Job Adjustments manifesto Discussion

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Originally Posted by Rorrick

Can we get some Paladin information? I think it's a little silly to expound thrice over on three or four jobs while completely ignoring the other sixteen. I only mention Paladin because it's currently the most useless job in the game, but anything other than "job already covered Part X" would be welcome.

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PLD is making a solid comeback in VW.

If SAM gets Amnesia and/or Terror and DRK doesn't then I'm calling SE racist, or whatever I want to feel better about how ridiculous that is.

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Originally Posted by Selzak

If SAM gets Amnesia and/or Terror and DRK doesn't then I'm calling SE racist, or whatever I want to feel better about how ridiculous that is.

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I have to admit, Terror effects should belong exclusively to Dark Knight and Beastmaster.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Because sometimes they are very low on health from having sleep resists and might be dealing with other mobs. They might be low on MP. The healers may be busy on something else. It happens in Einherjar all the time.

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Don't have sucky BLMs? Have more than 1 BLM sleep stuff? Know that you can't sleep undead or Rocs. Use Convert, they should heal themselves. Even in your example you should have a BLM dedicated in Sleep only. If they are low on MP, then it is their fault that they have the avatars wake the mobs.

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Answer my question. Your first answer wasn't an answer. You have no valid reason for why an avatar should AUTO ATTACK a SLEEPING MOB. I do not mean Assaulting a sleeping mob. I do not mean auto attacking awake mobs. I do not mean regular attacking. I do not mean regular auto attacking awake mobs. You have no excuse not to understand what I am saying. Focus only on the bolded parts.

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I don't answer your question because I know you will twist my words to make it so I have to agree with you. You still haven't answered my question in full. Why do you feel like you have to be a WHM when you are a SMN?

Also, you do realize that Cure IV gives out the most enmity when it comes to cure, right?

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Originally Posted by Horadrim

I have to admit, Terror effects should belong exclusively to Dark Knight and Beastmaster.

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Sadly Feral Howl is garbage. There is no reason that Howl shouldn't be a one minute recast given all it does is stun an enemy.

Blue Mage has terrorize already and ask any BLU, it sucks.

If they did Terror Right it could be useful, But i agree i think they underpower it far to much when its basically a glorified Stun.

Feral Howl Should have been 1minute Timer, with Additional Mertis Effecting Accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

If they did Terror Right it could be useful, But i agree i think they underpower it far to much when its basically a glorified Stun.

Feral Howl Should have been 1minute Timer, with Additional Mertis Effecting Accuracy.

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All the more reason for it to be beefed and accessible primarily by Dark Knight, a job that basically banks off of being terrifying, and Beastmaster, a job designed to represent wild ferocity.

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Originally Posted by Selzak

If SAM gets Amnesia and/or Terror and DRK doesn't then I'm calling SE racist, or whatever I want to feel better about how ridiculous that is.

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Samurai getting Amnesia and or Terror, especially Terror is the stupidest thing I have heard in a long time.


It ranks up there with the Samurai dual wielding two Great Katanas.




Uh can DRK have meditate and Store TP please? Also in a future update I request that we get Seigan/Hasso/Third Eye.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Don't have sucky BLMs? Have more than 1 BLM sleep stuff? Know that you can't sleep undead or Rocs. Use Convert, they should heal themselves. Even in your example you should have a BLM dedicated in Sleep only. If they are low on MP, then it is their fault that they have the avatars wake the mobs.

I don't answer your question because I know you will twist my words to make it so I have to agree with you. You still haven't answered my question in full. Why do you feel like you have to be a WHM when you are a SMN?

Also, you do realize that Cure IV gives out the most enmity when it comes to cure, right?

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Twist nothing. You are admitting you can't answer my question. I already told you that SMN has a vast amount of MP and when not BPing they can easily help cure people. It's how SMN was played since day one and there is no excuse to change it.

