Small world hope you enjoyed my little town lucky the heat broke lol.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
Thoughts on the FFXI Job Adjustment Manifesto
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10-20-2011, 04:04 AMHimuraKenshyn
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10-20-2011, 04:47 AMBabekekeWiki says Austin, Texas has a population of 797,390... if it were in the UK that would make it the 3rd most populated city (after London, then Birmingham, unless I missed one). Just shows how perspectives differ, eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by HimuraKenshyn
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10-20-2011, 12:14 PMAgetos
i love living in austin, not too many people, and not too few. plus there's always a chance you'll run in to something strange. Those of you who have been here might have heard of leslie the hobo lol.
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10-27-2011, 03:17 PMZhronne
So, was anybody expecting the SCH fix (the one currently on the test server) to be released live with tuesday's patch?
I wonder when we'll see it. Compared to the past, this time they're taking more time to release content on live severs from the first time it appeared on test servers. -
10-27-2011, 09:57 PMRaksha
Yeah I figured they'd toss it in there but they didnt. Guess we'll have to wait a while longer.
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10-28-2011, 01:07 PMMerton9999
I thought so too, and now there's a post apologizing for the delay of items planned for October, and it doesn't even list the SCH changes. Oh well, I have mixed feelings about them anyway.
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10-28-2011, 04:14 PMZhronne
That post apologizes for the delay in the release of new content on the TEST SERVER, it's not about live servers at all.
But still yeah, the fixes to those 3 jobs have been on the test server for quite some time, it was definitely expected for them to include them in tuesday's patch. -
10-28-2011, 07:56 PMZhronne
Unless there's a typo it seems the new Test Server patch finalized the Helix changes and tweaked a bit more our Regen:
1) Potency furtherly increased (o.O wow?)
2) Lenght shortened (Q____Q)
Number 2 was totally un-necessary... hope it won't be a huge difference.
Helix changes are kinda meh, people using /SCH will get 60 seconds Helixes.
I think this applies only to /SCH and to SCHs not using Dark Arts.
Because a level 95 SCH using Dark Arts should see an even longer lasting time than 90 seconds, right?
Edit:
Yes, according to THIS post I'm right. -
10-28-2011, 08:12 PMSasaraixx
I'm losing faith . . .
Unless the boost to Regen is substantial this isn't helpful at all. Having the duration last a long time was important given the casting time of the spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gildrein
I really have no idea what they are doing with Helices. Where is the boost SCH main is supposed to get from Dark Arts? It sounds to me like some jobs can still cast these spells more effectively than the main job it was intended for. -
10-28-2011, 08:14 PMSasaraixxAre you sure? The post only mentions job level. That could just mean your main job level and not SCH job level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhronne
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10-28-2011, 08:24 PMZhronne
The way I got their announcement is:
- SCHs levelling up will see their helixes have different lasting times. Up to level 39 just 30 seconds, up to 59 => 60 seconds, then from level 60 onwards 90 seconds.
- A level 99 job going /SCH will have its helixes last 60 seconds (30 seconds less than live servers?)
- SCH main using Dark Arts will receive a further bonus to potency and lasting time of their helixes (see the post I linked in my earlier post, those changes supposedly apply to SCH main only)
Have no clue about the "dark arts buff to helixes", I didn't test them myself on the test server last time, only tested the Regen/LightArts stuff. -
10-28-2011, 08:56 PMKaisha
New test server update shows further tweaks to the Regen.
Done naked, using Regen IV:
Old Test Server - 46hp/tic 150s Duration
Current Test Server - 54hp/tic 112s Duration -
10-28-2011, 09:10 PMDaniel_HatcherStill rather disappointing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisha
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10-28-2011, 09:24 PMZhronne
Need to test if the new regen stacks with Enhancing skill.
Previously it didn't, it only stacked with Level.
Might be a bit hard to test it since it always gets maximized with Light Arts on, and without Light Arts we don't get the bonus.
Can anybody try to break at least the 400 enha skill tier to see if something changes?
112 seems a bizarre number, unless it's 110, that would be a 50 seconds increase over normal Regen.
How much can WHMs get with all their enhancements, 90 seconds?
Still meh... 58hp/tic... Sigh, 40 seconds less is a lot. -
10-28-2011, 10:00 PMKaisha
I timed it manually so it could be off by a couple seconds.
