Thoughts on the FFXI Job Adjustment Manifesto

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Originally Posted by Boofaceing

I dont play Scholar. I see that the most fighting on this boards happens over these type of things from War hating on Samurai and back and forth. My opinion is that they are advanced classes. An Advanced Samurai should not have a warrior holding a candle to them. A black Mage studies the White magics and he is then a Scholar and he should be able to well hold a candle to any of the other 2 magic groups. He is an advanced class, a scholar of magics, which if I recall not only from lore but just from a university, a scholar beats out a single mage skilled in one art anyways. Scholars possess great knowledge of magical powers, more so then a simple mage reading scrolls to learn his incantations as the game puts it.

Just my 2 cents, I am in for supporting advanced jobs being advanced. (Have seen you guys in action, it was pretty bad compared to others. My impulses were screaming 'Why didn't this guy just go BLM/WHM or BLM/RDM at the least?'. That was at lower level though, maybe it changes drastically at higher and the people argueing still have a point?)

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I do not think that word means what you think it means.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

The question now is if it is enough to help Scholars (considering on a ton of the Abyssea content you don't need a White Mage anymore, it might be for that at least baring procs).

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And the answer imho is "no".
Too early to tell, but it's not enough.
Still, it's a very very very welcome addition which will only make things better compared to the past.
We're not quite where we wanted to be yet, but we're definitely in a better position than we were before imho.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

As others have said, you are incorrect. It was specifically addressed in one of the Q&As that these changes would be for SCH main.

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I remember that, but atm they give a slight bonus to /SCH as well, Foldypaws tried it with me the other day as WHM/SCH on the test server, and he was getting a small bonus to the potency and to the lenghttime of the buff.

Have him retest, 60 second* duration 32 hp/tick with and without lightarts on naked whm/sch

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

No. It wouldn't. People will always go with the least amount of jobs needed. A WHM is always going to be included in that group. SCH and RDM are vastly inferior to BLM when it comes to procs. You are *always* going to have a BLM in your group if you are smart. That makes the added nuking utility from RDM useless. (And if you are main healing on anything remotely difficult you are not going to be nuking.) The edge in preventing physical damage is also debatable given cureskin.
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We seem to be going in circles here. If the agreed scenarios are least amount of people, one healer and one nuker, the only logical conclusion is scholar wants to be the healer or nuker. So the only solution is the hybrid needs to be better than the specialist, which isn't appropriate for a balance scenario. Unless you are saying scholar needs its own niche carved out, who would they be replacing? I am actually not being facetious here, I am trying to figure out what everyone is saying.

I gave the example of voidwatch, in which most of us still go with large groups. I said we always take a scholar to voidwatch. I was then told by Sotek I basically was a gimp who needed 18 people to do things with. I gave the example of old content in which people still screw around and lowman, like dyna. Then I was told lololdcontent. So what situations are you all talking about?

If we talking about Abyssea, there are probably 12 jobs left behind. Why is scholar a special unique snowflake that needs a niche carved out in abyssea. What are some examples in which you would like to come scholar outside of abyssea and are told no?

Is the fact that you can replace a black mage or white mage as needed not a niche? Are you not a support mage? Can groups not take a main healer and a secondary healer? Can you not main heal lower content? Can you not nuke as effectively as a black mage excluding procs in 90% of situations? Would you like more procs than black mage, and then black mages sit on sidelines? Would you like to main heal and then white mage on sidelines? Trying to figure out the buffs that would make scholars happy.

Personally, I think the scholar job was probably just bad game design and was never given a niche. Not sure at this point that can be fixed. In a low man environment a lot of jobs don't have niches. So those are some of my issues and questions.

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So the only solution is the hybrid needs to be better than the specialist,

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Asking to be capable is not the same as saying to be better than or to replace outright. It does, to an extent, mean replace but not in the "well we have a sch and a whm, lets go with the sch cause whm sucks" sense but in the "well we don't have a whm, but the sch can handle it" sense.

Yes some "lololdcontent" can be main healed by a sch, but most people want better general usability not "well its so easy anyone could do it".

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Why is scholar a special unique snowflake

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Because we're sch's? Its not like people don't petition the adjustments of their own favorite jobs. Yes sch isn't the only job behind in the race, especially in abyssea, that doesn't negate the need for adjustments.

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What are some examples in which you would like to come scholar outside of abyssea and are told no?

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I don't usually do pugs, but with the people and friends that I run stuff with its never "sch sucks don't bring it" but instead "well what can we do with the jobs and people that are available right now" and by extension for me personally its "will I be useful on sch, or should I just switch to mnk and ask to borrow my friends character again whose whm I leveled myself just so I could cure with her instead of on sch." (I love both mnk and sch equally, so its not a matter of which job I prefer to be on)

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Would you like more procs than black mage

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You mentioned VW earlier, part of the issue is that yes you bring sch to void watch but soon sch won't have any procs that blm or whm can't have. This was always my concern in abyssea, not that I had so few procs, but the procs that I had were completely covered by another job. Like I said its not always a matter of "more than" or "better than".

