Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Then remove all atma AND buffs outside what the job gan give itself. Pets don't benefit from party buffs, which is why you specifically set it up the way you did.

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So you can outmelee unhasted DDs, okay.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Korpg, you aren't qualified to speak for me. You aren't close.

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Be quiet son, the adults are talking now

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

So you can outmelee unhasted DDs, okay.

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^ This. Unless you're competing with a solo WAR, in an area where everyone knows SMN is actually decent (Solo), there is no reason not to have outside buffs.

But guys, a naked Ukon WAR with 0 skill on GA vs a merited Emp Staff SMN sounds fair, right?

Makes perfect sense.

I didn't tell you to stop GG, I just pointed out how you are not interested in "fair." By all means, pretend that the party setup is ever: WAR/SAM SMN/SAM WHM BRD DNC ???.

The #1 fix SE can give pet jobs is allow party buffs to impact pets. You know who said that? Me.

It is a perfectly normal situation. All of those buffs are perfectly sustainable and 100% available to any group that doesn't suck. Whine less.

Buffs not transferring to pets is probably the hugest weakness of Summoner. That does not mean they deserve a handicap or that it can be ignored when doing a serious damage comparison. No amount of b'awww will change the fact that a buffed WAR will tear a buffed SMN to shreds.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I didn't tell you to stop GG, I just pointed out how you are not interested in "fair." By all means, pretend that the party setup is ever: WAR/SAM SMN/SAM WHM BRD DNC ???.

The #1 fix SE can give pet jobs is allow party buffs to impact pets. You know who said that? Me.

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See, his excuse as to why his numbers are wrong, without even having the math wiz guys work the numbers for him.

"Of course it is not fair, because I'm always right and everyone else is wrong and everyone else is against me and skews the numbers in their favor even though its both a generally accepted prinicple and well received by everyone but me, but I'm better than them because I say so!"

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The #1 fix SE can give pet jobs is allow party buffs to impact pets. You know who said that? Me.

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I'm pretty sure you weren't the one who started the "let us cure and buff pets" thread here.

Don't stop, GG. Only Korpg (and any idiot that listend to Korpg) thinks I said SMN can beat Ukon. I want him to have numbers. If you do manage to get the math, I'm going to quickly convert it to Korpg's BP/release style versus melee SMN.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'm pretty sure you weren't the one who started the "let us cure and buff pets" thread here.

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But since he said it now, he must have discovered that 5 years ago, right about the same time as Ducal Guard's usefulness and beating relics out of the water with his super staff skillz.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Don't stop, GG. Only Korpg (and any idiot that listend to Korpg) thinks I said SMN can beat Ukon. I want him to have numbers. If you do manage to get the math, I'm going to quickly convert it to Korpg's BP/release style versus melee SMN.

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In the interest of time, I'll be putting a preliminary run through on Motenten's spreadsheets. What are your gear sets on DDSMN? I don't have any frame of reference to put gear into the calculations.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You don't lose anything... Pet kiting is still your friend; It's not like I threw away my other staves or anything. I can still use it when necessary.

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The only thing you really lose is safety, avatar's have a nasty habit of dying unexpectedly unless you're using tanking atmas but if you're careful it'll work

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

my group usually has me go over to the turtles or hunt the tier 1s to get amber while they farm cockatrice or cats (Was going to say something else, but that's kind of inapproprate lol)

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just lol

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

It's too bad we have someone in here with the mental level below a desk lamp, isn't it?

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I don't know who you possibly could mean

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I didn't tell you to stop GG, I just pointed out how you are not interested in "fair." By all means, pretend that the party setup is ever: WAR/SAM SMN/SAM WHM BRD DNC ???.

The #1 fix SE can give pet jobs is allow party buffs to impact pets. You know who said that? Me.

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and everyone else I've personally been saying pets should get buffs since the day I learned they didn't(back when I was a lvl18 BLM/nothing still learning about the game)

and even then I wouldn't say No.1 because ya know the other jobs still have their extra stats from gear to keep the gap wide enough

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Don't stop, GG. Only Korpg (and any idiot that listend to Korpg) thinks I said SMN can beat Ukon. I want him to have numbers.

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Hi

How are you doing

Hope this is enough for you

Mind you, these are just 3 posts stating that the staff is just under other emp weapons. That is not including avatar damage which basically states that he does more damage than any other emp users.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

In the interest of time, I'll be putting a preliminary run through on Motenten's spreadsheets. What are your gear sets on DDSMN? I don't have any frame of reference to put gear into the calculations.

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he TPs in 23% haste and -38 emnity doesn't use acc/atk food or gear he said so himself but I can't remember what thread

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

In the interest of time, I'll be putting a preliminary run through on Motenten's spreadsheets. What are your gear sets on DDSMN? I don't have any frame of reference to put gear into the calculations.

