark > Water > Ice (as soon as Absorb-INT begins) > Ice > Ice (while nuke is casting). The first 3 maneuvers take 20 seconds, but with my suggestion it would only be 2 seconds, but the last two still take another 20 seconds either way.

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I was talking in terms of your suggestion, not with how it is currently. So currently it cannot be done because there is the ten second delay between the water and wind/ice. I know you can throw water in the mix like that because I throw one in once in awhile on Sharpshot and never overload spamming three wind. (Wind, Wind, Wind, wears -> Water, Wind, Wind, Wind, etc.)

I was saying with your suggestion it would be even better because you would have less time with [Water, Wind, Wind] and more time with [Wind, Wind, Wind] while still getting the benefit of heat sink.

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Originally Posted by Halldir

Way to completely miss the OP.

Shinron is tossing the idea that there should be a way to set maneuvers as using them breaks the natural flow of fighting and therefore reduces the amount DPS.

If it wasn't for the long animation and delay after or a way to set maneuvers quick i.e separating timers or add a JA/attachment that creates a extended duration maneuvers.

I could see an JA/Attachment like "Regulator/ion" that could induce master/automation slow for the tradeoff of extended maneuvers. That would balance the increased DPS from master and the devs happy for not overpowering a job.

I, myself like the 3 timers for Maneuvers. Add my overload gear, bang out 3 maneuvers, deploy, gear swap back to DD gear etc and go to it. Rinse repeat.

Overloading would be MY problem to control. And I like the post about 3 of the same would still take the same amount of time.


That would make it so that pup could possibly be involved in more end game activities.

Halldir from Odin

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Did you even read the OP? Did you see the nice bold Decrease in Burden Generated by Maneuvers (overload)?

Obviously that suggest (perhaps because of the alternator, or because people don't understand burden) that the OP or others are complaining about overload and that there is too much burden. I have an alternator and have yet to actually overload with it, while spamming ice and water maneuvers depending on frame. Why? Because I can effectively deal with burden.

I suggested using the heatsink because it makes burden decay faster.

Sorry for answering something that someone seems to be having a problem with?

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Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP

Actually I've been working on my mage set build recently and I can get refresh +8 via armor and (Refresh) spell and 1180 MP with /RDM and MP gear... Square Enix has been giving us a lot of mage gear, and I don't do so bad main healing delve pts with WHM pet and my MP build, so I wouldn't mind seeing more mage type armor, if they really intend for us to use mage sub jobs... Adding us to mage armor might have been a spoof too though lol.

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Originally Posted by Leatherman

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...ntin_Taj_2.jpg
Please give the Refresh to Master as well on this piece. For a half mage build. I would much appreciate it :D

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Sorry that other reply was meant to leatherman

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Originally Posted by Kristal

It's 40 seconds for 3 maneuvers, since the first starts at 0, not 10.

Splitting maneuvers into their own recast would probably be the easiest and most effective. You could set up 3 maneuvers in 2 seconds, as long as they are different ones. Stacking 3 same ones would still take 20 seconds.

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Ok I must admit, I'm kind of a wishful thinker so what if they made manuevers 3 second recast and seperated the recast of all manuevers? I believe that would absolutely solve the problem of manuevers being a hindrance during battle because like Halldir said, if we could just throw up 3 manuevers quickly before battle then focus on fighting instead of having to add manuevers during battle, it would make playing puppetmaster a lot easier while also increasing dps. I don't think this would make Puppetmaster overpowered, it would just fix a issue that is long overdue for fixing. It would allow us to adapt to things during battle instantaneously
EX) A monster begins casting thundaga III? You can throw up at least 2 water manuevers before he gets the spell off to reduce damage then switch back to whatever manuevers you were using previously

EX) Your pet has up three fire manuevers but has 100TP and you need him to use armor shatterer (Wind Manuevers)... Well you can throw up 2 wind manuevers quickly instead of watching your pet use arcuballista and /facepalm afterwords

EX Your pet just erased all your wind manuevers you had up with replicator and you're trying to keep three up for barrage turbine? Well instead ot taking 20~30 seconds to get all three back up, it only takes 6~9 seconds.

There are clearly more battle advantages to having 3 second manuever recast than vs 10 seconds... and having a seperate recast for all manuevers would just make life even better.

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Originally Posted by Annalise

Did you even read the OP? Did you see the nice bold Decrease in Burden Generated by Maneuvers (overload)?

Obviously that suggest (perhaps because of the alternator, or because people don't understand burden) that the OP or others are complaining about overload and that there is too much burden. I have an alternator and have yet to actually overload with it, while spamming ice and water maneuvers depending on frame. Why? Because I can effectively deal with burden.

I suggested using the heatsink because it makes burden decay faster.

Sorry for answering something that someone seems to be having a problem with?

