[Dev 1009] Force Pop HNM's FTW

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

ehh maybe on your server.. on siren they are still camped heavily.. even with an average of 700 people online at any given time during NA time


I'll use my previous example i tried to camp adamantoise 4 days in a row a couple weeks back.. so thats about 12 wasted hours.. also during retarded times of the day.. in which i never managed to get claim.

a fifth day of not getting claim wouldn't be unreasonable.. ive been outclaimed many times

so lets say about 15 hours wasted or round it up to 16 hours for the time it would have taken to arrive at the camp each day


During that time you could have spent 16 hours doing magian trials and getting kindred seals at the same time

so a seal drops once every 5 mins .. 50% chance beastmen or kindred so we could say a kindred seal drops about once every 10 mins on average

10 mins * 99 = 990 mins or 16.5 hours... so for anybody camping an hnm and isn't getting a claim more often than once every 5 days this system is far better

Which would seem to be most people at least on my server... the same people always claim the hnm's.. there is always one group who claims behemoth because they are camping Dring

So if for whatever reason you dont want to spend all that retarded time camping hnm's

every 5 days or so of doing random magian trials or exp in non-abyssea are for 2~3 hours a day.. you'd get a 99 orb

doesn't seem overly challenging.....

If thats the hardest part of getting a blackbelt these days i wouldn't complain

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Again some people don't get a seal every 5- 10 mins lol. like I said in my post before I spent my time at Adi killing mobs and was lucky to get the 5-9 seals that I got.

*edited 5-10 mins I was typing to fast lol

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Originally Posted by Camate

Just to clarify some questions that have been popping up regarding these adjustments, KSNM99 BCs will continue to drop black belt-related quest items.

Also, another bit of important information you might like to know, the triggers needed to spawn Fafnir/Behemoth/Adamantoise will be tradeable.

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Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

So all those people complaining they don't have seals, Now have the option to purchase the Pop item too! 1 Less problem.

They'll still complain though

watch them.

Prob with that is not everyone is going to be able to afford the prices though lol. Not complaining just pointing out that its not really something some will look forward too lol.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

So all those people complaining they don't have seals, Now have the option to purchase the Pop item too! 1 Less problem.

They'll still complain though

watch them.

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Being able to purchase the items actually did make this tremendously less of a hassle.. Though you're right, people will still complain.

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Originally Posted by Kindra

Prob with that is not everyone is going to be able to afford the prices though lol. Not complaining just pointing out that its not really something some will look forward too lol.

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I'd say it's arguably easier to farm gil than seals.

Even if it was 7 or 8 days of doing magian trials to get an orb.. it would still be better for the people who are never able to get claim.


2 shots at a blackbelt item per ks99 orb is better than 1 shot from a ks99 orb and 0% chance at kings gear / BB item

Hmmmm i wonder if the the NQ pops will be tradeable, will the HQ king pops be tradeable as well. Sure the fact that he didn't say the HQ pops were tradeable would mean they would be R/E, but its worth a mention.

Please don't think I am saying i hate the update. I am just looking at both sides of the coin. I see how it benifits and I see how it doesn't. Either way it really doesn't effect me in the least lol. I am just trying to point out how some aren't as lucky with KS drops and such and that I can see where they are coming from :).

Like I said if this had been put into place back when they were dominated by HNM shells I don't think there would have been this much dismay over it. :)

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Originally Posted by Khajit

That may be the case with adamantoise currently but Behemoth tended to have 17~ people all CCing me on off days and when late in a KB window I'd see a large section of those old endgame ls still clinging to kings as if they're relevant so I guess me vs 20~30 bots at minimum(assuming only 1 of the old ls is there) not counting the misc people whom aren't in those old ls.

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Yes but the pressure is still easing, the problem was gradually fixing itself. Again, why would they make changes unless they expected the content to become more relevant again?

And sorry I don't usually crystal ball but i'm becoming rather convinced they expect demand for kings to go up post update.