Will check it with some enhance gear later, busy with some lolPUP stuff atm. -
10-28-2011, 11:23 PMSpankWustlerYeah, it's 90 seconds with Orison Mitts +2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhronne
Gaining more bonus potency and less bonus duration is a good concept, since Regen can't keep ticking on dead folks, but losing ~40 seconds of duration to gain 8 HP a tick doesn't seem like the fairest trade. -
10-28-2011, 11:44 PMZhronne
I would have preferred 8 hp less for 40 seconds more actually, but maybe it's just me hey.
Regen is potent enough, and tbf Regen IV (WHM version) would be good already. The problem is its casting time and the fact it doesn't last enough (90 seconds).
Being able to have regen ticking, even if for less, for like 7+ minutes (perpetuance +2) was awesome and would have allowed us to focus on our lolC4 while we have a powerful and lasting Regen on our party targets. Sigh... -
10-29-2011, 12:33 AMSasaraixxThat is one possible interpretation, but it is not clear. I will wait fr confirmation from the test server.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhronne
The Dark Arts bonus also is not mentioned. One would assume that SCH main would have a longer duration but with the way these updates have been going, I no longer take anything for granted.
The Regen adjustments are incredibly disappointing and a step in the wrong direction. Let's hope there is something we are missing.
I agree with you that I would have taken 8 less HP for a 40 second duration boost. It's just not realistic to expect is to recast these every 110 seconds. Even with perpetuance it's still not great. 150 seconds should be the base duration with all of the SCH main bonuses. -
10-29-2011, 01:39 AMMerton9999Absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
Given the current mob dispel obsession, I don't disagree with a shorter duration with more potency. The current trade-off seems disproportional though. If I'm recasting Regen every 20 seconds anyway, I'd honestly take 30 seconds for 225 per tick and a one-second casting time before I actually cared about a regen adjustment. Something like a Divine Benison and Modus Veritas combined for enhancing magic:
SCH level 90 Job Trait
Decreases casting time and duration, and increases potency for enhancing magic spells while lowering their enmity generation. Provides a dispel and absorption resistance to enhancing magic.
SCH level 90 Job Ability
10 second recast
Allows your next self-target enhancing spell to be cast on another party member.
If I can't cast Cure V from a distance I'd at least like to be able to use my set of lackluster alternatives without getting killed.
/SCH needs nothing to make it more attractive. Levels below 75 need nothing to make them more attractive given the way people actually play. The helix adjustments are still unwanted, unnecessary and damaging to the job. -
10-29-2011, 03:00 AMZhronne
I don't think they intentionally wanted to make /SCH more attractive, it's just a consequence of choices made for other purposes.
Still, it's true they are refusing to acknowledge the issue and underestimating it.
/SCH is already an insanely powerful subjob, the recent changes (and level increase) are making it even more powerful...
Perma Klimaform on /SCH? All helixes?
I dunno... they should really:
1) Acknowledge the issue
2) Promise they'll do something
I'd feel more comfortable, were that to happen.
But atm, altough probably not intentionally, /SCH is becoming more and more interesting, and that was completely unnecessary given how /SCH was really good to begin with. -
10-29-2011, 05:09 AMSmokenttp
i belive 2hrs are optimizing de damage of the helix some how, i downgraded my sch to lvl 20 and went to quifim for some testing, i was having a hard time hitting good helix on worms (min 3 max 32 damage altou rare ones , usually stayed arounnd 14 dmg) but when i throwed tabula rasa i sundelly started hitting a whomping 58-59 helix (2 casts both with close numbers and all of those casts including the non 2hrds was on thunder weather), and while i was not sure i think my regen got abit more of power too, im going to reset my 2hrs and retry regen, yes confirmed that right now 2hrs infact affects regen, gone from a punny 8 regen to a huge 41.
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10-29-2011, 07:55 AMZhronne
Yes, it was said in the previous test server patch. Tabula Rasa furtherly increases the bonus Light Arts gives to Regen and Dark Arts gives to Helix.
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10-29-2011, 08:57 AMSotek
So at low levels Helices will do ~3 tics and ~32 damage? Well that is impressive SE, Thunder nearly has the same base damage as Helices will do overall, truly a worthwhile addition.