I have no interest in replacing a whm if we have one, I'd like to replace one when we don't and I just don't really feel that capable when I've tried.

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Personally, I think the scholar job was probably just bad game design and was never given a niche.

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Its true in a six man it can be hard to justify your slot, but as far as niches are concerned it feels like se tries but only half heartedly. Regain, enmity spells, libra, 12 minute haste two hour, these are all potentially niches that have all been given limited scope and utility. It really doesn't have to be that way.

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Originally Posted by Ank

Have him retest, 60 second* duration 32 hp/tick with and without lightarts on naked whm/sch

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Oh, that's good news then, I was slightly disappointed when he told me that :)

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We seem to be going in circles here. If the agreed scenarios are least amount of people, one healer and one nuker, the only logical conclusion is scholar wants to be the healer or nuker. So the only solution is the hybrid needs to be better than the specialist, which isn't appropriate for a balance scenario. Unless you are saying scholar needs its own niche carved out, who would they be replacing? I am actually not being facetious here, I am trying to figure out what everyone is saying.

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Because it's impossible for Scholar to be equal to White Mage and Black Mage, right? Totally a ridiculous thought to want to see shouts for "White Mage or Scholar (or Red Mage)" rather than what we currently get which I (hope) don't even need to explain. One job should not be given sole monopoly over a position in a party, look no further than Abyssea White Mages for proof.

Granted the Stagger system has far more to do with that than anything else, but then again the majority of what people here want adjusted are no where near the level of adjustment you seem to think they are. The number one suggestion here is for Modus to actually land. The second is for Adloquium to do 2TP/tic, third Animus spells to not be worthless (+VE/tic and -CE/tic, just hire me already SE). Even something like Cure V has almost always been advocated as a high enmity spell, which would pretty much make a worthless spell which is only used in an "ohshi-" moment like Cure VI.

It's really not a hard concept for the game to involve inviting a Scholar (Dark Arts) and a White Mage or a Scholar (Light Arts) and a Black Mage, or any other variation on that; including inviting a Black Mage and a White Mage. I'm holding out on Lv.99 to seriously judge the state of balance between Scholar and White/Black Mage, but right now I'd certainly say it's something that's needed some adjustment (which we've possibly got for Light Arts now). Certainly other jobs need more attention, but this isn't the Dark Knight forum, so I'm going to stick to telling people who come here complaining about Scholar updates to shut up and continue posting suggestions for Scholar.

Sotek and others have dealt with most of your post, but I'll add a bit more.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Is the fact that you can replace a black mage or white mage as needed not a niche?

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If that were true we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Are you not a support mage?

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If we are, we're not a good one. Outside of Embrava, which was *just* added, what other useful support abilities do we have? WHM and RDM can now use Accession for their buffs and BLMs can give themselves weather and Klimaform, save for thunderstorm and voidstorm. And so help me if you mention Aldoquium or the Animus spells, things will get ugly.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Can groups not take a main healer and a secondary healer?

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Of course they can, but why would they want to? WHM can heal perfectly fine alone. There is no need for a secondary healer and if your group cares about efficiency, then having SCH in that role is a waste. You'd be better off with a BRD/WHM, who can add more support (as they rightfully should) and cover any additional healing that you could possibly need.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Can you not main heal lower content?

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So can a PUP or a SMN. What is your point?

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Can you not nuke as effectively as a black mage excluding procs in 90% of situations?

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Excluding procs? Yea, nice try. On the majority of content that has procs, people are inviting BLM not for their nuking ability but for their proc'ing ability. SCH could nuke better than BLM and it still would not change anything. And if you're been paying attention to the comments in this thread, I'm pretty sure no one is unhappy with our nuking capabilities.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Would you like more procs than black mage, and then black mages sit on sidelines? Would you like to main heal and then white mage on sidelines?

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Would you like to not try and paint everything as black and white and overly simplistic as this? How do you go from reading complaints about SCH's only unique spell procs being removed and then ask if we want more procs than BLM so we can put them aside? Asking to be an effective healer on more content does not mean that it will obsolete WHM.

Your group always took a SCH to Voidwatch because 1) you go with 18 people and have everything you *need* covered 2) SCH actually had unique procs that would warrant bringing the job along 3)your LS leader isn't obsessed with being optimal.