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Originally Posted by Denabond

Hmmmm i wonder if the the NQ pops will be tradeable, will the HQ king pops be tradeable as well. Sure the fact that he didn't say the HQ pops were tradeable would mean they would be R/E, but its worth a mention.

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Well camate only mentioned the fafnir / adamantoise / behemoth triggers as being tradeable

HQ will probably be rare/ex although i think those should be tradeable as well

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

Well camate only mentioned the fafnir / adamantoise / behemoth triggers as being tradeable

HQ will probably be rare/ex although i think those should be tradeable as well

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I Think the idea is wanting players to work for the kings. You can buy NQ, but not HQ. Similar to how in Abyssea you can buy a lot of NQ pops, But you need Key Items for HQ pops.

Again, Its an attempt to create some balance. If they came out and handed everyone a pop on a silver platter the "hard-core" crowd would come and whine they're making the game too easy! (cause you know, Camping an NM that spawned once a day was sooooooooooooo hard. Cry more), Where as, If they made it too difficult, the Casuals would whine its still too hard.

Its harder to create a balance than people think, Too easy, people complain. Too Hard? People complain. Perfect balance? PEOPLE COMPLAIN.

This is why I don't envy MMO Developers. People are whiny ungrateful crybabies no matter what you do to satisfy them. Its like trying to keep a bunch of pre-schoolers happy, It doesn't work. They just keep whining. IT NEVER STOPS.

One of them is thirsty, you give them a juice. Now everyone else wants juice, Even if they're not thirsty, they just want it because someone else got it. (Job Adjustments. Hint hint)

I can live with buying NQ pops and farming a HQ one

Its just a minor annoyance having to go out and pop a HQ for somebody when you could just give them the trigger.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Greatguardian is just trolling because he is not allowed on BG. Anyway, stock pile KS99 is all I can advice you all because we are back to "hard" game.

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What the shit is this? Lol. You're the one banned from BG, not me.

Also, Wiki is total crap for determining the drop rates of something =/. How often do you see people reporting their drop rates? The Hills Are Alive's Drop% for Adamanoitse Egg is based off of only 111 samples. The NQ HNM Drop% for Adamantoise Egg is based off of even less, 105 samples.The people who report their drop rates also tend to be the outliers who have had either good streaks or bad streaks anyways, which will always skew the end result.

As for Rambus, yes I'm talking about the Aspid KSNM. Personally, I've not noticed any difference in drop rates between the 3 and it seems counter-intuitive to have different drop rates for BB items between the 3 KS99s anyways. Say "Nuh uhh" all you want, it doesn't change the fact that I have had a significantly different experience than yours, and that neither of our experiences can be said to be representative of the norm anyways.

In the end though all this comes down to we don't know what the drop rates and such will be. So this argument ove #'s of seals and time and all that may not even be a factor. I think that we should all just wait and see what the drop rates and such will be then go about arguing over it all lol. I do think that this update has its up and downs. But the ups may out number the downs in the end.

Ups that I see : forced pop, only have to fight to trade the ???'s lol. But you are all right at least there is a better shot at getting the items then before :).

Downs : (these depend on what the drops rates are) numbers of seals you have to go through to get to HQ and the drop rates of the pop items on NQ and BB items on HQ. If the drop rates aren't to bad then this won't be a factor at all :)

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

I can start gouging those HNMLS people who've been monopolizing these spawns

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You didn't think that one through, did you? The HNMLS people who've bene monopolising these spawns for the best part of a decade already have all the drops they want from them. The only people you can try gouge are those who were too cheap to buy Black belt items, etc in the first place.

The "Making money from Kings" ship sailed years ago.

People who enjoyed HNMs are in the extreme minority. It is time for that to be phased out entirely.

I wonder if they are going to eventually force pop tiamat / jormy

edit.. vrtra too ;o

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

I wonder if they are going to eventually force pop tiamat / jormy

edit.. vrtra too ;o

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Aren't at least 2/3 of those wandering up at all times anyways? Free Tiamats aren't even that rare any more either.

Amen.