I'm done with you. Someone else posted explaining how insane it would be to require an avatar to auto attack a sleeping mob. Since you refuse to ever answer my question, I'm considering you a troll who has nothing better to do than argue. You've had BLMs tell you that you are wrong, you've had SMN tell you that you are wrong, and still you don't listen. Until you answer my question, this argument is over.

SE, please fix it so that Avatars do not auto-attack slept mobs. There is no situation where this is helpful and it only hinders SMN.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Dumb idea is still dumb.

Next we'll have requests for BLU to use Forks because Quina did it in FFIX.

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Why not? I'd take a Spork I could nearly solo Ozma with over crappy swords any day >.>

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Dumb idea is still dumb.

Next we'll have requests for BLU to use Forks because Quina did it in FFIX.

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I want polearm skill for my blue mage, Kimahri Rosno from FFX got it and he was a blue mage.

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Originally Posted by Habiki

I want polearm skill for my blue mage, Kimahri Rosno from FFX got it and he was a blue mage.

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Right after I get my JA to turn Soulflayer at will.

all i want for blu is phalanx and MABII so i can stop this silly /rdm thing and go back to /sch :<

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

all i want for blu is phalanx and MABII so i can stop this silly /rdm thing and go back to /sch :<

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That sounds reasonable enough to actually be implemented.

I still want my Soulflayer though!

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Twist nothing. You are admitting you can't answer my question. I already told you that SMN has a vast amount of MP and when not BPing they can easily help cure people. It's how SMN was played since day one and there is no excuse to change it.

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But wait, didn't you say that you are Diabolos Refresh only? Wouldn't more than 1 BP a minute be too much for you, since all you care about is standing around looking pretty?

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I'm done with you. Someone else posted explaining how insane it would be to require an avatar to auto attack a sleeping mob. Since you refuse to ever answer my question, I'm considering you a troll who has nothing better to do than argue. You've had BLMs tell you that you are wrong, you've had SMN tell you that you are wrong, and still you don't listen. Until you answer my question, this argument is over.

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You want to know the answer? There is no situation would you want anyone to hit sleeping mobs that the party/alliance isn't killing, avatar or not. That is the most obvious answer and I expected you to know that answer. But you have to make it so in order for you to do anything, you have to have both an avatar out and curebomb the BLMs, which leads to your avatar waking the mobs because you feel that you need to be on top of the hatelist and have to have everything come kill you when they wake up. It is not my fault, nor SE, that you can't learn a simple concept of "don't get on top of the hatelist when you are in a party that the BLM has to sleep the mobs."

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SE, please fix it so that Avatars do not auto-attack slept mobs. There is no situation where this is helpful and it only hinders SMN.

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You know, you still don't get it. What does an avatar do when the SMN is on top of the hate list? They auto-attack. When do the avatars generally get on top of the hate list a lot? When they are soloing. You want to take away the best thing a soloist SMN has because you cannot learn a simple concept of not getting on the top of the mob hatelist in a party setup. Trust me, it is that simple.

Actually Korpg, it's a stupid design flaw that shouldn't have made it past RotZ beta almost a decade ago.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

But wait, didn't you say that you are Diabolos Refresh only? Wouldn't more than 1 BP a minute be too much for you, since all you care about is standing around looking pretty?

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Korpg, I forget... weren't you one of the guys that didn't believe there were SMN out there who did absolutely nothing (and were proud of it)?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Korpg, I forget... weren't you one of the guys that didn't believe there were SMN out there who did absolutely nothing (and were proud of it)?

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You mean like you do when you are weakened? Since you are like that 75% of the time from AoE TP/spells?

I'm not going to take you seriously any more Korpg. You have proven to me that you refuse to admit you are wrong. If an avatar auto-attacks a sleeping mob, it is a bad thing. You have not provided one instance ever in which you would want that behavior. Therefor you have no reason to be against a fix that would fix that behavior, and leave everything else the way it has always been. You are arguing to argue, so you are a troll.