Boost Aldoquium to 2tp/tic, fix the animus spells, implement tier II helices and make them procs (or just return to the pre-adjustment levels for tier I), have Modus Veritas actually land, and give us lower cast time on Regen spells and grant some type of bonus to them. That's what I want. Yes, it's a lot, but none of it will effect your jobs in the way you seem to think.

Oh, and SCH post incoming. They explain their intentions behind lowering the levels of the helices. I have to say, I don't get it. They wanted to give SCH more of a "scholar-like" role earlier on and at higher levels they can become better. . . Let's hope I am lost in translation. They do acknowledge the VW proc issue and admit that it has been discussed by the team.

Camate-san, we'll wait for your official translation of course! I was scratching my head on this one :)

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

Oh, and SCH post incoming. They explain their intentions behind lowering the levels of the helices. I have to say, I don't get it. They wanted to give SCH more of a "scholar-like" role earlier on and at higher levels they can become better. . . Let's hope I am lost in translation. They do acknowledge the VW proc issue and admit that it has been discussed by the team.

Camate-san, we'll wait for your official translation of course! I was scratching my head on this one :)

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I really hope there's more to it than that. Giving every other job access to our only unique proc spells (and unless they've fixed it, our only procs) just so low level Scholars can feel more scholarly is beyond idiotic. Catering to the non-existent low level players is idiotic. Acting like anyone at Lv.30 is actually going to play the job and not leech in Abyssea is idiotic.

There are people at low levels but they're so few they might as well not exist, certainly not enough to justify that bullshit excuse. Making Helices stronger at higher levels? They're going to be the same strength at Lv.60, leave them as they are and increase their strength from Lv.60. It's not rocket science. Heck, treat them like a normal bloody spell set and just add a second tier in starting from Lv.85 rather than have some roundabout "they get stronger a you level" bullshit. Not difficult, SE. I know you were too busy thinking Libra and Animus were amazing additions to the game around Lv.85, but you can still go back and add them in now that you (hopefully) realize what awful additions they actually are.
I find it hard to believe they've actually discussed the Voidwatch issue at all. How would that have gone down? Helices are the only unique stagger proc we have for Voidwatch, there should have been absolutely no discussion, there should have been a uniform "Don't give Helices to /Scholar" from all. Once again they're displaying a grand lack of common sense followed by covering it up with complete bullshit. "Modus Veritas is working as expected" all over again.

Hey Camate, I want to feel like I have a more White Mage or Black Mage role at Lv.30, can you tell the development team to lower the levels of Holy, Flash, all Banish spells, Cure V, Ancient Magic, Elemental Celerity and -aga spells to Lv.30? I'd call it fair game then, but since I'll still be /Red Mage I'll have to ask that Red Mage gets all of that by Lv.30 too; poor fellas need a boost anyhow.
I'm being 100% serious by the way, unless the development team decides to have some common sense. They can completely omit the Dark Arts and Helix duration from this update for all I care, currently it's doing nothing more than completely ruining the rest of what is a quite nice update for Scholar.

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Originally Posted by Sotek

I really hope there's more to it than that. Giving every other job access to our only unique proc spells (and unless they've fixed it, our only procs) just so low level Scholars can feel more scholarly is beyond idiotic. Catering to the non-existent low level players is idiotic. Acting like anyone at Lv.30 is actually going to play the job and not leech in Abyssea is idiotic.

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This was my first thought when I read Sasa's preview too. Why are they making a change to SCH's fundamental unique dark arts function aimed at low level players? Do mobs take any longer to die in GoV than they do In Abyssea to the point that helices would be worth casting at that level? Do people use a helix to solo pages?

Even if there is a major benefit in providing low level SCHs some scholarly stuff, I don't mind the concept of providing unique abilities at low levels and scaling them, but what's wrong with the way it's always been done - with multiple tiers of spells? Basically where BLM gets non-subbable -ga procs because they're different spells, SCH is going to get stuck with the same spell that scales, so anyone /SCH can proc with it?

Silly. SE, can you please change Blizzaga 3 to level 40 and scale it? Thanks. Also, AM from levels 40-49. Or, stop this ridiculous scaling nonsense and just add Helix II and make those proc in VW instead.

As noted above, Mocchi did make a post regarding your job of choice, Scholar. Here it is!

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Originally Posted by Mocchi

I would like to explain the adjustments to the level at which Helix spells are learned and their MP cost.
I should have explained this to you earlier and I’m sorry it's taken awhile to do so.

There are 2 main points to these adjustments:

• Allow scholar-like activity starting at a lower level
• Review Helix spells so that damage and usability are increased at higher levels

We have been reviewing Voidwatch (and its weakness system) within our team, and have been debating this issue pretty heavily.

We understand your concerns very well, but it has been difficult for us to focus on anything other than Voidwatch. With that said, we have decided to consider not only the current situation, but also the future, which is why we decided to allow scholar-like activity from a lower level so that they can participate more actively in the battle content that will be added in the future.