HNM hunting on this game was by far the most boring stupid and retarded game play element, and it's about time it got changed. Wholeheartidly support this change and may Square Enix never ever again subject their players to such torture.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Aren't at least 2/3 of those wandering up at all times anyways? Free Tiamats aren't even that rare any more either.

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Yah.. i've killed tiamat a few times randomly..

would be nice to farm up say a bunch of herald's gaiters or cashmere threads or mercurial poles at the same time

I can't comprehend why anyone would complain about this. Basically, these NMs will appear a little more often, people can get what they need from them and then move on instead of having to camp them for weeks at a time, botting will be eradicated, and the whole experience will be a lot less stressful and more fun. Most people have tons of seals lying around doing nothing, and MNKs will have a better shot at their black belts. You can fight the NMs on your own time instead of wasting up to 3 hours or even more out of every day standing around doing nothing while you camp the NM.

Someone care to give me a logical, rational explanation as to why this ISN"T a good thing?

The NM pops are tradable, and the blackbelt items still drop from the KS99. As far as I can tell, everybody wins.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I can't comprehend why anyone would complain about this. Basically, these NMs will appear a little more often, people can get what they need from them and then move on instead of having to camp them for weeks at a time, botting will be eradicated, and the whole experience will be a lot less stressful and more fun. Most people have tons of seals lying around doing nothing, and MNKs will have a better shot at their black belts. You can fight the NMs on your own time instead of wasting up to 3 hours or even more out of every day standing around doing nothing while you camp the NM.

Someone care to give me a logical, rational explanation as to why this ISN"T a good thing?

The NM pops are tradable, and the blackbelt items still drop from the KS99. As far as I can tell, everybody wins.

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You see Billy, Some people in life are born different from others. Some doctors believe its due to less oxygen... Ah nevermind.

I think most of them simply cannot grasp the concept on how this is an improvement. Most seem to think of in a vacuum. I.E They don't take into account mutliple people after the same NM, they don't take into account this system removes the need for ToD< and allows multiple pops per day, They just try to compare it 1 for 1.

I.E their mind set is "Everyone can do KSNM99 for BB item, and I Can kill fafnir today at a shot for a BB item" in the new system "Everyone can do KSNM99 for BB item, but Now fafnir doesn't drop it! This is a nerf!"

instead of thinking about the new update as, "Now everyone can do KSNM99, and everyone can kill Fafnir for a Shot at Nidhogg, who holds a better drop rate on BB item! This way, Everyone has a shot to kill Fafnir and Nidhogg! Unlike the old system where Nid only spawned once every ~3(?)~7 Days, and both of them could only be killed once per day by 1 group, Now multiple people have the chance to kill them! Regardless of Time of Day, last Death, Etc"

Also, Rather some of them admit it, Its also because They miss the E-peen days of claiming mobs over other people, and then pretty much laughing at those people who weren't fortunate enough to claim. its rather Cynical.

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Originally Posted by RaenRyong

People who enjoyed HNMs are in the extreme minority. It is time for that to be phased out entirely.

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Where'd you get that data from? Your backside?

I think you'll find the casual noobs just cry louder and cry more for what they want. Most of the HNM fans didn't bother to post against a wall of ignorance. That was my downfall.

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

I wonder if they are going to eventually force pop tiamat / jormy

edit.. vrtra too ;o

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Because people camp those NMs, don't they?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I can't comprehend why anyone would complain about this.

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Is it really hard to understand that people don't want to farm Kindred Seals for 8 hours to pop a Fafnir, for the chance at popping a Nidhogg, King Behemoth or Aspidochelone?

They are free popping daily until the next update. Once it hits, and everyone expends their stockpile of Kindred Seals, you're going to wait a whole lot longer, and do a lot more work to be able to kill the NMs which popped every day previously, and are arguably going to be a lot more redundant after the next level increase.

If you can't understand that, then you're a lost cause.

