[Dev 1009] Force Pop HNM's FTW

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Originally Posted by Dazusu

Where'd you get that data from? Your backside?

I think you'll find the casual noobs just cry louder and cry more for what they want. Most of the HNM fans didn't bother to post against a wall of ignorance. That was my downfall.

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This (person you would consider because I don't cheat my patoot off) "casual noob" would rather see all "We Want Bots" Society of America (that is, most US HNM fans) to GTFO and go away!

(I have a better name for you, but I can't use it here!)

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Originally Posted by Dazusu

Is it really hard to understand that people don't want to farm Kindred Seals for 8 hours to pop a Fafnir, for the chance at popping a Nidhogg, King Behemoth or Aspidochelone?

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Well...

Is it really hard to understand that people don't want to be outclaimed by bots and other illegal mechanisms and watch mobs pop purple for hours on end, with NO chance at popping a Nidhogg, King Behemoth or Aspidochelone?

I keep hearing "Fight fafnir for a chance at nidhogg" when in the old days it was "Camp Fafnir for a chance at nidhogg, Oh, and also you might not claimlol, oh and you only can do it once a day."

I understand the skepticism behind this, But really if you step back and logically assess it without being upset, You might be able to see the silver lining :). Just need to understand the big picture :D!

The fact that is tradable is very nice, you could "buy" your way into BB then,

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Originally Posted by viion

The fact that is tradable is very nice, you could "buy" your way into BB then,

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You could buy a bb befor so i see no difference.

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Originally Posted by Sasukeuchiha

You could buy a bb befor so i see no difference.

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difference being it will be easier to get triggers and there won't be a monopoly on the fights..

and you can actually do the fight yourself now

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

difference being it will be easier to get triggers and there won't be a monopoly on the fights..

and you can actually do the fight yourself now

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If you have a large enough HNMLS, I beg to differ on the monopoly end.

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Originally Posted by Starcade

If you have a large enough HNMLS, I beg to differ on the monopoly end.

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Probably early on i think you're right, because theres going to be a lot of people after them. But i can't think of very many LS who'd orchestrate a large scale thing like that doing Multiple KSNM99's just to cock-block people.

Or a Large HNMLS that even exists :P

HEY GUYS!

Including you guys at SE

Why can't the mobs both spawn like normal, and be poppable?

Leave the NMs in the game, let them spawn when they usually do, don't touch their drops or drop rates. In addition, add the system you're planning on, with no drop from NQ, reduced drop rates on HQ, etc.

Maybe make it so you can't manually pop them while there is already a timed-spawn version of it running around.

I don't even play monk or plan on doing so in a long time, so I neither know nor care how hard or easy it is to get a black belt. I just think it's cool that sometimes, really strong dragons and shit are roaming around in certain areas. So I kind of want to keep them around.

Dear SE,

You PROMISED Fafnir would FLY into Dragon's Aery. What the hell is this fading-into-existence nonsense that I'm seeing? Do you think this is some sort of power point presentation where you can just hit on and off the fade-in animation? I for one am disappointed.

- By Yugl

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Originally Posted by Mirage

HEY GUYS!

Including you guys at SE

Why can't the mobs both spawn like normal, and be poppable?

Leave the NMs in the game, let them spawn when they usually do, don't touch their drops or drop rates. In addition, add the system you're planning on, with no drop from NQ, reduced drop rates on HQ, etc.

Maybe make it so you can't manually pop them while there is already a timed-spawn version of it running around.

I don't even play monk or plan on doing so in a long time, so I neither know nor care how hard or easy it is to get a black belt, I just think it's cool that sometimes, really strong dragons and shit are roaming around in certain areas. So I kind of want to keep them around.

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I don't understand how timed spawns are more beneficial than force pops..

I do wish the triggers were more common.. but if they were too common people would complain about that also

I can't think of any NM's in the game where multiple instances of them can be up at the same time... It would be nice to not have to wait for a ??? and see people fighting like 10 behemoths at once

I'm pretty sure if the game was capable of handling multiple of the same NM's up at the same time it would have been implemented already.

and having a time spawned / force pop system side by side would have way too many issues with the whole single NM up at a time system ffxi has

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

What the shit is this? Lol. You're the one banned from BG, not me.