We would also like to increase the merits of using scholar as a main job when using Helix spells, so please continue to submit your feedback on this issue.

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We have been reviewing Voidwatch (and its weakness system) within our team, and have been debating this issue pretty heavily.

We understand your concerns very well, but it has been difficult for us to focus on anything other than Voidwatch. With that said, we have decided to consider not only the current situation, but also the future, which is why we decided to allow scholar-like activity from a lower level so that they can participate more actively in the battle content that will be added in the future.

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This makes absolutely no sense.
They're considering the situation for the future and making an adjustment that only has an effect in the past, or rather no effect at all since none of us currently benefit from lower level Helices, we're all already Lv.95. This adjustment is nothing more than a boon to any job that subs Scholar (White Mage springs to mind), Lv.40 Scholars aren't going to be doing Voidwatch or any end game event for that matter, giving them Helices has absolutely no effect. There are no low level events worth mentioning and EXP mobs will die before Helices even manage two tics; though maybe that's appropriate as at lower levels they wont even have a long duration.

Seriously, there is no logic in this move what-so-ever. I'd love to hear their debate over Voidwatch. I seriously have no idea how anyone could have reached the conclusion that this was a worthwhile adjustment to make. It does nothing for lower level players; there are none and even if there are Helices will be worthless at that level. It does nothing but bad for Scholar; you've given away 8/10 of our unique procs to any White Mage, the remaining two don't even work. Lower MP cost is negligible, I'd take lower cast time instead. Stronger Helices don't require dropping their level, be that a second tier, grading them by level or more sensibly grading them by Elemental skill.
Letting us participate more actively in battle content? What does that even mean? The only way that makes sense is that since Helices are a lower level, /Scholar can use them rather than Scholar main using them and that's just a bundle of sheer stupidity. They only other way I can possibly make sense of this is if future content is going back to having level caps and well, I don't even want to consider that.

Cut the Dark Arts and Helix section out of this update completely; heck never consider an adjustment to them again if you're this inept. It does nothing but ruin what is otherwise a great update.
It truly is amazing how they've got me off complaining at a non-update for Modus Veritas with this bullshit.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

As noted above, Mocchi did make a post regarding your job of choice, Scholar. Here it is!

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Hmm if this is all that is being considered at the moment for helixes i will have to add that they are fairly underpowered for most content. They are good on weak mobs but the duration means nothing in these cases and the low dmg value on top of the slow pace of the damage over time really leave a lot to be desired. Add on top of all that the only respectable way to power it up with our job ability, it will fail to activate on most monsters.
Feedback/opinion to help helix:
- better base damage
and/or
- make the damage over time quicker (normal 1 tic rounds)
(both of these could be adjusted by level as well)

- MAKE MODUS VERITA NOT MISS
(this is a must, there is no reason for them NOT to fix this, it was a terrible solution to the overpower conjunction of this ability across multiple sch and should be addressed)

It makes me wonder though with all these adjustments to what level spells are learned if the new 99 end game (seperate from Voidwatch) will be something kind of like Salvage, where instead of starting with no access to armor/abilities, your level is scaled down and the higher you climb the higher your level goes. It would make sense as to when they say more battle content to be added because I can't see them adding completly capped events and they made leveling a mute thing so people probably don't even use the spells so much on the climb to 75, and just learn them all when they're there. It's only really 75+ where you start awaiting spells and even then it takes a few hours max to level into the ones you want.

I just think it's too much of a rush to call it all illogical because they do seem to be preparing a lot for what's to come over what is already here.

Unless every event has a Salvage-style level cap this isn't worth it. We're practically worthless for Voidwatch, but possibly useful for an undisclosed event? Yeah, I'm not buying it. This isn't a fair trade no matter how you paint it.

Even if it was, having Helix II ~Lv.40, Helix III ~Lv.60 and Helix IV ~Lv.80, with III and IV acting as procs, would still be by far the better option than this stupidity.

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Originally Posted by Sotek

This makes absolutely no sense.
They're considering the situation for the future and making an adjustment that only has an effect in the past, or rather no effect at all since none of us currently benefit from lower level Helices, we're all already Lv.95. This adjustment is nothing more than a boon to any job that subs Scholar (White Mage springs to mind), Lv.40 Scholars aren't going to be doing Voidwatch or any end game event for that matter, giving them Helices has absolutely no effect. There are no low level events worth mentioning and EXP mobs will die before Helices even manage two tics; though maybe that's appropriate as at lower levels they wont even have a long duration.