It's not about whether or not people camp them imo

It's more about going out to fight something and not having to wait hours for it to show up...

tiamat is probably the most camped of the group... but some people do farm vrtra to make juogi's

and why leave jormy out >_>

I've seen very few people actually liking and wishing for the old system. Most people seem to be saying, "The old system sucked, and this new proposal sucks in entirely new ways." A punch in the nose might beat a kick in the nuts, but they both still hurt. The old way being ass doesn't make the new deal boy oh boy gonna wet me pants awesome by default, by any means. Karbuncle, you complaining about complaining seems like a half grasp of reality. You get that 300,000 players are going to have 300,000 different(but sometimes overlapping) ideas of what the game should be like, and that people aren't going to keep quiet when something they don't like comes along, yet you act like people speaking their mind is reprehensible somehow. It's reality. You may as well complain that the sun only shines during the day, and why's it got to get so dark at night, anyway. SE isn't going to please everyone. The people who aren't pleased aren't going to keep quiet about it, nor should they. If they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion since SE would have never realised that lots and lots of people loathed the old King system. So quit complaining about the complaining and suck it up, while I try to find my way out of the metaphysical knot in the universe that my complaining about your complaining about people complaining seems to have caused, which is now making my watch run backwards. ... Cool. Yet... disturbing.

That said, the NQ pops being tradable goes a long way to alleviating my concerns about those with few seals or lacking in human resources(at least until HQ pop drop rates are in). I had considered the possibility of tradable pops early on, but thought there was no way SE would go for it. I'm rarely so pleased to be proven wrong. I hope tradable in this case means AHable, so consistent and visible pricing can take place. People tend to get wild ideas about what stuff is worth when they have nothing to compare it to.

Defending ring for everyone \o/

Now if only trotter boots NM were on the list /sad :(

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Originally Posted by AtrixWolfe

Defending ring for everyone \o/

Now if only trotter boots NM were on the list /sad :(

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skadi feet aren't that hard to farm up anymore.. much better than camping simurgh imo

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

skadi feet aren't that hard to farm up anymore.. much better than camping simurgh imo

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Aye I need to find someone to do it with haha

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Originally Posted by AtrixWolfe

Aye I need to find someone to do it with haha

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took about 2 weeks of daily salvage for a group of 3 to get their skadi feets.. thats my experience anyways after salvage update

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Originally Posted by Flunklesnarkin

took about 2 weeks of daily salvage for a group of 3 to get their skadi feets.. thats my experience anyways after salvage update

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Thanks :D Good to have some good info on it.

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Originally Posted by Daremo

I've seen very few people actually liking and wishing for the old system. Most people seem to be saying, "The old system sucked, and this new proposal sucks in entirely new ways." A punch in the nose might beat a kick in the nuts, but they both still hurt. The old way being ass doesn't make the new deal boy oh boy gonna wet me pants awesome by default, by any means. Karbuncle, you complaining about complaining seems like a half grasp of reality. You get that 300,000 players are going to have 300,000 different(but sometimes overlapping) ideas of what the game should be like, and that people aren't going to keep quiet when something they don't like comes along, yet you act like people speaking their mind is reprehensible somehow. It's reality. You may as well complain that the sun only shines during the day, and why's it got to get so dark at night, anyway. SE isn't going to please everyone. The people who aren't pleased aren't going to keep quiet about it, nor should they. If they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion since SE would have never realised that lots and lots of people loathed the old King system. So quit complaining about the complaining and suck it up, while I try to find my way out of the metaphysical knot in the universe that my complaining about your complaining about people complaining seems to have caused, which is now making my watch run backwards. ... Cool. Yet... disturbing.

That said, the NQ pops being tradable goes a long way to alleviating my concerns about those with few seals or lacking in human resources(at least until HQ pop drop rates are in). I had considered the possibility of tradable pops early on, but thought there was no way SE would go for it. I'm rarely so pleased to be proven wrong. I hope tradable in this case means AHable, so consistent and visible pricing can take place. People tend to get wild ideas about what stuff is worth when they have nothing to compare it to.

