Raise the Minimum Requirement for entering Abyssea to Lv70 or 75

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Originally Posted by Panthera

My totally wrong opinion

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You people really need to get out of this idea that you should only get exp for participation when that's simply not how it works. The only people who care are self rightgous Dudley Dorights such as yourself who are the minority.

wait, wait, wait, did Panthera REALLY just say if you get exp from a quest in abyssea from 30-75, THATS CHEATING?

So I guess SE should disable getting any exp from quests in abyssea too between 30-75?

Oh wow, completely missed the exp scrolls is cheating, that's just golden.

so I guess doing Streetsweeper or the like campaign ops below 75 is cheating as well?

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Originally Posted by Panthera

If you got cooking skills for casting Lullaby on an Aern, which is a very strange thing to be doing to begin with, something is off. I don't see why SE designed getting points for a combat stat system from doing non combat activites this way. It's not logical. If you got fishing skills for chatting with an NPC, that makes no sense, so I don't see why talking to an NPC (Dominion OPs) when you haven't participated actively in the battle should give you experience points. That's why I have a problem with some campaign ops.

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Have you ever been an apprentice? You don't start out pounding away on an anvil, or running the drill press. You start out sweeping the floor. You will still learn buckets about working metal just by being there, even though you're not doing a thing to help, other than keeping the shop clean.

Knights start out as Squires, Squires start out as Pages. Pages are glorified errand-boys, who do next-to-nothing to do with fighting. Cleaning out stables, delivering anything the Knight needs sent, setting up a tent--that's what Pages do. They will learn plenty about how to be a Knight in the process of this. Squires manage armor, clean weapons, saddle the horse, carry packs, and cook food. They don't use a sword, but they watch the Knight train and fight. They learn lots in the process, even though they are not doing it themselves. Keymasters are there watching high-level players fight high-level mobs. Why shouldn't they get secondhand experience points (which is what they do get) from this?

Keymasters are actively participating in Aby groups. No, they are not fighting, but they are active in the group.

I can understand why ppl prefer a dedicated keymaster (or two, so they can trade off AFK's for RL such as WC/food/etc) in Aby groups - that way the rest of the group are able to solely focus on the battles.

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Originally Posted by DrStrangelove

5. In no place EXCEPT Abyssea is it possible for a level 30 character to gain XP while killing mobs in an alliance with a level 75+ character. In short, SE specifically CHANGED the code to allow low level players to gain XP. This proves that not only was this not an oversight, it was intended.

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Not true. It's always been possible to leech characters. I used to do it on evil weapons in sky and on colibri at the bird camp. Just barely anyone did because they thought 45-60 exp a kill was bad, while forgetting to realise that level 75 parties kill a lot faster. That's why this debate now surprises me. It's always been possible to leech but no one ever cared before.

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Originally Posted by Mrbeansman

You people really need to get out of this idea that you should only get exp for participation when that's simply not how it works. The only people who care are self rightgous Dudley Dorights such as yourself who are the minority.

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@Panthera: I've no idea why you continue to debate against these people. The only reason they're still here, is because they need to defend they're own moralistic viewpoint and criticize ours. You are calling them out for "cheating" so they need to defend that it is not, to save themselves from feeling guilty. The moment you started to elaborate on "leeching as cheating" the argument turned in the opposite direction. At this point, they probably just view you as a religious preacher, trying to explain and uphold commandments such as "thou shall not cheat".

Your posts are strong. That's the only reason this thread has lasted so long. But when you break down the walls too far, people feel insecure about being out in the open. They will need to build those walls back up and target you as the enemy for trying to show them something they are not ready to see. They will not understand your intentions, and it will continue to be personal attack after personal attack, so save your self some dignity for at least trying.

Nothing good will come from the rest of this thread, so let the issue go and face the facts of reality. Stop allowing them to retaliate in a rude manner. You're giving them the opportunity to demean you and they're relishing in it. The thread tags only prove this to be true.

So panthra thinks every quest in WoW is also cheating, by the way you come off anything outside of your point of view is cheating. I know not the same game but same principle. SE nerfed afk buff spam soon after it was found. Abyssea been out out a year, if they thought it was cheating then they would have done something bout it. Instead they add another way to leech.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

@Panthera: I've no idea why you continue to debate against these people. The only reason they're still here, is because they need to defend they're own moralistic viewpoint and criticize ours. You are calling them out for "cheating" so they need to defend that it is not, to save themselves from feeling guilty. The moment you started to elaborate on "leeching as cheating" the argument turned in the opposite direction. At this point, they probably just view you as a religious preacher, trying to explain and uphold commandments such as "thou shall not cheat".