Seriously, there is no logic in this move what-so-ever. I'd love to hear their debate over Voidwatch. I seriously have no idea how anyone could have reached the conclusion that this was a worthwhile adjustment to make. It does nothing for lower level players; there are none and even if there are Helices will be worthless at that level. It does nothing but bad for Scholar; you've given away 8/10 of our unique procs to any White Mage, the remaining two don't even work. Lower MP cost is negligible, I'd take lower cast time instead. Stronger Helices don't require dropping their level, be that a second tier, grading them by level or more sensibly grading them by Elemental skill.
Letting us participate more actively in battle content? What does that even mean? The only way that makes sense is that since Helices are a lower level, /Scholar can use them rather than Scholar main using them and that's just a bundle of sheer stupidity. They only other way I can possibly make sense of this is if future content is going back to having level caps and well, I don't even want to consider that.

Cut the Dark Arts and Helix section out of this update completely; heck never consider an adjustment to them again if you're this inept. It does nothing but ruin what is otherwise a great update.
It truly is amazing how they've got me off complaining at a non-update for Modus Veritas with this bullshit.

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I could see dropping the level of Helixes if they are going to add in a few stronger tiers of them; tier 2 stops at around level 75, tier 3 for level 99. This way they could keep them at about the same power for a lower cost and scale up them up by power and cost accordingly. Add in tier 2s to the current Voidwatch procs and tier 3s at the level 99 cap release Voidwatch Ops. You could leave the tier 1s so that it would be a comparable to subbing BLM or WHM, but require tier 2s so that there is an actual reason to bring a SCH even if it is a lame proc reason as opposed to the job bringing something to the table.

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Originally Posted by Rexen

It makes me wonder though with all these adjustments to what level spells are learned if the new 99 end game (seperate from Voidwatch) will be something kind of like Salvage, where instead of starting with no access to armor/abilities, your level is scaled down and the higher you climb the higher your level goes. It would make sense as to when they say more battle content to be added because I can't see them adding completly capped events and they made leveling a mute thing so people probably don't even use the spells so much on the climb to 75, and just learn them all when they're there. It's only really 75+ where you start awaiting spells and even then it takes a few hours max to level into the ones you want.

I just think it's too much of a rush to call it all illogical because they do seem to be preparing a lot for what's to come over what is already here.

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Good lord, no, no, no no no no. No more level caps. It was a bad idea when the game started, it is a worse idea now.

I am almost on the floor in the fetal position at the thought of this. I lived through unnerfed CoP, I cannot handle any more level caps in my life.

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Originally Posted by Sotek

Unless every event has a Salvage-style level cap this isn't worth it. We're practically worthless for Voidwatch, but possibly useful for an undisclosed event? Yeah, I'm not buying it. This isn't a fair trade no matter how you paint it.

Even if it was, having Helix II ~Lv.40, Helix III ~Lv.60 and Helix IV ~Lv.80, with III and IV acting as procs, would still be by far the better option than this stupidity.

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Well, not every event had atma, but a melee job not having a critical hit weaponskill killed it in Abyssea. If the new armor in this new event is highly saught after then it would make sense really lol.

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Originally Posted by Septimus

Good lord, no, no, no no no no. No more level caps. It was a bad idea when the game started, it is a worse idea now.

I am almost on the floor in the fetal position at the thought of this. I lived through unnerfed CoP, I cannot handle any more level caps in my life.

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I don't see how it would be so different to Salvage. I'm sure the monsters in there were scaled down the same as you, they died fast even when everyone was naked and had no weapons so I don't see how this would be different, if it existed at all, it is just a theory lol. CoP level caps were there to pose a constant challenge that leveling couldn't over come and, although I didn't do it when they were first added, towards the end when I did do them I had fun and I'm glad I did experience it before the caps were removed.

One thing it would do if anything would make people get to know their jobs for all the levels and it would be something new. Since a lot of the partying is skipped now, and half the levels aren't even seen except with a "/item "forbidden key" <t>" macro, it would give people a chance to see what it was like. I can't think of any other reason why they would be so bothered about levels when people get through them at a ridiculous rate right now.

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Well, not every event had atma, but a melee job not having a critical hit weaponskill killed it in Abyssea. If the new armor in this new event is highly saught after then it would make sense really lol.

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There's no confirmation of this new event, though. In fact, they only event they've really detailed in coming updates is Voidwatch, so lets drop this hypothetical event for now; the matter still stands that Helix ~ Helix IV is still a better solution than this idiocy. Feel free to bring Abyssea up as well though. We were completely screwed out of that, too.

It's pretty obviously that they didn't do this to makes schs feel more "scholar-like" early on. If this was the actual reason the spells would have been sch exclusive like afflatus for whm and voidwatch wouldn't have even been an issue. It seems SE just wants sch to be a subjob. First accesion / manifestation were given away. Then most of storms and klimaform. Now the helices are purposely lowered to subjob level. I'm waiting for SE to make all storms subbable too. What will we have at 99 that really matters? All that we have gained from the level cap is some lame 1 tp/tic regain and some enmity spells that barely make a difference. We also have immanence which we can't use in a party set up because of all the wss and perpetuance which is hindered by nms constant use of dispeling abilities.