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Just to make things clear and to create a disclaimer, All of the bullet points I created in my previous post are nothing that I am necesarily concerned about and have absolutely no connection to my point I made about reducing recast/duration of manuevers. I only talked about them because they are problems that are Puppetmasters have mentioned throughout the forums that they would like to have fixed whether that was before or after fixes from updates. Clearly overload is not an issue because of cooldown, but it is still an existing factor that makes puppetmaster play at a lower level than we could. If it wasn't an existing problem, people would be using manuevers willy nilly whenever they wanted.

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Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP

Just to make things clear and to create a disclaimer, All of the bullet points I created in my previous post are nothing that I am necesarily concerned about and have absolutely no connection to my point I made about reducing recast/duration of manuevers. I only talked about them because they are problems that are Puppetmasters have mentioned throughout the forums that they would like to have fixed whether that was before or after fixes from updates. Clearly overload is not an issue because of cooldown, but it is still an existing factor that makes puppetmaster play at a lower level than we could. If it wasn't an existing problem, people would be using manuevers willy nilly whenever they wanted.

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I knew it wasn't necessarily yours. That's why I said you or others.

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Originally Posted by Annalise

I knew it wasn't necessarily yours. That's why I said you or others.

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Ops... That's my mistake then because I misread :) . I just see many people making comments on the bullet points I made that seem to be directly asking me why I would want these changes and I guess I get a little defensive hehe.

But with that said, a lot of the suggested ideas from other PUPs aren't always necessarily bad ones (and btw this isn't directed at you Annalise). Everyone is usually quick to hate something until it's implemented into the game, like the increase in level cap from 75 to 99 (I can't tell you how controversial that was until it actually happened). Even if they do something silly like adding pup to Asuran Fists (Oh ya they already did) or adding PUP to relic, its not like it will end the game or have a negative effect. Take what you get and make the best of it. If they give PUP Spharai (Monk Relic), well god damn it... It's time to /MNK and counterstance some shit. Lets not waste our time in the forums bickering at each other like what we have to say is stupid or not worth while. We wouldn't post it if we didn't truely believe it could help. Let the dev team be the deciders of what should and should not be implemented... We're just here to make suggestions so that we can get one step closer to getting PUP to where it really needs to be.

As for new frames, I'm not sure what they come up with (useful).

I do agree with Deifact:

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Originally Posted by Deifact

I played PUP a few years ago but I'd love to get peoples opinion:
Why can't PUP maneuvers just be constant? So if you activate the automaton, use wind maneuver three times, assuming the automaton doesn't consume those maneuvers would it be overpowered for them to simply remain until overwritten/automaton despawns?

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I'm sure people will agree with me when I say you have to play the job from 1~75 to be able to understand the job good enough to be efficient, only then you can talk about it. I will be honest when I say I don't know much about a few jobs like my Lv18 DRG or jobs that are under the subjob lvl cap. But PUP has been one of my most used jobs since it's release. I like PUP/DNC for abyssea PUP/WHM for Reive, PUP/WAR for Delve (Now with New Weapons and Alternator!), I want to actually lvl DRG to 50 so I can use PUP/DRG and get an extra 5% Haste from earring and Jump for extra damage.

Shinron-PUP has a good point:

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Originally Posted by Shinron-PUP

Ok I must admit, I'm kind of a wishful thinker so what if they made manuevers 3 second recast and seperated the recast of all manuevers? I believe that would absolutely solve the problem of manuevers being a hindrance during battle because like Halldir said, if we could just throw up 3 manuevers quickly before battle then focus on fighting instead of having to add manuevers during battle, it would make playing puppetmaster a lot easier while also increasing dps. I don't think this would make Puppetmaster overpowered, it would just fix a issue that is long overdue for fixing. It would allow us to adapt to things during battle instantaneously
EX) A monster begins casting thundaga III? You can throw up at least 2 water manuevers before he gets the spell off to reduce damage then switch back to whatever manuevers you were using previously

EX) Your pet has up three fire manuevers but has 100TP and you need him to use armor shatterer (Wind Manuevers)... Well you can throw up 2 wind manuevers quickly instead of watching your pet use arcuballista and /facepalm afterwords

EX Your pet just erased all your wind manuevers you had up with replicator and you're trying to keep three up for barrage turbine? Well instead ot taking 20~30 seconds to get all three back up, it only takes 6~9 seconds.

There are clearly more battle advantages to having 3 second manuever recast than vs 10 seconds... and having a seperate recast for all manuevers would just make life even better.

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Would be nice if there would be a way to reduce the cooldown on a few abilities like Tactical Switch, I rather my pet using my tp sometimes to increase damage, or change AF3+2 Boots to instead of increasing the TP to reduce cooldown instead:
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...e-Scarpe-2.png

Another ability could use a change is Overdrive, Manuevers cooldown should be removed during this time and shorten attachment cooldown such as Stoneskin, Strobe, Flashbulb, etc...; for the trade of shorter length Buff. Right now I see no use for Overdrive.