Also, Wiki is total crap for determining the drop rates of something =/. How often do you see people reporting their drop rates? The Hills Are Alive's Drop% for Adamanoitse Egg is based off of only 111 samples. The NQ HNM Drop% for Adamantoise Egg is based off of even less, 105 samples.The people who report their drop rates also tend to be the outliers who have had either good streaks or bad streaks anyways, which will always skew the end result.

As for Rambus, yes I'm talking about the Aspid KSNM. Personally, I've not noticed any difference in drop rates between the 3 and it seems counter-intuitive to have different drop rates for BB items between the 3 KS99s anyways. Say "Nuh uhh" all you want, it doesn't change the fact that I have had a significantly different experience than yours, and that neither of our experiences can be said to be representative of the norm anyways.

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A confident interval what is it ? With 100 sample and 25% droprate you know the droprate is between 17% and 33% so I think we are far from your 75% droprate, try again ?

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

I don't understand how timed spawns are more beneficial than force pops..

I do wish the triggers were more common.. but if they were too common people would complain about that also

I can't think of any NM's in the game where multiple instances of them can be up at the same time... It would be nice to not have to wait for a ??? and see people fighting like 10 behemoths at once

I'm pretty sure if the game was capable of handling multiple of the same NM's up at the same time it would have been implemented already.

and having a time spawned / force pop system side by side would have way too many issues with the whole single NM up at a time system ffxi has

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I never talked about what as more beneficial than the other. I said it would be nice if both could coexist, because I like the idea of seeing rare, strong enemies roam around, and being able to say to my LS "hey guys, X is up and unclaimed, who wants to come kill it with me?"

Why would having both systems side by side have too many issues? Please explain. I already suggested that players wouldn't be able to pop it whenever it was already up, be that from a forced spawn or a timed spawn. The only thing that would need to happen would be for the ??? to disappear when the NM time-spawned, or to give players a message saying "you a the feeling that the monster is already nearby". With how far apart each spawn is, I doubt this would be a real problem.

If you were unlucky enough to try to pop the NM a second after it timespawned (extremely unlikely), all you have to do is to either find the NM yourself, saving you 99 Kseals (and getting an increased chance to get the drop). If it's already claimed by a different group, you just need to wait until they kill it, which shouldn't take too long with people at level 90. After that, you can proceed with popping your NM as you planned to.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

A confident interval what is it ? With 100 sample and 25% droprate you know the droprate is between 17% and 33% so I think we are far from your 75% droprate, try again ?

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I know exactly what a confidence interval is. I never said the drop rate was 75%. I said my personal drop rate on those items from the 3 KS99s has been 75%. How much does that mean? Jack squat. Just like quoting a 3% personal drop rate like Rambus was doing. And that's the point. Christ, you're slow on the uptake.

You're also completely missing/ignoring/disputing the point that people who actually report their drop rates in the Wiki template tend to be people with extraordinary (high or low, doesn't matter) drop rates rather than typical rates. It is not an unbiased sample of people, which is contingent to drawing proper conclusions and confidence intervals. The only reported rates come from people who experienced a given drop rate, and then felt the need to report it. Given that it only has 100 samples in, oh, 6-7 years, I dare say most people are left completely unrepresented.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

I never talked about what as more beneficial than the other. I said it would be nice if both could coexist, because I like the idea of seeing rare, strong enemies roam around, and being able to say to my LS "hey guys, X is up and unclaimed, who wants to come kill it with me?"

Why would having both systems side by side have too many issues? Please explain. I already suggested that players wouldn't be able to pop it whenever it was already up, be that from a forced spawn or a timed spawn. The only thing that would need to happen would be for the ??? to disappear when the NM time-spawned, or to give players a message saying "you a the feeling that the monster is already nearby". With how far apart each spawn is, I doubt this would be a real problem.