The Regen enhancements also do nothing for schs healing issues. 50hp/tic isn't even that much. It's roughly 1000hp/minute which is less than 1 cure V that can be done in around 1 second.

This update seems more for whm and blm to use /sch in voidwatch than for sch.

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since none of us currently benefit from lower level Helices, we're all already Lv.95.

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Sorry, not everyone has leveled every job to 95. Some haven't by choice, and there are still newer and returning people from time to time.

Oh look who it is bring not-posts to the table once more.

Yes I'm aware there are people so wrong in the head that they'll reach Lv.30 and choose not to level in Abyssea. That's completely beside the point.

Well I obviously don't know what new events are coming but if they are level capped and that's why helix spells have been lowered then I'd rather SCH just have nothing unique to do there. Seriously, level capped garbage is about the worst thing I can imagine for future content. We spend 2 years making level 80+ armor and they add level cap junk for the future? A huge no thanks on that.

In any case, I don't understand the point of scaling the spells instead of just adding more tiers like EVERY OTHER JOB. Those tiers could be used to proc in VW so we don't have this obsolete SCH end game situation getting worse.

This is one of those times I really want a dislike button. A lot.

Oh Camate, how I hoped my Japanese had failed me. Sadly, my translation was correct. I just don't understand the rationale behind this.

Scholar like ability at low levels. There are a few things wrong with this. While I do think it is important to consider all levels, the game has changed so much that I do not think a change of this magnitude is warranted. Considering how incredibly easy it is to level these days, any budding SCH will not be going long before the reached level 50. Also, I think that there are plenty of SCH-like "activities" at those levels already. We have Light/Dark Arts and a few stratagems. Most jobs take a while before they really heat up.

As far as strengthening Helices, that clearly did not require this change. As others have said, additional tiers could have been added. There was plenty of room from 75 onwards to add more spells. Judging by the comments though, it doesn't sound like that is the route the team is headed. (Note: Be prepared for serious anger from SCHs if *at least* tier II helices aren't added.) If we are stuck with the same helix spells, you simply could have had them scale with Elemental Magic or tweak the bonus from Dark Arts.

The Voidwatch comments are also troubling. I would hope that the team would have realized the impact this would have on the job. The fact that it was hotly discussed and still implemented is discouraging. The proc system in VW seemed like it was a direct answer to Abyssea's. So many jobs were left out of that system and it seemed like the team was looking to make Voidwatch more inviting. This change really pins the nail on the coffin for SCH in that respect.

As someone else said, perhaps the team is coming up with more events that would require SCHs to have those spells at lower levels. (I cringe at the thought of more level caps.) Those events would have to be real endgame activities with endgame rewards to balance this out. I am highly doubtful that will be the case though.

This was more of a buff for /SCH than SCH main. The dev. team has to understand this. Making Helix spells more powerful for SCH main won't fix this. No group invites BLM because Tornado or WatergaIII are great spells. They do because they are potential procs. Unless you buff Helix spells to such a level that they are broken, it will not convince most groups to take a SCH because it simply isn't needed.

I'd also like to add the the JP SCH's are equally upset. I've posted there and read the comments. The feelings are pretty universal. I hope you will consider them carefully. This adjustment may have created more problems than it actually fixed. :(

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

In any case, I don't understand the point of scaling the spells instead of just adding more tiers like EVERY OTHER JOB.

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I'm beginning to wonder if it is because of limitations to how many new spells the game can hold. They don't want to "waste" spells on more tiers of Helices, so they are doing this instead.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

I'm beginning to wonder if it is because of limitations to how many new spells the game can hold. They don't want to "waste" spells on more tiers of Helices, so they are doing this instead.

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Yeah I keep hearing this. If that's the case my vote still stands. I'd rather be able to come SCH in current end game that will probably continue for a while than whatever this hypothetical new activity is. We already managed to get left out of Abyssea with a grab bag of practical joke additions. I don't want to see it again here with VW. And like I said if the new event is level capped I'll be skipping it entirely, so no need to worry about bringing my SCH to it.

While I won't pretend to understand what job will benefit from sub usable Helix spells in a major way, I think I have a solution for all the Scholars who want Scholar only Helix procs.

Only allow Helix spells under the effect of Immanence to proc.