Pup is a recently acquired favorite job of mine ^___^

I'd like to chime in about new heads/frames-
*Disclaimer these ideas may be just wild pipe dreams and not feasible to implement, but fun to think about nevertheless*

I'm satisfied with the current mage head/frame selection, I'd like to see some variety in the melee area-
Frames:
Dual wield dagger frame with some attachment ideas (just imagine a frame with pink ruffly fabric!.... kidding... mostly):
Samba attachment(s): Aspir, drain, and tp samba (would extend to party members as well)
Waltz attachments(s): Curing, healing
Treasure hunter attachment: max of TH3 (based on maneuvers up)
I think these would cover the basics of Thief and Dnc at a subjob level without making them too powerful.

Hand to hand frame:
would be similar to current valoredge frame in terms of available attachments, but with an emphasis on attack over defense, and would deal blunt damage (and potentially open up fun skillchains with master)

Mime frame (crazy idea maybe):
Similar to mime from Final Fantasy 5, you'd gain the ability to mimic whatever the last action the puppetmaster did, sacrificing the ability to equip most non-passive attachments.

Head idea- something fun with a headband that would go along with the frames mentioned above, and open up new pup weaponskills.

And for my really out there idea (and I do mean out there)-
Completely new automatons, that would lack the flexibility of the traditional model, and be restricted to very few attachments, but would make up for the customizability in raw strength or tanking capabilities.... such as miniature iron giant type automatons, arcoliths, even cardians. Essentially various arcane mobs we have seen before that beastmaster cannot charm or summon with a jug.

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Originally Posted by Vivivivi

Pup is a recently acquired favorite job of mine ^___^

I'd like to chime in about new heads/frames-
*Disclaimer these ideas may be just wild pipe dreams and not feasible to implement, but fun to think about nevertheless*

I'm satisfied with the current mage head/frame selection, I'd like to see some variety in the melee area-
Frames:
Dual wield dagger frame with some attachment ideas (just imagine a frame with pink ruffly fabric!.... kidding... mostly):
Samba attachment(s): Aspir, drain, and tp samba (would extend to party members as well)
Waltz attachments(s): Curing, healing
Treasure hunter attachment: max of TH3 (based on maneuvers up)
I think these would cover the basics of Thief and Dnc at a subjob level without making them too powerful.

Hand to hand frame:
would be similar to current valoredge frame in terms of available attachments, but with an emphasis on attack over defense, and would deal blunt damage (and potentially open up fun skillchains with master)

Mime frame (crazy idea maybe):
Similar to mime from Final Fantasy 5, you'd gain the ability to mimic whatever the last action the puppetmaster did, sacrificing the ability to equip most non-passive attachments.

Head idea- something fun with a headband that would go along with the frames mentioned above, and open up new pup weaponskills.

And for my really out there idea (and I do mean out there)-
Completely new automatons, that would lack the flexibility of the traditional model, and be restricted to very few attachments, but would make up for the customizability in raw strength or tanking capabilities.... such as miniature iron giant type automatons, arcoliths, even cardians. Essentially various arcane mobs we have seen before that beastmaster cannot charm or summon with a jug.

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I absolutely love the new Frame/Head ideas, especially Monk pet. I think Monk pet would kind of finish off the much needed DD frame that we've been asking for (it really should be harliquin). Just to estrapolate a little bit more on the Mime Frame you were talking about, I imagine it would be much like the movie "Real Steel" with Hugh Jackman in it where your pet is just a shadow of the Puppetmaster, If you Stringing Pummel, He will also stringing Pummel and possibly mirror all attacks and damage... So essentially you're doing double damage with everything. If this was actually done, using manuevers wouldn't be necessary to manipulate the pet, the pet would be simply be like dragoon pet where you don't deploy or retrieve, it just attacks what you do... The more I think about it, the more I love the idea because I think we need different types of pets, some in which do not require any manipulation to make it function properly, and some that do... Mime pet could be our MNK pet if he literally mimic'd the Master, and it would take away the need to use manuevers which ultimately lowers our DPS during battle (It would be a true/pure fighting frame).

I also do believe that a Drain Samba attachment would be fantastic for soloing with Ranger and PLD frame so that there's less emphasis on cannibal blade and repair as measures to keep them alive... I think a lot of the frames you proposed are doable, SE clearly can do a lot of things when they put their mind to it, but it comes down to this question: Is it necessary? Square Enix's mentality for a lot of things is that, if it is working fine, it doesn't need to be fixed. They probably think this way about Puppetmaster... The job is finally good and really doesn't need much more, but I believe just like Summoner, we're a job that is entitled to new pets whether they like it or not... Every 10 levels we were given a new one and if they were to follow the pattern, we're missing 4~5 new pets.