If you were unlucky enough to try to pop the NM a second after it timespawned (extremely unlikely), all you have to do is to either find the NM yourself, saving you 99 Kseals (and getting an increased chance to get the drop). If it's already claimed by a different group, you just need to wait until they kill it, which shouldn't take too long with people at level 90. After that, you can proceed with popping your NM as you planned to.

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The issues i was referring to was about having 2 of the same NM up at the same time..

and a force pop system side by side with a timed spawn system would take some fancy code writing that the ffxi team hasn't figured out yet

Ie. having 2 of the same NM up at the same time.

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If you have a large enough HNMLS, I beg to differ on the monopoly end.

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Abyssea gutted all the HNMLS. They are all basically just socials or semi endgame shells, none are anything like what they used to be. The whole HNMLS scene was not a pleasant one so the moment you didn't need to be in one anymore most left, or they quit cause of how different the game is. The strongest current shells are ones akin to what sky shells used to be and they are pretty small.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You're also completely missing/ignoring/disputing the point that people who actually report their drop rates in the Wiki template tend to be people with extraordinary ...

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I'm not ignoring it ; it's not an argument, you have nothing to back it up.

I always thought the drop rate was about 20% for the BB items from what i've seen...

I've only done about 40 or so KS99 tho

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

I'm not ignoring it ; it's not an argument, you have nothing to back it up.

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Well, Considering theres only 111 reports, It seems like people don't always report it. As I'm sure in the last 7 years more than 111 people across all servers have done the KSNM.

I can personally attest I don't update Wiki Drop rate info unless its really bad or really good.

Though i adamantly admit 1 Testimony isn't enough.

But neither is "Drop rate sucks I've only seen maybe 2/3 in like 20 30 runs" that GG was arguing against. The point he made was that both claims were ridiculous and uncredible.

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

The issues i was referring to was about having 2 of the same NM up at the same time..

and a force pop system side by side with a timed spawn system would take some fancy code writing that the ffxi team hasn't figured out yet

Ie. having 2 of the same NM up at the same time.

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How do you know it would take some fancy code writing that the ffxi team hasn't figured out yet? Did they tell you?

It sounds really easy for me. All you need to do is make the server do something like this:

When player trades to ???
check if X NM is alive
if yes, display "cannot pop right now, NM is already up" to player
if no, pop NM.

"Ie. having 2 of the same NM up at the same time"
What does this even mean? Why would two of the same NMs be up at the same time? Who is saying they should be? Who is saying they have to be? Who is saying it is impossible to prevent?

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Originally Posted by Mirage

How do you know it would take some fancy code writing that the ffxi team hasn't figured out yet? Did they tell you?

It sounds really easy for me. All you need to do is make the server do something like this:

When player trades to ???
check if X NM is alive
if yes, display "cannot pop right now, NM is already up" to player
if no, pop NM.

"Ie. having 2 of the same NM up at the same time"
What does this even mean? Why would two of the same NMs be up at the same time? Who is saying they should be? Who is saying they have to be? Who is saying it is impossible to prevent?

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I'm saying if it was possible to have 2 NM's up at the same time... It for sure should have been implemented by now...

Think of all the Q.Qlery it would have saved in abyssea for people camping seals

and yes... simple concepts can be retarded to code if the coders are limited to a poorly designed framework

for example you will never see any sort of frame rate improvement on the game

You're talking as if modifying the graphics engine is in any way comparable in difficulty to coding a tiny serverside NPC script.

I'm saying there shouldn't be two of the same NMs up at the same time, so I have no idea why you even keep bringing that up. In fact, I'm giving suggestions on how to *make sure* there won't be two NMs up at the same time even if you have two coexisting systems.

For the record, I think it entirely, completely, totally unproblematic to have two of the same NMs up at the same time. In fact, I think a senior GM, or developer, with the right access priviledges, would be able to instantly spawn an amount of fafnirs only limited by the server's hardware resources. If he didn't care about losing his job afterwards, of course.