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I'd take a Punch in the nose (New System), over kick in the nuts (Old System)

Theres the "Vacuum" logic i was talking about. "New system has flaws, and old system has flaws, Therefore This sucks and is a backstep still".

There are variable degrees of "Suck" that most of the vacuum-logic arguments are leaving out. Maybe you didn't read anything outside of my 1 post, can't blame you, long thread, but i've repeatedly said "Yes, This new system has flaws, but it has less flaws than the old system, and offers the chance for everyone to fight said NM. Where as the old system 1NM per day per person/group, No exceptions."

Right now, The Current HNM system falls Somewhere between "Diagnosed with Terminal Disease" and "Hammer to the Nuts", the new system falls between "Punched in the face" and "Forced to watch Sex and the City".

While the new system still is rather flawed, It has less flaws than the old system, ergo, I'll take Sex and the City over Cancer any day. Thats my logic. I don't know what you seem to be reading, but you're certainly not getting the point, at all.


Do i want them to make adjustments in the future to this system? Why yes, Yes i do. 1 being return BB drop to NQ Kings. But would i take this system now as an improvement over the old one? Yes. YES i will, because it IS better.

Hey guys we forgot to say pop are tradable. Haha. So since every newb will see an opportunity to make cash I guess it's a good thing. I guess i will empty my 37 millions on defending ring ¿

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I don't know what you seem to be reading, but you're certainly not getting the point, at all.

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Did you read that whole post you quoted, or stop at the third sentence? The top portion was mainly in regards to your post on page 45.

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Originally Posted by Daremo

Did you read that whole post you quoted, or stop at the third sentence? The top portion was mainly in regards to your post on page 45.

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Third Sentence, Give or take, I think i read the middle paragraph, i skipped your final thoughts, Read about 1 sentence. I'm a skimmer, Bu hey, I thought of something else.

I know you think Maybe I'm just complaining about complaining, but in reality I'm offering my side of the Argument. They offered their side "This update is a back-step" i offered mine "Its not that bad", and continued to have a discussion. by us i mean Me, Pchan, Rambu, GG, and a few others.

I don't think any of them got really mad, and I'm sure they each enjoyed the argument as much as me. The ups, the downs, the frustration, or maybe I'm the only person here who enjoys a heated debate?

So while you may just think of it as "Complaining about complaining about complaining", The majority of us see it as a topic of Discussion. Arguments can become heated, People sometimes lose their temper, But in the end its nothing more than healthy Discussion.

one side will eventually win, one side will lose, or we come to a stalemate. You don't have to read it, You don't have to like it, But these forums people are free to express their opinion (Within forum boundries and rules) to have a discussion. People won't always agree, But what do you expect me to do? They shit all over the update like its ending the world, and me sit back and let SE think everyone feels the same? I refuse.

I'll voice my opinion on the subject, and reply to anyone who disagrees and try to convince them there is a silver light in this update.

Those who adamantly disagree, (Like say, Pchan and Rambus), I'll discuss with, Eventually I'll give up. You can't please everyone, But i'd rather try to show them how good this update can be, rather than sit back and let SE believe everyone feels the way they do.

Edit: You talking about my First post? or Second? Cause I think both of them stand true. But you shouldn't be offended. Its pretty much human nature to want because other people get. Its life that you can't please everyone. I may have worded it "Cynically", I admit, But it doesn't mean its not truth. I do not envy those who make this game. Because i can look at every single update thread ever released in FFXI and see some amount of people complaining about something. Human nature, etc.

I don't care if people complain a little, But excessive "END OF THE WORLD" Complaining is too far. You're free to express your opinion, But when you go about screaming Dooms-day Prophecies and multi-Excessive-Bashing of people who try to disagree with you, its a step too far.

I've crossed that line once or twice out of Frustration, But i try to maintain my cool for the most part. No ones perfect.

Edit: MarkOvPchan Just proved my point. His only argument relentlessly insulting someone. Its why he's been banned from multiple forums. He has what we call "Unhealthy Discussion". Nothing comes from arrogant flaming.