Yes, it costs a stratagem, but it would allow the devs to have their sub usable Helix spells without hurting Scholar only proccing too bad (while I'm not going to debate whether or not Scholars would get invited or not if they didn't have unique procs, I will strongly state that there are other good reasons for Scholars to come to Voidwatch aside from proccing welfare). Also, it would sortof fit the picture of Scholar's being tactical mages.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

While I won't pretend to understand what job will benefit from sub usable Helix spells in a major way

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I give up!

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Originally Posted by Economizer

I will strongly state that there are other good reasons for Scholars to come to Voidwatch

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I've still yet to hear you give a good one.

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Originally Posted by Mocchi

We understand your concerns very well, but it has been difficult for us to focus on anything other than Voidwatch. With that said, we have decided to consider not only the current situation, but also the future, which is why we decided to allow scholar-like activity from a lower level so that they can participate more actively in the battle content that will be added in the future.

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Thank you for removing my hopes for tier II helices and replacing them with an all-consuming fear that level-capped content is on the dark and perilous horizon.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

While I won't pretend to understand what job will benefit from sub usable Helix spells in a major way, I think I have a solution for all the Scholars who want Scholar only Helix procs.

Only allow Helix spells under the effect of Immanence to proc.

Yes, it costs a stratagem, but it would allow the devs to have their sub usable Helix spells without hurting Scholar only proccing too bad (while I'm not going to debate whether or not Scholars would get invited or not if they didn't have unique procs, I will strongly state that there are other good reasons for Scholars to come to Voidwatch aside from proccing welfare). Also, it would sortof fit the picture of Scholar's being tactical mages.

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The problem is there are any number of things they could do, I can think of a million easy tweaks. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than removing the spells from subjobs like the Afflatus JAs. And I understand that Mocchi said they want to look at ways to make SCH main more useful, but regardless of the words we have two years of 76-95 actions that say the exact opposite, including one of the worst ones with this update after they already made the "SCH main more useful" statement. I'm not holding my breath any more, and at this point I'm kind of done making suggestions just to see this kind of nonsense in the end.

EDIT
Yeah so I just told my LS about this helix adjustment and naturally the first response was "lol I guess you get to come WHM/SCH to VW now..."

Before I go to bed infuriated by this new nerf to SCH, I'm going to second Sotek's suggestion that SE just scrap the helix adjustments for this update completely. In fact, I'd prefer absolutely no updates to SCH than to have helix spells subbable. Whatever miniscule amount of utility would be added with the regen adjustments, it's going to be completely washed out by the helix change.

Just do something simple and make MV stop missing and not stack. That can't be hard, and every SCH would like it.

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

It doesn't have to be any more complicated than removing the spells from subjobs like the Afflatus JAs.

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Bad design. Good design would be allowing the JA but with nerfs like they did it for years before on things that would be considered too powerful. Some buffs aren't too powerful, like Convert. Some would be considered too powerful from a sub job, like Accession or Meditate.

From a sub Scholar perspective, I don't see a strong reason for Helix spells being at a sub usable level, outside of a proc system. Jobs that nuke will be able to nuke without them, and jobs that don't won't really use them anyways at higher levels from what I see. Maybe there are niche uses (a level capped BCNM or two comes to mind), but generally this won't be affecting job balance outside of proc welfare.

From a Scholar main standpoint, in terms of flavor of the job, Scholar is augmented by heavy use of job abilities. Rather then adding more spells, I'd rather see these job abilities augment the spells in major ways, especially for Scholar main. While things like tier 2 helix spells and tier 2 storm spells would fit Scholar well, being able to get the equivalents of these via arts and stratagem usage would fit Scholar better, at least in my opinion, even when it comes to proc welfare. Even if it took more coding work.

On Helix spells in general, if SE decides they are going to go ahead with lower level Helix spells that scale with level, I think a passable alternative to straight up Helix 2 spells would either be my previous suggestion. A good alternative to Helix 2 spells would be dual helix spells that work with Immanence to create more complex skillchains, and happen to be the new procs.

Helix spells usable at a lower level may or may not be a good idea dependent on how SE deals with it, but ultimately, I'm not going to spend my time arguing against the direction SE wants to go with the game considering that they still are going in that direction despite some protests on the JP and NA boards, at least in this case. I'm going to try to suggest something that fits both the dev's goals and the player's. It might not be the best solution for players, people might spew venom rather then explain their feelings rationally about it on occasion, but I feel that it is the more realistic solution.

I'm not at all concerned with whether or not it's considered "bad design" from some sort of scholastic or purist point of view. I'd prefer a simple pragmatic solution to a problem everyone else sees. No one would miss subbable helix spells. You can keep following the FFXI 101 design handbook, I'll keep suggesting they stop going this direction since we have a test server and a feedback forum for such things.

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

I'll keep suggesting they stop going this direction since we have a test server and a feedback forum for such things.