I don't think the server software fundamentally differentiates between a normal mob and an NM, except that the server won't tell the client how strong it actually is (impossible to gauge). If the game server supports 10 "Greater Manticore" at the same time, it supports 10 Vrtra at the same time. And 10 cerberus, and 10 behemoth kings. I think the reason they don't have multiple copies of the same NM at the same time is mostly because it would be stupid to look at, and would conflict with the world's lore.

It's the same reason why all the Auction House NPCs in Port Jeuno don't look the same and have the same names. Making them all look the same would probably acually be faster and easier for the devs, but they don't do it exactly because it would look retarded.

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

Funny how you separate HNM fans from noobs; most HNM players were SHOCKING! I don't know if it happened on your server, but HNMLSs as a whole proved very incapable at Abyssea and generally just threw excessive bodies at things forever, which is all the "skill" HNM ever taught.

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You were on a sucky server then.

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Originally Posted by Starcade

Is it really hard to understand that people don't want to be outclaimed by bots and other illegal mechanisms and watch mobs pop purple for hours on end, with NO chance at popping a Nidhogg, King Behemoth or Aspidochelone?

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I understand that side of the argument completely. However, there are better ways to deal with the issue than make KS99 the path to pop an old NM which popped freely for the past 8 years. Preferably one with much less work involved.
(You understand, I say this because the NM popped freely; if the treasure from the NMs had been upgraded, then I would understand all the leg work - but in this instance, it hasn't been upgraded. It's more work for the same results.)

Good players / noobs aren't differentiated between by the third-party tools they use. More by how much they suck when doing things. Or how much they cry in shout in Jeuno because people are using Windower.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Well, Considering theres only 111 reports, It seems like people don't always report it. As I'm sure in the last 7 years more than 111 people across all servers have done the KSNM.

I can personally attest I don't update Wiki Drop rate info unless its really bad or really good.

Though i adamantly admit 1 Testimony isn't enough.

But neither is "Drop rate sucks I've only seen maybe 2/3 in like 20 30 runs" that GG was arguing against. The point he made was that both claims were ridiculous and uncredible.

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Wiki data is better than all data you will be able to provide, as I said above it's true +/- 8%. Wiki shows about 20-25% so it's no more than 30% ish. Noone but you and Greatguardian are eyeballing droprate based on personnal experiece. 100 kills is significant data to exclure high droprates.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Wiki data is better than all data you will be able to provide, as I said above it's true +/- 8%. Wiki shows about 20-25% so it's no more than 30% ish. Noone but you and Greatguardian are eyeballing droprate based on personnal experiece. 100 kills is significant data to exclure high droprates.

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No. Not just us. Rambus was the one who came in whining about his "3% drop rate" on Turtle KS99. The entire point of our bringing up the drop rates was to call attention to the fact that one person having a shitty eyeballed drop rate is completely meaningless (herp derp we agree, that's what I've been saying the whole time). You would do well to read and comprehend the context behind statements before you go off running your mouth. This is not the first time you've either brought up completely irrelevant bullcrap (herp derp pDif on Wiki) or tried to prove my point for me because you don't understand a word I'm saying in context.

Except that you were quoting my statement about wiki droprates being correct stop trying to change subject ? If this was even true you sould have noticed that wiki doesn't show 3% droprate, no ?

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Except that you were quoting my statement about wiki droprates being correct stop trying to change subject ? If this was even true you sould have noticed that wiki doesn't show 3% droprate, no ?

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Now you're just being dense for the sake of being dense. Wiki drop rates suffer from a large amount of sampling bias. If you and I can't agree on that, that's fine and we'll just have to disagree. What you don't realize was the entire point of the discussion on drop rates that you butted into halfway through was to demonstrate that any one person's anecdotal data, be it mine or Rambus's, is full of crap and doesn't mean a darn thing. As far as I can tell, we've agreed on this point from the get-go.