Here's the down side

What about the people who do not have jobs left to level anywhere.. Where do they get the Kindred Seals besides farming easy pray+ for hours on end at a poor drop rate. I would take a week or more to even get half the Seals to do the KSNM

Not really fair when they have nothing to level .. even with the cap going to 95 .. even 100 .. the kindred seal rate they won't get a lot of seals from it

I solod from 1-90 on BST and the amount of BS and KS I got would afford me maybe a 4 go's @ 99KSNM

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Originally Posted by Topdogg

Wow look at all the people cry. I think this is great. Will open up more reasons to exp outside of abyssea for beastmen seals, Would recreate HNMLS's and would seperate the dedicated monks from the abyssea mnks. Good work DEVs!

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Originally Posted by Yopop

Here's the down side

What about the people who do not have jobs left to level anywhere.. Where do they get the Kindred Seals besides farming easy pray+ for hours on end at a poor drop rate. I would take a week or more to even get half the Seals to do the KSNM

Not really fair when they have nothing to level .. even with the cap going to 95 .. even 100 .. the kindred seal rate they won't get a lot of seals from it

I solod from 1-90 on BST and the amount of BS and KS I got would afford me maybe a 4 go's @ 99KSNM

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I understand how you feel, The majority of my jobs are 90~+, and I've only got enough KS for ~4/5 Runs. But the positive is at least its known you can purchase the items too. While everyone won't be able to do the KSNMs, everyone can farm gil.

So they have a choice to farm gil, or farm Kindred Seals. I know its not a great choice, It'll depend on the prices (Knowing FFXI/world, It'll be expensive) but theres always the options.

Some people will be left out of course, the same thing happened in the old system. However this new system opens up more opportunities, even if they're not all for 1 person, it opens them up across multiple people. Rather they have seals saved up, or money saved up.

Or can farm both.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Amen.

HNM hunting on this game was by far the most boring stupid and retarded game play element, and it's about time it got changed. Wholeheartidly support this change and may Square Enix never ever again subject their players to such torture.

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I beg to differ i been playing on 7 years and love camping NM's HNM's for years the friends u make the adrenaline of out claiming the other 50 people there i always loved the hunt and the camp even if the drop wasn't for me.

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Originally Posted by ShadowHeart

I beg to differ i been playing on 7 years and love camping NM's HNM's for years the friends u make the adrenaline of out claiming the other 50 people there i always loved the hunt and the camp even if the drop wasn't for me.

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You think you'd get the same thrill if it was a Lottery spawn? genuine question. Or if the NM itself had a respawn of ~3 hours instead of 21?

I'm curious if people can find a thrill in things if they're slightly more common. I can understand the "awesome" of claiming an NM, I share it too. This is going to show my noob, But when i first clalimed Dark Ixion/Killed it, It was exciting. I kinda hated the group of people crowding around waiting for a wipe (which never happened), But i enjoyed killing it.

But i also felt the same joy when I got my Epona's, or finished my +2THF set. So I'm curious how other people feel. Its good discussions.

Tl:dR - what about it makes you excited ;O?

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Originally Posted by ShadowHeart

I beg to differ i been playing on 7 years and love camping NM's HNM's for years the friends u make the adrenaline of out claiming the other 50 people there i always loved the hunt and the camp even if the drop wasn't for me.

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That stops being fun once you realize bots exist and are being used against you.

I would have preferred if they'd made the triggers like an enm

once every 3~5 days get a trigger free

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Originally Posted by Dazusu

Where'd you get that data from? Your backside?

I think you'll find the casual noobs just cry louder and cry more for what they want. Most of the HNM fans didn't bother to post against a wall of ignorance. That was my downfall.

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Funny how you separate HNM fans from noobs; most HNM players were SHOCKING! I don't know if it happened on your server, but HNMLSs as a whole proved very incapable at Abyssea and generally just threw excessive bodies at things forever, which is all the "skill" HNM ever taught.