Go away troll.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

I'm not going to take you seriously any more Korpg. You have proven to me that you refuse to admit you are wrong. If an avatar auto-attacks a sleeping mob, it is a bad thing. You have not provided one instance ever in which you would want that behavior. Therefor you have no reason to be against a fix that would fix that behavior, and leave everything else the way it has always been. You are arguing to argue, so you are a troll.

Go away troll.

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Have you asked yourself why an avatar auto-attacks a sleeping mob? Or any mob period? Avatars don't just go up and say "hey, there is a mob sleeping, let me hit it so I can possibly wipe the party." Just because you have a viewpoint of SMN being a support job only, does not mean that everyone shares the same idea as you. You play SMN as a gimp WHM and RDM, while others play it as a DD job, a melee mage, a solo job, and as a TP free damage job. Are they all wrong in playing SMN as you don't do?

But the main problem is, the only way to keep avatars from sleeping mobs, except not being on top of the mob's hate list, would be to take away the aggression of avatars on monsters who have the SMN as on top of the hate list. Do you know what that would do to the soloist who play this job to kite/kill NMs? Just because you don't play SMN as a soloist job doesn't mean you have to take it away from those who do.

SE knows that most of us understand SMN enough to not be on top of the hate list when in a party situation. Why are you suggesting that you take away a key aspect of the job because you cannot learn from your mistakes.

I have to say i agree with what Korpg is generally saying.

I like it when I'm soloing that my Avatar goes straight for the mob Im fighting. Without this Bomb-Soloing back in the day would have been impossible. Do not take this away, It is a benefit to the job in a lot of situations, just as much as it can be detrimental. However I will take the detriments if it means keeping the positives.

There is a simple solution for it, not being at the top of the hate list with a pet out. I admit its a problem for some people but removing it would be far worse in my eyes and in a lot of SMNs who use the job for more than being a bad healer.

I'm pretty sure no one is asking for Avatars to stop auto-agroing monsters that are after the Summoner. They just don't want it to happen to slept monsters.

Watch out Karby, he is going to start calling you a troll because you don't agree with him now.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I'm pretty sure no one is asking for Avatars to stop auto-agroing monsters that are after the Summoner. They just don't want it to happen to slept monsters.

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The avatars don't attack slept mobs because they are asleep though. That would be a problem if that is the case, and I fully agree with Tarage with that if that is the case. But it is not the case. He doesn't understand that there is a list of people on each mob's "list" in order of who has the most hate or not. He also doesn't understand that the avatar attacks any mob that the SMN is on top of that "list." Most everyone has known about this list for years, and SE even gave us the ability to look at that list (see: Libra).

He has not learned, and by the attitude he has been displaying on these forums, refuses to learn simple hate control aspects of this game. He is, by definition, a noob because of his lack of insight and refusal to adapt to situations.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I'm pretty sure no one is asking for Avatars to stop auto-agroing monsters that are after the Summoner. They just don't want it to happen to slept monsters.

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oh? I could have sworn that's exactly what he was asking for.

I'll have to reread, Regardless if all he's asking for is for Avatars to somehow detect/know if a mob is slept and to not attack it, I can't see that being a negative. If he's asking for the Auto-attack System as a whole to be removed I'm not on board.

Edit

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1. Avatars should not auto-attack sleeping mobs.
2. Avatars should be able to be told what to attack from a further distance.
3. When an Avatar uses a BP on a mob and it does before the BP can go off, reset the BP timer.

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Looks like he's only asking for pets not to attack sleeping mobs. Which i am on board with. Truthfully there is an easy solution (Not being on top of the hate list), but i agree it would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

oh? I could have sworn that's exactly what he was asking for.

I'll have to reread, Regardless if all he's asking for is for Avatars to somehow detect/know if a mob is slept and to not attack it, I can't see that being a negative. If he's asking for the Auto-attack System as a whole to be removed I'm not on board.