I'm amazed that they're going through with this when it has been meet with absolute rejection. Leave Helices as they were and just scale them up from there, though I guess that's meaningless now since they've already wasted the development time with this idiocy, maybe they should detail what they want to do first so we can tell them it's stupid before they waste time implementing it.
I must say I got a giggle out of their plans for merits, "Two hour merits?" I thought, "Why didn't they give us something useful last update and save Embrava/Kaustra for merits?". Then again Embrava pretty much defines Scholar at this point, but that's a whole other problem. -
10-29-2011, 06:57 PMSmokenttp
from a bit more testings looks like they nerfed the helixes like hell (even tough the duration is higer) de damage is alot lower, my usual 200 dmg helix turned into jokinglys 80 dmg wich sucks alot, helixes nerf asside the buff on regen while outside 2hrs needs to be revamped as well i belive , altough it ups regen potency in about 60% i have a felling it needs to be bigger to help keeping someone alive maybe at around x3 instead of only x0.6 (considering that the 2hrs one pretty much make regen potency x6 on top of the light arts bonus) i think it wouldnt hurt to power they up a bit, and would turn regen into the main healing force of a sch leting cure being an emergency. back to helix tough i think they really need to give us an helix II now or just makes int even more powerfull for helixes( maybe a more straight int bonus)
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10-30-2011, 12:03 AMOuShiroHeart
Now we have
Regen: HP(tick) 21(+16)⇒29(+24) Duration(ticks) 57(+32)⇒41(+16) Total cured 1197⇒1189
Regen II: HP(tick) 28(+16)⇒36(+24) Duration(ticks) 52(+32)⇒36(+16) Total cured 1456⇒1296
Regen III: HP(tick) 36(+16)⇒44(+24) Duration(ticks) 52(+32)⇒36(+16) Total cured 1872⇒1584
Regen IV: HP(tick) 46(+16)⇒54(+24) Duration(ticks) 52(+32)⇒36(+16) Total cured 2392⇒1944
Tabula Rasa makes
※White Grimoire has no effect on these values
Regen: HP(tick) 41(+36) Duration(ticks) 49(+24) Total cured 2009
Regen II: HP(tick) 48(+36) Duration(ticks) 44(+24) Total cured 2112
Regen III: HP(tick) 56(+36) Duration(ticks) 44(+24) Total cured 2464
Regen IV: HP(tick) 66(+36) Duration(ticks) 44(+24) Total cured 2904
※All these without empyrean hat, amounts checked by making HP1 and checking HP after regen wears off to avoid error
As for the helix change, they were already in place. This update only made it so that they always have the mentioned durations, instead of a possibly resisted duration. i.e Now, a Lv95 Sch can have a 45sec duration helix, if it is resisted. This change will remove that possiblity. -
10-30-2011, 12:45 AMMerton9999
OK I must have missed this. Now helix spell potency has been divided in half, even for level 95 SCH, with the duration increased and stabilized?
I can't stop laughing. The whole problem with these spells has ALWAYS been that mobs die too fast to make their DoT worthwhile, or that the damage calculation made them useless on tough NMs. They are making both of these problems worse by requiring a longer duration to do the damage and by making the base damage lower?
How did I know that when the devs said they would be giving SCH main more attention that it would end up to be a very bad thing. Honestly, please just leave the job alone and stop making it worse. -
10-30-2011, 02:09 AMZhronne
But hey! We got Embrava and Kaustra! SCH is totally fixed now! :p
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10-30-2011, 04:23 AMRakshaDo we have independent confirmation on the helix nerf? That one guy could've just gotten a few resists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merton9999
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10-30-2011, 05:44 AMMerton9999I thought OuShiroHeart was confirming it by saying the helix changes were already in place. I'd love it if it weren't true. I need some reason not to dread seeing another SCH adjustment announcement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raksha
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10-30-2011, 06:02 AMRakshaI thought all that was about Tabula Rasa affecting helix spells. /shrugQuote:
Originally Posted by Merton9999
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10-30-2011, 11:25 AMAlhanelem
I'm not sure where people are getting this damage nerf idea from. (Someone told me that people were complaining about a nerf to helixes here- i haven't read the whole thread yet)
I cast pyrohelix on the test server, on firesday, with fire weather (from storm spell), dark arts, ebullence, with klimaform on and did 432 damage to a steppe hare in la theine plateau.