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Would haste/DA/attack work? 22%/7%/430 (in moghouse)

It doesn't need to be exact. Oh, and Al, here's my thread that Korpg ruined:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ob-adjustments

I’ll be happy to find even older posts/threads from wiki.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

he TPs in 23% haste and -38 emnity doesn't use acc/atk food or gear he said so himself but I can't remember what thread

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If there is a WAR, you can bet I'm not using any -enmity.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Would haste/DA/attack work? 22%/7%/430 (in moghouse)

It doesn't need to be exact. Oh, and Al, here's my thread that Korpg ruined:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ob-adjustments

I’ll be happy to find even older posts/threads from wiki.

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Yeah, I ruined by pointing out your flaws in your argument? Yeah...

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Yeah, I ruined by pointing out your flaws in your argument? Yeah...

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LOL, you didn't even read enough to know that GG is the guy who asked for clarification on the Ukon statement.

Anybody know Garuda's base damage or attack, roughly?

You still stated that the staff alone does what, 7.5% DoT damage less than Ukon? Not including the avatar's damage in that equation?

And yet, you continue to spout that even with Masamune also.....what was it, 4% DoT damage less also?

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Anybody know Garuda's base damage or attack, roughly?

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Between 525 and 575, but that is an eyeball estimate.

He meant weapon D, and yeah that's the problem I'm having right now. I have SMN's personal damage down, I think. Pclaws is easy enough to just average. 4k Pclaws every 45s sound accurate? It's just a matter of tacking on Garuda's physical hits.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

He meant weapon D, and yeah that's the problem I'm having right now. I have SMN's personal damage down, I think. Pclaws is easy enough to just average. 4k Pclaws every 45s sound accurate? It's just a matter of tacking on Garuda's physical hits.

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Without +2 Emp bonus, yeah, 4k is about average.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Anybody know Garuda's base damage or attack, roughly?

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Kegsay did a lot of work.

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Celestial Avatars have 504 attack at Level 75. Carbuncle has more. Fenrir even more.

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Kegsay's work here:

http://kegsay.livejournal.com/5510.html

If carbuncle has higher attack, its base damage must be lower, right? because Carbuncle very clearly hits for less than other avatars.

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Without +2 Emp bonus, yeah, 4k is about average.

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Sounds fair to me, it can spike much higher, and can go much lower if she whiffs.

There's no point in running a comparison. Normally for threads like this, I'd try to favor my opposition's point as much as possible when running a comparison, so they'd be inclined to agree with the results (or at least not have any complaints against them). I can't do that in this situation though, because Summoner has literally no advantages to build on and I don't believe seeing math would change anyone's mind.
This damage comparison is about the best I can do. They just don't have a leg to stand on. If people can't see that, how are they going to read math I do and become convinced?

Here is some more pseudo-math, starting with assumptions:
GA WS Damage = Predator Claw Damage (very favorable to SMN)
GA DPS = Staff DPS (incredibly favorable to SMN, even if SMN has AM3 and WAR has AM1. Double Attack is better than Double Damage because you do twice as much damage and get twice as much TP.)
SMN WS damage = 0
Avatar BP Rate = 1 Blood Pact every 45 Seconds
Avatar DPS << Staff DPS (with Haste buffs as GG proposes, remember that Staff DPS = GA DPS)

Now we can ask, when does:
GA WS Damage * GA WS Rate + GA DPS = Staff WS Damage * Staff WS Rate + BP Damage * BP Rate + Staff DPS + Avatar DPS

GA WS Damage * GA WS Rate + GA DPS = 0 * Staff WS Rate + BP Damage * BP Rate + Staff DPS + Avatar DPS
GA WS Damage * GA WS Rate = BP Damage * BP Rate + Staff DPS - GA DPS + Avatar DPS
GA WS Rate = (BP Damage * BP Rate + Avatar DPS) / GA WS Damage
GA WS Rate = BP Rate + Avatar DPS / GA WS Damage
GA WS Rate = 1/45 + Avatar DPS / GA WS Damage


So, following the assumptions I made above (all pretty incredibly favorable to Summoner), the GA user would need to WS slightly more often than once every 45 seconds (enough to compensate for the Avatar DPS) in order to maintain higher overall melee damage. Hedging for those assumptions, the Ukon WAR could probably WS once every 45 seconds and maintain a higher damage output. With a 6-hit and no Haste in gear, a Ukon WAR gets 100 TP every 50 seconds including WS delay. If you add 50% Haste (Hasso, Haste, gear), they get 100 TP every 26 seconds (again including WS delay). If you add things like GG wanted to add, they start self-skillchaining.

I'm sorry if this is unclear. I tried to show all the steps.



It would be more competitive if it was something like, "Compare Empyrean WAR/SAM and SMN/SAM soloing EP mobs outside Abyssea separately, including downtime." SMN really hurts when Haste comes into the equation.


Anyway, lovers of Summoner, you do your job a disservice by not being honest with yourself about its weak points. You should ask for worthwhile job adjustments that address some of the problems with the job of asking whether you're going to get a new avatar once a week and apparently arguing that your big-3 Staves don't need buffs.