I just wanted to add my 2 cents in.... This is a horrible idea fyi .... why lower the drop rate?>?!! If anything just make it 100% to lower it meens more and more ppl now have way less a chance and got do Kindred seal shouts for a chance to get it. The other part of it is fine Idc what you got do. If you left it alone like it was and just changed it to 100% people whould camp it get there item and move on. To mess with something for people who do not have it . You situationaly made it harder to get there's (I for one have mine so i dont mind) but talk on chat and in my linkshell everyone thinks this is a busted idea..... To fix it quit lowering drops on r/ex stuff! Nothing like spamming a nm over and over AND GETTING NOTHING. So I have no clue as to why you would lower the drop rate on the BB item and not make it 100% not like there is more to do in game than spam old fights or get players now to save seals to spam a ksnm for something lower rate. As is we did behmouth ksnm and got 4-20 runs....way to go SE. Lets lower that more. But then again you get paid monthly and keeps us hooked right? Needless to say I offer this as a solution

Make the BB items 100% .... not like other belts are not out there bullwhip goading etc. Then if you change that I will agree with your idea. But if not I say dont even mess with it and lower the rate .... In my eyes thats fail and am sorta upset you would make this idea.

This doesn't really make obtaining a black belt harder.. it just changes the hours of standing around you'd have to do

into farming kindred seals.. or farming gil to buy triggers

and so what if they lower the drop rate from 100% ... even if its like 50% thats not too bad imo

fight a HQ king 2 or 3 times in a single day and get your items...

I know that sounds harder than waiting up to 2 weeks for a HQ king to spawn and only having a chance to claim it... but i assure you.. it is in fact not harder

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Wiki data is better than all data you will be able to provide, as I said above it's true +/- 8%. Wiki shows about 20-25% so it's no more than 30% ish. Noone but you and Greatguardian are eyeballing droprate based on personnal experiece. 100 kills is significant data to exclure high droprates.

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I've never eyeballed anything based on personal Experience in this thread :| I pulled those numbers from Rambus, GG, and Wiki. None of them are mine.

Rambus is the one who went on about "ADA EGG DROP RATE SUKCS IT 2-3 / 20-30 RUNS, I NO SEE IT, IT HAS BAD DORP RATE, BEHEMOTH TONGUE WYRM BURD HAS HIGH DRP RATE"

And GG went on something along the lines of "Blah blah You're eyeballing blah blah, If you're going to eyeball i could say "I did 3 runs, and got 2 Eggs, so drop rate is 75% blah blah"

and then you came.

Wiki drop rates are inaccurate and unreliable unless they're above ~1,000, for the most part as for the reason GG Said. You may go to wiki every day and give right information and updates, But some people will just go there, update 1 thing, and 0/1 everything else, or for the sake of being upset, go to Wiki, having only done a BCNM twice, add 0/5 or 0/10 on the drop rate out of malice.

Its just unreasonable to base any assumptions from it is where GG was going. You made it more reasonable by concluding a -8/+8% drop rate for 100 testimonies, but we can't confirm if all these testimonies are truthful.

However, If they are 100% Legit, You are right that -8/+8 isn't too bad. Truthfully Looking at drop rate for all 3, I'd say the KSNM99's probably have ~20% Drop rate.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Except that you were quoting my statement about wiki droprates being correct stop trying to change subject ? If this was even true you sould have noticed that wiki doesn't show 3% droprate, no ?

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Hey Pchan, Im still waiting for my answer to this:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ll=1#post64917

I'm shocked to see that so many people still give a damn about ground kings. If you haven't already gotten all the outdated garbage they drop before they started raising the cap, you probably weren't meant to have it. This is just another way to give noobs what they want the easy way. Hell, Adamantoise and Behemoth were soloable at 75, at this heightened level, I wouldn't be surprised if Faf is too. My point is, stop complaining and go camp it if you want it that bad. No need to spend money for black belt. I had black belt well before my MNK could even use it. You can do it too if you just put the effort in. I'm going to admit I'll be dumping my seals to make a pretty penny off needy suckers, and maybe get a D.ring in the process. Thanks for an extension to an already easy way to make gil SE!