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He is basically asking that anyway, for the auto-attack system to be removed. If the avatars refuse to attack a sleeping mob, that means that you can't hit assault or use Night Terror on sleeping mobs anymore. Which kills the whole idea of Night Terror anyway.

The only instance I see an avatar atatacking a slept mob is s/he tossed a cure on the person who slept those mobs and the avatar was standing idle. If the mobs are slept, then how did that person take enough damage to require a cure? If its a Nm I can understand an AoE attack hitting a mage but anything else... A SMN shouldnt need to cast a cure on the person casting sleep.

If the mobs awake and hit the mage and still take a decent amount of damage, it should still be the person casting sleep to toss a cure on his or herself.

Keep lying and trolling Korpg. Never once did I say I wanted all of auto-attack to be taken away. That was an invention of your troll logic to keep this argument going.

Also I like how you don't read anything I say. Let me say it again, for the sake of everyone else trying to pay attention and getting caught up in your lies.

1. I only want avatars not to auto-attack sleeping mobs.
2. I do not want the removal of auto-attack on awake mobs.
3. I do not want to remove the ability to use the assault command on sleeping mobs.
4. If told by an avatar to attack a sleeping mob with the Assault command, or if slept is cast on a mob while the avatar is attacking it, the avatar should continue to attack it.

That's right folks. For anyone paying attention, they would realize the only part I want changed is for an avatar who has not been told by the SMN to attack a slept mob to not attack a slept mob. EVERYTHING ELSE STAYS THE SAME AS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN.

He has no legs to stand on. He wants to argue to argue and will lie to accomplish this. Please join me in saying: Go away troll.

Trolltrolltrolltrolltrolltroll.
Whenever I read a post here there's someone calling someone else a troll. 98% of the time with no basis.

You know who's a real troll? This guy is a real troll! http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Gu...r_the_Menacing

Yeah, but that troll sucks at trolling.

This guy is the king of trolls

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Keep lying and trolling Korpg. Never once did I say I wanted all of auto-attack to be taken away. That was an invention of your troll logic to keep this argument going.

Also I like how you don't read anything I say. Let me say it again, for the sake of everyone else trying to pay attention and getting caught up in your lies.

1. I only want avatars not to auto-attack sleeping mobs.
2. I do not want the removal of auto-attack on awake mobs.
3. I do not want to remove the ability to use the assault command on sleeping mobs.
4. If told by an avatar to attack a sleeping mob with the Assault command, or if slept is cast on a mob while the avatar is attacking it, the avatar should continue to attack it.

That's right folks. For anyone paying attention, they would realize the only part I want changed is for an avatar who has not been told by the SMN to attack a slept mob to not attack a slept mob. EVERYTHING ELSE STAYS THE SAME AS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN.

He has no legs to stand on. He wants to argue to argue and will lie to accomplish this. Please join me in saying: Go away troll.

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You take away one, you take away all, that is how SE works, you know that, right?

Also, we have the ability to not have the avatars auto-attack the mobs. I'll spell it out for you:

Don't
Be
On
The
Top
Of
The
Hate
List

It is as simple as that.

You no longer have an argument, yet you continue to argue. You have no more point, yet you continue to push it. No one likes you. Go away troll.

Okay, so Korpg misunderstood what Tarage is asking for and is stubborn enough to continue insisting that the thing he didn't ask for is a bad idea. Tarage calls him a troll, when really he's just incredibly stubborn and skims before writing posts.

Overall, the nonversation adds nothing to the thread.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Okay, so Korpg misunderstood what Tarage is asking for and is stubborn enough to continue insisting that the thing he didn't ask for is a bad idea. Tarage calls him a troll, when really he's just incredibly stubborn and skims before writing posts.

Overall, the nonversation adds nothing to the thread.