I cast the same spell under the same conditions on the live server, and did 365 damage.
The difference was more dramatically in favor of the test server in abyssea.
(Getting comprable damage with geohelix on earthsday testing further, so I can be reasonably sure it's not a resist)
How is that a nerf?
On top of that, the max duration is now 90 seconds instead of 60. Am I missing something here? This seems like a buff to me, not a nerf.
I've done a little more testing and the numbers are pretty consistent. So unless I'm experiencing weird freaks of nature or all the planets are alinging, we're not looking at a helix nerf here. -
10-30-2011, 09:01 PMTimeMage
Max duration has always been 90 seconds. In the normal servers, duration is random between 45 and 90 seconds (I mean totally random, not affected by anything). The difference with the changes implemented on the test server is that in the test servers they fixed the duration to the max, 90 seconds, at high levels.
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10-30-2011, 09:25 PMMerton9999
OK, thanks guys. I guess I need to get busy and sign up for the test server myself. We can only go by what people report here and we had some indication that the base value was lower. I'm glad that appears not to be true.
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10-31-2011, 12:40 AMRakshaQuote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
It was pretty much a misunderstanding.
Thank you for the test and confirmation though. -
11-01-2011, 02:13 PMAlhanelemMaybe my sense of time is screwed up, but I'm pretty sure its 60 right now (on live)Quote:
Max duration has always been 90 seconds.
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11-01-2011, 07:32 PMTimeMageMaybe they changed it very recently, but in my fair share of SCH solos I've used Helices countless times and the 45-90 seconds duration variance was always there. It also coincides with the experiences of many other SCHs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
I'll try today again, to see if they reduced duration to 60 s. -
11-02-2011, 01:19 AMAlhanelem
It wouldn't be "reduced." 60s is the norm, and it can last longer or shorter under various cases. On average, it's 60s.
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11-02-2011, 02:16 AMTimeMage
No, on average was (45+90)/2 = 67.5 seconds, it was a random uniform distribution. Going to test durations right now, let's see what I get.
Editing:
Did a small test, 30 Helix casts on worms on Abyss-Ulegerand.
Raw data, duration in seconds:
Minimum 45 s, maximum 89 s, consistent with my previous assumptions. Average duration 63.5 seconds, lower than expected, but within experimental error.Quote:
46
72
58
62
54
47
79
59
60
56
49
45
83
64
58
51
51
77
48
67
46
72
75
79
63
89
76
56
84
79
Did a fast analysis, and the data doesn't seem to follow a gaussian distribution, nor any kind of centered distribution. More data would be needed, but while I had more casts on the lower end of the duration spectrum, It seems that either the distribution is random and uniform, or lower durations are favored.
Considering that the easiest way to program the duration is "roll a random number, and renormalize it to the 45-89 seconds interval", I think the duration is still random and uniformly distributed. -
11-02-2011, 08:29 AMAlhanelem
Well, that's interesting, thanks for doing that.
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11-02-2011, 09:02 PMSasaraixx
Has anyone on the test server done any testing on the Grimoire bonus to Helix spells? (I wish I could get on the test server myself!) A Scholar (Tribal) on the Japanese forum is reporting a duration of 170 seconds (base damage 71) as a lv95 SCH/NIN with Dart Arts up and 90 seconds with it down. (I assume the test was done naked.) In fact, his results seem to show a 10 second increase in the difference between the bonus and the standard duration every 10 levels. If the pattern continues it would likely reach 180 seconds at lv99.
Here are his findings. I won't translate the whole post but here is a snippet. It is very easy to follow even if you don't speak Japanese. He used Geohelix and Hydrohelix and all of the tests were done in lowbie mobs outside of Abyssea. He notes that for the test at lv 80 he forgot to remove his Helix merits.
SCH/NIN LV95 INT 86Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribal
Enemy Misareaux Coast Bird
Dark Arts O Hydrohelix Damage 71 Effect Duration 170 seconds Damage Up 50%
Dark Arts X Hydrohelix Damage 47 Effect Duration 90 seconds
Thanks to Tribal for his hard work.