Your posts are strong. That's the only reason this thread has lasted so long. But when you break down the walls too far, people feel insecure about being out in the open. They will need to build those walls back up and target you as the enemy for trying to show them something they are not ready to see. They will not understand your intentions, and it will continue to be personal attack after personal attack, so save your self some dignity for at least trying.

Nothing good will come from the rest of this thread, so let the issue go and face the facts of reality. Stop allowing them to retaliate in a rude manner. You're giving them the opportunity to demean you and they're relishing in it. The thread tags only prove this to be true.

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We treat you like preachy preachers because you sound preachy. You're imposing on our style of gameplay with weak and overcited examples of your definition of cheating. In any democratic process, yes, the majority IS correct. You need to get over the idea that just because you are a minority, you are not incorrect. You are incorrect by popular census. Your ideas suck by popular census. You are controlling and feel a need to dictate the way everyone else plays, and attempt to justify that by saying that anyone who disagrees is immature or not2bright.

Imagine a town hall meeting. Everything is pretty much wrapping up and everyone wants to get home and get on with their lives. There's this guy though, he keeps standing up and asking for action against the new hay bail loading system because it requires less work. Everyone else in the meeting dismisses the idea and the mayor is attempting to adjourn the meeting. This guy just won't stop though. He harps, preaches, whines and even makes accusations of cheating and laziness.

Who is being immature? We just want this meeting adjourned.

By the way, how are your interactions IRL? At work? Do you harp on your coworkers for being lazy or cheating? Do you have that obsessive need to control every aspect of your life as you do in Vana'diel? You probably aren't very popular or well-liked IRL either. You just need to relax broseph. You go against the grain just for the sake of going against the grain, instead of letting life flow naturally in a manner that would be more enjoyable for yourself and everyone around you. Once you come over to "our" side, you'll see that the grass is much, much less green on your side, and how silly you've made yourself look so far.

I'm not really against abyssea leeching but I think it would be nice if there were more engrossing ways to gain exp that rewarded the player with similar exp (looking at you FoV and your rewards that make you wonder why you bothered).

edit: would be interesting if you couldn't earn limit points inside abyssea :3

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

By the way, how are your interactions IRL? At work? Do you harp on your coworkers for being lazy or cheating? Do you have that obsessive need to control every aspect of your life as you do in Vana'diel? You probably aren't very popular or well-liked IRL either. You just need to relax broseph. You go against the grain just for the sake of going against the grain, instead of letting life flow naturally in a manner that would be more enjoyable for yourself and everyone around you. Once you come over to "our" side, you'll see that the grass is much, much less green on your side, and how silly you've made yourself look so far.

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Personal attack after personal attack.

And seriously, an analogy between exping the old way and obtaining a Purple Heart? Megalomania much?

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Personal attack after personal attack.

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Not really, if you actually read. I'm giving you advice on how to change your faulty mindset, so that you can enjoy life. I'm not attacking you, but your poisonous way of thinking. You can't live a healthy adult life with an attitude like that because you're not going to be allowed to control people in the way you want.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Personal attack after personal attack.

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Hi Hypocrisy, my name is Narcissistic Megalomaniac.

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Originally Posted by Catsby

I'm not really against abyssea leeching but I think it would be nice if there were more engrossing ways to gain exp that rewarded the player with similar exp (looking at you FoV and your rewards that make you wonder why you bothered).

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Indeed. What if FoV would auto-reactivate each time you completed it, but for exp only. That way you'd only need to run back to the book once a day to get tabs, which would coincide with needing to reapply refresh and regen.

FoVs were more worth it before the exp was increased, but now they have fallen behind because of the time needed just to run back to the page.

Double FoV EXP and we're talking. And put manuals in even more areas. Uleguerand, tavnazia zones, why not even in Sea? The field manuals managed to get their way through the gate of the gods, why not up to Lumoria as well?

And just add a few ways to kill vanadiel monsters even faster, then no one would bother with these arguments cause they could do things real fast outside of abyssea anyway.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

@Panthera: The only reason they're still here, is because they need to defend they're own moralistic viewpoint and criticize ours.

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Pot. Meet Kettle.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Personal attack after personal attack.

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He's right you know.

Also, I love how after nearly a decade SE finally fix leveling issues people have been complaining about, and all of a sudden they want to go back.

SE made it possible for two types of players to level. The one who is more concerned about reaching the level cap faster and the one more concerned with taking their time "learning" (lol) their jobs. What I don't get is, why must there be only one way? I've never heard anyone who is pro keywhoring/leeching in abyssea once say they should get rid of EXP in outside areas/make it harder to EXP. Most of them are in favor of adjusting old content (campaign for example) to give more EXP/make it easier leveling. Yet nearly all the people who I talk to who dislike Abyssea leveling claim they should raise the level cap to stop low levels from leveling in Abyssea.