You don't really need to do that. No one here, except for one person, thinks that even the maximum possible damage SMN can output can match or come close to a war with relic/mythic. That's never what it was about, at least for me.

Don't worry Byrth, we all knew the results of the math even without the math.

Only person who was questioning the results is the one who claims that he can out damage Ukon WARs.

EDIT: beaten by byrth, need2refreshmore

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

If carbuncle has higher attack, its base damage must be lower, right? because Carbuncle very clearly hits for less than other avatars.

Sounds fair to me, it can spike much higher, and can go much lower if she whiffs.

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Yeah nothing hurts more than seeing an 600-800 after a 5K predator claws

No, it's about Empyrean/Relic/Mythic staves getting something useful. SMN meleeing, no matter how 'effective' it is, is not a good reason for SE to keep making 'ultimate mage weapons' that suck compared to level 51 craftables.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

No, it's about Empyrean/Relic/Mythic staves getting something useful. SMN meleeing, no matter how 'effective' it is, is not a good reason for SE to keep making 'ultimate mage weapons' that suck compared to level 51 craftables.

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Um, relic and empyrean weapons are far superior weapons to elemental staves. Elemental staves have their own completely seperate purpose and are vaulable items. But it's the elemental staves that suck when you're trying to attack something with them. If you do not want to attack with them, sure the empy/relic weapons suck. That's why we have this thing called an inventory and we have the capability of using different equipment for different purposes.

Aside from that, there are a grand total of two particularly useful melee weapons, the relic and the empyrean, for SMN. (At 75 there was three, but weapons become obsolete easily). I guess some of the other magian trial weapons could work too. They do not "keep making ultimate mage weapons." The mythic weapon doesn't even belong in this category, because Nirvana is awesome for any purpose. It's just almost impossible to get.

Pretty much what Byrth said.

I ran WAR at approx 1,000 DPS (991.803) under those conditions, completely ignoring self-Light damage (which is a ton).

SMN is clocking in at 253.401 DPS without Garuda (this is probably still too high, since I'm just editing a WAR spreadsheet a bit haphazardly), and 342.289 DPS when you add in Pclaws. An Avatar's basic melee hit that isn't receiving any outside buffs (namely, Haste) is not going to have a huge impact on that number. Let's be generous and say it bumps it up to 400 DPS even?

I'll definitely admit to potential hyperbole in saying that a WAR is going to do 5x SMN's damage. But even giving SMN a lot of leeway, they're not doing even half as much as the Ukon WAR.

Nirvana yes, the others compared to ToM staves (which is what he should have compared them to instead imo) no.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Pretty much what Byrth said.

I ran WAR at approx 1,000 DPS (991.803) under those conditions, completely ignoring self-Light damage (which is a ton).

SMN is clocking in at 253.401 DPS without Garuda (this is probably still too high, since I'm just editing a WAR spreadsheet a bit haphazardly), and 342.289 DPS when you add in Pclaws. An Avatar's basic melee hit that isn't receiving any outside buffs (namely, Haste) is not going to have a huge impact on that number. Let's be generous and say it bumps it up to 400 DPS even?

I'll definitely admit to potential hyperbole in saying that a WAR is going to do 5x SMN's damage. But even giving SMN a lot of leeway, they're not doing even half as much as the Ukon WAR.

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The only thing that is important here is that the DPS with player and avatar > DPS of the avatar. Obviously, Dallas is kididng himself if he thinks he can compete with an empy WAR. I could have told you that.

Anyway... a small handful of DD staves amidst a pile of magey staves is not a problem. SMN gets an awesome mythic weapon if by some miracle you can obtain one. I'm not sure what to say about the BLM or SCH mythics though.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

SMN is clocking in at 253.401 DPS without Garuda (this is probably still too high, since I'm just editing a WAR spreadsheet a bit haphazardly), and 342.289 DPS when you add in Pclaws. An Avatar's basic melee hit that isn't receiving any outside buffs (namely, Haste) is not going to have a huge impact on that number. Let's be generous and say it bumps it up to 400 DPS even?

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Namely, Garuda (and only Garuda) can receive haste, so having DPS at 400 seems about right for the situations at hand.

Edit: Misread, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Pretty much what Byrth said.

I ran WAR at approx 1,000 DPS (991.803) under those conditions, completely ignoring self-Light damage (which is a ton).

SMN is clocking in at 253.401 DPS without Garuda (this is probably still too high, since I'm just editing a WAR spreadsheet a bit haphazardly), and 342.289 DPS when you add in Pclaws. An Avatar's basic melee hit that isn't receiving any outside buffs (namely, Haste) is not going to have a huge impact on that number. Let's be generous and say it bumps it up to 400 DPS even?

I'll definitely admit to potential hyperbole in saying that a WAR is going to do 5x SMN's damage. But even giving SMN a lot of leeway, they're not doing even half as much as the Ukon WAR.

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Amazing you attribute all that damage to WAR, not the SMN, DNC, or BRD who provided the buffs.