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You are right, I am stubborn. But you have to admit, SE is not going to make it so the avatars won't attack mobs that are slept, because that is not how they roll. Most people know how to get by that, and the main problem isn't avatars attacking slept mobs in the first place. It is the SMN who feels like they have to curebomb to get on top of the hate list.

Honestly dude, just agree to disagree. Maybe you dont feel you need it but if they were able to make it so your avatar didnt attack a sleeping pet, would that really hurt anymore?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

You are right, I am stubborn. But you have to admit, SE is not going to make it so the avatars won't attack mobs that are slept, because that is not how they roll. Most people know how to get by that, and the main problem isn't avatars attacking slept mobs in the first place. It is the SMN who feels like they have to curebomb to get on top of the hate list.

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Eh! If I'm BLM/RDM or BLM/SCH in Einherjar, SMN/WHM has a tier of Cure over me. I'd rather have them heal me after I get beaten on/sleepga than have to Cure 3 myself twice as many times, and it's not hard to argue that casting Cure on me is likely the most useful thing they could be doing at that moment. There are situations where it would be nice for SMN to not have to choose between keeping a pet out (like giving Diabolos's Favor to Black Mages) and being able to heal whoever (like healing Black Mages).

But yeah, I agree that SE is unlikely to ever improve any form of NPC AI.

for avatar auto attack: just add a new command like /autotarget but pet oriented you can turn on-off

Wonderful ideas. Sadly, people like Korpg will never try to understand anyone else's point of view. Clearly, the people who play differently from him are wrong.

And curebombing isn't required when the only other member on a mob's hate list is a BLM who cast sleepga. It isn't THAT hard to get more hate than them. Two cures?

Three people IN A ROW just told you that they don't agree with you, not including myself. I eagerly await you explaining how they are obviously wrong as well. Your ego is enormous.

I call you a troll because that is what you are doing. You have lost the argument, yet you continue to argue. People have pointed out that you didn't understand what I was asking for, yet you still try to say I'm asking for something I'm not. People play differently than you, yet you go out of your way to say they are playing wrong and your way to play is the one correct way.

Wikipedia has the following definition for troll: In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Inflammatory? No. Extraneous? Yes. Off-Topic? Somewhat. The key part is with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. Your constant misrepresenting of my points, refusal to admit when you were mistaken, and general egotistical garbage has pulled more than one thread off topic.

I'll say it again. Go away troll.

Admittedly I haven't read about the past three pages of the thread, and I know for certain that a developer will never post in this thread again especially after that derail.

But are we seriously talking about attacking slept mobs?

This seems like the kind of shit that shouldn't even need to be discussed or for there to be a mechanic for:

1: Don't do it.
2: Don't do it.
3: Unless its the next target to be killed.

4: Tell your pet to stop. . .?

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Wonderful ideas. Sadly, people like Korpg will never try to understand anyone else's point of view. Clearly, the people who play differently from him are wrong.

And curebombing isn't required when the only other member on a mob's hate list is a BLM who cast sleepga. It isn't THAT hard to get more hate than them. Two cures?

Three people IN A ROW just told you that they don't agree with you, not including myself. I eagerly await you explaining how they are obviously wrong as well. Your ego is enormous.

I call you a troll because that is what you are doing. You have lost the argument, yet you continue to argue. People have pointed out that you didn't understand what I was asking for, yet you still try to say I'm asking for something I'm not. People play differently than you, yet you go out of your way to say they are playing wrong and your way to play is the one correct way.

Wikipedia has the following definition for troll: In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Inflammatory? No. Extraneous? Yes. Off-Topic? Somewhat. The key part is with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. Your constant misrepresenting of my points, refusal to admit when you were mistaken, and general egotistical garbage has pulled more than one thread off topic.

I'll say it again. Go away troll.

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Troll by far has to be the stupidest internet meme/term/slang/creation, since its conception in Da Vinci's brain while he sailed over the poppy fields in a flying machine.