Their reasons seem to be:
1. It would make building low level parties easier.
2. It would reinvigorate the AH/economy for crafters to make more low level equipment.
3. You don't "learn" your job.
4. You get to "explore" new areas.

Well first off, sure it would make building low level parties easier, but there isn't a want for it. Face it, the majority of people wish to focus on endgame content instead of spending their time in low level exp parties. If you really can't find 1-5 more people who want to static exp with you then you are probably in the minority when it comes to wanting low level parties. Crafting low level gear usually wasn't profitable, they did it to skill up on and hope to break even. If it did reinvigorate the economy, chances are it would be overinflated due to high demand. If it really must take you 45 levels of doing the same thing you've been doing since level 1 to learn your job, then go ahead and do it, but most competent players (Read: competent, THF/DNCs who fulltime full aurore and NQ +4 STR rings since they dinged 90 3 months ago are not competent). Though many jobs are really just the same and shouldn't take you more than a few hours messing around with it in the tree while skilling up to get the grasp of it. If going to one corner of the map and staying there for hours is called "exploring" then idk i just, idk anymore.

Alkalinehoe is spot on. wouldn't do anything for low levels see how before abyssea low level were already dead outside of the best camps even then might see one party there. People only made low level gear to skill up but crafting gear was never a good way to make gil, people don't level woodworking to make gear.

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Originally Posted by Alkalinehoe

then you are probably in the minority when it comes to wanting low level parties.

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This minority that people speak of, is not as small as everyone thinks.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

@Panthera: I've no idea why you continue to debate against these people. The only reason they're still here, is because they need to defend they're own moralistic viewpoint and criticize ours. You are calling them out for "cheating" so they need to defend that it is not, to save themselves from feeling guilty. The moment you started to elaborate on "leeching as cheating" the argument turned in the opposite direction. At this point, they probably just view you as a religious preacher, trying to explain and uphold commandments such as "thou shall not cheat".

Your posts are strong. That's the only reason this thread has lasted so long. But when you break down the walls too far, people feel insecure about being out in the open. They will need to build those walls back up and target you as the enemy for trying to show them something they are not ready to see. They will not understand your intentions, and it will continue to be personal attack after personal attack, so save your self some dignity for at least trying.

Nothing good will come from the rest of this thread, so let the issue go and face the facts of reality. Stop allowing them to retaliate in a rude manner. You're giving them the opportunity to demean you and they're relishing in it. The thread tags only prove this to be true.

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I only see you and Panthera being draconian while attempting to impose a play style on all other players, regardless as to what those players like and what SE has made available.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

This minority that people speak of, is not as small as everyone thinks.

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A minority is a minority no matter how small it is.

Well if thats the case, you shouldnt be having any problems making low level parties out side of abyssea then should you?

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Originally Posted by Akujima

This minority that people speak of, is not as small as everyone thinks.

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To reiterate, if you cannot find 1-5 people to exp with you out of a usual 2k+ server population, then you are in a small minority.

Edit: beaten!

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2. It would reinvigorate the AH/economy for crafters to make more low level equipment.

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This argument is moot now anyway. At least on my server the Auction House is well stocked with low level gear, it's day and night compared to before the patch.

Only ones that don't like leech are the same ones that were to lazy in the past to make thier own parties, all you got to do to leech.

I'll just leave this right here.

Edit: The above is a link, in case that wasn't clear.

Joined a pt of 6 for Exp? Cheating
Soloing mobs for Exp? Cheating
Made a mule to hold gear? Cheating
Used the Wiki? Cheating
Asked someone for advice? Cheating
Went Afk? Cheating
Changed gear while using a JA? Cheating
Started playing FFXI? Cheating
Zoned? Cheating
Warped? Cheating
Blood warped? Botting
Died? Cheating

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Originally Posted by Myrrh

Joined a pt of 6 for Exp? Cheating
Soloing mobs for Exp? Cheating
Made a mule to hold gear? Cheating
Used the Wiki? Cheating
Asked someone for advice? Cheating
Went Afk? Cheating
Changed gear while using a JA? Cheating
Started playing FFXI? Cheating
Zoned? Cheating
Warped? Cheating
Blood warped? Botting
Died? Cheating

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Indeed. It sounds like we deserve a paddlin'.

"Talking out of turn... that's a paddlin'. Looking out the window... that's a paddlin'. Staring at my sandals... that's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe... you better believe that's a paddlin'."
-Jasper

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

Indeed. It sounds like we deserve a paddlin'.