I think that most people are complaining about that since MNK is the new bandwagon job, the long-time MNKs who have had a black belt for a while no longer have that "elitist" feeling they had for so many years now that everyone can get a black belt now.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I think that most people are complaining about that since MNK is the new bandwagon job, the long-time MNKs who have had a black belt for a while no longer have that "elitist" feeling they had for so many years now that everyone can get a black belt now.

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I've had a black belt for ages, and with certainty, I can say this is no where even close to the case for me.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

I've had a black belt for ages, and with certainty, I can say this is no where even close to the case for me.

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You are also a career MNK. You were playing MNK before it became popular and useful.

I'm not saying that every MNK feels the same, I'm just stating that all the negativity shown from this has been towards how easy the getting Black Belt is going to be now.

Black Belt will no longer be a status symbol for hardcore MNKs. Like Masamune is for SAM.

Can't say I've ever felt elitist with a black belt. My MNK is pretty crappy. Not 90 yet, at least not wearing any aurore or other trash gear like that. There's a difference between being elitist and being experienced or educated.

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Originally Posted by Harukusan

Can't say I've ever felt elitist with a black belt. My MNK is pretty crappy. Not 90 yet, at least not wearing any aurore or other trash gear like that. There's a difference between being elitist and being experienced or educated.

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Most people wouldn't know if they are acting like an elitist or not. Then again, some people don't know what elitism is, but thats besides the point.

The point is, those who are complaining about making black belt easier are mainly those who had to wait in line, or buy their drops, or had to endure months of competition, just to get their black belt, and see this new system as belittling their efforts where any john doe MNK can get the same belt that they spent so long getting quicker.

But you are right, somewhat. There is a big difference between experienced/educated and gear. Not so much difference between elitism and experienced (since you have to be experienced or educated to become an elite). I could Abyssea burn my MNK to 90 right now, and become geared up as most any other MNK, but since I don't have the experience to back it up, I would not be in the same level as they are.

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You are also a career MNK. You were playing MNK before it became popular and useful.

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Mnk has been useful for as long as I've been playing it, so I disagree

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Originally Posted by Korpg

But you are right, somewhat. There is a big difference between experienced/educated and gear. Not so much difference between elitism and experienced (since you have to be experienced or educated to become an elite). I could Abyssea burn my MNK to 90 right now, and become geared up as most any other MNK, but since I don't have the experience to back it up, I would not be in the same level as they are.

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I missworded that slightly. Of course you need to be experienced to become elite, but judging by peoples' opinions about "elitists" there is a large gap in attitude and the feeling of being superior to others. Having the gear and experience and education of game mechanics is something that is available to everyone, but those who are ignorant would only bother to criticize those whose intentions are in the right place, possibly because of a slight intimidation factor? maybe? It's quite ironic and hypocritical to judge someone and call them an elitist. You're calling them on the same charge you yourself are guilty of. Of course, I've been criticized before I've even met some people. Go figure. The feeling is mutual.

Back on topic!

This force-pop king thing is terribad! There are many other issues with the game that need to be prioritized before you pick out something that wasn't broken to begin with. Like, can we just make Assault, Salvage, and Einherjar open for solo players? Thanks.

Oh and I want to say this again, I oughta say this in every post:

Stop the server merge! You're only making things worse!! I don't want to be a part of any server other than my own~ especially since it's not been so congested as it used to be. Not that it isn't congested still, but it's not as bad.

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Originally Posted by Harukusan

I'm shocked to see that so many people still give a damn about ground kings. If you haven't already gotten all the outdated garbage they drop before they started raising the cap, you probably weren't meant to have it. This is just another way to give noobs what they want the easy way. Hell, Adamantoise and Behemoth were soloable at 75, at this heightened level, I wouldn't be surprised if Faf is too. My point is, stop complaining and go camp it if you want it that bad. No need to spend money for black belt. I had black belt well before my MNK could even use it. You can do it too if you just put the effort in. I'm going to admit I'll be dumping my seals to make a pretty penny off needy suckers, and maybe get a D.ring in the process. Thanks for an extension to an already easy way to make gil SE!

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Haukusan will you have little mithran/taru half breed babies with me?