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Perhaps Scholars will manage to get sub usable Helix spells blocked. I don't think it would overly affect anyone outside of procs. This has a pretty good chance of even being the best solution to the issue - even if SE went along with Helix spells scaling up with level, I don't think there would be much difference if Helix spells were just learned at level 50 or 55 if they really wanted to lower the level on them.

All that said, I just think that given how much SE's team seems to want this change, there should be suggestions that work with it too, in addition to just saying that Helix spells shouldn't be adjusted in level. If the dev team is willing to be flexible, we should be too in our feedback. It is more of a back up plan of sorts, kind of like saying, "I would much prefer A, but if you must go with B, please make C adjustments to the idea."

So please, keep up the pressure in what you want, I don't think it is unreasonable to say Helix spells shouldn't be sub usable. Just be willing to discuss alternatives if the changes SE is making end up going through. :D

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Originally Posted by Mocchi

We understand your concerns very well, but it has been difficult for us to focus on anything other than Voidwatch.

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First, I don't think the dev team or the community reps understand our concerns very well.

And if the dev team truly can't focus on anything other than VW at the moment, then how about they finally add that "Add spoils to treasure pool" option we've all been asking for.

kthxbai <.<

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Originally Posted by Economizer

All that said, I just think that given how much SE's team seems to want this change, there should be suggestions that work with it too, in addition to just saying that Helix spells shouldn't be adjusted in level. If the dev team is willing to be flexible, we should be too in our feedback. It is more of a back up plan of sorts, kind of like saying, "I would much prefer A, but if you must go with B, please make C adjustments to the idea."

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The issue I have with this is that there is literally no reason for them to lower the level of Helices. When they have no conceivable reason to do this it's very hard to cut them some slack.

Letting lower level Scholars feel more scholarly is a non-reason and quite clearly bullshit, or at the very least extremely poorly thought out; be it through a new level capped end game event that the majority of people are going to hate, or simply not understanding the current level system that badly.
Adjusting the strength of them, again, doesn't require their level to be dropped. Another non-reason.

I'd be flexible with them if they'd be honest with us. If they came out and said "We don't want Scholar to be useful for our stupid Stagger system", I'd be flexible, pissed off, but flexible. As it is, I'm just pissed off. Eight Helices isn't exactly the twenty four unique spells Black Mage gets for Stagger, but it was a start. Now White Mage gets them all, thanks SE.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

I'm beginning to wonder if it is because of limitations to how many new spells the game can hold. They don't want to "waste" spells on more tiers of Helices, so they are doing this instead.

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Was about to say.
They already mentioned in some post in the past that they are "running out of space" for new JAs and new spells.
It's fine, we don't need Tier II helixes. Making Helixes stronger is very welcome indeed but losing our uniquness totally is not.

I still don't get the point of this choice, Mocchi's post makes no sense to me. Either I'm missing something to understand their perspective, or it's an excuse.

Mocchi made a lengthy follow-up to yesterday's post, and I want to make sure you're aware of some of the reasoning behind some of the changes that are taking place.

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Originally Posted by Mocchi

Let me start by explaining our new policy.

As you all know, the level cap will be raised to 99 soon. After that, as I mentioned elsewhere, we are planning on implementing various other adjustments, such as reviewing merit point categories.

Considering these changes, although it may take longer to finalize, some jobs will require fundamental overhaul instead of minor adjustments.

For example, for puppetmasters we plan on re-examining every attachment and the AI logic of automatons. For corsair we plan on re-evaluating every roll. Similarly, we would like to adjust the fundamentals of scholar, namely light & dark arts and Helix spells.

I’m sorry for making similar requests two days in a row, but please understand that we are making adjustments so that scholar becomes a useful job all around and not just a tool for procing weakness in Voidwatch content.

Regarding whether being able to use Helix spells starting at a lower level is right or wrong, we understand that it is possible to level up in Grounds of Valor and Abyssea with the help of other players, but we do not consider that standard procedure. This is the same reasoning as why job adjustments do not factor in leveling in Abyssea areas as a standard issue.

Next up are Helix spells.

Instead of shortening the time in between damage dealt over time, we would like to establish that damage is dealt every 10 seconds. We also plan on increasing the amount of damage dealt and fixing the effect duration at 90 seconds instead of 45-90 seconds. We will prepare these changes in time for the next test server update.

Regarding accuracy, Helix spells are set to have similar accuracy as tier IV black magic spells, so we will not be adjusting their accuracy. Instead, we decided to stabilize Helix spells by fixing damage dealt and their effect duration.

This is a bit off-topic, but regarding the effects of "Adloquium," we decided not to adjust its base stats. In the future, we plan on looking into introducing gear that enhances the effect.

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*Updated the statement regarding "Adloquium" as it was unclear.

Wait, there's gear that enhances Adloquium? This is news to me.