"Talking out of turn... that's a paddlin'. Looking out the window... that's a paddlin'. Staring at my sandals... that's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe... you better believe that's a paddlin'."
-Jasper

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EXP chests are bad, m'kay?

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Originally Posted by Myrrh

Joined a pt of 6 for Exp? Cheating
Soloing mobs for Exp? Cheating
Made a mule to hold gear? Cheating
Used the Wiki? Cheating
Asked someone for advice? Cheating
Went Afk? Cheating
Changed gear while using a JA? Cheating
Started playing FFXI? Cheating
Zoned? Cheating
Warped? Cheating
Blood warped? Botting
Died? Cheating

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When this post gets as much or nearly as much likes as the OP (which should have much more publicity) you know that there is a problem with the original idea.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

When this post gets as much or nearly as much likes as the OP (which should have much more publicity) you know that there is a problem with the original idea.

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There is nothing wrong with being apart of the minority. Just because an angry mob attacks you, doesn't mean that we should give up and join them. Those amongst the minority are forced to learn their lessons the hard way, because the majority refuse to learn their lessons at all.

I know where these forums are heading. They're heading into a clash of who can withstand the longest belittling. Those who "win" are those who don't cave in. There wont be any equal compromise or collaborative efforts, about how to work towards creating a healthy balance. Anyone who speaks out about a topic they believe has merit, will just be consistently attacked and drown out, pushed to the side and ridiculed.

So there you go. You won. But not because you are right, but because you are the majority.

I see no reason to post further, in this thread or any other.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

hey're heading into a clash of who can withstand the longest belittling. Those who "win" are those who don't cave in. There wont be any equal compromise or collaborative efforts, about how to work towards creating a healthy balance. Anyone who speaks out about a topic they believe has merit, will just be consistently attacked and drown out, pushed to the side and ridiculed.

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WHAT DID I JUST READ!?

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Originally Posted by Akujima

I see no reason to post further, in this thread or any other.

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If I had a nickel.

Protip: If you're in such an extreme minority and cannot simply deal with the things you don't like (like everyone else), you are always welcome to try out different games.

You are not required to play FFXI just because it has history and has "Final Fantasy" in the title.

He has said several times he was done posting but yet, he keeps responding, lol.

Stick to your guns man!

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Originally Posted by Akujima

You won. But not because you are right, but because you are the majority.

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Of course winning doesn't make us right. But being right to begin with sure helps with winning.

The problem is Akujima you can't expect people to bend to how you think this game should be. People like abyssea. I know that you don't and that's fine. But you can't expect everyone to agree with you. It is a matter of opinion. And we all know that everyone has their own Opinions.

Here is an example of my opinion, I happen to like Old school PT's. By Old school I mean a party with a Tank 2 DD's that skill chain BLM for magic bursting, RDM and WHM. As a BLM i had asked many PT's to make skill chain's. Once I was told that "It would kill the mob to fast so no." or heres another fav "But that weapon skill sucks for damage." While both are true I don't see a prob with a mob dieing fast lol. But I do understand that DD's like to use there highest damage weaponskill. Even if it means that during the leveling process many BLM's didn't learn to Magic burst. Can I force them to do skill chains? No they will do what they want. I may not like it but hey it's not going to change.

As for the accomplishment side. I don't know why how someone else levels effects anothers sense of accomplishment. Your accomplishment is your accomplishment. Theirs is not your accomplishment. Your accomplishment hasn't gone anywhere. Let's say I level one way and my man levels another, we both finished getting up there he feels accomplished & so do I. Did I effect his accomplishment just because I leveled a different way? No he still has it & feels it. His doesn't effect me in anyway either. Again this is a matter of Opinion. Just because someone doesn't do something the same way you do doesn't mean its wrong.

Btw my skill chain >>> Magic burst thing really did happen lol. And yes I do think its more fun to do, but I had to take my own advice and say to myself not everyone feels the same way. My friends still do them sometimes though so I have fun with that. :)

So wait, are we right because we won, or won because we were right?

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You're beggin' me to go, you're makin' me stay
Why do you hurt me so bad?
It would help me to know
Do I stand in your way, or am I the best thing you've had?
Believe me, believe me, I can't tell you why
But I'm trapped by your love, and I'm chained to your side


We are young, heartache to heartache we stand
No promises, no demands
Love Is A Battlefield

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Originally Posted by Akujima

So there you go. You won. But not because you are right, but because you are the majority.

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wewt, WE WON GUYS.

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

So wait, are we right because we won, or won because we were right?

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According to Akujima we won because we are more resilient than he is, and we refuse to change. Oh the ironing...